For PvEers: Why are you against an UAS ladder that does not affect you?

Mormegil

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Indeed...reading comprehension is your friend too, since I agree with Xellos on the UAS but I don't on the life span of this game (which was a part of his post, so I think I'm not OT).

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

Read his post again.

Mormegil

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos
It's a nice plan you had, playing the guilt card on this thread, but look at it this way, you'd have to cut the community in two, therefore each community is smaller. And since each community is seperate, yet has it's own respective and unpartable qualities, it forces players to spend time in either both communities or just one. This makes the game less replayable. PVE is already a joke for replayability, and PVP doesn't have enough scenarios to make it fun, coupled with the fact that there is only 2 ladders, makes Guilds and good teams the only desire in PVP community, which makes casual players even more screwed. All in all, it rips apart the community slowly, because the game isn't even near perfect yet in neither aspect, therefore by ripping them apart your just giving it a short boost of happiness before it dies even faster.

This is what I'm talking about. I lost the following post from Xellos because I was writing mine.

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

Yup, read that again.

Notice something about how he equates the lifespan of the game to something else being argued in this thread? No?

Redfang

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

Hope And Glory

W/Me

No one is forcing PvPers to do anything. You knew how the game is played when you bought it. Now evidently you have taken a beatdown in the arena and you want an "I win" button lol. If you want to be competitive, compete. Get the skills you want. No one is stopping you.

FelineFury

FelineFury

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarous
Mormegil's post is amusing. You do realize that xellos is arguing against the UAS dual ladder system proposed by the op?

Reading comprehension. It's your friend.
The world isn't all black and white. There are different layers of suggestive comprehention which are percived by everyone in different manners. In other words 2 people car read 2 different things and post 2 thing that are equally different and equally valid.

Mormegil

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos
because the game isn't even near perfect yet in neither aspect, therefore ... just giving it a short boost of happiness before it dies even faster.
See? That was the part I was referring to.

Xellos

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2005

No Idea

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A valid concern, Xellos, but I think the game community will actually be stronger because of it.
I gladly welcome any support/evidence that can prove what you say is true. This is a forum, both sides should have equal chance to prove their case.

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What i really meant is i understand the game is asking you to get the skills and that you think it's a grind. The suggestion to implement UAS is interresting and will be considered along with the cons. The breaking of PvP into pieces is a good idea but it might cause less population available to PvPers of either group and would require additional ressources.
That's only the tip of the iceberg, but the main idea is somewhat scratched, and is why I believe this is a bad move.

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Is that a requirement for responding? ;p
If you want to refer to me the way you did, yes. Otherwise, I'd treat you as a ESL student. y0 [email protected]

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PvE has its own problems, but why should they drag down PvP as well?
That is actually the opposite. Currently, PVE keeps PVP alive. There are disadvantages to this, but PVE intertwined with PVP actually provides more benefits in its current state. You just have to look ahead and see what would happen if it did split.

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By seperating the game in two you have more options to make each part better, because you don't have to deal with the various feedback loops inherent in a combined system.
Good point, but if you split them right now, the player base would eat you up before you could fix anything. Once you split them, they will be that much more focused on their desired game, and therefore be even more picky. Stuff like balance, content, etc etc comes into play. At this point, Anet can barely do new content, expansion, and fixing bugs. Splitting would completely kill their workers.

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You could add all sorts of pvp arenas that have wildly different rulesets and balance them against a set standard of items/runes/skills, not worrying whether certain players would feel left out because they don't have all the goodies they need.
And that is work that now needs to be IMMEDIATELY done rather then put til later because of the convienience of the merged systems. This would create much more workloads, less quality in their work, and might even force a pay to play. You have to look at this from a omniscient view, otherwise, your view is bound to be flawed in a major way. Theories will never be perfect, but the way most people try to look at things has enough holes to sink a continent.

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Similarly for pve, in that you could change balance for the zones independant of how it would possibly affect the pvp portion of the game.
Same as above.

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Ah, don't you worry guys.
I also like how people said that about stuff like national security, and then 9/11 happened. Awareness isn't worrying. Awareness is awareness. Choose to be ignorant if you wish, but don't encourage it.

