For PvEers: Why are you against an UAS ladder that does not affect you?

Wow, PvE just an added gimmick. Laughing now......wait....wait...I think im stopping....Why would Anet spend so much time making a story driven RPG if PVP is the only thing that matters. They could of finished the game years ago.

PVE is a bigger part of the game than the PVP side. PVP is nice and all. Both PVE and PVP play there parts in this game.

This game is balanced towards pvp not pve which means that pvp is the driving force of this game. The PvE is the side quest you have to do to compete in pvp. The day they reinstate the UAS button is the day I put GW back on my comp. If I wanted to PvE I would play EQ2 or WoW. I came here to pvp.

I love how PvErs decide which part of the game is more integral by... counting up the areas. "Hey, there are 3 dozen mission areas and only SIX ARENAS!!! PvE must be WAY more important!" lol.

Glad someone gets it.

The majority of the players will have more time played in "that 1 room" then in the other 90% of the game.

The reason I still post here is because I was hooked on the game in BWE and I still have hope that the game will be like it was then.

Unlocking skills is one thing.
If that's all you want, more power to you.
Giving you access to items that you haven't EARNED is another problem in and of itself.
The problem with just unlocking UAS is that you'll be severly gimping your PvP character by not having the weapons available to those that actively upgrade their equipment to better serve them in PvP.
I personally have no issue with the skill being available to folks that don't want to play the game for the "story" side of it.
Much like Tribes, Counterstrike etc.
I wouldn't mind having it available to test out build ideas in PvP.
Your request is simple enough, as stated before however; you'll be destroyed by guilds that take the time to get the items that will lead to your downfall.


Mind

I'm going to quote myself
Now I'm going to quote someone for ArenaNet
Why are two groups of game players arguing about a point that isn't up to us anyway? When did us gamers get employed by ArenaNet to be on the game design comity?

I could not possibly care less about PvP or its ranking system. With that said, I think you should have to earn your abilities just like the rest of us. Stars knows, it has taken me a while to get the groove about what it is to be a good mesmer, and how best to combine mesmer and monk to be a good all-around player, someone that can be counted on in a pinch.

Why should or would you expect anyone to grant you all your skills at once so you can pwnz0rz better when the rest of us have to earn them? I see no reason other than the same old 'NOW NOW NOW' mentality... meh, no sympathy here for that, sorry.

In closing -- it used to be that PvP players took pride in earning their abilities and honing their skills. Today it's just a bunch of screaming id's who want the fastest road to the "73mp£473 0ƒ Ð00m" and frankly, ruining the PvP experience for everyone involved. One of the reasons I no longer bother with PvP of any sort, frankly.

You want skills? Earn them like the rest of us.

So many responses, that I'm not going to read every single one, forgive me if my reasoning has already been mentioned.

The way I see it, splitting it in two would be bad. First off, you have your people who do PvE, unlock their skills, join a guild and GvG, and can only play other PvE people, while PvP's can only play other PvP's.

So what happens when the PvE wants to try out a new build for their PvP? They can only test it in the PvP aspect, and can't practice it with their guild, thereby throwing off the real perception of how it can be used. Then the person has to go through the game from start just to see if this experimental build works, and instead of playing with the characters they want to play PvE with, have to play with this build.

I pvp and I pve, and I see this move as limiting the PvErs, and making them have to restart. They may not mind playing, but that doesn't mean they want to start all over again just to see if this works, and just like you want to play how you want, they have the right to play how they want.

Sure, they could just create the PvP version and keep it on the PvP ladder, but then they couldn't play with their guild. And what's the fun in that?

Regardless of what you think of the grind (since this isn't an "OMG too much grind" thread), having a separate UAS ladder will kill the PvE. To have an option of unlocking all skills for a PvP character might or might not be a good idea, depending on the balance issues that may arise, but to separate the whole community in two would be a stupid move that I'm sure ArenaNet won't make.

Originally Posted by Grimpaw
In essence, UAS is in the game *already* - however it is only available to those with gobs of time. Making it easier to access UAS just makes it more casual-friendly and thus more fair to all types of players.

