The Update: Why We See More Complaints Than Praise

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 00:16 - 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitdragon
So what you are saying is basically "SCREW THE CASUAL PLAYERS THEY DON'T MATTER"?
PEACE PLEASE

the casual player is the most important player and it is those who are playing the game and having fun instead of complaining

example is Stumpys pve brother who has discovered template casual pvp and is having a great time playing to unlock things for pve

CASUAL ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT NOT THE LEAST

i never meant that other impression to come through at all

i hope this makes it clear where i stand on casual players

arredondo

arredondo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 00:19 - 122
Pure, skillful competition is influenced only by the choices and abilities of the competitiors involved, not the system requiring hoop jumping to access the stuff you need to win. That is what I describe and compare here... nothing else. With everything named, there is no influence by the rule committee as to what gear you not allowed to start with if your opponents are allowed to use it.

Just because GW PvP is different from 99.9999999999% of the thousands of serious competitive activities out there is not a good excuse. Full UAR/UAS please. And get rid of the 24 Attribute Refund requirement in towns.

Red Locust

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 00:51 - 123
Yeah well you're not gonna get full UAS/UAR with this game. Guild Wars is an RPG, and like every other RPG, has some form of character progression. If you want an FPS, go get CS or UT2004 or something. I'd recommend Battlefield 2, but even that requires playing online to unlock the better weapons. But you don't hear anyone complaining. Go figure. Perhaps if you spent all this time playing the game instead of arguing, you'd actually unlock something.

Siren

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

02 Jul 2005 at 01:03 - 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by arredondo
Pure, skillful competition is influenced only by the choices and abilities of the competitiors involved, not the system requiring hoop jumping to access the stuff you need to win. That is what I describe and compare here... nothing else. With everything named, there is no influence by the rule committee as to what gear you not allowed to start with if your opponents are allowed to use it.
But how is that uber-specific criteria reliable? It can be applied to virtually anything and everything. It's specific to the extreme extent of becoming a generalized point of view. By that standard, nearly everything can be criticized. Is that indicative of everything being crap, or is that indicative of the evaluation criteria being crap?

Quote:
Just because GW PvP is different from 99.9999999999% of the thousands of serious competitive activities out there is not a good excuse. Full UAR/UAS please. And get rid of the 24 Attribute Refund requirement in towns.
But the thing is, you can't disregard that difference like that, because it's an incredibly important distinction to understand--it's too important to ignore. And I think your reply here speaks volumes about your particular mindset: you just don't want to acknowledge (or hear) anything that threatens your point of view.

JasonJLore

Core Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 01:13 - 125
Quote:
If I know that my opponent is going to come with an all Air Ele/Monk team, I should be at fault for not stocking up on anti-elemental armor or the Mantra of Lightning stance for my Mesmer (or any other gear for a strat that I decide will work). It should not be determined by the rules of the system that we all participate in, which keeps me from accessing this gear because I haven't jumped through enough hoops for the "league". Everyone should start with all options, and may the best team win from there. That's the only time that 100% pure skill takes over, when the "league" doesn't influence the match before it starts.
If your pit crew is made up of 2nd grade Catholic school girls who can't even remove a tire, that is YOUR fault. The league doesn't make you start weak and drive 10,000 laps to improve your crew. Guild Wars does this. The tiers you describe are part of real-world competition in all other activities when made a bit clearer:
Uh, hmm, he's right guys. I've changed my position on the subject. With the advent of these two "simplified" statements I must admit that ANet has not done their homework in this area. In trying to be both an RPG and a PvP they have sacrificed fairness for overall satisfaction. However, I will say that in order for them to be competitive in the gaming market it was/is necessary. Rightly or wrongly they had to make this choice. Please disregard my comment about Peyton Manning. I've always liked Tom Brady better anyway.

arredondo

arredondo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 01:15 - 126
Not just my point of view. Any of the thousands of other activities played for hundreds of years could have your point of view in supporting this, but they don't. There's a reason for that... the requirement of forced hours and activity to have access to gear has NOTHING to do with promoting skillful play between opponents.

Whether I can beat you or not in competition should not be influenced (slightly or greatly) by anything in the rules that allows the use of gear for one side, but not the other until they get through some mandated activity requirements.

We can disagree if Arena.net's system is a good one or not as individuals, but I'd rather choose to let competition history and common sense back up my position.

arredondo

arredondo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 01:25 - 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonJLore
Uh, hmm, he's right guys. I've changed my position on the subject. With the advent of these two "simplified" statements I must admit that ANet has not done their homework in this area. In trying to be both an RPG and a PvP they have sacrificed fairness for overall satisfaction. However, I will say that in order for them to be competitive in the gaming market it was/is necessary. Rightly or wrongly they had to make this choice. Please disregard my comment about Peyton Manning. I've always liked Tom Brady better anyway.
You are a wise man, and the wonderful world of logic warmly welcomes you.

Siran Dunmorgan

Core Guru

Join Date: Dec 2004

Carmel, CA

02 Jul 2005 at 01:39 - 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by arredondo
As well thought out as that post was, I'm amazed at how far it misses the mark. Your summary of my stated (and repeated ) position is incorrect.
Okay... I think we're getting somewhere.

Let me try to isolate our disagreement:

For the sake of the discussion, I postulate a prospective Guild Wars player: let us call her 'Alice'. For purposes of this discussion, a '+' after a letter denotes an action that may be taken more than once:

Alice sits down at her computer and installs Guild Wars.

Having done so, she double-clicks the "Guild Wars" icon that appears on her desktop to start the game. (A)

After some time, has her first taste of PvP at the Academy (C), and experiences the Searing. She runs The Great Northern Wall (D). Tooling around Ascalon City, she finds her way to the Arena, and enters her first Arena battle (E+).

Liking the taste of PvP, she generates a PvP character, and tries the Competition Arenas (F+) and Tombs battles (G+). Her performance in Tombs gets her noticed, and she joins a pretty decent Guild (H).

Alice and her Guild engage in a number of rated Guild-vs.-Guild matches (I+), and eventually reach the top of the ladder. Throughout all of this, she has exited the client (J+) and entered it again several times (K+). Note that the game itself—running as it does on ArenaNet's servers—continues to run, regardless of whether Alice's client is connected to it.

Now, my question is this: at what points is Alice playing Guild Wars? And at what points should she have access to the same in-game skills, equipment, and upgrades as everyone else in the game?

My understanding of your position is that players should have access to the full panoply of in-game skills and equipment at all times (F), (G), and (I).

My position is that they are all equal at all times (A), and everything from that point forward for any given account represents a single persistent instance of play, regardless of the number of occurrences of (F), (G), (I) and (K).

Let me know if my understanding of your position is incorrect; and don't feel shy about asking for clarification on mine. If you think you have a sufficient understanding of my position, also don't feel shy about explaining why I'm wrong.

