For PvEers: Why are you against an UAS ladder that does not affect you?

That's just plain ignorance right there. Just because your winning means you can't say the games unfair? What the hell? Are losers the only people with rights now?

I haven't seen Hope and Glory win HoH. You don't want to mess with the wrong people in ego.

No it doesn't. Content matters.

Why? Because I made a general statement? Who ever said I had to make a whole post reply to only you? Your not special, that's Spooky ...Spooky ELECTRIC. ZAP!

I know, it was humour. Didn't follow?

Sarcasm please.

Dude, that's hitting below the belt. Don't doubt their skills, they obviously learned from PVE how to win tombs before beating their mirror. Because they claim to know what is balanced and what is not like it's the physics of the world.

EDIT: No more posts, THX asked so!

Uh huh... And how many people in this thread have fallen to their knees and tearfully embraced all of your ideas, as a result of your skillful pinpointing of their "logical fallacies" and constant use of "^^" smilies?

Maybe I've tried out your methods, and experience has taught me what people respond best to. Let's not make assumptions.

Haven't you ever heard the phrase "taken out of context?" Knowing who said it so you can refer back to it and see the context is extremely important. The context is part of the content.

You quoted me and then directly replied to me in that series of dialogue. You were replying to me ~_~

It's a wierd blend of sarcastic humor if that was what you were going for, Xellos ^^

DarrenJasper, I genuinely believe certain people have understood more about the other side than would be otherwise possible if I had simply resorted to a constant 8 page barrage of flaming. I also think those you flamed would not have flamed you back so quickly in return if you hadn't flamed in the first place.

Hey, that's great! But what you genuinely believe doesn't prove anything, so as far as either of us know our methods are both equally effective. I genuinely believe that my posts were more than a "constant 8 page barrage of flaming" even if you don't. Which of us is right? There's no telling.

And I like it when people respond promptly, I lose less momentum that way.

Eh. We'll agree to disagree at this point. Time will tell ^^

If your going to put perspective into play, this arguement can take hours. Do you really want to go there?

What? How does that work. I simply quoted you, and replied to you in a way that satired the way Virtago would've with a metaphor.

I'll admit the joke flew above my head ^^

I still believe you're underestimating the importance of context.

I doubt it, but whatever.

I think we're done here anyway, unless this thread gets a resurrection in the morning.

Just noticed this... kindly note I said the behavior was childish. Not the people. If someone chooses to self-identify, that's entirely up to them. Folks like Jasper (who happily sits in the ignore corner due to his inability to maintain any form of mature discussion) do not bother me, and those who insist on rabidly foaming and attacking those with whom they disagree are doing more to ruin their credibility by over-reacting and being overly-negative than they realise -- all the while exemplifing precisely the attitude and behavior that ArenaNet is starving by making PvP players hunt up their own skills and upgrades.

As to the rest, someone assumed because I disagree with them, I "obviously don't know anything about PvP". They are wrong. Not only do I know PvP, I knew it very likely before most posting here knew it, when it really was worth enjoying... back when people didn't whine when they didn't get their way.... hell, they didn't whine at all.

You didn't see the stupidity of 'smack talk', because people respected one another and had a fundamental grasp that you don't grow the herd for slaughter by running off players, by insisting on being max skill immediately, and by laying in the proverbial floor kicking and screaming if you don't get it NOW NOW NOW.

I applaud ArenaNet for building a game where people who have never PvP'd don't feel they can never learn it. The arena teams (4 on 4) are wonderful for learning the ropes in a way most PvP players of today simply lack the foresight to support.

I applaud them as well for putting 'King of The Hill' in place for the folks who prefer number crunching to experimentation, and who don't expect anything more from their game than the chance to test themselves against all comers.

I applaud them for permitting cookie cutter templates and still giving people an opportunity and avenue to do something outside the cookie cutter if they're willing to invest the time and effort into pursuing a different setup under the same rules as the rest of the game utilizes.

What I hear when I read all this whining is that most players want cookie cutter templates, but they also want everything available at once. And that just wouldn't support the cross-over from PvE that ArenaNet obviously intends.

