For PvEers: Why are you against an UAS ladder that does not affect you?

I guess I don't really understand the people saying pvp is too dependant on pve.It really takes little time or effort to level/gain items/capture skills. That said, I can understand the annoyance with capture elite skills. I also feel this annoyance. As I understood it, elite skills were elite so as to be unable to be used in conjunction with one another. Signaling them out for capture added another level of signifigance. This was then left with a half-ass feel by the random boss spawns and lack of mission involvement. While still not difficult to get (via online maps showing boss names/locations), they seem to have a false meaning. The elites are the only arguement I can see being made that pve is too signifgant. That is the arguement happening here, is it not? Some people are saying 'It is more important that I'd like it to be so give me a button to make it go away.'

For pvp players that do not want to grind for runes or weapons, why do it? Now that 3 sigils drop per win at HoH, with their current value of around 70k, your group is making 210k per win. It is entirely possible to make enough money to buy any type of rune or item modifier that you want. If you're not winning the HoH, and blaming it on lack of superior runes or elite skills then something is wrong. I've seen people battle in HoH with henchman teams, it is actually common. I have also been in teams where NONE of the players had elite skills and still we have won.

The UAS button I suppose I could understand making the arenas into a place where you can make a character lvl 20 with the best gear and all the skills. If you are wanting to go bash other people then fine go there. The HoH and favor of the gods are linked to pve gameplay and I would go so far as to say a part of it. I do not understand the arguement for a seperate UAS ladder. Why would they do this? There is no real ladder to begin with, other than gvg, and I have not seen that clearly mentioned (I must admit I skipped a page or two). I am not aware of a way to check how many wins you have in Tombs or HoH, or a score chart of those who have won the most. Please point out the site where I can check these if I am wrong.

No, that one friend will not stick around. Its a simple fact. Just look at what effect some expansions generally have on MMOs - people hate and curse them, dont want to buy them, but are pretty much forced to if they dont want to lose part of their friends and guild. If there is a new map for counterstrike that half the playerbase hates (and the other half loves), everyone will be forced to use it if they want to play against and with everyone they chose.

If half the playerbase enjoys both PvE and PvP, then yes, as I described above, this option will have an effect. Half of what half the playerbase enjoys will die, due to becoming utterly pointless. Whats the point of unlocking skills if all of them are just a button-click away. Whats the point of accumulating skill points, why bother with underworld quests.

You seem to forget that this half of the playerbase doesnt play PvE for the sake of PvE, they play and enjoy it because of PvP.


I want skill based competition, and no, I dont want to move to an UAS ladder, not do I want one to exist for reasons outlined earlier. I dont farm, I dont grind, I am far from having all skills, I only have a few runes unlocked... and I did pretty darn well in PvP last time I tried it. You could too.

I want to play against and with everyone I chose. I want to read someone's post and challenge them. I dont want to do something I detest to be able to maintain this freedom.

I'd like to ask you something else I asked before, but you never chose to respond to this one either - if I missed it, apologies.

Why an UAS ladder? Why not a possibility for pure PvPers to unlock skills and runes through pure PvP - with fame points or whatever? You see, a lot of players absolutely detest the concept of an UAS ladder - and if so many detest it, maybe they have a point. However, I have yet to see even ONE person who is against a PvP unlockable system.

My opinion: Those who simply want to unlock skills over time without needing to PvE ever... more power to you. You have my full support.

Those who want to have access to everything instantly without investing time doing something they supposedly enjoy - sorry, I think you are spoiled slackers.

You say this in the same post as you say

Reconcile these two diametrically opposed arguments for me, would you?

If what i consider 'grind' is gameplay to a majority of people, they will not switch to the pvp ladder. This is fairly self-evident...you have the choice between gameplay you like and its absense. Yet if the UAS pvp becomes the only viable option, that means that the majority do not share this view. If you admit the majority does not find the grind as gameplay, how do you justify forcing the many to cater to the needs of the few - in your case those who like the combination of both? If the only way that your type of gameplay can flourish is with what amounts to extortion...doesn't that tell you that something is wrong?

I say again, the only possible way your experience will be ruined is if you're in a vanishingly small minority of liking the game as-is.