—Siran Dunmorgan

JasonJLore

Core Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 01:58 - 129
With all due respect Siran you're turning the discussion into an academic debate with a heavy influx of theoretical posturing. The argument is simple enough. ANet has advertised - heavily I might add - that GW is a "competitive" MMO. Which means that PvP takes precedent over all else.
If you and your team are in a strict PvP environment, ALL things should be equal, and the team who is more skillful and more resourceful should have the advangtage. Not because of better armor, or weapons, or runes but because they are just plain better. arredondo is correct in his assessment. No professional team is discouraged, or held back in any way from using the best equipment and training facilities available. Now it's true that one owner may have more money to spend on a team than another but that is the way it is in life. There will always be the haves and the have-nots. But the league of teams involved always makes sure that as far as equipement and training go, ALL ARE EQUAL or at least have the opportunity to be equal.

Siran Dunmorgan

Core Guru

Join Date: Dec 2004

Carmel, CA

02 Jul 2005 at 02:54 - 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonJLore
With all due respect Siran you're turning the discussion into an academic debate with a heavy influx of theoretical posturing. The argument is simple enough. ANet has advertised - heavily I might add - that GW is a "competitive" MMO. Which means that PvP takes precedent over all else.
If you and your team are in a strict PvP environment, ALL things should be equal, and the team who is more skillful and more resourceful should have the advangtage. Not because of better armor, or weapons, or runes but because they are just plain better. arredondo is correct in his assessment. No professional team is discouraged, or held back in any way from using the best equipment and training facilities available. Now it's true that one owner may have more money to spend on a team than another but that is the way it is in life. There will always be the haves and the have-nots. But the league of teams involved always makes sure that as far as equipement and training go, ALL ARE EQUAL.
As far as turning it into a theoretical debate, quite the opposite—at this point, I'm trying to bring the discussion back to the specifics of Guild Wars, rather than indulge in hit-or-miss comparisons with various sports.

And I agree that PvP does take precedence: that was certainly the focus of pre-release testing, to the woe of ArenaNet. But, while it takes precedence, the narrow context of individual battles is not the whole of the game. Even if it were, I would argue that the effect of any individual battle should carry over to further battles—perhaps the principal differentiator between sport and war.

Quite honestly, I'd like for it to go further than that, to the point where it's possible to lose access to an upgrade or skill once you've got it—but I know that's not a fight I'm going to win here.

—Siran Dunmorgan

P.S. This isn't about me being right and you being wrong, or vice-versa. I happen to think that we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion about what the game should be—but discussions like this serve to get all of us thinking about why we believe what we believe.

Oh—and I'd like to add that I'm not part of the 'PvE faction' either: I'd still be happy if the game were PvP only. What I'm actually advocating is that the game 'Guild Wars' reflect wars, rather than sports.

CaptainGuru

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Mop bucket

W/Me

02 Jul 2005 at 03:22 - 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siran Dunmorgan

But we would all do well to try to understand that we—and in this I include the developers of Guild Wars as well—are faced with a living game, subject to the same 'growth pains' of any living thing, and, like a living thing, we cannot be wholly certain into what it will grow.

—Siran Dunmorgan

You actually work for ANet?

Vorlin

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 03:28 - 132
You know, at this point I'd be interested in getting some cold hard data about the effect of equipment in PvP between top of the line guilds. Now, I'm not talking about 'one guild has a newbie setup, the other maxxed out', what I'm interested is just how often a 'pretty good' setup wins vs. a 'maxxed out' setup, among, say, the top 20 guilds. I'm also curious as to what percentage of players in the top 20 guilds are using maxxed-out or nearly-maxxed-out sets.

Without significant amounts of hard data (i.e. -not- anecdotal data) it's really hard to know if this is really as much of an issue as some people believe. Maybe it is even -more- of an issue. It would probably take an implementor to answer this for sure, someone who could scan the database and track wins/loses vs. level_of_gear for the top 20 (or even top 40 if you want a bigger sample) guilds.

It's important for the imps at GW to know this information, because if it does turn out that massive farming is needed to be competitive in, say, the top 20 rankings, then they'd probably want to change -something-, as that's definitely not what they want based on their game description. Then again, it might very well turn out that this is merely the misperception of a few players ("I lost, and it must be my gear, because I know in my heart that I'm ultra-leet!!!"), in which case the imps would be quite justified in ignoring it.

Siran Dunmorgan

Core Guru

Join Date: Dec 2004

Carmel, CA

02 Jul 2005 at 03:38 - 133
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siran Dunmorgan
But we would all do well to try to understand that we—and in this I include the developers of Guild Wars as well—are faced with a living game, subject to the same 'growth pains' of any living thing, and, like a living thing, we cannot be wholly certain into what it will grow.
You actually work for ANet?
No, alas!

Which is why I explicitly included the developers 'as well' in that statement: so that it was clear that I was not limiting my point to the player community.

I don't believe that the developers have any more clear an understanding of what Guild Wars will become than the players do. They happen to have a finer level of control over it on a week-to-week basis, but they appear willing to implement broad swaths of it in a more or less organic fashion in response to player interests.

As a result, I don't believe any of us really know what Guild Wars will look like in, say, two years time.

—Siran Dunmorgan

Edit: I should amend that "no" slightly: I do have a contractual agreement with ArenaNet beyond that of the Guild Wars EULA in that I'm an alpha tester. But the alpha tester agreement is very explicit in that I am not in any sense an employee or member of the ArenaNet staff.

BE|Dac

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 06:54 - 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by arredondo
Everything he said

amen

.

BE|Dac

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 06:56 - 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siran Dunmorgan
Okay... I think we're getting somewhere.

Let me try to isolate our disagreement:

For the sake of the discussion, I postulate a prospective Guild Wars player: let us call her 'Alice'. For purposes of this discussion, a '+' after a letter denotes an action that may be taken more than once:

Alice sits down at her computer and installs Guild Wars.

Having done so, she double-clicks the "Guild Wars" icon that appears on her desktop to start the game. (A)

After some time, has her first taste of PvP at the Academy (C), and experiences the Searing. She runs The Great Northern Wall (D). Tooling around Ascalon City, she finds her way to the Arena, and enters her first Arena battle (E+).

Liking the taste of PvP, she generates a PvP character, and tries the Competition Arenas (F+) and Tombs battles (G+). Her performance in Tombs gets her noticed, and she joins a pretty decent Guild (H).

Alice and her Guild engage in a number of rated Guild-vs.-Guild matches (I+), and eventually reach the top of the ladder. Throughout all of this, she has exited the client (J+) and entered it again several times (K+). Note that the game itself—running as it does on ArenaNet's servers—continues to run, regardless of whether Alice's client is connected to it.

Now, my question is this: at what points is Alice playing Guild Wars? And at what points should she have access to the same in-game skills, equipment, and upgrades as everyone else in the game?