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Whiners like Xellos were there even when Diablo 2 was out, claiming "the game will have a very short life span because it's repetitive and too similar to the first one".
Do you even know why Diablo 2 lives? It's because of runs and farming. It is to this day, known as the farmers game. Is Diablo 2 ever mentioned as a fun PVP game? Or even fun PVE game? Hell no. It's about leveling, getting rare items from pindleskin, and making your god damn character godly. Back then, people didn't realize it got old, but you always saw people who quit and came back. The fluxating market done by SOJs also contributed to the lifespan of Diablo 2. The sheer amount of elites and such was fun enough for those who just liked to collect and make their character uber compared to everyone else. In short, it's just like how rich kids like to pose with their cool clothes and equipment, but don't take part in the fun. Their fun comes from their material status. And that's their choice. People have evolved past that. Obviously you don't even have a clue what Diablo 2 was about.

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Predicting the future with that surprising confidence sounds a bit arrogant to me.
Glad you noticed.

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You say this game is doomed, it will not last much, basing your "curses" on no impartial analysis of it.
No, I did not. I said splitting the game would shorten it's lifespan. Shorten can go from anywhere from the game going from 50 years to 49 years, to 50 years to 5 seconds. Why must you always put words into my mouth? Are you not capable of reading without assuming on variables?

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The game is having an astonishing success everywhere btw, I'm sorry to ruin your visceral pessimism.
That statement is an opinion. On many aspects it is a success, but on many aspects, it just became hell for some people.

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This is heavy criticism, I hope you dont take that as an offense. Cheers.
No it isn't, this isn't even criticism. It's people who haven't even played the game enough argueing against me.

AirOnG

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfang
No one is forcing PvPers to do anything. You knew how the game is played when you bought it. Now evidently you have taken a beatdown in the arena and you want an "I win" button lol. If you want to be competitive, compete. Get the skills you want. No one is stopping you.
It's not an "I win" button. It's a "level playing field" button. Farming for runes and abilities takes absolutely no skill and is simply a timesink. It adds absolutely nothing to the competitive aspect of the game.

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

So him arguing that UAS would kill the game faster is doomsaying that the game is going to die regardless? You do realize games have finite lifespans?

Shrug, feel free to use people who are supporting your arguments as dart boards, makes the opposing side easier.

Mormegil

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos
No it isn't, this isn't even criticism. It's people who haven't even played the game enough argueing against me.
So I guess you're prophet and judge in the same person. Cool!

/bows

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

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If you want to refer to me the way you did, yes. Otherwise, I'd treat you as a ESL student. y0 [email protected]
You're really losing me here. You post an idea in a thread, and when i respond directly to that idea it makes me an esl student?

Shrug, i'll not distract your little flamewar with mormegil.

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And that is work that now needs to be IMMEDIATELY done rather then put til later because of the convienience of the merged systems. This would create much more workloads, less quality in their work, and might even force a pay to play. You have to look at this from a omniscient view, otherwise, your view is bound to be flawed in a major way. Theories will never be perfect, but the way most people try to look at things has enough holes to sink a continent.
This is not necessarily true. The 'convenience' of the merged systems is that it provides content where there is none by artificially linking the two systems together. If you remove the grind inherent in pve gameplay to get the runes, are you really kililng anything bad? Do people point to that aspect of gameplay and say 'yes, this is what i love about this game'? If anything, this gameplay gives bad impressions to everyone forced to do it, thus making the gameplay 'added' detrimental to the games overall lifespan.

Yes i agree that pvp arenas need a serious overhaul and a lot more love than they're seeing. While the systems are linked, it also means that even if they did get an overhaul you'd need to spend hundreds of hours getting to a point where you can play in them competitively.

Mormegil

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

No, please, I hate flame wars.
The only thing I dont like about Xellos is that his post are neither constructive nor convincing. He masks poor arguments with his subtle aggressivity, thats what I think. I also think he's smart enough not to overdo it and not to go beyond a polite discussion.

Bamelin

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by eventhorizen
The suggestions are split the playerbase into PvE or PvP (by adding UAS to PvP only builds), split the player base into PvP only competitions with all skills etc, and a PvE where you need to 'grind' your character out then fight.

If you do that you kill the PvE aspect of the game, because people will reach level 20, realise its a competitive PvP game but they cant access competitive pvp, realise its not your average social mmorpg like WoW or Eve bin their PvE and go get maxed out pvp only chars.
Naturally this is what all PvE'ers fear. Two seperate ladders, one with UAS one without would create this situation:

The non UAS ladder would be a barren wasteland.

