For PvEers: Why are you against an UAS ladder that does not affect you?

How do you know "hardcore pvp"[sic] are leaving the game? Was the ladder more active 2 weeks ago than now? I don't know, as I'm not really paying attention to the ladder, yet. My guild doesn't have a guild hall, so I don't see much point to it. Which, I suspect, is why the ladder is 'dead', and will remain dead, until guilds get organized and acquire guild halls.

You're basically saying the game was DOA, yet the majority of the players haven't even arrived yet! <-- I have no actual data to back that statement up, it just seems unlikely to me that many people have actually gotten into a guild they like, and have all the materials they need to start competing.

A UAS system won't improve the ladder, because those people STILL won't have guild halls.

Again, i was going under the assumption that guild halls would be available to start in a UAS ladder. The entire point is to give all options to the players to start with.

I have seen CS many times, but no, I have never had an interest in the game. 1 shot kills, twitch controls, and (IIRC) repeated spawning is of little interest to me. However, those are the components that make CS so popular for the mainstream. And that is why that game can be a "something for nothing", while GW could not.

I play GW for the sense of accomplishment. A global guild ladder is not sufficient, for me. Maybe if the ladder had some more structure (divisions & forced matches, for example), that would be enough... but the way the game is setup now, I need the character development to remain interested.

Double post content:

The ladder is dead because people don't have guild halls. Not because they don't have the skills & runes.

I'm all for free guild halls. Maybe have a stipulation that your guild has to consist of at least 8 accounts, to qualify for a guild hall.

I don't think you need all skills & runes unlocked, to compete on the ladder. The game is much better by having some form of character development.

You're entitled to your opinion. Other people disagree, yet are forced to play the game you like for no real reason. That is the entire point of having the dual ladder system, to let people play what they want.

Aug, there are games besides CS like Tribes and many other RTS games (some with very long games such as age of empires) that are popular despite having no grind component. It is a very fallacious argument to assume that a game must have grind to keep people playing. Just the simple fact of competition and cooperation in a team environment in a game with depth is enough to keep people playing.

Aug, I also take issue with your statement that CS is all about instant gratification. In clanplay, there is a large amount of dedication and teamwork involved. I used to think along similar lines as you did before I did a little bit of clanplay and saw CS as quite a bit more. That said, I greatly dislike the gameplay of CS but still respect why people play it instead of simply brandishing it as an "instant gratification" game.

There would be no point to playing the game I like, if the alternative existed. If you had the option of getting $1,000 dollars right now, or $200 a day after you worked for a week, which would you choose?

The two 'types' of the same game can't co-exist. I see no reason why anyone would play the PvE component of GW to PvP, if they could just go straight to the PvP component.

And at that point, I think you'd lose a fair amount of the playerbase after a relatively short period of time without the sense of accomplishment or motivation. Many people derive fun/satisfaction from achievement, not simply 'doing'.

And that, also, is where 'instant gratification' comes into play. There is no sense of achievement in CS. It is what it is. Everyone is on equal footing, and there's really no way to improve yourself. Every game, you are exactly the same. That's both good and bad, depending on what side of the argument you're on. I'm just not convinced (and likely neither is a.net) that a game like GW could prosper with no achievement goals.

you're contradicting yourself. If:

is true then :

Is not true. Which is it?

I fail to see a contradiction. There is no sense of achievement in 'grinding' through hours of content, if you can achieve the exact same thing by pressing a button and waiting half a second.

and how did we get from UAS to assuming a free instant guild hall on top of that?

one question seriously

if anet does not cave in to the hardcore pvp and give an UAS (and runes, upgrades guild hall etc) what are you goint to do about it (you is everybody complaining)

As has been stated before, there are two seperate ladders, one of which will have the achievement inherent in grinding for items/skills and using them to defeat opponents who lack them.

I understand this. But I don't understand how you think this would satisfy the 'achievement driven' portion of the community. There is no achievement by doing X amt of work, when you could've gotten the exact same result doing no work at all.