My understanding of your position is that players should have access to the full panoply of in-game skills and equipment at all times (F), (G), and (I).

My position is that they are all equal at all times (A), and everything from that point forward for any given account represents a single persistent instance of play, regardless of the number of occurrences of (F), (G), (I) and (K).

Let me know if my understanding of your position is incorrect; and don't feel shy about asking for clarification on mine. If you think you have a sufficient understanding of my position, also don't feel shy about explaining why I'm wrong.

—Siran Dunmorgan
Take a H, for Hand, and stick it up your A, for arse, and pull your H+, Head out and speak english.

BE|Dac

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 06:59 - 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siran Dunmorgan
As I understand it, Arredondo is pointing out two things:

First, that he is not comfortable with—or, possibly, does not understand— the concept of explicit n-tier metagaming.

Second, that he believes that ArenaNet has in some sense abandoned its stated principles by implementing a game in which time spent is more important—more of a determining factor, if you will—than skill.

I'm going to try to analyze that a bit more, so that we can be certain that we know whereof we speak:

From the perspective of the character involved in a PvP match, there are three games: the present game in the sense of PvP battle. The first-tier metagame, representing the acquisition of the skills and equipment by means of which the battle is carried out, and the second-tier metagame, containing the environment in which the player functions, i.e. the real world.

As far as I can determine, Arredondo does not believe that what I refer to as the second-tier metagame is part of the game at all, because it lies outside the scope of the defined rules of the game.

For example, I believe that he would claim that the engineering differences between Formula One race cars are irrelevant to his argument because the rules of conduct of a Grand Prix race do not address matters of engineering, i.e., a driver is not required to perform a certain action or number of actions in order to have better wheels added to his car.

That this does in fact hold true for the engineering team responsible for building and maintaining the car is irrelevant, Arredondo would argue, because it is not a factor involved in the conduct of the race itself, or in the rules of the Formula One commission.

By defining the first-tier metagame—with respect to PvP battle—to take place in the virtual world rather than the real world, ArenaNet has placed the first-tier metagame in scope of 'the rules', just as if the F1 racing commission were to begin mandating distinctions between engineering teams. That the commission might only be recognizing distinctions that already exist is, again, irrelevant; the question is whether or not they were in scope of the explicit rules.

He has consistently shrugged off the assertion that, essentially, all games involve preparatory grind with the counterassertion that they do not explicitly codify this fact in their rules.

Well, I agree: they don't.

Welcome to the new world, where functions that once were a part of the real world have moved into the virtual. Expect to see more of this, as the scope of online environments continues to expand and interpenetrate the real world.

Now, with respect to his second point, the question of whether ArenaNet has been deceitful in asserting that 'skill > time spent', I don't actually believe there is any doubt: a PUG of unskilled players with who have been playing the game continuously since release will still fall before a team of n0 or Fianna armed only with 'template' characters.

The issue that Arredondo actually means to address is that, given a series of matches between two top guilds—I select n0 and the Fianna for this example—who are otherwise of equivalent skill, the team with the better equipment will prove victorious somewhat more often than the team with less, where completely even levels of skill and equipment would tend to produce a 1:1 win:loss ratio.

For myself, I would assert that skill is still the determining factor—but I'm willing to work with Arredondo's assumptions.

However, I refer again to the metagame: I believe that ArenaNet's assertion that 'skill > time spent' is inclusive of the first-tier metagame, as well as of PvP battle.

Arredondo and those like him are not willing to accept the first-tier meta-game as part of the game, and so believe that a means of removing the first-tier metagame entirely, i.e., an 'unlock all' button, is the correct solution to the game's woes, and believe that by implementing an explicit first-tier meta-game—as opposed to leaving the meta-game entirely in the real world, as is the case with most competitive games—ArenaNet has done a disservice to adherents of Guild Wars competitive play.

For myself, I would rather that Guild Wars included even higher order meta-games, such as a more fully realized campaign system whereby it were possible to actually wage war—as opposed to a series of stylized skirmishes—between Guilds within the explicit rules of the game.

—Siran Dunmorgan

P.S. Incidentally, I don't believe that Arredondo is an idiot, nor well-described by any of perjoratives that have been applied to him in this thread. Indeed, I would suggest that he has been remarkably patient with his detractors.
holy shit dude

Seriously, wtf do you want the characters to have sex and have babies, then have a DNA system whereby the genetic traits of the character are determined to better match how breeding interferes with the effectiveness of a character in combat.

okay..

there are games, we want them to be fun... that is the bottom line.

Siren

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

02 Jul 2005 at 08:27 - 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by arredondo
Not just my point of view. Any of the thousands of other activities played for hundreds of years could have your point of view in supporting this, but they don't. There's a reason for that... the requirement of forced hours and activity to have access to gear has NOTHING to do with promoting skillful play between opponents.

Whether I can beat you or not in competition should not be influenced (slightly or greatly) by anything in the rules that allows the use of gear for one side, but not the other until they get through some mandated activity requirements.

We can disagree if Arena.net's system is a good one or not as individuals, but I'd rather choose to let competition history and common sense back up my position.
Again, you're dodging the issue here and missing the point.

"Competition history" (a term so vague that it has no meaning here) means absolutely nothing. You're taking issue with a quality (objective usage of the word) of role-playing games that has been in effect pretty much since the conception of the genre. In almost every PvP-focused RPG in existence, you have the need for character development and "gear" acquisition. That's why they're called role-playing games (although I dislike that term from a theatrical standpoint). Because you're playing a role...building a character from the ground-up.

If you look at recent games, you see this. I've not played Evercrack, but I have played SWG, and that game (pre-CU) was a notorious offender for the "need" for uber-gear to PvP. If you weren't built up insanely high and well-armored, forget about taking on someone with only a few skills higher than you.

But really, that's how it should be. If you don't have a particular piece of armor, or a particular weapon, or a particular skill, you should expect to get demolished if worse comes to worst. Is this a bad thing? Not really, no. It's just how things work.

In FPS, same idea applies. An autoshotty in CS is going to largely be more effective than a pump-action, and the AWP is considerably more effective than the Scout. Unless one is wily in combat, one will probably lose.

In UT, same idea. There's a slim chance you'll survive when you take a rocket launcher in the face when you spawn.

And it's just the way things work. A higher damage weapon is going to do more damage than a lower damage weapon.

But is that doing nothing to promote skillful play between opponents? I'd say not necessarily. Going up against a fully maxxed or even partially maxxed team is going to be rough, but it just requires you to attempt to outthink your opponent. Yes, you may very well get smacked around like a red-headed stepchild, but here you're talking about going up against powergrinders, basically...people who have devoted large portions of their lives to doing nothing but farming for gear.

So how is losing to them meaningful enough to warrant your reaction? I'm not saying you did lose to fully decked out teams or anything, but I'd like your perspective on that. So somebody loses to a bunch of powergrinder-fueled players. Big deal. It doesn't mean the game is broken. It just means that powergrinders skew the game.