The way I see it, characters should be able to unlock skills in pvp. Perhaps for every 5 wins you get (not consecutivly), you get a skill point that you can use to unlock a skill for the pvp characters. However, to balance it, maybe there's a ladder in the skills you have to follow, a la Diablo 2 style, and you can capture elites from other players.

Perhaps in the Droknars forge and Lions Arch arena's, since you get Guild Rankings for GvG and Sigils for HoH. It could add a reason to pvp in those arena's, which I know some people are looking for.

Well, another possibility would be to allow the classes to "copy" skills from those they have defeated.... say, every X number of battles, if there is someone who is the same primary/secondary in the opposing team, you can choose one of their skills/elites to make your own.

That way, there is not only more 'oomph' to winning, but those who are exclusively PvP can learn from one another.

Elite skills should, I think, remain the way they are... but once they're 'in the system' so to speak, they can be 'looted' just like any other.

I know that would be spicy -- anticipation of finding a new elite skill on someone I just killed.

Well... if I were still doing PvP. (grin)

Hello everyone,

For anyone reading this thread, you might notice the large number of deletions. Most of them were for an off-topic discussion on flaming, and others were just unconstructive, period. If you really want a discussion on the merits, benefits, uneffectiveness, and/or futility of flaming, please start a new thread.

Please keep this discussion free from flaming. I don't want to hear "Grind threads have evitable flaming," "It's their fault," "He started it," "My dog died so I have to take it out on someone else," or "lololol! You're silly!" Please please please stay on-topic, and when you post a reply that you think brilliantly smashes the opposing argument, KEEP PERSONAL ATTACKS OUT OF IT.

Also, please give reasons for your opinion -- people really can't read your mind, so a one-line argument is.. well.. lacking to say the least.

Let's all keep it constructive.

Thank you,
Aria

I like these newer posts with the compromises, but i still feel the need to post about this.

Ok, i am mainly a PvE player, and i cant count the number of times ive been told to "not compare this to MMORPG's since its totally new" Well, STOP COMPARING THIS TO FPS, (pardon the caps) Its not counter strike, this is a new breed of game. What kind of genre is it considered? To me it looks like an RPG, which kind of RPG dosent really matter. MMORPG, CORPG, even single player RPG's all envelope one idea... character development, as you progress, new things are unlocked/opened up. Even in 3rd person action adventure games (the legend of zelda, devil may cry, etc.) which imo are not RPG's there is a passage of progression where your character gets better over time, there is no "levels" on them, mearly.. upgrades. Now this game does have a level, no matter how insubstantial, it does have progression, to me it looks very much like a RPG, albeit a new refreshing type of RPG, its an RPG none the less. You need to EARN what you want in end game, it shouldn't be given to you. Now earning this through PvP or PvE is still up in the air, honestly i wouldnt mind being able to unlock skills through PvP so long as it was on par with unlocking it via PvE but an UAS button would destroy this as an RPG.

Anyways thats my 2 cent's make of it what you will, flame or do not it dosen't matter to me, ive spoken my part.

*edited for typos, pardon me if i missed any its abit late here *

Even you will understand why, someday. I have hope for you.

Maybe we'll talk again after you have finished the storyline in only 2 weeks.

I can finish a full fledged story book in a couple of days. What's your point?

The devs want this to remain as one game. Not 2. Bringing the UAS button back is only going to solve this in the short term. Have you thought of any of the potential long term effects? PvE is not an after thought or a side game as some like to call it. The amount of content is far more than what PvP currently have to offer. Both the PvE and PvP requires tweaking and improvements and the UAS button is not an option. It'll split everything into 2 and if any one side is disintegrating, it'll bring down the other as well.

Warning WoW PvPers about the "grind" in GW's PvP? I'm amazed..

uh what is there to do in PvE once you Finish all the Missions, have top notce gear and have Finished all the Side Quests ?