The only people that would actually play on the "PvE PvP ladder" would be those who wanted to play in an imbalanced environment just for the sake of playing in an imbalanced requirement... which obviously no one but those who had already unlocked everything [that they need] would participate in.

You get better skillwise over time. Many people take satisfaction in scoreboard counts in a pub or by simply competing against others. In a competitive league, you also obtain ranking which is actually a very good hook that keeps people playing. If you ask who would feel special about being #138 on a ladder, I ask you who would feel special about being #5284 who has finally unlocked everything for mo/me. One aspect actually takes ability. The other aspect is almost purely time investment.

Now you understand our logic. Why would PvPers want to play in an arbitrarily imbalanced environment that relies on time investment than player skill?

Aug, I understand your concern with PvE grinding being devalued if one can obtain everything in PvE with a button to compete on an even playing field, but those who grind can still earn through grinding and play with others who have earned through grinding in a dual ladder system. Those who prefer the traditional MMORPG time investment over skill system can do the PvE/PvP ladder while others can play the UAS system.

There is no 'skill' to making 'teh 00bah' template. There is no skill to winning because you are using 'teh oobah' template.

You really do not get this, do you? -curious look-

Everyone has access to everything in the game. Thus, it's a level playing field. This is opposed to a system where someone has an uber character over a gimped pvp template character or some other advantage and disadvantage system. I cannot make this idea any clearer to you.

I was following a similar thread on another message board and it had a humorous ending.
Scroll down to where gimmeUASplz requests Khrysyl for his/her level and general experience with the game. After taking some time to think about the question, Krysyl replied that level doesn't matter and requested that the thread be closed.

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...3&page=6&pp=25

In case you haven't figured it out yet, Khrysyl is anti-UAS. This appears to be a common pattern, where those who oppose UAS haven't completed the game, and those who did complete the game, support UAS. I have no doubt that those who oppose UAS will change their perspective when they actually beat the game.

Actually, it doesn't, and that was the whole point - which once again has gone over your head. It isn't a matter of quality, it's a matter quantity. I mean, what do we know for sure? We know that some people who play the PvE game like to play the PvE game only. So we can assume, based on that fact alone, that the PvE ladder will have less players than the PvP only ladder, and that's assuming it's a 50/50 split between players. That would, of course, increase the amount of PvP players in the PvP only ladder. Is this concept really that hard to grasp?

Furthermore, just because you're repeatedly oversimplifying the issue doesn't mean that you're right, and you have in no way made a point that could even be considered relevant to the issues that I have brought up. In fact, you really haven't said much of anything, besides "blah blah blah, grind, grind, grind, whine, whine, whine," and "PvP is better than PvE."

Quite frankly, having to read the same thing over and over again from you, when it's not even a relevant issue, is just wasting my time. As such, my discussion with you is over. Go ahead and call my arguments "weak" again. That gave me a good chuckle.

I'm astounded.

I see a paragraph of claims that I never made, yet you seem to believe I did. Not once did I make any references to the current majority or minority of character types. I merely said that "I know of many" people that prefer a mix of PvP and PvE. Many could mean 20 people or could mean thousands of people. I intentionally didn't start numbering because it isn't relevant in terms of the thread topic. Your thread asks the question "Why are you against an UAS ladder that does not affect you?" and I answered it. A UAS ladder would split the community, and no matter how a it's implemented, I am going to be inconvenienced in some fashion. That to me, is completely unacceptable, when the game in question, in my opinion, is perfectly fine as-is.

I couldn't care less about the "grind" issues that some of you may have, nor am I concerned as to whether or not you feel that you are level playing field with the rest of the players. I was merely answering your original question from the beginning of the thread. Please re-read some of my earlier posts if this is still somehow unclear.

Everyone in Guild Wars has access to everything in the game, if they're willing to work for it.

The problem here is, you want very much to strike everything after the comma in the above sentence.

I understand that you do not understand why this is a bad idea. What I do not understand is how you expect to sell your idea without ever attempting to grasp why this is a bad idea in the eyes of everyone but you (e.g., ArenaNet in particular).