And ultimately, it comes down to what RPGs are: stat builders. From the early text-based games, through Final Fantasy, through MMORPGs, to Guild Wars...that stat building has always been there in some form or another. That's why I think it's downright silly to get this pissed over it in Guild Wars.

That's why I think it's downright silly to bring in real-life sports events to help you criticize a design approach of RPGs, because while real-life sports have a certain type of "stat building," that's something much different than clicking a mouse again and again. Athletes build physical muscle tone. They endure strength training so they can jump higher, run longer and faster, etc.

Philosophically, one could draw a parallel in that regard, but when examined more closely, that parallel ultimately falls apart, because gamers are not subjecting their bodies to that kind of training, nor are their characters' "training" remotely close to what athletes do, because of the illusion of gaming.

Lane

Lane

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Dallas

Council of Awen[CoA]

Mo/Me

02 Jul 2005 at 15:16 - 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonJLore
If you and your team are in a strict PvP environment, ALL things should be equal, and the team who is more skillful and more resourceful should have the advangtage.
I really don't see where you are coming from when you say that all things must be equal for the game to be fair. You've focused on sports alot... do you think all that equipment they use is free? If you really think about it, there's no way in hell those athletes and the sports group in general would be playing if each of them didn't spend alot of time and money to get there. Athletes aren't just given anything they want... they earned that, and so did the team they work for. The coach wasn't some guy who just decided to be a football coach one day so they gave him the job... he built up experience, spent lots of time, and used plenty of resources to get there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonJLore
No professional team is discouraged, or held back in any way from using the best equipment and training facilities available.
100% incorrect. That stuff is not free (which is the only way it would really be equal).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonJLore
Now it's true that one owner may have more money to spend on a team than another but that is the way it is in life. There will always be the haves and the have-nots. But the league of teams involved always makes sure that as far as equipement and training go, ALL ARE EQUAL or at least have the opportunity to be equal.
How in the world is that not the case in this game?! Everyone has the opportunity to get whatever they want, and now you can do that very thing while only playing the game in one particular way if you want to do it that way.

EDIT: You are wrong about the league making sure that training is the same for everyone... you are going too far in trying to make athletic sports match up to your made-up scenario. I have never heard of a sporting league having rules on how much training a team must do (or when or how they must do it) in order to compete

Tuna

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Dark Horizons

02 Jul 2005 at 19:55 - 140
Let me put a different view on this topic. I am missing eight (mostly useless) superior runes, a handfull of weapon upgrades, and about 20% of the skills. It would be fair to say that I have more junk unlocked than pretty much everyone. To everyone saying that you don't need to unlock everything etc. you don't know what you're talking about. Yes, you can win, but I can win more. Far more. I have roughly 80% of everything unlocked and because of that have more flexibility than many of you will ever have. The access to options lets me use my skill to its full potential.

Even though I already grinded almost everything out of this game I still vouch for UAX. Why? Because it gets old seeing a bunch of people using the same old things in tombs etc. that quite frankly suck. As much as I like desimating noobs it gets kind of old. I'd rather have even or roughly even competition than continuely bulldozing wa/mo premades. Vote YES for quick unlocks/UAX.

A word on analogies:
I think most of you are inccorectly using them in relation to GW. Unlocking junk in Guild Wars is in now way synonymous with skill. You can't compare practicing a sport to unlocking skills. You can, however, compare practicing a sport to practicing GW PvP. Most sports don't have anything that can be compared to the unlocking process except for prehaps funds, but that gets kind of sticky as you could compare that to the $50 price tag on GW. The bottom line is the guild who grinds the most in PvE will win the most in PvP. However, that is not to say that they cannot be beaten. The new patch does not solve this problem as I hypothisize that it is quicker to achieve UAS by doing PvE. Runes and weapon ugrades will be much faster but I would agrue that skills are more important.

Kali Ma

Kali Ma

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/Mo

02 Jul 2005 at 21:30 - 141
Quote:
If I know that my opponent is going to come with an all Air Ele/Monk team, I should be at fault for not stocking up on anti-elemental armor or the Mantra of Lightning stance for my Mesmer (or any other gear for a strat that I decide will work). It should not be determined by the rules of the system that we all participate in, which keeps me from accessing this gear because I haven't jumped through enough hoops for the "league". Everyone should start with all options, and may the best team win from there. That's the only time that 100% pure skill takes over, when the "league" doesn't influence the match before it starts.
Why doesn't anybody understand this example? So many intelligent people participating in this thread, why are so many resistant to acknowledging this simple truth? Bashing on Arredondo and picking apart his analogies doesn't change the truth of what he's saying.

I like both PvE and PvP. However, I've never been able to get into PvP really seriously, and just jump in casually because right now I'd guess that around 60% (probably more) of the available skills, runes and upgrades are locked to my characters, even with having played PvE regularly since release date.

It would be so much more fun if I could spend my time designing builds and strategies with my teammates to counter other builds and strategies. Yet I try to do what I can with the predesigned templates and what my characters have unlocked, and have had some enjoyable experiences doing so.

Some would likely ask, "well what's the problem then?" Well, consider the following example, which is akin to one I've experienced...

A guild does some research and recognizes that carrying a Protection Monk and a Domination Mesmer built around a specific skill set for each would be a potentially good strategy to combat the guild they're going up against in GvG, or that it's at least worth trying and practicing for awhile. But wait... none of the guild members have focused on those attributes with their PvE characters, and the skills they want to use are locked. On top of that, the runes and upgrades designed for those characters are locked too.

Ok, so what are their options?

1) Don't play those characters or try that strategy.

2) Go into PvE and either create new characters or change one of their high level character's secondary and go searching for the skills, runes, and upgrades to unlock.

3) Unlock and purchase all the stuff needed through PvP play over the next several days, weeks, months or however long it takes.

Wow, that's a lot of work to get to a point of being able to just try out a strategy that they're not even sure is going to work.

And that's where all of the sports analogies come into play, which are getting lost in semantic deconstruction and falling upon deaf ears. In any sport, if a team or player comes up with a strategy they would like to try, as long as it falls within the rules of the game, there are no league imposed restrictions that prohibit them from trying out that strategy.

If a new NBA franchise wants to try employing a full court press, the league isn't going to come in and say, "ok, you can start to practice and apply the full court press after the team hits 1000 shots, or 1000 free throws, whichever comes first."

If a new entrant at Wimbledon decides she wants to apply a serve and volley tactic against her opponent, the WTA isn't going to tell her, "ok, you can begin practicing and using the serve and volley after having won 1000 games, or 50 matches in tournament play."

In both of these examples, it's up to the player/team and their skill and practice in applying these techniques in the game as to whether they succeed or fail, win or lose.