Ah, at last the heart of the matter. A UAS ladder would have as its defining feature the fact that all players have full access to all options available in the game. How is the standard ladder mechanically different? In the fact that not all players have full access to all the options available in the game. You have a situation of haves and have-nots. The playing field is unequal, and thus is not a real skill-based competition. You're fighting their statistical superiority if you're a have not, or their statistical inferiority if you're a have. Some people like this sort of thing, but you cannot equate it to a skill based competition. Its tantamount to handicapping, but without the 'better' player necessarily having the worse stuff.

So - what you like is unequal matchups. Fine, i have no conceptual problem with that. If most people are like you then the standard ladder will still exist and you'll be able to have your fun.

What i do have a problem with is that I don't like unequal matchups. There is no reason to dribble skills to a pvpers one at a time, there is no reason to dribble runes to a pvper one at a time. The challenges they are facing never ramp, never increase or decrease in potency. That the skill system is balanced when it is fully available means that is is necessarily unbalanced when it is not fully available. For those like me, there should be a UAS ladder where we can compete against each other.

You won't be fighting with me regardless. I am not going to participate in the ladder this game has right now because i'm unwilling to spend 500+ hours making sure i'm not at a disadvantage. The playerbase that will migrate to the UAS ladder feel similarly to me. Those that stay will have the same exact mindset as you do, that unequal matchups are fun, and thats perfectly fine as long as those that don't think the same thing aren't forced to either conform or leave.

You may want to re-read my post. I said only viable PvP option, not "only viable option." PvE is clearly another choice. My point, which is repeatedly going over your head, is that this system is not ideal for those who enjoy PvP and PvE equally. It requires multiple characters, which for the 3rd time now, is not practical for someone in my position.

If that still doesn't make sense, then, I don't really know what to tell you. I'm going to bed either way.

And MY point is that if it becomes the only viable pvp option then what you like is in a vanishingly small minority because the bulk of the playerbase has voted with its feet, as it were, and gone to something they like. That you wish to continue your fun at the expense of everyone else in the game is what i take issue with.

Just another quick response before I sleep.

It's not necessarily the bulk of the player base that will be playing PvP, it's that there will be less players playing PvP in the PvE ladder. This is because some people like to play PvE only and won't compete in PvP at all, thus limiting overall group availability.

That's pretty much it right there.

My point still holds. If the bulk of pvp players don't wish to grind and fight in an unequal arena, you're having your fun at the expense of theirs.

That may or may not be true, but personally, I don't care either way. That wasn't the purpose of any of my posts, and had you bothered to actually read them, you would have realized that. Now it's time for me to get some sleep for real.

Which is what makes your arguments so weak.

You still havent responded to my question, Lazarous. Maybe others will respond to the new thread I started.

I think everything has been said, we tried to explain you why an UAS ladder WOULD negatively affect those who are against it. You ignored all counter-arguments that could not be twisted to feed your own. It is impossible to discuss with someone who denies the existence of any reality beyond the one in his mind.

Thats the difference between you and me, I understand what you are unhappy with, and I'd like to see it changed as well. You, on the other hand, totally fail to understand why we are unhappy and concerned about UAS.

You speak of forcing PvPers to accept the system or leave, yet what you suggest forces the other half (or majority) of the playerbase to accept UAS or leave. Thats pretty hypocritical.

I'll change my mind about you if you ever chose to respond to my question.

Lazarous, I really don't understand you man. You've made it clear that you are not interested in finding a way to gain skills and such through pvp. This seems like a reasonable alternative with still showing skill in your field though i am not sure how this would work.

Through your comments I gather that you solely want ALL skills in the game, along with any type of armor or weapon handed to you at character creation. This must be your end goal since you have shot down any constructive input given by those you are arguing with. Stop dreaming it is not going to happen. There is no way in hell you can justify it.

This seperate pvp ladder idea has come up a lot as well. Please point me in the direction of the current merged ladder. Can't? Maybe thats because there ISN'T one. If you want a pvp version of something that doesn't exsist then fine, give me your credit card number and i'll send you it right now.

That you haven't been able to understand how i've directly responded to your question is somewhat sad. Read my post again.

The only hypocricy here is in your arguments.

You don't even understand what a guild hall is for nor how to gain ladder rankings? Why are you posting in this thread? Learn some of the basic mechanics of this game first.