I'm sorry, but 'because I want it' isn't a good reason. Neither is 'because I don't want to have to do anything other than PvP'. ArenaNet has been more than clear that they intend you to do both. If you really do not wish to do so, I think you know what your options are... don't you?

And what repeatedly goes over your head is that unless 90% of pvpers switch to UAS you'll still be able to find fights in a standard ladder. The only time that ladder becomes useless is when there is no one left to play it - no one finds the base mechanics of it compelling enough to spend the time to equal out the playing field.

This is not a hard concept.

Chuckle all you want, doesn't change the fact your arguments ARE weak.

You can't even understand how the end results you fear directly require what he is stating? Understand your own argument before trying to dismantle others.

This is really funny, people are arguing past eachother, perhaps deliberately. I don't understand any comments about PvE being relevant to PvP experience, PvE in this game is cooperative and PvP is competitive. Perhaps people just project of themselves on their avatar, even though this game isn't really that much about customization and roleplaying. I see it as a fusion of Diablo2 (with less uber equipment) and team-based fps games.

UAS bad thing for ladders? Well they aren't doing anything at the moment when they are tied to PvE so much. Really competitive players WILL NOT PLAY until they can be sure that if they lose it's because they played poorly, not because enemy had some fancy trick you can't duplicate in the future. I bet you'd get lots of activity if there was UAS ladder and cups and leagues. PvE is in the end disposable entertainment no matter how long it takes to complete. Of you want more you gotta pay for it (since PvE content takes much longer time to make that PvP). What annoys me the most about GW PvE is that you need to do several characters from the very beginning to open up enough stuff and skills for PvP. That's bit too much, I don't have to complete several full singleplayer sessions of Halflife2 to get into deathmatch or CS:S part of the game. If you wonder why FPS are often named when competitive gaming is mentioned is because they are oldest type of competitive computer game.

Given the background of these players (and mine as well) you can understand why it feels like a waste of time to churn out several toons. I don't have much attachment to my second and third character, first one is ok but I wouldn't cry my eyes out if it was deleted. Anet should very least make it easier to actually get runes and skills you need (including skill points, it takes longer to aquire skills for character that switched secondary class that just playing new toon from the beginning which makes it quite useless option). I've logged close to 300 hours on the game already, vast majority of the time spend on PvE (1-2% PvP) even though it's quite boring. But no can do, I still need Superior Vigor and some mesmer and elementalist runes, and few more elites (and few regular skills as well) before I can start looking forward to PvP. If I planned on making warrior it would be even more painful with various weapon mods and whatnot.

Zorlag

according to my math that is close to 9+ hours a day average

i have asked this before and since you havent flamed me yet maybe you could answer this

would it be possible to spend a few of those hours doing pvp at whatever present level of readyness you are and have some fun and then some time farming?

i realize it would take longer to get to the goal you have set but wouldnt you have more fun taking a break and playing before more farming?

you will get there eventually but this way you could have fun on the way

is this too different a mindset (not inferior but different) so it if you will pardon the phrase *doesnt compute*?

Yep, I've played a lot. I got this game very soon after Anet put it on online distribution (I bought it online, no box or anything). I had some days with nothing to do so I just played, aiming for Tombs and HoH PvP eventually. You can be sure that if there was option to play PvP straight away with flexible builds I would have. I'm a competitive person by nature and games are my most important hobby. Sometimes I take a break too so I don't end up dead like those korean dudes that played till they died though... I'm not that hardcore. Now did i enjoy playing? Sure, but after 50 hours or so it became more and more goal oriented, some farming and all.

Sure I did play a bit of PvP just to test some skillsets on random arena opponents but organized flexible teamplay is where it is at for me... Plus I didn't have clan to practice with back then. If I want a quick fix of fun I'll go and play UT2k4 Team arena or instagib CTF. For example on iCTF our team 3F is one of the europes best teams, this year we played on Clanbase Eurocup which is the tourney for that gametype. It's decent fun on publics too.