If I could practice an Inspiration Mesmer, I might be really good at playing that character effectively in a team. But I will probably never know to be quite honest, because the skills and upgrades are locked.

Quote:
You can't compare practicing a sport to unlocking skills. You can, however, compare practicing a sport to practicing GW PvP.
Exactly.

Red Locust

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 22:00 - 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali Ma
Why doesn't anybody understand this example? So many intelligent people participating in this thread, why are so many resistant to acknowledging this simple truth? Bashing on Arredondo and picking apart his analogies doesn't change the truth of what he's saying.

I like both PvE and PvP. However, I've never been able to get into PvP really seriously, and just jump in casually because right now I'd guess that around 60% (probably more) of the available skills, runes and upgrades are locked to my characters, even with having played PvE regularly since release date.

It would be so much more fun if I could spend my time designing builds and strategies with my teammates to counter other builds and strategies. Yet I try to do what I can with the predesigned templates and what my characters have unlocked, and have had some enjoyable experiences doing so.

Some would likely ask, "well what's the problem then?" Well, consider the following example, which is akin to one I've experienced...

A guild does some research and recognizes that carrying a Protection Monk and a Domination Mesmer built around a specific skill set for each would be a potentially good strategy to combat the guild they're going up against in GvG, or that it's at least worth trying and practicing for awhile. But wait... none of the guild members have focused on those attributes with their PvE characters, and the skills they want to use are locked. On top of that, the runes and upgrades designed for those characters are locked too.

Ok, so what are their options?

1) Don't play those characters or try that strategy.

2) Go into PvE and either create new characters or change one of their high level character's secondary and go searching for the skills, runes, and upgrades to unlock.

3) Unlock and purchase all the stuff needed through PvP play over the next several days, weeks, months or however long it takes.

Wow, that's a lot of work to get to a point of being able to just try out a strategy that they're not even sure is going to work.
No game is based 100% on pure skill. Everything involves equipment, be it your hardware or in-game items. Sports? The more money you put into the team, the better it is. Car racing? The better the car, the better the outcome. FPS games? The better your hardware the better your performance. RPG games? The more time you put into your character the better he is.

GW is actually quite lenient in this respect, in that you can easily unlock 2 classes and play at 100% potential. If you split up the professions among your guild, you can compensate for everyone not having unlocked all skills. Then you're at 100% competitiveness. Your guild's failure to do so is not the fault of the game as much as it is the fault of the guild for not having organized this.
RPGs tend to not rely on your hardwars, but rather your in-game items. That's the way it's always been, and that's the way it's gonna remain.

Kali Ma

Kali Ma

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/Mo

02 Jul 2005 at 22:09 - 143
Quote:
Your guild's failure to do so is not the fault of the game as much as it is the fault of the guild for not having organized this.
Guess I should have not edited out this part of my post...

So if someone in that guild gets a little frustrated by it and says so on the forums here or anywhere else, this is the common response they get...

'Tough luck, get used to it. If you don't like it, don't play. Stop whining. You're guild isn't serious, so who cares? You're a noob for not focusing on those skills in the first place. STFU. Noob. Whiner. Don't let the door hit you on you're way out. Your guild sucks. You're an idiot. Loser. On and on, etc..."

Um... ok then. Really helpful, thanks.

RMThompson

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 22:10 - 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali Ma
If a new NBA franchise wants to try employing a full court press, the league isn't going to come in and say, "ok, you can start to practice and apply the full court press after the team hits 1000 shots, or 1000 free throws, whichever comes first."

If a new entrant at Wimbledon decides she wants to apply a serve and volley tactic against her opponent, the WTA isn't going to tell her, "ok, you can begin practicing and using the serve and volley after having won 1000 games, or 50 matches in tournament play."
OMG I am so sick of you trying to use sports as an anology, it doesn't work. First of all, you can't just BE an entrant into Wimbledon or the NBA, you have to PURCHASE the required equipmant first.

You can't just BE succesful at PvP, you have PURCHASE the required equipment first.

Here, instead of money, it's now Faction, and instead of buying balls your buying skills.

Instead of money, it's GOLD, and instead of rackets your buying runes or equipment you need.

Skills in the game are NOT equivalent to SKILLS in real life. Stop trying to make them the same. Skills in the game, meaning spells and attacks, are EQUIPMENT.

The unlock is there to REWARD players for still playing the game. Anet is a business, and if they gave you want right away, youd stop playing the game sooner. This way you WANT to play longer and harder to gain the EQUIPMENT you need. NO REAL LIFE EQUIVALENT? O FRIGGIN WELL! GET OVER IT!!!!

It's really as simple as that. If you don't like it, don't play it. Guild Wars isn't the only game, nor is playing it a requirement. I don't like Worlds of Warcraft, and I don't play it.

See how easy that was?

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 22:12 - 145
a serious question for pvp people only

will a skillful person with a template 20 character have a better than 50-50 chance of beating a less skillful competitor with a template 20 who has more time on their clock so to speak.

please answer yes or no if you can under only the above conditions

thank you

Kali Ma

Kali Ma

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/Mo

02 Jul 2005 at 22:26 - 146
Quote:
Let me know if my understanding of your position is incorrect; and don't feel shy about asking for clarification on mine. If you think you have a sufficient understanding of my position, also don't feel shy about explaining why I'm wrong.
Frankly, that post is the very meaning of obfuscation. It's a simple thing here, really. Unlock everything for PvP. Make it about skill in application, not unlocking through time played.

Quote:
O FRIGGIN WELL! GET OVER IT!!!!... If you don't like it, don't play it.
/sigh... guess I saw that one coming.

arredondo

arredondo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 22:30 - 147
Wow.... scientists can come here to freely study those that can comprehend a point and those that can't. Even if you disagree 100% of what we're saying about all of this, there's no reason in the world why people continue to post stuff like the following:

Quote:
OMG I am so sick of you trying to use sports as an anology, it doesn't work. First of all, you can't just BE an entrant into Wimbledon or the NBA, you have to PURCHASE the required equipmant first.

You can't just BE succesful at PvP, you have PURCHASE the required equipment first.

Here, instead of money, it's now Faction, and instead of buying balls your buying skills.

Instead of money, it's GOLD, and instead of rackets your buying runes or equipment you need.

Skills in the game are NOT equivalent to SKILLS in real life. Stop trying to make them the same. Skills in the game, meaning spells and attacks, are EQUIPMENT.

The unlock is there to REWARD players for still playing the game. Anet is a business, and if they gave you want right away, youd stop playing the game sooner. This way you WANT to play longer and harder to gain the EQUIPMENT you need. NO REAL LIFE EQUIVALENT? O FRIGGIN WELL! GET OVER IT!!!!
If you are going to debate the point, try at least understanding the point! I'll try again to explain with responses like these. They do NOT address what we are saying.