I have seen HoH and Tombs mentioned many times, other than your last comment 've not seen a comment specifying GvG battles come up at all.


Now that you bring it up though, I'd have to say I would be completely against a 'Free Ride' ticket for guild vs guild battles. If you can't get the skills through fighting for it then you shouldn't have them to begin with. I am not going to continue arguing with you though. You only see your side of the fence. I would be interested to do battle with you in game though. It would be funny if you sucked but blamed it on your wish to not grind all the way up to that insanely high level twenty.

Riiiiight. A free ride ticket, have to remember that one. Since obviously having a situation where the top guilds have gotten a complete skillset due to massive time investment which those in the lower ranks cannot fight against evenly is such a measurement of ability.

This 'argument' - i use the term loosely - has been brought up and shot down uncountable times. Those that do aren't worth arguing with, so...welcome to ignore land.

I do think giving someone skills and such at the outset is a free ride, obviously through the game mechanics and design it is. What I gather from your posts is that you say the problem is you do not want to pve at all. From your arguements I think your problem is you do not want to work for the skills at all. The idea I am refering to that others have come up with is giving some way for pvp'ers to unlock these skills through pvp. Though this would solve what you say your problem is and seems logical to me, you disagree. You've knocked the idea but not really said why. If pvp'ing for skills is too much of a grind to you why pvp at all? pvp = grind

Also obvious to me they do not have a way at the moment to pvp for skills, but maybe they will take the constructive input from the community to form ideas as to how to implement it. Maybe you could come up with an alternative solution other than just 'give it to me now and if you don't agree shut up because you are wrong'.

Sleep well my friend, I know I will.

You could have spent all that time you use to complain about a game that many others enjoy playing something that is actually fun for YOU.

I suggest UT or CS, since obviously you have a problem with the roleplay aspect of GW.

And yes that argument has been used a million times as well, I bet, because it is basically true.

If UAS means Unlock All Skills it would be an excellent idea, and I have suggested it many times in many threads.

Guild Wars should be about having fun, not preparing to have fun. And I don't really want to group with people in PvE who are not playing to have fun anyway, such people tend to be very little fun.

If a level playing field is all you want, just make a checkbox for PvP battles "CS Style" and all players who go into battle will first start with only the starter skills for round 1 (Knife Round) and then earn cash each kill and round win. Then let them buy their skills from the complete list of skills between each round. Those team can fight it out gaining cash and buying skills and then it all resets when they leave to take on a different team.

The characters will retain only the skills they have unlocked in regular pve, but when they go into these "cs style" pvp battles it starts everyone at the same point.

.. we need to get back to the original meaning of the post.. and the above quote says it all.. you can make a max level char instantly.. the only thing you need to 'grind' (and I use the word loosly) are skills. It sickens me to think that people are seriously upset with the week (if that) amount of work it would be to learn all the skills from your two professions. My god, it takes about that long to even see if you like the game.. or if you like your professions.. or if you're a half-decent PvPer who wants a level playing field.. begging and complaining about this is going nowhere.. think from a game designers point of view.. if they just let you have everything right up front, why spend 4 years writing the game? Think about it. You complain about possibly 80 hours of gameplay to learn ALL skills.. without the time to learn them you'd just be flipping through the pages to randomly choose ones that looked good.. without ever playing yet.. anyone can attest to the fact that just reading the description of a skill says nothing about how useful it will actually be in a real PvP (or PvE) situation. So what your asking for isn't just another ladder, and don't sully our intelligence by claiming that. You're asking to be spoon fed a game that was intended to be essentially simple to get into, but as addictive as a grind. It's just sad in my opinion that there's seriously support for this argument. I truly and sincerely hope A.net doesn't take this to heart. They've built an amazing game, with a new vision for MMORPGs.. and you're sitting their complaining like a child who was given a ferrari for free.. but wanted to be instantly an amazing driver. Takes time to learn guys.

-Paradox

Exactly, the major driving force behind this game IS skill, yet all I read is people complaining about how numbers of skills, runes, elites unbalance the game, make it unfair, blah blah blah.