What boggles me is that everyone who has posted screaming for UAS can't seem to understand that it isn't in ArenaNet's best interest to segregate PvP any more than they have at present. Until those of you wanting more than what you have now understand this, really understand it, you're doomed to be frustrated. To break it down for you:

ArenaNet intends this game to provide PvE players the chance to cross-over PvP without having to feel like once they've tried it, they're stuck with it for good. They didn't design a PvP game. They designed a PvE game with optional PvP, and rankings for those who engage in it more than occasionally.

"PvP for PvE players" is a much greater possibility in this game than in any other I've seen... and this is precisely because everyone knows that we're all operating under the same ruleset. You take this away and you lose every bit of that.

Not only this, it is a means by which to insure that those who are avid or 'hard core' (read: time, not type) players cannot possibly exhaust all the content before the intended time frame for expansion.

Simply put, the design is one that serves both as a balancing factor against content exhaustion and to offer players who have never considered PvP a slower and less risky avenue to try it. Very smart business.

Now I fully realise most PvP players simply do not care about this kind of thing, but thankfully, we've got ArenaNet acknowledging every step of the way that this is INTENDED. I view this as A Good Thing.

My *personal* opinion is that the playing community as a whole will benefit from having to PvE to get skills and upgrades. Because in order to succeed on EITHER side of the preferential playing style 'fence', you have to be more involved in being part of the community. We're all familiar with the stereotypical PvP player and I think it was incredibly insightful of ArenaNet to put in place a mechanic that single-handedly eviscerates it as a method of operation.

So I suppose the answer to the initial question, "Why are you against a UAS ladder that does not affect you?" is simply this:

I am against it because, whether it is realised, understoood, or accepted, it would affect the overall quality of the game along with harming its ultimate longevity, which would very much affect me as a fellow player.

@AirOnG -- First, dang your hide for drawing me back into this thread. (grin) Secondly -- Your points on etiquette are well taken. If you would consider that the things you infer may not be intended by their writer, it would help as well.

@Hostile Contributors -- Thank you for changing my mind about my own suggestion to make skills 'lootable' from defeated opponents in PvP matches. The process of forming my thoughts here finally convinces me that the way things currently are is as they should be, and I would not have contemplated it this deeply had some of you not been as overtly hostile. Should the matter ever come to poll (doubtful), I'll vote accordingly.

Ho ho, I guess that's what happens to everyone who strikes a nerve. Storm off in a huff (twice), come back later putting the offender on ignore so that she can spout the same rhetoric she did hours ago, and pretend to be unchallenged. Welp, don't let me get in the way

That would be fine, we all accepted we would have to go through pve

but not 500+ hours of PvE, when there is only 100 hours of straight content, that is like 5x repetition.

We don't mind going through the game, but we dont like beating it 6x to play.

Most people will be "turned off" by this as you can see on forums, just a small portion of the unhappy crowd.

Why is it not required of PvE players to play PvP? Wouldn't this increase PvP? Well maybe they dont like to, forcing players to play PvE over and over is stupid. Most of the time they bypass this by going straight to ascend at lvl 3 so they dont even contribute to the "overall playing experience".

Your logic seems sound but there is NO REASON for forcing players to play what they dont want to for hundred of hours to get to what they consider fun.

Also your idea of community is a bunch of screaming children on average.

I don't have the time or the patience to respond to the rest of your post, but I found that the game's synopsis doesn't support this line of thinking at all.

Ahah. That's the most hilarious thing I read in the whole forum. Sounds like "hey kid, enough now! go to bed!". Too bad this will make his gladiatorial efforts to "quote-kill" people even more ridiculous and out of place.

Now, that's what I call some fresh air.

(sorry for the OT)

I agree with BeIDac, but I still have my personal idea. PvE to get Elite Skills, Runes and rare drops alike is fine to me, but shouldn't be as it is now. It should be compelling, and shouldn't make you feel as if you're repeating the same thing 5000 times. New areas (dungeons maybe?) and some more clever design (aka "not to make the bosses spawn randomly") could make it far more interesting. Why not raising the difficulty bar in some particular PvE zones? That would make PvE fans happy and the quest for Elite Skills challenging.