I think though that PROVES our (UAS PvP) point. People want a lvl playing field. People do not want to participate in a PvP environment where equipment and time played is a measure of success. We want to play where player skill is the deciding factor. UAS accomplishes this. This is the reason a UAS ladder would "kill" an RPG ladder. As EventHorizon said people will:

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If you do that you kill the PvE aspect of the game, because people will reach level 20, realise its a competitive PvP game but they cant access competitive pvp, realise its not your average social mmorpg like WoW or Eve bin their PvE and go get maxed out pvp only chars.
Thing is EventHorizon people have ALREADY realized "its a competitive PvP and they can't access competitive PvP".

This is why the PvP versus PvE argument is still raging across GW fan forums.

Redfang

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

Hope And Glory

W/Me

People crack me up.

+ You can get to max level in a weekend.
+ You can have two professions, and use skills from both.
+ You can respec your character on a whim.
+ You can change your secondary profession by doing a quest. And then change it again and again.
+ You can steal skills from mobs.
+ Money comes easy and anyone can have great weapons and armor with minimal effort.
+ You have henchmen to solo with.
+ The game will outright give you a PvP character.
+ They balance out the teams in PvP so you aren't outnumbered or taken by surprise.

And yet you have people say "it's too haaaaaard. It's not faaaaaaair. It's a griiiiind." You have got to be freakin kidding me?? I have played most of the major MMOs and I have to say anyone who claims these things could never make it out of the noobie yard in any of them.

AirOnG

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfang
People crack me up.

+ You can get to max level in a weekend.
+ You can have two professions, and use skills from both.
+ You can respec your character on a whim.
+ You can change your secondary profession by doing a quest. And then change it again and again.
+ You can steal skills from mobs.
+ Money comes easy and anyone can have great weapons and armor with minimal effort.
+ You have henchmen to solo with.
+ The game will outright give you a PvP character.
+ They balance out the teams in PvP so you aren't outnumbered or taken by surprise.

And yet you have people say "it's too haaaaaard. It's not faaaaaaair. It's a griiiiind." You have got to be freakin kidding me?? I have played most of the major MMOs and I have to say anyone who claims these things could never make it out of the noobie yard in any of them.
Redfang, it's extremely easy to defeat the PvE aspect of the game and to grind. The bone of contention is it is a significant and massive and completely pointless and boring timesink before you can play PvP competitively on a level playing field.

Edit: I take back that flame comment ^^

Mormegil

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

For different reasons, I agree with Xellos and others on the UAS matter: making the search for elite skills more compelling should be enough for me. Annoying people with random spawn bosses and alike is pointless.

Boris_714

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

Why would we ever want the company to spend its time and effort just to support 2% of the people wanting UAS.
I'm sure all of the rest of us want their resources spent on developing the wonderful game that we have now instead of wasting it on a few who cant get all the perks at once.
Personally, I care less about PvP,but since it is a part of this game I expect it to be developed too, But to add on new section at the expense of the real game for a few people??? Too bad go play somewhere else. No offense.

Willow

Willow

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

To reply to the original poster, I'm a hardcore PvEr. And I'm NOT against any UAS ladder that wouldn't affect me.

(I don't know too much about how the Hall of Heroes works or whatever... but if it can effect PvE, than it should only be effected by PvE. But that's not what the subject line of this thread at least is talking about.)

I'm all for people who don't want to play PvE not having too. I've yet to see anyone give a compelling argument as to why someone else needs to have a bad time. There will be people who genuinely want to play PvE- and those are the people I'd rather group with.

Willow

Willow

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

And to clarify: I think what most PvErs are against is UAS ladders that WOULD effect them. I think the hard part is just making such a ladder. Or maybe not. I don't understand all the PvP/PvE interactions.

Wesley Wyndam-Pryce

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

Clan Five Nineteen

N/

i dont like the grind

Red Locust

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

UAS ladder won't affect PvE? You're kidding me, right? All PvPers would be on the UAS ladder, all the competition would be on the UAS ladder, and people on the normal ladder would realize that all the work put into their character would be for nothing since the normal ladder would be barren.

I like to work on my character, change skills on the go, and screw around with different items and builds. I'd hate to have to delete and recreate a new character every time I needed something different. And anyways, do you really need to have every single skill in the game to unlock? As someone pointed out, it takes less than a week to get a char to level 20 and outfitted with the best stuff and skills. Capturing a skill takes minutes, if you're so big on PvP you should be able to get a lot of sigils (especially now that they've increased drops) and buy any goddamn thing you desire. Just stick to your class, you don't need to have a monk, a warrior, a mesmer and an elementalist, all level 20 and in prime PvP shape.
But of course, no matter how much people have, they always want more, it's human nature. God, even counterstrike doesn't let you have all the weapons at the touch of a button.

