For PvEers: Why are you against an UAS ladder that does not affect you?

I don't think anyone doubts there are some players who don't want to have to earn things. However, it is pretty obvious that ArenaNet intends you do. Rather than attack those who are reminding you of a little thing called 'reality', why not come up with something that might approximate a workable compromise?

People who show up with only problems and never solutions rarely get taken seriously by much of anyone.

@Xellos -- I have no issue whatever with earning things. By the time I hit the level where Sigils will matter to me, I'll easily be able to pay 100K or more for them. You see, rather than spend my time complaining about things that aren't going to change, I prefer to work and meet my goal.

Gee, from all the people you've screeched at for not reading every word of your extremely condescending posts, I was under the impression you'd at least done them the courtesy of reading this whole thread before posting. I can see how wrong I was.

And do you ever plan to come down from your high horse and have a civil discussion or will I have to keep pulling you down?

The mixed PvP/PvE'er say's, "is the fun in killing the tank or the combat?" and "killing a tank with a pistol or rocket launcher...which seems more impressive"

Assumptions are ugly things, friend. I've read it all, and the only constant is the contingent of 'me me me' and 'now now now'.

Haven't seen a game yet where the developer has changed something due to whining.

I suggested you come up with viable suggestions. You reply with this load.

Gee, guess who is avoiding the point here?

edit: Here's my stance. Note the suggestion. Care to try it yourself?

I dunno but i remember reading that someone said that all guilds should get halls but sigils activate the PVP. Well if we pve players get that I dont see why not that you cant have your UAS only ladder. (That was us pve who pvp with the same char can still have a chance).

That's amazing to me. You claim to have read every post, and yet all you'd have to read to discover a "viable suggestion" as you put it is the very first one.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, this entire thread is based on an idea for a compromise, which would be a separate UAS ladder for people who don't work at McDonald's and are as such unaccustomed to hours and hours of repetitive tasks. No one here has asked for a plain, simple UAS button, that's already happened in previous threads. This one is addressing the issues an easy implementation like that would provoke, and trying to work around them.

If all you've seen is 'me me me' and 'now now now', maybe you're reading the wrong thread? I can honestly say I have no idea at this point.

So, Guild Wars is your first game, then?

A compromise is something that grants benefit to each party... perhaps not as much as they would like, but that's the nature of the term.

Making a clear-cut distinction between PvE and PvP puts in place a schism that confounds cross-over. This is why ArenaNet wisely chooses not to do so.

As for myself, I've stated elsewhere why I'm currently exclusively PvE in GuildWars and I don't see much in the game (or here for that matter) to change my mind.

If you wish to assume my background, motivations, etc. that is entirely up to you. -shrug-

Here's an idea. For the people who don't like dying, why don't we introduce a 'god mode' option? Then they don't have to die or lose if they don't want to!

Also, I think that sometimes running out of energy can be annoying, so we should allow people to have unlimited energy too.

While we're at it, I think people should be able to set their own damage on their weapons, so they can do as much damage as they like. Saves people having to take the time to kill people when they know they're just going to win anyway!

Why stop there? Let's make the skills customisable too! Just double-click, input a number and you're done.

Or how about no? It's part of the game. Like it or lump it. You running around with all skills unlocked would not be fair on PvErs who have worked to get to the PvP content the hard way, only to discover everyone there is, basically, cheating. And they'd be forced to join them if they ever wanted to be competitive themselves. Where is the 'RPG' part coming in to play if you don't have to bother working to develop your character, exactly? If you want a first person shooter instead, I can point you in the direction of millions of them.

My god, where was all this thinking before they put Sigils on the traders?