Of course that must be done cautiously, but I'm convinced it can be done somehow.

I sincerely doubt our little guild will be winning HoH anytime soon, if ever. But I can promise you this. If we lose, we won't be here crying about it, asking that the game be changed, or blaming arenanet because we lost.

Hell it would be nice if they added a boss from each or at teh minimum half of the primary classes in each area to cut down on the skill gaining.. But I also agree that you are going to need a faster way to get skill points even then.. and if the amount of xp required is streadily growing each "level" after 20, they are going to have to do something to give people a faster way to get the skill points.. either that or stop requiring a skill point be spent on a SoC.

Anyone who complains about GW's PvE obviously hasn't played any other MMOs. The PvP only templates attest to the fact that if you don't want to do a very minimal grind to be marginally better than another player (in comparison to most MMOs), you don't have to.
Edit: Basically, if you got GW so you wouldn't have to spend time getting better, then use the templates.

I got GW because the PVP was awesome.

The PVP sucks with templates and the stupid grind barrier. People are already bad enough, why gimp them more.

Also there is a lot more to a game then that. You have character attachment, its hard to have any gratification running a premade. It would be like playing MTG without choice in cards or the ability to pay for more decks vrs players that can.

Also there is a lot to learning the game that you really don't get from premades, there is a lot more to the game then the premades offer, such as a real mesmer!

The UAS ladder is an idea with good intensions, but will cause more harm than it will good to ONE of the two communities. The reasons for this have been explained over and over so I feel no need to repeat them. The game was built around PvP but everyone knew that PvE would be just as important. If you didn't know that, it is your own fault because NO WHERE does it state that you don't have to PvE.

I do believe there can be some modifications to the skill system that will help level the playing field. One idea is that you should be able to buy ANY skill you want from the skill trainers (with exception of the ones that need to be captured) so you can get the skills you want.

Another idea is that once you complete all the missions, you get all skills (except captures) unlocked automatically for that character's primary and secondary professions.

Off the skill topic, it would also be cool to have some of the runes unlock able through quests.

Any comments?

Agreed. I spent tonight in HoH on a mesmer and had a blast. I think my group was purple with amazement that I didn't care if I died. Heh. The monks on the other teams feared me with good reason, and in the end we held until our tank and monk had to head out for the night.

With this said, I would hate to see someone trying to learn a mesmer straight off a template or even a UAS. There are things to know that you just don't learn reading someone's guide.

And for what it's worth, I feel your pain about feeling you're having to do 5x the work to get a reward... but in all honesty, I ripped the place apart tonight with nothing more than my lil level 12 mesmer/monk had available and my PvP build is mesmer/elementalist.

Which, I think, speaks to the reality that spending some time on PvE is not a bad thing for anyone.

Be|Dac, I would be very interested in hearing what you think would be a legitimate compromise solution, friend. You seem less inclined to the inciteful and therefore, I think, more inclined to be insightful.

@Quintus -- PvP competition doesn't mean someone can't be better than you, does it? Whether than means they have more time to spend on the "pve grind" as some are calling it or otherwise.

One aspect of this that bemuses me is this is, in theory, no different than the reality that raiding guilds in a PvE MMO are much more likely to gain better gear, more money, etc. simply because they have more time to invest in pursing it.

The 'complaint' as I understand it thusfar (excepting Be|Dac's post) isn't that too much time is required, but that ANY time is required.

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, please.

Redfang, I hope you come away from this argument understanding we are not blaming arenanet or whining them to change the gameplay due to lack of ability. It's simply for a level playing field.

Virago, I think you are doing many PvPers a disservice by making it seem PvPers simply want ubercharacters and claiming they have a "NOW NOW NOW" mentality. PvPers simply want a level playing field without having to do things they perceive as completely arbitrary barriers. You do however make a very good point that segregation of PvP is a very important thing to consider while making decisions, and that consideration of the community as a whole is crucial. Perhaps you are right in that a dual ladder system would be detrimental in splitting the community and that it would be better to err on the side of caution.