Oh god, separating the community into UAS and PvE/PvP ladders would kill the PvE. People won't bother with the PvE, and the whole world ArenaNet created would go to waste. Do you people seriously think ArenaNet would do this?

[QUOTE=Zorlag] Sometimes I take a break too so I don't end up dead like those korean dudes that played till they died though... I'm not that hardcore. QUOTE]

thanks

i was curious

You PvEers do realize that the PvE missions are not the primary problem to PvPers, right? The main problem is having to go out to the exact same area in a Diablo II-esque fashion repeatedly over and over again to get an elite skill or farm for runes and weapon mods. I just cannot fathom how anyone could believe that that is a game mechanic worthy of praise, but here we are.

It's the way things are done. Sometimes they are more cleverly disguised (e.g., the process is more interesting), but usually this is not the case for new games.

There is a difference between a 'grind' and a 'time sink', by the way. A grind is a repetitious process, a time sink is a required investment of time to reach a specific end. Here, the two are somewhat combined as the required method is restricted both by necessity to kill the same things over and over to get the reward (grind) because the ratio of rewards to attempts is high (time sink).

This also is something a lot of game companies do initially, and almost always wind up toning down the time sink portion of things after their launch has stabilized (read: they've met the marketing forecast and can afford to loosen up the bottleneck a bit).

Frankly, I fully expect drop rates to increase with time because that is the usual means by which game companies support things like multiple accounts per player and maximum characters per account.

Prediction #1: Six months from now, this will be a non-issue for this chapter, both because drop rates will be significantly increased and enough people will have stayed and played enough to introduce ready supplies of all runes and upgrades to the economy.

Prediction #2: There is a segment of the playing populace that will see this tactic of managing the playerbase repeated with new chapters and will complain each time, never understanding the cyclic nature.

Prediction #3: Those who lack the insight to understand the method or the patience to wait it out will be gone by then.

Prediction #4: The furor on the forums will not be missed. (grin)

So you're saying it's a mechanic companies such as a.net incorporate do to retain the playerbase and somehow add more sales. They don't have a monthly fee, so I don't think this argument holds as well.

From a gameplay perspective, you have yet to prove it's not an awful gameplay mechanic.

I'm saying it is normal for the industry, demonstrably so. If you have played more than five MMOs in your playing history, you should know what I mean.

I have no obligation to satisfy your need for 'proof', especially when you demonstrate time and time again that you are either unwilling or unable to accept simple realities like 'There is more to be considered in a game's design than how long it takes to unlock all available skills and upgrades.'

My last post was an attempt to soothe some of what is rapidly approaching hysteria on the matter. You are under no obligation to understand it, but I think you would be less frustrated while you are playing if you did.

Do you really want to have people who don't want to be PvEing in your groups? I'd say PvE would be much better if the groups were made entirely of people who were playing it for fun rather than just to get it over with ASAP. There are people who drop after getting an elite they need or finishing a bonus, leaving their group a player down. This problem would not exist if those people didn't need to join your group to get those elite skills.

If it takes you 5 hours to get a single elite skill, I pity you. I got 3 last night, while getting an extra skill point for my last elite, in 6 hours. No matter what happens, if they give you UAS, if they give you a guild hall, there will be something you (meaning all the "grind" complainers) will find to bitch about.

This isn't a MMO, though. So your point is already moot, but for the sake of arguing...

Even if this was an MMO game it wouldn't (and doesn't) need this type of gameplay, simply because it doesn't have monthly fees. Those MMOs that you refer to have this "grind/timesink" gameplay because of the addictive nature that they have.People see the gameplay after the "grind" as a carrot dangling from a string. This "carrot" is impossible to get to, but the people continue to play and pay for the game month after month in an attempt to finally get to the fun gameplay after the "grind". But since Guild Wars does not have a monthly fee, these mechanics are not only unnecessary, but they are actually detrimental to the game. (This is because the more people play the more costs are accrued that are not paid for by monthly fees.)