DarrenJasper

DarrenJasper

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

I kind of blame ANet for all this fighting.

They built a game that was to be a PvP game from the ground up. In order to make things a little meatier they added a PvE aspect that was essentially nothing more than an extended training tutorial for the PvP part of the game. Then, they realized they could snag a whole bunch more players by presenting the PvE as a game of its own.

Now we've got a bunch of PvErs running around a PvP game with inflated egos, thinking (as usual) the game was made for them, which is hilarious but unfortunate as it leads to all these flame wars.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

Now we've got a bunch of PvErs running around a PvP game with inflated egos, thinking (as usual) the game was made for them, which is hilarious but unfortunate as it leads to all these flame wars.
actually when you consider the amount of content outside of the arenas you have to wonder if the pvp areas are not little sandboxes in a much larger playgrond

and if you are going to say that the endgame is pvp fine

i will have my fun and put it aside until the next chapter comes out and enjoy that

i already consider that i have gotten my fun dollars worth out of the game and i havent passed the academy area yet so the rest of the game is gravy for me

Caco-Cola

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

College Station, TX

Kansas City Hotsteppers. Hawt!

Didn't read a single part of the thread.

You read one "OMG GIVE US UAS OMG OMG OMG" thread, you've read them all.


All I'm going to say is that the ONLY reason I don't like having UAS people segregated from the PvE people is the PvP community would just be split in half and dwindle and it just wouldn't be any fun IMO.

and that's the only reason. Other than that, if PvPers want instant, one hit wonder gratification than let them. No skin off my nose, I earned the skills I want.

AirOnG

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
UAS ladder won't affect PvE? You're kidding me, right? All PvPers would be on the UAS ladder, all the competition would be on the UAS ladder, and people on the normal ladder would realize that all the work put into their character would be for nothing since the normal ladder would be barren.
If the PvEers enjoy earning their gear and dedicated PvEers make up a significant portion of the community, wouldn't the PvE PvP ladder be perfectly fine? If this is not the case, that means many people dislike the PvE content compared to the PvP content and the current situation is limiting them. Maybe people want to compete in a completely level playing field.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

one basic problem with a split ladder
1 for unlock all
1 for everyone else

is the need to have 2 of everything or to keep one of those out of the official rankings and HoH

example of this is as follows

*xxx guild has won the favor of the gods for america* (UAS)
*yyy guild has won the favor of the gods for korea* (REGULAR)

*?? lets /roll for gods favor??*

Zubrowka

Zubrowka

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

I can't agree more. People here speak of PvE as though it's some price of admission that you have to work through. Personally, the cooperative PvE aspect of the game is why I'm playing. For me, doing quests aren't grind. If people don't want to do do them, why force them to. I don't want to team with them anyway. Grouping with people whose only motive is leveling is annoying.

Red Locust

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by AirOnG
If the PvEers enjoy earning their gear and dedicated PvEers make up a significant portion of the community, wouldn't the PvE PvP ladder be perfectly fine? If this is not the case, that means many people dislike the PvE content compared to the PvP content and the current situation is limiting them. Maybe people want to compete in a completely level playing field.
I don't think you understood me. It's not that there aren't enough PvEers to fill the PvE ladder, it's that everyone who finishes the campaign wants to go play with the big shots, where all the competition is at. And they won't be able to do that, since the PvPers will be on a separate ladder. So more and more people will start to ditch the PvE and play exclusively PvP, meaning the PvE quickly loses its appeal and falls in popularity. Pretty soon the PvE competitive play is dead and only "noobs" play in the PvE tombs. Nobody bothers to go through the missions, not enough people to fill PvE mission groups, RIP PvE.

AirOnG

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Locust
I don't think you understood me. It's not that there aren't enough PvEers to fill the PvE ladder, it's that everyone who finishes the campaign wants to go play with the big shots, where all the competition is at. And they won't be able to do that, since the PvPers will be on a separate ladder.
Couldn't they just as easily compete with the big shots on the PvE PvP ladder? I'd think they'd want to compete with other like minded people who believe one should have to "earn" their gear. I do concur that the true competition will probably end up on the UAS system (since it's actually fair and caters more toward casual PvP characters who can't afford eons of time), but I'd think that the RP ladder would have a more casual type of competition.