I'd think many would disagree on that count ^^ Many would contend the game was built with PvP in mind first and the PvE then integrated with it.

I do not see how many PvP compromises takes this aspect away at all.

I think PvPers would generally disagree with you on exactly what good content is. The current game grind involves repeating the same content many times repeatedly. I understand your argument of it preventing content exhaustion by artifically increasing hours logged. I do agree that it can somehow increase the longevity of the game for those who actually enjoy grinding and getting that advantage/edge, but I think it puts off way more players than it gains or holds. I really do think there are more PvPers both casual and hardcore who do not like farming than people willing to put up with the farming.

I take issue with this statement. You are claiming that it is a good thing that Guild Wars has incorporated a significant grind for PvPers even though PvPers do not want it. I say it is for PvPers since PvPers are the one who will do the grind the most. I do not expect PvEers to do uninteresting aspects of the game over and over. The PvE mission content is fine IMO, but farming for runes, elites, and weapon mods is not fine in its current state and is a very flawed gaming mechanic.

We'll agree to disagree. I actually think the PvP community will be far healthier in the long run if there is less grind than there is currently.

I think the most optimal solution is the ability to obtain weapon mods, skills (elite and nonelite), and runes purely through PvP in a reasonable timeframe. It maintains the mechanic of "earning," doesn't cause a massive schism in the community, and doesn't force people to do aspects of the game they do not want to. Do you see anything wrong with this, Virago?

AiRong, I put this suggestion up here a little while ago, but it got swept away by the anger, so I don't know if you saw it:

"The way I see it, characters should be able to unlock skills in pvp. Perhaps for every 5 wins you get (not consecutivly), you get a skill point that you can use to unlock a skill for the pvp characters. However, to balance it, maybe there's a ladder in the skills you have to follow, a la Diablo 2 style, and you can capture elites from other players."

Would this be more acceptable?

If one can eventually unlock everything in the game through some method purely by playing PvP in a reasonable timeframe, then I'd be perfectly content. Such a system would be the best compromise that I've seen so far.

The largest PvE investment a PvP character should ever have to make through whatever proposed method is to simply finish the campaign with one character.

I think elites should remain as is... they're supposed to be 'elite', hence, rare.

Also, I would disagree that permitting access solely through PvP would support the community balance. There would be no reason whatever for a PvP player to care about anyone doing PvE if they didn't have to work with them to gain what they need.

Why is this important? First and foremost because that is what community is about... working with others toward common goals. That definition doesn't get much more 'spot on' for how things currently work (even if some guilds would rather make farming characters than consider actively seeking out PvE players to work with...).

Secondly, because the dynamic of interaction between PvE and PvP players is the method that draws PvE players TO PvP. Think about it... you go out hunting elites... you're grouped with folks who are usually PvE, probably either have no interest in PvP or are polarized on the matter. You, as a PvP player, every time you interact with that side of the world, have the chance to change that... to interest 'fresh meat' (for lack of a better term).

From what I read here, there is heavy implication that the folks speaking out for PvP only unlocking or UAS just don't want to 'be bothered' with 'carebears' and frankly, I think that is the attitude that is out of place and counter-productive and reminds me of the 'Great Holocron Grind' and a few other dim moments in the history of meetings between PvE and PvP.

As for the rest -- define 'reasonable timeframe'. I'll spot ya my definition -- the average amount of time it takes the median amount of PvE players to obtain their full set of Elites and Runes/Upgrades.

The power PvEers will shave that pretty respectably, but I suspect it would still be too slow for what most here (forums) would like to see... however, it would be a good compromise without completely segregating the two from one another.

They won't be rare. People will simply grind for the ones they want with an RP character before they PvP, and you'll see them all over the place. I do admit elite farming is not half as bad as weapon mod and rune farming that you have almost no control over. You also have to keep in mind that "elite" is just a label to differentiate a class of skills. They could've called them "only one of these types of skills can be in your slotbar" skills and it would mean the same thing.