But your assuming PVP is perfect. Even right now, people complain about air eles, tombs, v-blocking, etc etc. The more seperated the systems are, the more demands and expectations there are. It doesn't matter if there are small portions that makes people happy, it'll force the players to move on and whine about something else. At this point, people complaina bout air eles, but they don't go OMFG THIS IS RIDICULOUS IT IS PRIORITIZED OVER GRINDING, no, people will wait. What happens when grind problem goes away via a fasttrack solution? All the other problems that are even harder to work out become immediate. Then you have the fact that since the solution was never a good one, it creates problems of it's own.

And who have you convinced? I'm sorry, but next your going to tell me Ensign's math is wrong. Stop posting things that you can't prove.

If it's really that easy, get all the item/rune unlockments and I want perfect item unlocks. I'll give you a month. Then if you do, I'll buy your account for 200 dollars. Wanna try without grinding?

2%? Where did you get this figures from? I didn't know we lived in the Matrix and you had direct control and could spy on every players mind.

That's beautiful. That's like saying the world doesn't want to buy apples, they want to buy oranges.

Agreed. Beyond tombs and GvG, arenas are jokes. 4v4 Team arena has the potential to be respected and covetted just as much as tombs, yet isn't because it has no prize, no rank, no nothing. The CTF arena was awesome, and showed potential for multiple scenarios which could lead to more variety in builds. Where else can you use a W/R runner build? Nowhere.

Plus, PVP would then be extremely picky on balance. Look at games like wc3. Anything that has more factors then starcraft is pretty much deemed as impossible to balance. Guild Wars has alot more factors then wc3. People pick at classes and skills that don't belong to their strategy or their preference, people start getting more aware, people get more pissed and angry because their senses evolve past that of the developers and therefore are angry that the developers cannot keep up. Look at warcraft 3. It became pathetic because Blizzard failed to keep up with the balance. By the time it even became decently balanced, everyone left. All because PVP had much more to it then PVE. No one cared about campaigns, no one cared about tower defense unless you were a casual non-pvp player. Hell, even DOTA got pickied to the point where EUL couldn't keep up, and that isn't even an official map of the game.

Exactly. The real meaning behind her post was that Anet never planned guild wars to be perfect. You can't possibly expect a game to live forever (unless your starcraft) in pvp, so you have to figure out what kills a game. At this point, people leave games from either being overly tired from grinding, or plain imbalances. One comes from RPG type games, one comes from PVP type games. Sadly, Guild Wars is a hybrid of both, therefore having TWO weaknesses. How do you combat two weaknesses? By having the two aspects work together. Otherwise, they die just like any other game.

Don't take this personally, but this is exactly the kind of statement that makes people not want to even read the rest of your post. You basically just said "my way or the high way nah nah nah". Why would people take you seriously? You've already concluded that you are 100% for your side and that even if hell froze over you would still call hell the hottest place there is.

Actually, is is completely dependant on the balance issues and replayability. Look at games like magic the gathering, only the most hardcore of players or new players play that game. If you cannot keep the game interesting, it will fail. PVE keeps it alive in that you don't have to PVP, you can walk around towns, help some people, be stupid. I don't care. The grind is ironically what slows down people from DEMANDING balance changes, because people are so caught up farming runes, they have no time to realize what's imbalanced and what's not. Even the best of the best can't possibly know all the exploits without having all the stuff unlocked. I'm simply saying that you should give Anet a chance to use this time to fix the balances, because the grind is currently their only excuse if they all of a sudden fail to fix a balance issue. Multiple screwups lead to a large portion of gamers leaving, just look at warcraft 3.

Don't any of you remember those conspiracy theory things? Where it's better to have a labelled and clear enemy, then starting to dig for one from the inside out killing your side in the process. Illuminati or something right? I don't remember, point is, grind is the common enemy, the terrorists of today, if you take them out, people are gonna start complaining about stuff that you aren't ready for. Anet is a company, their survival comes first.

I am not sure what you are trying to say with that last quote.

He means to say WoW PVP requires alot more grind. And it does. But WoW isn't GW, it doesn't have high expectations by it's fanbase, because it was never advertised as such.

Yikes. I haven't been following these sort of threads too closely. I see that I've been missing a lot.