YES you have to purchase equipment in pro sports. YES you have to practice long and hard just for a 1% chance to face the pros. YES if your team wants a facility to practice in they must pay the big $$$.

BUT... (this is where the eternally confused must pay reeeeeeally close attention):

What is keeping one from acquiring these things?! Is it the facts of life as it relates to the participant, or is it the LEAGUE RULES preventing one from being equal with his opponents?

THAT is what you can not ignore in any response here because it is the ONLY POINT BEING MADE! No serious competitive activity, except Guild Wars PvP, has it in the rules that you have to jump through 1,000 hoops for the "league" before you can start with the same stuff as the opponent.

Thousands of activities, sports, board games, over the course of hundreds of years... they ALL let you come in with whatever the opponent has if you can get it. If you can't? Oh well... grind away on your own to get it. But when you have to grind to please the "league" for the stuff you need, you are not playing in a 100% skillful contest.

The outcome (slightly or greatly) has been pre-influenced by the league that let's the ones who monkey danced for them 10,000 times come in with stuff you need, but can't have because YOU didn't monkey dance 10,000 times too.

Skills in the game are not the same as skills in real life... I said that a few pages ago. The skils icons in the game are important "gear" that you need to succeed. In real life, if you need gear the LEAGUE doesn't make you jump through 1,000 hoops to get it just so you can be prepared for your opponent who has that gear. In Guild Wars, you can not start with all the gear you need. you are forced to please the league through hoop jumping.

You may agree with the system (which is against the logic of every skillful competitive activity ever made), but you can not continue to debate this if you ignore the main point CONTINUALLY being made.

arredondo

arredondo

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 22:33 - 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loviatar
a serious question for pvp people only

will a skillful person with a template 20 character have a better than 50-50 chance of beating a less skillful competitor with a template 20 who has more time on their clock so to speak.

please answer yes or no if you can under only the above conditions

thank you
That has nothing to do with this debate. The league shouldn't impose the boundaries around one competitior while the other is allowed greater access to needed gear. This isn't about percentages of wins for one or the other, it's about competitive common sense and having full strategic options in front of you at all times..

Siren

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

02 Jul 2005 at 22:37 - 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali Ma
If I could practice an Inspiration Mesmer, I might be really good at playing that character effectively in a team. But I will probably never know to be quite honest, because the skills and upgrades are locked.
And thus you play PvE. PvE is just as much a training in team dynamics as PvP is, so if you want to practice as an Inspiration Mesmer yet find yourself unable to in PvP...you've got PvE to do it. Along the way, you unlock skills, become accustomed to the build, tweak it accordingly...it's the same thing as PvP.

It's not as if PvE is some mindless fight against a mindless AI...the tactics and strategies my guild mates and I are developing as we progress through PvE will serve us well in PvP when everyone in the guild is ready to get in there.

No amount of PvP Elitism will change the fact that a Level 15 Necromancer/Warrior will have trouble their first few times in Druid's Overlook until they begin to understand how the enemies work, and how to counter the enemy skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali Ma
So if someone in that guild gets a little frustrated by it and says so on the forums here or anywhere else, this is the common response they get...

'Tough luck, get used to it. If you don't like it, don't play. Stop whining. You're guild isn't serious, so who cares? You're a noob for not focusing on those skills in the first place. STFU. Noob. Whiner. Don't let the door hit you on you're way out. Your guild sucks. You're an idiot. Loser. On and on, etc..."

Um... ok then. Really helpful, thanks.
I've not been using that response, and when I do get annoyed, it's because of people who aren't demonstrating any remotely minimal understanding of why Guild Wars is constructed how it is...why it's an RPG and not "real life" sports. The design approach and purpose of Guild Wars is entirely lost on them because they cling to some idealistic view of how everything should be according to their point of view--and not how everything is according to "reality" (reality in quotations because games are an illusion, not real reality).

*and refers to Red Locust's post*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Locust
No game is based 100% on pure skill. Everything involves equipment, be it your hardware or in-game items. Sports? The more money you put into the team, the better it is. Car racing? The better the car, the better the outcome. FPS games? The better your hardware the better your performance. RPG games? The more time you put into your character the better he is.

GW is actually quite lenient in this respect, in that you can easily unlock 2 classes and play at 100% potential. If you split up the professions among your guild, you can compensate for everyone not having unlocked all skills. Then you're at 100% competitiveness. Your guild's failure to do so is not the fault of the game as much as it is the fault of the guild for not having organized this.

RPGs tend to not rely on your hardwars, but rather your in-game items. That's the way it's always been, and that's the way it's gonna remain.
He (she?) summed it up nicely. This is largely how RPGs have been constructed for 20-some years. There has always been a requirement to acquire gear, skills, abilities, etc, regardless of what RPG you're playing--or really, regardless of what kind of video game you're playing. And this is why Guild Wars is a brilliant concept: it meshes together various design approaches/purposes yet keeps the core of an RPG.

RMThompson

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 22:40 - 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by arredondo
No serious competitive activity, except Guild Wars PvP, has it in the rules that you have to jump through 1,000 hoops for the "league" before you can start with the same stuff as the opponent.

serious competitive activity???

Are you joking? Guild Wars is a VIDEO GAME. It's not hockey, baseball or even weightlifting!

Kali Ma

Kali Ma

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/Mo

02 Jul 2005 at 22:49 - 151
Quote:
And thus you play PvE...
Um... I've already invested over 500 hours into PvE, thanks. I'd rather not go through the entire thing from scratch yet again just to test out an Inspiration Mesmer build in PvP. And I really dont' want to screw up my main PvE character by switching her secondary just so I can unlock five skills.

Quote:
serious competitive activity???

Are you joking? Guild Wars is a VIDEO GAME. It's not hockey, baseball or even weightlifting!
Then why do you even care? Why is a universal unlock for PvP so threatening, that it causes players to scream, debate and insult other people? It's just a video game, right? So why can't those of us who would like to see an even more competitive system than there is already, have our point of view and side of the discussion without people like you completely going off on us, hmm?

There are lots of threads regarding this topic, and not all started by the same people. So it's obviously something that at least a certain demographic of the player base is interested in discussing. Yet almost every one of these threads attracts griefers who just want the everyone to stfu, and who are usually either rude or abusive with their language in saying so.

Kinda making this place hard to be around anymore, what with all the mean sprited responses and posts...

"Fine, don't hit your ass on the way out..."

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

02 Jul 2005 at 23:13 - 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali Ma
Um... I've already invested over 500 hours into PvE, thanks. :
no offence meant just a question please.

500+hours equals over 7.5 hours a day.

were you exagerating for effect or could you actually sustain that pace for 2 months?

ps

if so do you consider yourself a casual gamer?