Why should a PvP player be forced to do something he does not want to do? I do not think forcing a player to do something against his will is beneficial to the community. If you believe there needs to be interaction between the two camps, won't the constant HoH messages and crossover PvE/PvP players fulfill the role of interaction between the two?

I would want the PvP obtainment system to be comparable to PvE grind. However, the current PvE grind is far too long. Superior drops are exceedingly and unnecessarily rare and very ennui-inducing to obtain. I'd venture to say it would actually take over five hundred solid hours before one could get all superiors and elites for just a single class combination based on estimations of people on these forums.

Well, my suggestion doesn't say you HAVE to pvp to get the skills. You can unlock them the same with PvE, but this would allow PvPers to grow their characters in the way they want, the same as PvE'ers. I don't think people would hate the grind of getting them as much if they could get them doing what they want to do.

Also, maybe make it so you can "loot" other epoples armor. They don't loose it, of course, but if you kill someone who has a rune, then you get the chance to unlock it from them.

Virago, this would keep the PvP and PvE communities interlinked, like you want, and still allow players to grow in pvp and avoid PvE which is more like what they want, instead of a UAS.

As for reasonable timeframe, for armors and elites, it would depend on who you were fighting, and how good you were. 5 wins for a skill point, if your good you could unlock your skills quite quickly. If you suck, then, a little longer. Once again, that would be skill based, which I think is closer to what the PvPer's want than what your willing to give them Virago.

ALL games make you do things 'you don't want to do' and usually because the design mechanic somehow supports either community, longevity, or revenue stream.

Succinctly -- the reason a PvP player should be forced to do something they do not want to do is because that's the way ArenaNet wants it.

Probably not the answer you wanted to hear, but it is a true answer.

No, and that's my point. The PvP folks should be more a part of things than 'oh look, there's [guild xyz] winning again' or something you meet only after moving to PvP areas. Integration, not segregation... and that means movement in BOTH directions and this is something the current system supports very well.

Edit: The trip to the searing was a surprise for me, because it introduced a completely unavoidable PvP session. I understood this was to give players who might avoid PvP completely and with deliberation a chance to experience it, but it annoyed me that it was, in fact, unavoidable.

I think the real issue here is 'choice'. PvP players dislike not having the 'choice' of UAS. But in all honesty, freedom of choice is not what these games are about, are they? (I'm not trying to be flippant, just pointing out this is reality.)

@Jackell -- You're pretty much in tune with my original suggestion found here.
At the time I posted it, no one was willing to admit it was a viable compromise. Finally -- 'what I'm willing to give them' is not the point. I'm not in power or control here. I'm just voicing my opinion like everyone else.

I know your not in power or control or anything, but so far you've been very vocal against their opinions.

As for "all games making you do what you don't want to do", this one can be different. Why let it fall into the same trap of that, when they can make it so that people can do what they want?

Anet may want it this way, but with their weekly updates and ideas that they've implemented, they seem to want to make sure their players get the most out of their gameplay experience. Despite what people beleive, they are listening.

Not against their opinions, just equally vocal about my own. It isn't an attempt to 'win' here, simply an attempt to see if anyone is actually interested in understanding the other side.

In all honesty, thusfar, there is very little such interest on display. That is, I think, part of the problem. You see, I understand why people want UAS or PvP only unlocking or whatever variant is being discussed at the moment.... but I have yet to see a single poster on the 'Pro-UAS/whatever' side of the discussion even give credence to the notion that there is something more important than UAS/whatever.

Before any discussion can truly proceed, both sides must accept that the other has a point of validity in their own perspective. At the moment, for the most part, that hasn't really happened here. It's just more and more folks trying to tell me all the reasons I'm wrong or don't understand them.

If you want to see what reactionary change does to a game, just look to EQ I.

I don't like everything I see in GuildWars. But for the most part, I accept the reasoning I see behind it. It is their sandbox, their rules, and their decision, and that's cool by me.