Anyway, I'm in the interesting position of having played PvE almost exclusively despite being very interested in the competitive, PvP side of the game thanks to problems on my end. I think that the game in its current state definitely needs changing in some way to so that players don't have to spend hundreds of hours unlocking skills, runes and upgrades. However, I do not like the idea of having a separate UAS ladder. I do not want to play in a "show off how much you've grinded!" ladder, especially not if the main competition is going on elsewhere. I also don't want to just disgard my roleplaying character for a UAS PvP character, as I think that is unnecessary when other solutions can be found. Frankly, if a UAS button was implemented, I would rather they were thrown into the current PvP with everyone able to enter.

The Virago's idea about PvP skill acquisition sounds interesting. I also liked an idea I heard about being able to buy an expensive item from an end game NPC that unlocks runes and upgrade parts it is applied to (as put forward in this post). I'd much prefer something like that rather than splitting the community down the middle.

Its debateable which is the worst grind. WoW grind may of been longer but it wasn't as boring. It is the endgame of WoW that is lacking not the grind. Guild wars has the opposite problem where the begining game is one long bore but the endgame is exciting.

Only because WoW lasts longer therefore it is harder to realize the repetitiveness

The only people who would not bother to read my post are the people who are already doing precisely what you're trying to accuse me of here... i.e., "already concluded they are 100% for their side only, etc."

What you've done here is called projection.

Rather than try and tell me what I am thinking, perhaps you could just read what I wrote. It really is much more telling than reading into what I wrote, promise.

Then, when you manage that, perhaps you'd care to tell me why it is that PvP players should not have to earn their skills just like the PvE players do.

I'll be waiting.

edit: Actually, I think letting anyone engaged in PvP potentially unlock a skill would be a great way to cross-pollenate between PvE and PvP. Win-win.... fresh meat for the PvPers, possible skills for PvEers (regardless of who has favor at the moment, added incentive to give PvP a whirl/chance) and something to smooth over the increasingly jagged schism between the PvP and PvE crowd.

Sure. Your post is gibberish that has been trotted out upteen times by pve fanboys and shot down over and over again.

PvP players take no pride in getting skills. It gives them no sense of accomplishment that they've had to spend 200 hours to unlock all the skills they needed. All it does is make them angry and not like the game. Thats the entire point of splitting the game in 2, since the two playerbases have totally different fun requirements. Repeating: you leave the game as is for the pve diehards who like repeating the missions until their eyes bleed, and you have seperate districts for a pvp UAS ladder and arenas.

The two possibly valid arguments i've heard in this thread against a UAS ladder are: 1.The game is so far from perfect that having this obvious crap mechanic is taking the brunt of the hatred and giving time for a.net to balance the pvp better. 2.Everyone would stop playing pve if it wasn't forced on them.

2. I just find amusing. This argument is tantamount to saying 'yes, pve sucks'. If no one would play it given the choice between pvp and pve, then why in gods name do you think it a good thing that we're forced to do it? This is the same thing as saying you need to shovel a whole stinking pile of crap for a long time to get to a diamond at the very bottom. If you could get to the diamond without the crap, would anyone shovel it?

1. Is somewhat more compelling. It however requires a.net to have come up with this wonderful little plan to divert attention from their 'lacking' pvp system. This seems to basically mean adding more pvp functionality in terms of new arenas, rulesets and whatnot; balance in the game is damned good, there are few if any overpowered skills and most people are talking about a few tweaks to numerical values to achieve balance rather than wholesale nerfing, its an accomplishment a.net should be proud of.

My response to this is that a.net is hemmoraging players with this plan that would otherwise just suspend playing till new content was available. I know i've personally stopped playing games that had fairly obvious flaws only to pick them up later after a patch had fixed the most glaring problems, and since guild wars isn't p2p adding this stupid grind requirement is wholly unnecessary. Even if a.net 'fixes' pvp and adds more content, tweaks the balance, they'll still have this ridiculous time hump you have to pass before you can compete evenly, and that is whats going to drive and keep away a gigantic portion of the pvp crowd.

Sorry, didn't read past this. Anyone willing to use the term 'pve fanboi' oviously hasn't progressed to a point where discussion is feasible.