Siren

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

02 Jul 2005 at 23:43 - 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali Ma
Um... I've already invested over 500 hours into PvE, thanks. I'd rather not go through the entire thing from scratch yet again just to test out an Inspiration Mesmer build in PvP. And I really dont' want to screw up my main PvE character by switching her secondary just so I can unlock five skills.
So...over 500 hours into PvE...unlocked what you estimate to be 60% of the total...I presume you unlocked other character skills (different than your main)...so how in that 500 hours did you miss five skills for an Inspiration Mesmer build? From your post it sounds like you have access to other Mesmer skills (why else would you be working with any Mesmer build to begin with?), but you didn't play Mesmer enough in 500 hours to unlock five skills? Unless I'm missing some really subtle detail, that just sounds really weird.

And plus, if you didn't play Mesmer at all in PvE...why should you be granted UAS/UAR? It's basically "I never played that profession then, but I want to play that profession now, so give me everything that I missed." That's what your example is when we remove all the extraneous post.

Regarding arredondo, dude, I'm sorry, but the UAS/UAR was a Beta-only feature. It was never going to be in the final game. It was never one of the fundamental design concepts of the game. I'm not about to pretend that I was sitting with ANet during development meetings and so forth, but it's plain to see what they were really going to do, and it's plain to see why we don't have the UAS/UAR feature: because Guild Wars is still an RPG at its core.

You're screaming bloody murder about how unlocking skills violates every principle of serious competition...but you're screaming bloody murder about something that is very clearly designed in a way as to adhere to the principles of an actual RPG, principles including character development, stat-building, skill/ability acquisition, etc.

I've been disregarding your main point (that unlocking defeats serious competition) because in the context of Guild Wars...that main point is irrelevant. It doesn't even have bearing here. You've been repeating this mantra of "unlocking is inappropriate for competitive play," and in any other game genre, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But not in this genre.

Quote:
In real life, if you need gear the LEAGUE doesn't make you jump through 1,000 hoops to get it just so you can be prepared for your opponent who has that gear. In Guild Wars, you can not start with all the gear you need. you are forced to please the league through hoop jumping.
And there's a reason for that, one that makes perfect sense:

Guild Wars is an RPG, a video game. Real life sports are real life sports.

You're "made to jump through hoops" in GW because largely, that's what RPGs are: working on a scale to achieve greater abilities and skills.

You created this thread to voice concern. Fine. But the new PvP unlocking system does take skill--in fact, it requires skill--for the player to unlock what they want for PvP. There are variables in play, for sure. Only a fool would deny that. And sometimes, a match just doesn't go your way due to a crappy team, or something as simple as an off-night.

Sometimes the other team may be better equipped--although, with the PvP unlock system, I doubt an opposing team would all be maxxed out...why else would they be playing if they were also trying to unlock items and such? That's now the only point for the competitive arenas, after all. No xp is being granted or anything, only faction points...so...you get the idea.

But sometimes, you do just get outplayed. It does happen...and getting outplayed by better strategies, better organization, etc., is a loss based on skill, and a win in that situation is a win based on skill. Winning and losing in the arenas and GvG is still largely dependent on skill, with a few variables thrown in.

Kali Ma

Kali Ma

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/Mo

02 Jul 2005 at 23:44 - 154
Quote:
no offence meant just a question please.
None taken...

Yeah, that's a lot. When I ran /age on all my characters, and then approximated the time spent on all my initial test characters that never made it past pre-searing, it was a little surprising to be honest. I don't really know exactly what the total hours are, but it's somewhere between 450 and 550, yeah.

And no, I don't average 7.5 hours a day. I'd say on a normal day it would be 2 to 4 hours, and I hardly ever go on for less than 2 hours at a time. But there have been a few weekend stretches now where I'd go for like all day, several days in a row. And that can add up pretty fast. I'd guess that at least 180 of those hours were spent in around five 3-day marathon runs, of at least 12 hrs a day. So it might seem like a lot... and it is... but it's not a daily thing.

I've always considered myself a casual player in the past and with other games, but have to honestly own up and say that with GW the whole casual thing just doesn't apply anymore. My hope was to get this and be able to play it casually on weekends only... not. It's a lot of fun, and I'm definitely hooked, on the PvE side at least. The PvP hasnt' been as fun yet, and I feel I've illustrated why here. Most of my character designs so far have been "out of the box" builds since I enjoy being a little different, and not available as one of the pre-designed templates so far. And unlocking skills/upgrades hasn't been the main focus of play, since I actually enjoy PvE for what it is.

That's why comments like, "if you dont' like it, don't play it" or "get lost" or "you need to play more" aren't taken very well. I enjoy this game, the community, and the people I've met. And I've invested a lot of time and energy into my characters and the community, in various ways. That's why I feel like my opinions, however unique or in the minority they may be, have just as much right to be expressed and respected as everyone else's.

I'm a GW player, and proud of it. I'm gonna be here for awhile, so get used to it. Just like all the comments suggesting that if I don't like it, then I don't have to play... well if someone doesn't like what someone has to say, they don't have to participate in that thread. Just because someone disagrees doesn't give them the right to be derisive, insulting and demanding.

And to any of the moderators who happen to be reading this, I'm really disappointed that the whole "No Flaming" thing isn't taken more seriously around here. It should be changed to "No Flaming, unless it's a post by someone who doesn't like something about the game, then it's cool."

Kali Ma

Kali Ma

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/Mo

02 Jul 2005 at 23:46 - 155
Quote:
I presume you unlocked other character skills (different than your main)...
Nope. Just the ones for my primaries and secondaries that I needed and wanted. I don't play PvE to unlock skills and hunt down stuff for PvP... I play it because I enjoy it.

Quote:
unlocked what you estimate to be 60% of the total
You misread my post... I said 60% or more is not unlocked. I wonder how many other things in my posts were "misread" as well.

Siren

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

02 Jul 2005 at 23:57 - 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali Ma
Nope. Just the ones for my primaries and secondaries that I needed and wanted. I don't play PvE to unlock skills and hunt down stuff for PvP... I play it because I enjoy it.

You misread my post... I said 60% or more is not unlocked. I wonder how many other things in my posts were "misread" as well.
Don't get me wrong. I play because I enjoy it, too. I just can't resist starting new PvE character combinations to goof around with. =p

I've actually got three characters that cover all the professions, and then I just started a Monk/????? just for the hell of it.

About that 60% thing...

Quote:
I'd guess that around 60% (probably more) of the available skills, runes and upgrades are locked to my characters
It was a tad ambiguous to begin with. Obviously, nobody here is using completely perfect grammar, syntax, etc., but "locked to my characters" has more meanings than just "unavailable to my characters."

In one usage of the word, "locked," that phrase could very well mean "binded to my characters," which would then imply unlocking. You have items and such essentially assigned to your characters--which is very similar to the philosophy behind the unlocking system: unlock an item, rune, whatever, and it becomes available to all your PvP characters. The items and runes and so forth become binded to your account, like the new faction points. They're not character-exclusive; they're account-wide.