That just shows your absolute ignorance of Guild Wars, tbh. If you cant see that these items are desirable for a good player, not a necessity to become a good player, then you need not post much more on any topic.
These items. and skills, simply boil down to you not wanting to have to go through the same methods of attaining them as any one else.
They are not game breakers, people without them are not at a disadvantage before a fight starts.
Infact your more likely to gain victories through opponents choosing ONE WRONG SKILL than you are by stacking up on runes and elites.

Timing, imo, can be more important than the very weapon you wield In GW.

My point to all this is that your only arguement for the addition of UAS etc. can be your own impatience and desire to have what others have, without doing what they did to get them. Not unbalance, unfairness, or any other crap.

Anyway here is something I wrote in another post about this extremelly annoying debate.

There is a post asking why cant their be a PvE ladder and an UAS ladder, or why cant the game be split into PvE and PvP. I say this might just work, under a few conditions.

The PvP only characters get access to all their skills. They do not EVER get access to elite skills or runes. These should only be avaible via PvE, thus meaning that hardest hardcore of the game will remain the full game, PvE to PvP character, while still giving PvP only characters access to almost everything, except the very best.

This means that the players who play the entire game with the most hardcore attitude can achieve the most hardcore characters, builds, and achievements. This ill mean people who play ALL OF GUILD WARS will be the only ones who can possibly squeeze every last ounce of power and ability out of their characters. Thus meaning that those players who wish to be the best at the game in all respects shall have to deal with entire game, and tbh I dont think anyone who has aims of being the absolute champion of Guild Wars will have considered doing any less...

Those people who do not wish to 'grind' 'farm' or 'work' to get near maximum enjoyment do not have to, they can create characters as good if not better than most right from the beginning, but the absolute hardcore achievements of victory, and highest level of skills and character power shall not be handed free to them, indeed shall not be accesible, excpet via the entire game.

Skill being more important doesn't make unfair advantages fair. They're not big unfair advantages, but there isn't any real reason for them to be in PvP. It would be much better if they put in really powerful stuff that was actually satisfying to get, then only allowed it to be used in PvE.

No real competitive game I know has uneven playfield if other team used time for something that doesn't include competing with other teams. Only way to improve your changes of winning is to practice. Even CS has even playfield on the first round (I don't like the money system the game has btw, it can make games boring when other team has to toss rounds using just pistols to collect money).

PvE style PvP is not real PvP to me (aka WoW or Diablo2), and that's all there's to it. There still hasn't been good argument against having PvP characters that have access to all tools from the get go, besides comments from people who like to lord things they have over others. And PvE player who wants to try PvP could just create one and off he goes. Current stagnation of the ladder is just because real hardcore players will not compromise. This game looked like a first real competitive fantasy game but still falls bit short at least for now. At minimum they should start piling up rune and equipment rewards for just playing PvP. There is a little of this now but it needs to give access at least as fast as farming so that nobody needs to do that if they don't want to. I'm sure even you agree that farming just to get equipment access for PvP is retarted activity, yet it is required currently.

why not let PVPer's trade a sigil to unlock a skill. This would not be handing them skills on a siler plater. Just a sugestion.

The power should be readily accessible to everyone. If a pver wants to grind for his skills then he should be able to. If a pvper wants to just unlock his skills he should be able to. I don't understand why anyone wants to force there views on anyone else.

Arenanet wanted to market this game to 3 groups of players, pure PvP, pure PvE, and PvE&P (with the largests emphesis on the later). In order to satisfy all 3, changes will have to be made, it's obvious the PvP crowd is unhappy and Arenanet did make a no grind promise to them.

I fall into the PvE&P as do many others. If we (the PvE&P community) do not support the seperate ladders our enjoyment of the game will end up diminished by Arenanet in an effort to satisfy the PvP only crowd... we do not want this to happen.

Arenanet, instead of creating a seperate ladder, would have no choice but to add more skills to the PvP char. This will greatly take away from benefits of develoding PvE&P char. Changes to the existing system would ruin the reason we develop chars in the first place. So... in my opinion, seperate ladders is the only fair option. I support seperate ladders and I ask other PvP&Eers to do the same.