I finished the game. 25 days old. 600,000+ exp. Finished the final mission 2 times once with other players and once with all hench. I am Level 20 with most skills unlocked for warrior, monk, mezmer, and necromancer and all but 1 or 2 elites unlocked for War and Necro. Most majors and all but 1 superior rune still remain LOCKED. My teams have no problem being competetive in ToPK and unless the others are very coordinated usually stand no chance at stopping us. My guild has won the hall, have our guild hall, etc.

If ANET gives in to the whining, so called, "competetive PvP'ers" and installs a UAS system I will never log back on again nor will I buy any expansion.

There IS NO GRIND in this game. You DO NOT need every ****ing thing to be unlocked to be "competetive'. Unlocking all the elites and superior runes may give you maybe...a 5% chance to win over a equal team with all the same skills and gear excepting those. it does not dictate winning or losing. You are simply trying to come up with excuses to get your own whining ways, over the non pvp'ers/pk's, which is no different then the "hardcore pvp" communities I have experienced in any other online game in my long online gaming career dating back to the golden days of Multi User Dungeons.

It is too an MMO

Massivly - yup how many people on at any given time? Massive
Multiplayer - even if theres only 2 people, it's multiplayer
Online - duh

Not arguing for or against, just pointing out it is an mmo.

I was referring to the genre and not what the actual words mean. (Going by the words only, I agree that this is a MMO.)

Edit: fixed a grammatical mistake

Yeah ok gotcha. Yeah this is pretty much in it's own category. Prolly best just to call it as Anet did, CoRPG style.

Dumachum, what is your /age time and how much would you say your proportion of time spent in the game was devoted to farming. I seriously doubt you have all superior runes for those classes but one unlocked unless you have over 500 hours of solid playtime.

I have nowhere near 500 hours of playtime logged. Less then half that. And I only started "farming/grinding", however you choose to refer to it, 3 or 4 days ago and thats just buying skills by changing my secondary. Already have a set of 15k armor all gotten within the last few days. In 1999, 1 month into Everquest, I believe I was maybe level 20-25 and just starting to explore Cazic Thule as a server first in plain banded mail. You cannot even compare "grinding" to anything present in Guild Wars at the present time.

Ok, I don't really care about the rest of this topic as I'm sure it's filled with crap I've read a katrillion times.

Just to clarify though, you do NOT need all your superior runes to be competitive in PvP, in fact many times it's good NOT to have superior runes. The health decrease of them evens it out so that someone who doesn't have them can still take you down and what not. It does NOT take 500 hours to get the skills you want for a character and to get the appropriate runes. If you're looking to find superior runes of every one of your attributes, maybe, but this is a waste.

I need a drink.

Alpha and beta PvPers almost unanimously agree that superior runes give an undeniable advantage over those who do not have such runes, and thus they are necessary to remain competitive. Also, having more superior runes (than just simply for one single class) means you can switch classes when needed to fulfill a role much more easily and makes your guild more flexible. You have to remember that the minor health disadvantage is offset by the massive amount of healing that goes on during a match. 75 health is a drop in the bucket in the thousands of health you are potentially healed for. The amount of damage or healing you do by those added attribute points will easily go over 75 points of healing or damage.

Cut from a reply by alex weeks at TGH:

No grind, huh?
http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...9&page=5&pp=25

You're right Air, but you can't refill health points that aren't there in the first place. I do by all means agree, one, MAYBE 2 superior runes can do some good, but that's a maybe, because that's over 100 health down the train, about 1/5 of your would-be total. If you have 3 attributes and have 3 superior runes, one for each, that's a decent amount of health down the drain, and sure you can add one of superior vigor to even that out, but you're still missing over 100 'eh? And 100 health points, about 1/5 of your life, can be the difference between life and death. I personally just find that, I can either get about 10-15 extra damage on my skills (using a death magic attribute of say going from 12-14, or I can keep my health. I personally like my health. Then again, being a necro, health is important to me, and I am RARELY the target for our monks, so I suppose it all really depends on what character you're playing and how you play it that decides what you'll need and what you won't need.

Valid point I suppose, more speaking from personal tastes I guess is what I'm doing.