Kali Ma

Kali Ma

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/Mo

03 Jul 2005 at 00:23 - 157
Quote:
In one usage of the word, "locked," that phrase could very well mean "binded to my characters," which would then imply unlocking.

Talk about messing with semantics to not have to admit you were in error, geez...

The grammar used in my sentence was lucid and unambiguous. I've never heard anyone around here who refered to skill and upgrades as being "locked" to mean anything other than "not unlocked."

Ok, whatever... you're right. You win. I don't know what I was thinking. How's that? Feel better now?

Tuna

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Dark Horizons

03 Jul 2005 at 00:38 - 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMThompson
OMG I am so sick of you trying to use sports as an anology, it doesn't work. First of all, you can't just BE an entrant into Wimbledon or the NBA, you have to PURCHASE the required equipmant first.
I bought the equipment needed to play the game already. Its a cute little box with a 100 page manual and a cd.

Quote:
You can't just BE succesful at PvP, you have PURCHASE the required equipment first.

Here, instead of money, it's now Faction, and instead of buying balls your buying skills.

Instead of money, it's GOLD, and instead of rackets your buying runes or equipment you need.
You're right, you can't just BE succesfull at PvP, you have to practice. However, you analogy is incorrect.

Quote:
Skills in the game are NOT equivalent to SKILLS in real life. Stop trying to make them the same. Skills in the game, meaning spells and attacks, are EQUIPMENT.
You said it yourself, there is not equivalent to skills, and then you say skills = equipment.

Quote:
It's really as simple as that. If you don't like it, don't play it. Guild Wars isn't the only game, nor is playing it a requirement. I don't like Worlds of Warcraft, and I don't play it.
We do like it, we just don't like the bullshit you have to go through to get to the good part.

Quote:
See how easy that was?
Pretty damn hard seeing that you didn't read at least one previous post.

JoDiamonds

JoDiamonds

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

New England

03 Jul 2005 at 00:52 - 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
Regarding arredondo, dude, I'm sorry, but the UAS/UAR was a Beta-only feature. It was never going to be in the final game. It was never one of the fundamental design concepts of the game. I'm not about to pretend that I was sitting with ANet during development meetings and so forth, but it's plain to see what they were really going to do, and it's plain to see why we don't have the UAS/UAR feature: because Guild Wars is still an RPG at its core.

You're screaming bloody murder about how unlocking skills violates every principle of serious competition...but you're screaming bloody murder about something that is very clearly designed in a way as to adhere to the principles of an actual RPG, principles including character development, stat-building, skill/ability acquisition, etc.

I've been disregarding your main point (that unlocking defeats serious competition) because in the context of Guild Wars...that main point is irrelevant. It doesn't even have bearing here. You've been repeating this mantra of "unlocking is inappropriate for competitive play," and in any other game genre, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But not in this genre.
A few things:

You make a lot of reasonable points here. But a lot of what you say boils down to, "There is a way that it has been done before (in RPGs). You are wrong to want to change that."

True innovation always involves going against the idea of doing something in a certain way just because it's always been done that way. Guild Wars clearly comes closest to being truly competitive, in the realm of Massive Online RPGs.

It's clearly true to me, and many others, that there is no venue for serious competition in Guild Wars. I'm soliciting ideas for ways that fair, serious competition could be added to Guild Wars. The key is to find a method which isn't "Unlock Everything!". I think it's clear that ArenaNet isn't going to do that, and that seems fine.

If you have ideas, please, please, either PM me or add to this thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=27583

Siren

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

03 Jul 2005 at 01:32 - 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali Ma

Talk about messing with semantics to not have to admit you were in error, geez...

The grammar used in my sentence was lucid and unambiguous. I've never heard anyone around here who refered to skill and upgrades as being "locked" to mean anything other than "not unlocked."

Ok, whatever... you're right. You win. I don't know what I was thinking. How's that? Feel better now?
Who was concerned with winning? I was merely explaining why I read it the way I did, and my previous reply was not intended to cut you down or anything of the sort, so I don't understand why there's a twinge of offense or annoyance in your reply here.

And to be fair, "anyone around here" includes the entirety of this messageboard...and I think it's safe to say that some don't exactly demonstrate a clear grasp on the English language, heh. So I don't really think that nobody else mentioning other uses of particular words and phrases is entirely meaningful, if at all.

Again, not trying to be mean here, and I'm not trying to insult you. I'm just explaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeDiamonds
A few things:

You make a lot of reasonable points here. But a lot of what you say boils down to, "There is a way that it has been done before (in RPGs). You are wrong to want to change that."

True innovation always involves going against the idea of doing something in a certain way just because it's always been done that way. Guild Wars clearly comes closest to being truly competitive, in the realm of Massive Online RPGs.

It's clearly true to me, and many others, that there is no venue for serious competition in Guild Wars. I'm soliciting ideas for ways that fair, serious competition could be added to Guild Wars. The key is to find a method which isn't "Unlock Everything!". I think it's clear that ArenaNet isn't going to do that, and that seems fine.

If you have ideas, please, please, either PM me or add to this thread:
Thing is, Jo, I'm very pleased with the steps ANet has taken lately. They've been exceptional in their customer service. They've been attentive to the fanbase's needs and wants, and I think most here (apart from a very minor few) would agree that if more companies had ANet's approach, the industry would be better off.

And it's because of that I get so annoyed with people who constantly whine about every little thing that bugs them. ANet is almost bending over backwards to placate the complaints and criticisms, to make GW truly enjoyable for all...and that isn't even good enough.

I wholeheartedly agree that Guild Wars is one game that gives most of the industry a major kick in the teeth, and I cannot praise ANet enough for that. I agree that gaming evolves over time, and new concepts and ideas are pushed forward, but for the purposes of this discussion, I think a major question is just outright being ignored by some very vocal people:

Where do we draw the line between what a game is designed to do versus what a few people want?

And really, that's been what I've been trying to get across all along. I don't want a UAS/UAR feature as much as you don't. It has implications that would be potentially game-breaking, especially considering the mesh between PvE and PvP ANet is trying to achieve with GW.

The recent PvP unlock system is almost exactly what PvPers were asking for not even a month ago. Many PvPers were asking for an unlock system that didn't require them to slog through the PvE campaign multiple times. That's precisely what ANet delivered. They were asking for an unlock system that allowed them to PvP to unlock items. That's precisely what ANet delivered.

The only thing I could think of needing some revision is the faction point requirements. I certainly wouldn't argue that 3k faction points for one elite skill is fair, because it isn't. But overall? It's a solid system, just like the game itself. All that it needs is tweaking and streamlining, just like the game itself.

White Hair

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

03 Jul 2005 at 02:16 - 161
PvP people need to get their head out of their asses and stop complaining. You can get a character from lvl 1 to lvl 20 and cap all the elites over the friggin weekend.