Arenanet WILL do something to make the PvPers happy, the recent announcement of Arenanet adding more bosses to make it easier to get the Elite skills seems in effort to do just that, if it continues we will see the benefit of PvP&E chars greatly diminish, and that scares me. Do we want their solutions to negetively affect the PvE&Pers? No we dont. So I urge everyone to voice thir support the of seperate ladder creation. This is the only way to satisfy the PvP only players while keeping the true spirit intact for the PvP&Eers.

However, the current ladder (PvE&P) needs to continue to allow the use of PvP chars. Players have to be able to create different class chars for battles. Many of us go through a lot of PvE grind to unlock skills for additional classes allowing us to be deverse in the team make-up durring PvP or GvG.

Remember, as a PvE&Per you would always have the option to compete in both ladders (my guild would gladly compete in both)- the PvP ladder (with special PvP chars with set skills) and the PvP&E ladder (with your PvE and PvP chars that can utilize unlocked skills and runes). Why not support the seperate ladders... you run a big risk of hurting the PvE&P community by not supporting the seperate ladders.

-Nim

Those who want a seperate ladder system are a minority. The rest understand that there are better solutions. The PvP only crowd is a minority as well, I'm sure Arenanet will not spoil the game for a majority to please the few PvPers who insist on being bottle-fed and refuse to accept better solutions.

I pointed out before why seperate ladders would ruin the reason to develop roleplay characters. It really is common sense. Splitting the community didnt work in other games, nor would it work here.

I'm pretty sure Arenanet will never satisfy the few who insist on being bottle-fed with zero time investment. A roleplay game is about character development. The many PvPers who would enjoy character development through PvP will likely see improvements soon.

You dont think the recent announcement of adding many new bosses to have easy access to elite skills is a attempt to satisfy the PvPers? Dont you think easing the work needed to aquire the skills the start of a slippery slope that ends with PvP players having equal skills to us harder core PvE&Pers?

I am just really afraid that any attempt to please PvPers, other than giving them their own ladder, will affect us negetively. I just want to head it off before it happens, althought it may already be too late, it may have already started.

-Nim

Lazarous has very solid arguments.

I'm a bit amused when some claim that there are so many PvEer/PvPers that would prefer the current situation over UAS, but that if a UAS system was implemented, there would be no one left in the PvE/PvP ladder because everyone would move to UAS. Those who have made that argument do realize that there are two ladders under a dual ladder system, right? Those of like mindsets are free to compete with each other. Templates should work just like they do now in the PvE/PvP ladder. The only difference is a seperate UAS system.

So many invalid arguments have been rehashed over and over and over in this thread. Lazarous, do you want to attempt to compile a list of fallacies against a UAS system?

The only valid argument I have heard thus far against UAS and a major problem of UAS is that it would split the community. Whether or not this is a bad thing no one knows for sure. It is probably better to err on the side of caution and simply implement being able to obtain skills purely through PvP, although I still feel UAS is the better solution.

As much as I hate repeating myself, I'm finding it necessary for some people in this thread. Again, there would obviously be less PvP competition in the PvE ladder because many people will be there for PvE only. People who want to participate in PvP will obviously want a larger player base to organize games, because in case you haven't already realized, it's enough of a pain in the ass to get competent HoH PUGs as is. Yeah, so let's split things up more, that sounds like a great idea.

Totally unrelated aside -- I was amazed to see so many people unwilling to even ATTEMPT to fight without what they perceived as 'the perfect team' in HoH. Honestly, every shred of credibility in the 'it's about the skill of the player' argument was hoisted on the petard of this reality.

As to the subject, I doubt seriously anyone is going to convince or convert anyone else here. And to be sure the in-fighting (which is what this is) doesn't advance ideas for change that can be embraced by ArenaNet (e.g., all vocal support for compromise X, for example).

A pity.

god no, that'd take weeks.

repeating gibberish is just that. If people feel the same as you and want unequal competition, they will stay in the standard ladder. If they want skill based competition they move to the UAS ladder. This only becomes a problem if the vast majority of the community chooses one over the other - and if this is so, that implies the choice they didn't make is the one that is not fun.

I don't really see a need to unlock the skills. They're relatively easy to acquire. I have about 150 hours played on my Monk/Elementalist, and I have 15 Elite skills between the two professions. With a little research, you can grab a full group of henchmen and acquire most any skill in about an hour. Maybe two. That's not much of a 'grind', IMO.

