The Update: Why We See More Complaints Than Praise

We've long ago identified that. There's no question about what the system does, nor is there any question of how it slaps the face of competitive gaming of any tyoe for those that want to play a purely skillful vs. game with no gear favortisim to the top hoop jumpers who put in 100+ extra hours than you. 100+ hours developing your personal abilities, techniques and strategy is a good thing; 100+ hours pleasing the "man" so he can toss you a couple of elites you need to compete equally is NOT good.

The point of the discussion here is that the more they force competition into grinding endurance exercises (as it pertains to access to gear), the worse off PvP becomes as a serious competitive activity. You can not have it both ways. There is no perfect middle that you seem to insist is there. The reason why NO serious competitive activity or sport does this nonsense is because it is the antithesis of pure skillful play. THAT is what competition is about.

If you can't see the difference between skill as it relates to two opposing sides going toe-to-toe with no influence from the system and the drudgery of pleasing that system so they can toss you the gear you need, I can't help you at all.

However, you tried to define GW PvP at the start of this section. You point out that the escape clause for the way this is set up is due to the catch-all "it's an RPG" comment. First and foremost, they have ALWAYS emphasized that the focus of this game is competiton. I refer you to Arena.net's own Game Synopsis page:

WHY are we playing hundreds of hours of goofy PvE mechanics of unlocking just to play with pure skill?!

- If you want RPG as the focus, it has it's game flow... exploration, steady progression towards a goal, unlocking, and tangible rewards at the END. That is PvE.

- If you want COMPETITION as the focus, it has IT'S game flow.... setting up with appropriate gear at the START, review and fine tuning of strategy, on field execution of tactics and abilities, with the goal of out playing your opponents. That is PvP.

This problem exists in GW PvP because what PvE offers at the end of a goal is available in all competitive contests at the very start. You seem to feel there is a comfortable melding of the two vastly different play mechanics. But when you take the mechanics of one and squeeze it into the other, it will always be an uncomfortable fit. Sure, you can attempt it, but it diminishes the playability and quality of the side being forced to submit to the style of the other.

What have we been seeing in these drastic update changes in recent weeks? It is Arena.net's slow recognition and attempt to fix a BROXEN SYSTEM. Not broke as in unplayable, but broke as in frustrating their otherwise excited players who wish to play the style they wish to play. If it's so perfect of a system, how come the rush to overhaul it every week?

Lastly, you answer a question of mine please. I say it is a square peg in a round hole everytime they force PvE mechanics (i.e. slow unlocking) into PvP. I loved PvE for what it was, but I can't stand how it infects the fun and freedom a lot of us want for PvP. My question to you is, how would you feel if it were reversed? What if the game emphasized shoehorning the PvP game into the pure enjoyment of PvE?

Examples... What if we did have a purely skill based PvP system as we are asking for. Full UAS/UAR from the second you install (like EVERY other game, sport, competitive contest, etc.). We can have all our fun and concentrate on strategy and tactics for hours on end.

But some people want to play PvE. Well to leave Pre-Ascalon, you have to win 100 Arena matches. Ready to go to the next town? Win another 50 arena matches please. Do you have to unlock skills along the way? Of course not, we're forcing competitive play mechanics on you whether you like it or not. ALL skills are unlocked from the start except elites... you have to hold Hall of Heroes for 10 straight games to get an elite.

You will be FORCED to slowly for through PvE under the uncomfortable fit of a competitive play mechanic system. People who love PvE fuss at us complainers because they can play their game the way it is meant to be played. It IS called a COMPETITIVE online RPG, right? Then why can PvE people play with NO PvP influence on their side, but pure PvP players have to jump therough hundreds of hours of friggin' PvE style hoops just to start with the right gear?!

I call bullshit. I have found that it takes roughly 50-60 hours to complete a character. (unlocking all skills) But you are more than free to create a log of your own efforts to prove me wrong.

Here's an idea.

Quit talking about PvE and PvP like they're supposed to be seperate.

The two are supposed to be intertwined.

And they are.

The devs want people to enjoy their game, not half of their game, they want them to enjoy all of it. Most of us like both PvE and PvP, most of us like the new system, and it keeps it fair for the majority of the community. Those who enjoy PvP, and PvE.

If you want PvP to be seperate (it never will be), this isn't your game.

Hi. I'm a noob.