Please try again... or not. No matter here.

you sir have just invalidated whatever points you possibly had.

Wish there was an ignore function in this forum

edit: Sweet glory, there is. User CP->Buddy/ignore lists

As I've thought more and more about this topic I've come to a conclusion.
(Hey, I'm at work on Memorial Day, what more do I have to do with my time?)
The problem is in your word choice in the Thread Topic:

For PvEers: Why are you against an UAS ladder that does not affect you?

For starters, why do we need to make a distinction between PvE and PvP for this thread to work?

It is this seperation that has been the downfall of almost every game I've played. The PvE vs. PvP war-mongering is as old as dust. When the first Non-PvP world, shard, realm or whatever you want to call them was labeled for "Care Bears" it was a dark day for on-line gaming.

Declaring some folks to be Care Bears while the others dubbed themselves Elite has been a bone of contention in almost any game allowing both PvP and PvE worlds. Mind you that PvP is available in most PvE worlds as well.

Please do not automatically assume that everyone that PvE's isn't into PvP, this would be naive and would hurt rather than strengthen the GW's community. That isn't to say that those that choose to PvE rather than PvP shouldn't take into consideration what strictly PvP individuals want out of the game.

I bring up this age old struggle because to truly understand all aspects of GW's you have to understand that many people pursue the PvE aspects of the game to better enhance their PvP prowess.

Unlocking all availabe skills to a designated area like a strictly PvP character that has access to only that area is a worthwhile venture in my mind.
As I stated in my previous post I'd love to be able to test builds out for fun.

I ask only that there isn't this line drawn between people that only want to PvP and those that PvE so that we can PvP with the items and gear we've chosen to pursue.

Mind

one person said they have more than 250 hours on their main character alone not counting a pair of level 20s

assuming he started on the 27th of april that is more than 8 hours a day spent on only his main character without considering the others

all of this time spent so he can get ready to have fun when he is properly equipped with every top item in the game

why cant they play with what they have now for fun and add to it bit by bit over time?

they would be having fun doing their pvp and still building up the character over a few months

why cant YOU have a UAS button?

let me answer the question with a question.....why don't YOU play the game and stop the cryin

That would be "Ma'am" and gee, lemme just cry myself to sleep.

Mindbullets, you're absolutely right. It is very amusing that the only two people to complain that someone is holding an opinion which varies from theirs invariably feel the need to try and make things personal.

Small minds talk about people. The rest of us talk about ideas.

You're right about the ancient war Mind, it's had battlefields in nearly every MMO... Trust me, I don't like having to break out "carebear", I don't like trotting that out.

But consider this, all of you. If you went to the theme park and wanted to play laser tag, but the man told you that the only way you could get a rifle that shoots straight was to play whack-a-mole, I think you'd be a might ornery. Especially if, while you were doing it, you had to put up with a lot of whack-a-mole fanboys trying to tell you how awesome whack-a-mole is and deriding you for wanting to do anything else.

I don't like being called a "griefer" (that ancient beast of legend, impossibly large) for wanting to engage in a competitive sport, or being told I'm somehow less mature for not wanting to test my skill against redundant and painfully predictable challenges.

So far as I can tell, there is a small contingent of folks who really don't care about the game, they're not here to do anything other than PvP. There really isn't "a problem" with this other than that those who subscribe to this perspective have (apparently) missed an important reality:

Skills and upgrades, not PvP, are the reward for playing the game.

As mentioned elsewhere, I think it would be interesting and fun to be able to "Loot" skills (copy, not take away) from others in PvP. But I completely understand the decision to make PvP players earn their skills. It is the only way that winning in the context that exists in this game could matter.

So far as I can tell, there is a small contingent of folks who really don't care about the game, they're not here to do anything other than PvE. There really isn't "a problem" with this other than those who subscribe to this perspective have (apparently) missed an important reality:

PvP, not skills and upgrades, is the reward for playing the game.

As mentioned elsewhere, I think it would be interesting and fun to be able to "Loot" skills (copy, not take away) from others in PvP. And I completely don't understand the decision to make PvP players earn their skills. Player skill, not time invested in menial tasks, should be the only way that winning in the context that exists in this game matters.