This is more or less what I was thinking about the UAS suggestion. Having all the best skills, items, runes, armor unlocked at the touch of a button seems to make the entire PvE and RPG part meaningless.

haha, bravo! well played, gg.

no where on this forum can you find a clearer difference in the mindset of pve players and pvp players. ignoring these differences and accepting each other isn't a realistic solution because of...well, human nature. compromise has already been reached in other threads but it still needs to be implemented.

btw, sigil traders have UNLIMINTED supplies of sigils. gg pve players! see whining does work! instead of paying 100k, you only have to pay 83k! that's 17% off the evil pvp player's price! funny how 3x sigils drop increase and an unliminted sigil supply only shaved off 17%. hmm what does that say about the sigil price before the change? I dunno, doing the math is seems 100k was low compared to the demand...

Ironically despite your PvE stance, that's what this game is currently: a "show off how much you've grinded!" ladder. Aside from that, you are a very compromising individual in your post.

Mindbullets, you make a valid point. However, the people that seem to be most adamantly against a UAS system are those that proudly dub themselves PvEers, and thus I posed the question to them. There does seem to be a rift in the community, but I do realize there are crossover players that enjoy both aspects of the game. I guess by virtue of simply differentiating people into different "sides" people start namecalling and spewing out non sequiturs supporting their argument (both sides do this) instead of forming constructive arguments.

Unfortunately if a UAS was implemented, the line drawn would be an actual ingame division. Whether this is good or bad is debateable. To me it is good since it lets people choose their gamestyle instead of having it forced upon them. I agree both sides shouldn't simply spew hatred at the other side, but there is a clear difference between the two camps.

You're forcing your beliefs on others. To a PvPer, the actual competition and ranking in a ladder is the reward for playing the game, not gaining an unfair advantage over the competition.

Anyone ever play America's Army? In order to play online, you were forced to do the training missions. Whether or not this improves the online experience is debateable, but the training missions were just that: training missions. Now, imagine if you had to repeat those training missions over and over again for a minimum of 48 solid ingame hours before you could wield certain powerful weapons in the game. That is the exact equivalent that many GW PvP players are experiencing before they can actually play PvP. They've already experienced the "training". Why do it repetitively over and over again?

You are the one that is sorely lacking in comprehension, Virago. You are completely misunderstanding the PvP mentality and are refusing to understand it.

Virago, many people, pvpers and pveers alike, have all submitted compromises in this thread. Your ignorance does not change this fact.

Mr. Matt, I lavish the same deserved insults to you that I've given to Virago. You simply refuse to understand the other side and to seek compromise.

Sama, what you and many others completely fail to take into account is the fact that the majority of players are attracted to this game because it offers BOTH PvE and PvP. Some are more towards the PvE and others more toward PvP.

Determining what players are interested in is anything but a clear black vs. white issue. Fortunately, A.Net is aware of their player base and will not be unduly swayed by the relatively small factions of pure PvE OR pure PvP players.

This game started as a blend between PvP and PvE and I am certain from recent statements from Gaile that they fully intend to keep it that way.

If you are currently exclusively pve then you have no room posting in this thread. The players that used the UAS button during bwe could only do it with pvp characters. They could not venture outside of the arena areas so the only contact they would have with you is when you decided to pvp. The people that the UAS button would effect is the grinding elite players who grind because it gives them a advantage in a fight over someone who didn't grind. This game was suppose to be about skill over time played but the reverse is what is true much to my dismay.

hmm...how did i ever get through college without reading comprehension =)

what was that quote about trying to making everyone happy? well, i'm sure i'll remember later. in any case, there doesn't seem to be any middle ground or it could be that there's a huge group of people that enjoy both pve and pvp but only a tiny, tiny fraction post here. i dunno, anet has yet to provide solid numbers nor do i expect them to. So it's really hard to say what a majority wants because a majority doesn't post here. However, this is hardly a main or important point in the context of the title of this thread.

the only thing that forcibly "blends" the pvp and pve is the skill grinding and rune grinding. the fact of the matter is, if pve players choose not to pvp, then they never have to. Thus, this "connection" between pve and pvp is only one way and not the revolution as many had hoped. however, in blending pvp (fps) and pve (rpg), you have inherant problems as they're two different types of games. This hybrid of the two worlds, Guild Wars, have certainly succeeded in some capacity, but in the process mislead many purist pvp'ers. And as a rpg game, well there's many that seem to have a better storyline, gameplay, and immersion.