What I have a problem with is the unlocking of runes. I've unlocked 2 Major runes (Divine Favor & Blood Magic), and maybe half of the Minor runes. I've not found a Superior rune yet. The drop rate seems atrociously bad, and many of the drops aren't even IDable.

So instead of UAS, lets have UAR (Unlock All Runes). Skills are very easy to get. 3-4 days played and you can get most every skill for a Profession, but you won't have gotten many Runes at all.

I've been running under the assumption that a UAS ladder would unlock everything, including runes and weapon mods.

The vast majority, I suspect, would choose PvP only... and after a few weeks, they'd simply stop playing the game, because there'd be no sense of accomplishment (only a very small portion of the playerbase is actually COMPETING on the global ladder; the majority are just fodder), or any form of motivation to continue playing.

I think the best the "PvP community" can hope to achieve is for skills (including elite) and runes to be unlocked during PvP play, just as you can acquire XP. However, that rate of unlocking needs to come at a slower pace, I think, than straight PvE.

I don't think the majority of the playerbase wants "something for nothing". Most people like to feel they EARNED their place, and I don't think many people would be proud claiming "My guild is #2,062 on the ladder today!!", even if there were 50,000 guilds. So in order for there to be a sense of accomplishment for EVERYONE, there has to be something that doesn't 'rank' you, but still takes some effort: the PvE grind to get Runes & Skills.

In short, the UAS system would destroy the PvP you love, because you'd lose a vast majority of your companions. And the PvE players would suffer, too, as there'd be almost no reason to play PvE, unless you wanted to play a sub-standard PvE game (IMO, WoW is far superior in regards to PvE). I don't mind the PvE much in GW, but I certainly wouldn't be doing it if I could just press a button and have everything unlocked for PvP/GvG.

Aug,

So in games like counter-strike, where you get "something for nothing," did players leave "after a few weeks?" Not to mention, CS has only like what, 15 or so guns? GW has over 450 'guns,' or so to speak.

Possible. Considering that the alternative destroys it anyway, i'm not seeing how a chance of success is inferior to a certainty of failure.

The instant gratification that exists in CS does not in GW. The style of "PvP" in the two games is vastly different. What draws people to CS is the fast play and ability to be a '1 man army'. Those things don't exist in GW. GW is a much more intellectual game... and I don't think the UAS system would keep those people around.

I don't think I'd play GW without the 'achievement/character development' (unlocking runes & skills) aspect of the game.

Double post content:

Certainty of failure? The game is still doing quite well, I think. It certainly hasn't failed. What makes you so certain it will fail? In what time frame? Most RPGs last for quite a while, no matter how poorly they're staffed or updated. I don't expect GW to 'fail' for at least a year, and will likely last much longer, based upon the attentiveness I've seen from the devs so far.

I think far fewer players will quit because they have to do a grind to be the most uber of uber, than compared to the number that would simply stop playing due to boredom if everything were available from the get-go. You don't need those Major or Superior runes... 20-30 hps, or a few extra points of damage, will not swing the favor your way in the face of teamwork, or superior play. And you can only bring one Elite skill to the table every fight... so you really only need to find a few, and like I said, they're not that hard to get.

The gwg ladder is dead. That seems like a pretty certain failure to me. Hardcore pvp are leaving this game because of the grind requirements that were added at the last minute. That seems like failure to me.

Candyman963 posted this in another thread that is now locked, i hope he won't mind me using it here since he states better than i can what i mean by 'failure'.

Tic, you've claimed that most of the people in the game are PvEers and PvP/PvEers and that people wanting a UAS are a small minority. I do concur there would be somewhat slightly less population in the PvP/PvE ladder if your assertion is true, but if all those PvP/PvE ladder (that you've claimed make up a significant majority of the community) really don't like the UAS, they'd remain in the PvP/PvE ladder and the UAS would be the one that dies off due to lack of players. The competition would be in the PvP/PvE ladders since so many people according to you hate UAS and would play where most of the population is residing. However, you keep contradicting yourself when you keep claiming the PvP/PvE ladder would die off since everyone would migrate to the UAS ladder.

You'd play it and kiss the ground the developers walk on like a good boy. The instant gratification does exist in GW-- PvP templates? CS is a team game. Have you even played it before?