Red Locust, if there aren't enough people playing PvE to support it because people prefer PvP far more than PvE and you believe a slippery slope will occur, then isn't that the fault of the way the PvE is set up currently? Many people really don't like being forced to play an aspect of the game they do not want to.

How would PvEers feel if they were forced to play PvP? The only time they are ever forced in the entire game is for around 5 minutes switching from presearing to postsearing and for celestial sigils (which they can simply buy and not have to pvp ever for it). PvPers are forced to play PvE for literally hundreds of hours to have a level playing field.

DismalClown

DismalClown

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Warning: The only post I read was the first one, sorry I have ADD and I’m dyslexic.

I don't have a problem with what are you asking for, but the games designers may. They may want the "grind" an integral part of the game for a reason.

If you want to know what their reason is, you are going to have to ask them, but if I were to guess I would say it's to make the game more than just an Unreal Tournament with spells (and less jumping).

Gerbill

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

The Frozen plains.

The Llanowar Legion [LL]

Me/N

from what I've read.. not sure if it's correct.. PvP characters don't get all the weapons etc..

and the ladders combined is a lot better seeing how PvE-ers eventually will want to fight big shots from the PvP part.

PvP-ers don't want to walk all the way trough the PvE part to unlock everything.

solutions to this:
- Unlock EVERYTHING for the PvP even a custom weapon creator or something.
- Have the option for characters to start at lvl 20 with a certain Gear in the PvE part and gain acces to all the main cities, basicly a huge boost to the PvE part, but still like everyone having to find the uber gear.

AirOnG

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubrowka
I can't agree more. People here speak of PvE as though it's some price of admission that you have to work through. Personally, the cooperative PvE aspect of the game is why I'm playing. For me, doing quests aren't grind. If people don't want to do do them, why force them to. I don't want to team with them anyway. Grouping with people whose only motive is leveling is annoying.
It's not the missions or leveling that are the problem. It's collecting runes and elite skills by going through the same area literally hundreds of times doing the exact same thing over and over.

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

Quote:
I don't think you understood me. It's not that there aren't enough PvEers to fill the PvE ladder, it's that everyone who finishes the campaign wants to go play with the big shots, where all the competition is at. And they won't be able to do that, since the PvPers will be on a separate ladder. So more and more people will start to ditch the PvE and play exclusively PvP, meaning the PvE quickly loses its appeal and falls in popularity. Pretty soon the PvE competitive play is dead and only "noobs" play in the PvE tombs. Nobody bothers to go through the missions, not enough people to fill PvE mission groups, RIP PvE.
Ok, so follow that logic a bit further. What you're saying is that guild wars pve doesn't have any sort of compelling reason to play it after you finish the game.

If it can't stand on its own, why is being rammed down the throats of anyone who wants to play the portions of the game they like (pvp)? If you can't see yourself, as a person who likes pve, playing the game after you finish the missions - how do you think people who hate playing through pve more than once feel now?

This is like saying you need to beat the single player portion of doom 12 times before you can pick up the rocket launcher in multiplayer.

NiknudStunod

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2005

I agree with the OP. I had more hours played during the last BWE weekend then I have had from release to present day. I have not only stopped playing completely but I have also stopped friends from purchasing the game because of this one issue. The guild I was part of in WoW has not bought the game because of my warning and that is over 35 people. Now this is a very small % when it comes to world wide sales but I am sure there are a lot of people put off by the grind issue.

Bamelin

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2005

Well here is what Gaille had to say regarding UAS:

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...9&page=3&pp=25

(scroll about half way down the page)

Celes Tial

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Pirates of BBQ Bay

Mo/Me

Two seperate ladders would still make PvE feel pointless. And splitting the PvP community cant be the way to go.

Whats so wrong with -earning- and unlocking skills (including elites) through pure PvP play? I agree they should add this option, perhaps a skill tree to gradually unlock with fame points or something.

Celes Tial

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Pirates of BBQ Bay

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarous
This is like saying you need to beat the single player portion of doom 12 times before you can pick up the rocket launcher in multiplayer.
Thats why Doom is Doom, and GW is GW.

I dare say that the majority is content with the current system, but would like to see an option to unlock skills through pure PvP play added.

For every unhappy PvPer who quits, there is at least (IMHO, more) one player who appreciates the way things are, and would quit over an UAS button. It is impossible to satisfy everyone.

Bamelin

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2005

What reason would a PvE'er possibly have to quit over a UAS button (provided there was a dual ladder -- one UAS and one RPG)?

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

It makes them feel unloved