I feel that anet needs to be more responsive to the community not only through hard stances in the form of in-game changes, but in clearly written public responses. That way we're be clear what direction the game is going and we could avoid the problem of being mislead . The only interaction between the community and anet is the occasional responses from Ms. Gaile Grey and Mr. Alex Weekes who's responses are shallow and vague at best.

The real problem is when the majority of PVP players know what's best for PVE better then the PVE players, simply because they were forced through PVE at an accelerated rate, and also the requirements for PVP forced them to learn PVE to such a high degree, that it makes the PVE players unqualified to talk about PVE in the first place, yet alone PVP or how they intertwine.

Awell, I guess my keyboard practice is done for today. Time to listen to ensign's sig sama thanks again!

Btw, the sigil increase proved me wrong. I forgot to account ebayers, since I've seen people buy 16+ sigils for no apparent reason in LA. Ah, outside factors, how could I forget. Awell, I use sigils for frisbees now.

EDIT:

Oh come on, you knew lightyears ahead that two aspects with two weaknesses combined would equal two weaknesses combined. It's up to Anet to use the strengths of those aspects to cover up until they can fix the weaknesses. Anet knew what they were getting into, or they should've. I mean, was it really a fluke with starcraft? Guess SC2 will never come out.

Hidden message sama, you know as well as I do their trying to buy time, because such big changes can make or break the game and company. I just hope by giving them time, they will be able to cover up both weaknesses. You can easily interpret the messages if you look at it from a company/business point of view. And while parts of the post are honest, the intent is still to keep customers happy and as content as possible until they can fix it. Some of us would probably like it if they just spilled out the beans, so that we can give our input, but that's a rather bold business decision which has a short and dangerous history.

People who like PvE are less qualified to talk about PvE than people who don't like it?

What is this nonsense? Oh, that's what it is, nonsense!

People who do PvP must do PvE to be competitive. These types of people generally understand the PvE aspect and balance much more intimately than traditional PvEers and have invested far more time into it. There is a bitter irony about it.

This is why it is so silly when PvEers lambast PvPers by claiming PvPers just find PvE too hard and want "godmode" and everything handed to them. It's just a huge non sequitur.

Airong: separate ladder for pvp with no major, sup or elites?

Would be balanced...

And some people who "want it all" can do that in the "old" ladder...

Compare me to The Virago or RedFang. Nothing personal, but from what I can gather, I've played alot more PVE then both these people, because it's required for my PVP. My one retired character probably has more hours then all of theirs put together. Therefore, this qualifies me automatically as a PVE player already.

PVE players in purist form when casual are not going to rush through the game, therefore they cannot see the economy, and if they are very easily pleased, they cannot be very picky, and cannot see the flaws that other people with higher standards can see. From how the story is expressed throughout the game, to the replayability, to the skill system and distrubution, all these things I know from the back of my hand because I was forced to play through it. Don't get me wrong, I love both aspects of the game. PVP, PVE, it doesn't matter to me. But I fail to see how someone who hasn't even been "taken out of the matrix" can qualify over me.

If you take out the runes, there would be complete chaos. Currently, almost all top builds are based off superior runes in some way or another. It's fine as it is, so unless you can justify this, don't argue.

I dont argue, I try to come up with alternative compromises - especially since AirOnG says that balanced pvp is the only thing PvPers really want.