EQ 1 did it wrong. In any chance like that, there's always risks that could make or break a game. If done right, this could enhance gameplay for all. And yes, their sandbox, their rules. But they are more than willing to change them, hence why they read the suggestion forums.

As for their arguments, this is a game, and their argument is "I would like this because it would make the game more fun to me". And, most of the time, that's good enough for me. A game is made for fun, and Anet wants it to be fun for everyone they can make it for. So, that argument in this case holds validity in my eyes.

I ride the middle ground in this debate. I enjoy PvEing for a little while then finishing up my day with usually the same amount of time in the arenas, and when I get back into a guild, doing some GvG, so this is a hard topic for me. But other people want a change, and with it being this well argued, a need for a little compromise on both sides is going to be needed to create a good change. If it's this important to so many people, Anet is looking into it, but, and this is just what I'm thinking, I do not in any way speak for Anet, they probably won't make a decision if both sides of the argument is this deadset about it. It would piss off one entire group of gamers, and they don't want that.

well anet have said that uas button were for bwe only, and i see no reason to argue. I'm mainly pve'r. but seriously, I think it would be easier not to mention quicker to pve for the stuff that they want for pvp than fighting 10 very good guild groups that hold the top 10 on the ladder to get SOMETHING and that's not even guaranteed. I say let the runes come when they come.

Here's a scenario.

Player buys Guild Wars on release day. Player wishes to explore all facets of gameplay, and ultimately decides to experiment with various characters in the coming weeks. Player later creates 4 characters, each with various primary and secondary skill sets, designed for unique builds and gameplay.

Player also frequents in tombs PvP as well as regular PvE, with two of his max level PvE characters, after they have completed the story mode. Player likes his balance between PvE and PvP.

Somewhere down the line, an individual PvP laddering system is implemented for both PvE and PvP characters. This system segregates both PvE and PvP characters, requiring them to play with characters of the same type. Player is now not only limited in terms of sheer availability of groups, but also cannot compete in the primary PvP ladder, unless he chooses to delete one of his characters. Player successfully becomes "affected" by the situation.

I've read through most of the posts in this thread, and only maybe 1 or 2 people have seen the big picture here. I know of many who play GW for both the PvE and PvP aspects, myself included. I enjoy going through the PvE game, exploring, capping a skill or finding a rare item, and then hopping into the tombs and competing in organized PvP. I do this with two of my four PvE characters, and while I don't have every single rune or every single elite skill, my builds have become extremely effective after some fine tuning and experience.

Problem is, no matter how the OP's concept is implemented, I'm still going to get screwed over in some fashion. And to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't like having my gameplay experience tarnished because a couple of whiney players couldn't learn how to adapt or move on and play another game.

I mean, even if I didn't have all 4 of my character slots used up, I would still have to take the time to build a PvP character from scratch to compete in serious PvP, despite the fact that I have 2 perfectly functional characters already created and customized. That in itself is an annoyance that I shouldn't have to deal with, so imagine how I feel about the concept of deleting a character just to allow me to play how I used to.

So, that's why I'm against an UAS ladder that doesn't affect me. Because it really does, and you just didn't know it until now.

Fallacy here. You're only affected because you want to fight the people in the UAS ladder. The pve ladder still exists in full force. The proposal doesn't change any of the current abilities in GW for pvers. Yes the community is split, but one is only 'primary' if the vast majority of the population uses the option. If the vast majority of people use the UAS ladder, that implies that

is wrong and thus your entire argument falls apart.

Why would you have to create a new pvp character from scratch? You'd be level 20 immediately with all your stat points and access to all skills and weapons and armor. It's instant.

That is assuming there is a UAS system.

Well said, you are my hero.

An UAS ladder would dramatically reduce the number of PvP groups and challenges open to those who enjoy PvE AND PvP, which is a lot of players.

And why exactly wouldn't the vast majority of PvP players play PvP in the PvP (UAS) ladder? I mean seriously, if you expect any human being with the slightest bit of brain power to believe that a PvP only ladder wouldn't have any more PvP players than a PvE only ladder, then let me know now, so that I may immediately disregard your future posts, in the hopes that I will no longer be subjected to further insults to my intellegence.