Hahahahahaha. I would've missed out on that gem if you hadn't torn it to shreds jasper, thank you.

This fails due to the simple reality that it is not the PvE player who is complaining about having to unlock skills and runes.

Thanks. Please drive through.

Ah yes, so true. You guys have never, ever complained loudly about not having ready access to certain areas only attainable through PvP. You did not set the forums ablaze with your incessant kvetching about how you "needed" a certain mechanism thats only purpose was to allow you to participate in a competition you, by your own admission, wanted no part of.

The thing that separates our skills from your guild halls is that we actually intend to use what we get. And I don't just mean for a tea party.

Ok then, I want you to tell the PVE community to shut up and pay 100k for each sigil. If PVPers can't complain about PVE, PVE sure as hell can't complain about PVP. 100k Sigils MINIMUM from now on. Superior Vigors+100k standard. Wanna try it? Let's see if you enjoy farming now.

Why would the pve player who enjoys the pve aspect of the game complain? If you want to pve then I say all the power to you. I am a pvper with no interest in partaking in pve. I am not forcing you to do anything you don't want to do why are you trying to force me to.

I don't care if they want to seperate us into 2 different groups so we can only compete with like minded individuals. I just want to be able to play the part of the game I enjoy.

What online games last the longest in terms of years played by there playerbase? RTS games and FPS games. The Best MMORPG starts to lose its playerbase when the next bigger and better game comes out. The best FPS and RTS games continue to have a thriving comunity long after there competition released something better.

Can you imagine having to complete the single player missions over and over again in any genre besides mmorpgs just to compete with other players? Giving players the ability to be casual and still compete is the reason people will be playing games like counter strike, starcraft, and battlefield 1942 long after they are released.

A little comedy on what BF 1942 would be like if it was like GW's =o/

Hopeful pvper say's, "Hey you guys want to help me take down that general down so i can get the rocket launcher?"

Disgruntled pvper say's,"we must of done this mission 100 times, but the boss with the swiss army knife keeps spawning instead!"

The average PvEer say's,"You guys don't need the rocket launcher to compete in pvp just use your pistols on the tank, you will kill it eventually."

The avid grinder say's, "You guys don't deserve the rocket launcher unless you keep doing this mission over and over again like I did."

I know a few people who played Magic the Gathering in competitive settings... And since everyone thinks GW ought to be similar to another game, why not comparing it to the one game developpers mentioned as an inspiration?

It seems it was possible to make some good, efficient Magic build with very few different cards, not a lot of money, not spending hours trading them (the equivalent of farming/grinding).
Of course many players did otherwise, were trading for hours, bought lot of cards, and trying to get all of them so as to build all possbile builds if need be.
But if one was sticking to a few focused decks, there were no actual need for that. You could have very efficient builds with a minimal investment in time and money. And no need to farm them all. A good solid build is a good solid build.
Someone playing a "counter" build in Magic would need only so many cards, and many of them were really easy to get by. If you want to play a countering Mesmer, is there really any skill that you need and don't have like right away?
At a tournament, you only got one build, and that's it, all the other unused cards you have are sitting home, useless.

There were one reason for some competitive players to have all cards possible, so as to build all decks; and that's metagaming. Metagamers would design decks to counter most popular decks so as to increase their chance in tourney.
Since popular decks would change quite a lot, metagamers would change their deck quite a lot.
Oddly enough metagamers would face a few problems when dealing with people... who kept their build simple and sticked to basic: just like, well, if you play the anti ele build in that topic , you're metagaming, and you might need some oddball stuff to do that (am pushing it a bit to the extreme with that one ). On the other hand, some basic build will just kick the crap out of it (I mean like... any half not even decent warrior...). Sticking to simple build is part of metagaming in a way . That's the first good reason that may make metagaming difficult in GW.
Also, I think guessing trend in GW so as to secondguess opposition is going to be a little more difficult than in Magic. That's going to make metagame a little more difficult.

You don't need the skills you think you need. You may already have what you need to build solid good build, and that would be good enough.

Louis,