Anet are in danger of getting too soft, my first chr took 70+ hours.
No I try again, ok I know the quests, so i go quickly to lvl 6 and then to post, I get there and the material trader now sells all items including rare crafting materials..
PvP / PvE, its fairly ironic, as you would still have to farm, you would still have to play the PvE to get a guild house to actually compete in GvG.
Unlock all skills, it would only benifit those who have actually completed the game and gain access to guild house.
And yes this would happen. ALL Noobs would hanker to join Guilds, skip the PvE completely and just PvP, then claim it was fixed as the more experiance players kick there butts.
The only people complaining about the UAS are the beta testers as they have spent months playing through the main areas already, and lets face it they would be the only ones to miss it. What you don't have you don't miss. The rest either dont give a monkies or are just jumping on the band wagon.
My characters don't have all skills, but have more than enough. Most of the elite skills I have found are slightly more powerful versions of existing skills. (ranger class)(monk class)(mesmer class)

You have to understand it is not playing through the missions or main campaign that is the problem. The main problem is being required to go into the exact same area in an extremely repetitive monotone fashion to kill mobs over and over for hundreds of solid ingame hours in order to compete on a level playing field. Another problem is being arbitrarily required to repetitively play through the campaign more than once in order to have skills from all classes.

Good try, but runes are currently so integrated into the game, it'll take a diablo 2 1.10 patch to fix it up. Let's just stick with it shall we? If superiors are automatically unlocked, it's still a fair playing ground.

Define "unfair advantage," please. Oh, you mean "earned"?

Not true. Unlocking of secondary classes in the Crystal Desert allows a single character to have every single skill in the game. Granted it might take time, but there's no reason to play the campaign repeatedly.

This would be true if skill points weren't so rare. As of now, it is more time efficient to start the campaign over than to kill the same mobs over and over to get less skill points.

Koduku, for each additional skill point you earn due to leveling past 20, it takes more and more experience to level. There are diminishing returns for continuously leveling. That's why you have to create more than one PvE character. There are approximately 75 skills per class. You'll need 300 skill points which is almost impossible to obtain in any reasonable timeframe to switch your secondary 4 times and get all the skills for those classes (assuming you don't need your skillpoints for your original class selection).

I suppose it's a matter of perspective. Most PvPers do not view farming for hundreds of hours for the ability to play on a level playing field a rewarding experience and often feel it's a completely arbitrary and unnecessary gameplay mechanic. An unfair advantage to a PvPer is an artificial game rule that makes one side have a superficial advantage over another side. In this case, the superficial advantage is one side having more health or runes or skills just by virtue of having done an unchallenging and unskilled timesink.

In order to really be "earned" to a PvPer, the reward should be something that actually requires skill like position in a ladder or tournament. To obtain runes and skills in this game, all that is required is purely time and very little skill.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that all PvP players are by their very nature unobservant and possess poor standards? These assumptions are nothing but unfounded and insulting.

I enjoy the PvP system in the game, though I'm largely a "casual PvE player." MMORPGs are typically disappointing in the PvP realm what with a hefty reliance on attributes and randomly generated numbers to decide who lives and dies. Guild Wars so far has seemed to be one of the best at reaching a balanced PvP playing field, but a UAS option will do nothing but hurt that balance.

What do you mean by "taken out of the matrix"?

Do you have the numbers to substantiate this? It took me about the same amount of experience to get five more skill points after level 20 than it took me to go from 19 to 20. First I've ever heard of diminishing returns on skill points.

Let me note that an UAS system is far better for a casual pvp player since he does not have to invest massive amounts of time in a timesink and can actually simply compete on a level playing field that is based on skill.

Kodoku, here:
http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=137
There are diminishing returns to obtain skill points through leveling. Thus, you cannot realistically obtain all skills through just one PvE character. It's far more practical to create additional PvE characters (and thus be forced to repeat the campaign).

Kodoku, your lack of understanding that there were diminishing returns kinds of proves his point that PvPers have a far more intimate understanding of the PvE game mechanics than casual PvEers.

It doesn't really seem right... it would kind of make it be a completely different type of game, in my opinion. But...
If it didn't affect me in any way, shape, or form, I can't say I'd have any reason to argue.