It's the customizing of the skills and points that's just an annoyance that I shouldn't have to deal with. Granted, it isn't a terribly long process, but I just want to play the game, and not have to go back and tweak stats that I have already customized on other (PvE) characters. Since I don't have to do that now, I see no reason why I should be forced in the future just to play serious PvP.

only by those people who dislike the fact that this game requires 500+ hours to unlock all your skills, runes, and item mods. If there are a lot of pve/pvp players then you have nothing to worry about.

This argument is, as i have pointed out before, tantamount to admitting pve sucks. If everyone migrates over to the pvp ladder, this means no one found pve fun. Are you admitting that your conception of fun is so out of whack with the vast majority of the community that if they were given the choice between that and a level playing field pvp model they would universally shun what you enjoy?


I personally expect that if there was a split like this the entire competitive pvp fanbase would migrate to the UAS ladder. This should really tell you something about how the current ladder is structured, rather than be a point of contention for you. If you see a mass exodus of this order, then there is something radically wrong with the current system.

Yet, if as you say this 'whining' is only by a tiny fraction of the playerbase and the vast majority LOVE grinding till their eyes bleed, then this mass exodus won't occur.

1) The posters of this forum are, by far, a minority to both lurkers of this forum and players of this game.

2) "IF" is a big word. It should have more letters.

3) There is no 'vast majority of the community' on these forums, and certainly not one that is saying they want UAS, so kindly stop trying to imply otherwise, it tends to ruin your credibility.

4) The problem with declarative statements (or even heavy inferences) like 'no one likes PvE' is that it only takes one exception to break the rule. For example -- I'm thoroughly enjoying Guild Wars PvE. Rule broken.

Could you please stop assuming that there are two kinds of players - PvPers and PvEers? At least HALF the playerbase enjoys BOTH. You keep on totally ignoring this, and you have chosen to not respond to any of TiC's arguments on the matter. Why?

I dont know the numbers, but from my experience I would assume that only 20% of the playerbase plays PvE ONLY. GW does not offer endless content for pure PvEers, which is why many of them quit the game after beating all missions in 2 weeks or so. That leaves a very small number of pure PvE'ers who stick around, and because none of them want to PvP, NO ONE WOULD USE THE PVE LADDER.

Everyone who enjoys PvP (including those who ALSO love the PvE) would be forced to use the PvP ladder because:

-People want to team up with friends. If just two friends out of a group of 6 chose the UAS button, the others would be forced to follow to still be able to play with them. Guilds would be split up and forced to move to the UAS PvP ladder for the same reason.

-Very few PvE ladder groups, it would take forever to get matched against another team.

If half the playerbase enjoys both, then this option will have little effect. That players want to play with friends cuts both ways - if only one person wants to switch to the uas ladder, and 2 don't...guess what, he'll stick around.

As to tic's arguments, a small newsflash: what you're quoting is a response.

People who like unequal matchups in pvp will continue to play the standard ladder. Those that want actual skill based competition will migrate to the uas ladder. If you're so terrified that no one will play the unequal standard ladder, you need to seriously look at just whether or not what you enjoy about this game should be considered a majority opinion.

I'm sorry but... what?

Of course players will migrate to the UAS ladder for PvP because it will become the only viable PvP option. Creating a PvE character for the purpose of PvP would obviously be futile after this split, for the reasons mentioned 1000 times before.

And for the record, one person's "grind" is another person's gameplay. Just because you don't like going through PvE and grabbing a skill or rare item from time to time doesn't mean that nobody else does either. You clearly don't speak for everyone, so I don't even see how that's even relevant in the first place.

But even still, none of that is my problem. As both an avid PvP and PvE player, I shouldn't have to be inconvenienced because of some people who consistantly get the tears flowing whenever they come across something they don't like in a game. Simply adapt, or move on. I say the same thing to people who do nothing but complain in other games as well. If you don't like how a game is played, then fine, but don't try to ruin it for the rest of us who enjoy the experience as-is.