This reply is going to get me flamed, but I'll go ahead with it. Why are PvPers so attracted to massively multiplayer online ROLEPLAYING games? Yes, there is by definition a grind built into this genre. It's the nature of the beast. Aside from an immersive plotline, RPGs (and MMORPGs) involve lots of character development (okay, so plot is sometimes thin in MMOs).

I've never been very satisfied with the PvP content of MMORPGs, though Guild Wars has risen above my expectations. These games rely heavily on statistics and random die rolls to determine the outcomes of battles. There's a lot of luck going along with the skill in PvP battles in this genre. Guild Wars has less randomness, but it's still a part of the system.

If you want purely skill-based PvP, the FPS and RTS genres are much more skill-based. MMORPG PvP is more analogous to two players duking it out in a pencil-and-paper Dungeons and Dragons game. Yes, Guild Wars has reduced the randomness factor, but not elminated it.

Of course, in FPS games lag does insert an element of luck.

If you want skill-based PvP without putting any work whatsoever into it, this really isn't the right genre for you.

Man, that last line is going to get me flamed.

Proves the point? So a single example demonstrates the presence of a much larger truth? I'm a game mechanics junkie, my friend. Understanding of the game mechanics has nothing to do with one's PvP or PvE standing. It's really a question of personality.

Blah, I edit too much as new posts come to my attention.

The PvP in this game is not disappointing to many and is the main reason why PvPers have bought this game. Many did not buy the game for the PvE and were misled by the advertisements and promises. For example, on the box that I purchased the game with:
There was a common meme in the advertisement of breaking the traditional MMORPG mold and eliminating the grind.

This is a serious logical fallacy. It does not logically make sense. It is a non-sequitur that has been repeated over and over. How is it not a balanced PvP playing field if everyone has access to the exact same abilities and equipment? How would making everyone be on a level playing field hurt PvP balance?

There's a correlation, however. I do realize the plural of anecdote is not data. I was using the example as an illustration.

Also, as I believe was mentioned earlier in the thread, I'd also be in favor of a way for PvPers to unlock skills and runes and the like without actually having to go through the PvE portion of the game.
I don't know how it would be done, exactly, but... it could work.

For a casual pure PvP player yes, I agree with you. But NOT for a casual (or hardcore for that matter) PvE/PvP player (one who is interested in both) and since these are the players that are a majority in this game, and it seems obvious to me, the population that A.Net has made this game for, then UAS is an awful alternative.

And since A.Net (Gaile) has specifically stated that UAS was a tool to use during beta test and was never intended for the final game, continually harping on the idea of including one in a future release. Sorry, but it ain't (thankfully) gonna happen.

Prove that the majority of people in this game (over 50% since that is the definition of majority) are hardcore PvE/PvP players. You can't and thus you are relying on a presumption that you can't even prove. Based on this thread alone, I would venture to say there are more PvPers who do not want the grind than "hardcore" PvPer/PvEers who want the grind. Casual PvEers seem to make a significant portion as well.

A.net however has constantly thrust up their elimination of grind and how the PvP would be based on skill rather than hours played. This is currently and objectively not the case since the amount you grind has a significant impact on your PvP performance.

if you read her post it was casual (or hardcore)

and that covers much more than 50 %

My misconception was that this was PvP in an MMORPG setting. I realize now that this assumption was not true. In ways, Guild Wars is an MMORPG in a PvP setting, though the grind element has not been removed, only lessened. Levels do not play into hit-vs.-defense calculations. Level-20s have no more energy (save elemenalists) than level-3s. Only health and attribute points (and thus the effectiveness of skills and weapons) are level-based. Perhaps ArenaNet has reached a pretty good balance of PvP and RPG conventions.

Assumptions have been made on both sides of the playing field. You mentioned the misleading skill motif in the advertising and on the game box itself. The balance argument in the context of an MMORPG setting is not a non sequitur in that in an MMORPG, character skills, equipment, et al must be acquired through work over time. Thus I am inclined to side with the propositioin that skills, runes, and weapon mods be earnable through PvP accomplishments - though only for PvP-only characters.