I've got some Simple, Common Sense-based Questions:

If they give the "PvPers" the ability to get all their armors and skills instantly without having to earn them or work for them(as seems to be what the PvPers want if I am reading all of this correctly)......can I get my armor and such that way as well, being a "normal" player? Why should I have to work for my levels, and armor, and weapons, and spells if they don't have to?

why should a PvPer get everything so much easier than the rest of us? I paid my 50 bucks just like they did. What makes them so much more deserving?

It's always going to be a poor fit unless they make the right changes. Each play mechanic has its own game flow, each has its own purpose. In this game, PvE exists without any forced PvP play mechanics. Unfortunately, even with the continual changes to PvP it is still infected with too much PvE play mechanics. What if it were reversed?

It need not be this way at all.

For the record, PvE players have to go through one PvP battle before post-searing, it's mandatory.

And secondly, PvP players only have to go through PvE once right? Well when you get done with PvE...all that's left is PvP which is why most all PvE players turn to do some PvP as well in the end.

"Earning" stuff is a PvE play mechanic and does not belong in the PvP side. The point of competition is to equip with whatever is accessable to all, plan, execute, win... NOT unlocking games from PvE. Do you complain that PvE players don't have to show competitive skill if they choose to ignore PvP altogether? Should they be forced into 1,000 PvP matches over the course of their adventure?

Stop favoring one and make it balanced. Force PvE into hundreds of PvP hours to finish the game, or stop forcing PvP players to goof off with PvE play mechanics.

Choose one or the other... don't be a hypocrite. Oh, you like it as it is, favoring PvE mechanics. Good for you.

Do you read what you type?

PvP players have to go through PvE ONCE, for the soul purpose of finding the locations of the priests, you can do this in less than a day. Big friggin' deal. The rest is all PvP for you.

How many times do PvE players have to go through PvP? 1 time? 5 minutes, win or lose? Why is it wrong to complain about being forced to do one thing (PvP'ers who want no PvE), but the other side can comfortably play THEIR way (PvE can ignore all PvP)?

PvE once is 100 hours. PvP once is five minutes. Yeah, it's all intertwined all right.

You're forgetting an earlier comment of mine.

Most people enjoy BOTH PvP and PvE.

And do you think the PvE experience lasts forever? Hardly. It's repetitive after a while until the next chapter, so most PvE players go to do some PvP after they've completed PvE anyway.

My point?

Most people play PvE, and then also like to play some PvP.

And that's the way it was created to be, with the two sides intertwined and fun for the majority of the players.

And also.

You don't need NEAR 100 hours to get to the last priest.

I don't much care either way. I just don't see what makes you so special and deserving that you should have everything handed to you, while me, who is going to play the PVE game, and THEN PvP, has to work for it.

when you get your skills, and armor, and levels(oh, you already do), and spells handed to you for free instantly, and never have to work for it, I want mine given to me as well. It's only fair.

They get this stuff now anyway.

Welcome to the biggest debate on the forums. Problem is PvPers don't want to slave away for 600 hours to unlock all the skills and PvEers don't want to be at a disadvantage in PvP. However, its also important to realise that a high-end PvPer will have more stuff unlocked than everyone else, giving them an advantage anyway. UAX would only help this situation.

Why should a PvPer have to play 600 hours of PvE to enjoy the game. I payed 50 bucks just like they did. What makes them so much more deserving?

then I suppose the only feasible solution is to make everyone level 20, give them all their spells and skills, and the absolute highest level armor available from day 1.

everyone.

PVE Characters AND PVP characters.

I'm fine with that.

there's no way that one group of people should have to work for stuff while another group of people has everything handed to them for free. period.

I don't give a crap about "competitive play" or "pve play" or any of that.

bottom line, right now, both groups of people have to work for their stuff.

one group is complaining because they don't want to have to work for their stuff, and they want it given to them for free.

and that is wrong.

I enjoy both modes. It has no bearing on this conversation. If I want to play pure PvE for a week, its all good. If I want to play pure PvP for a day, I am forced into all kinds of PvE play mechanics. THIS is the splinter sticking in the paw. If it wasn't a problem, why does Arena.net address this very issue EVERY...SINGLE...UPDATE?

It's because the balance is way off. You can enjoy both modes, but let's enjoy them for what they each offer. If I want hunting, unlocking and all that stuff, I play PvE. If I want fierce competition with no influence from the system's PvE play mechanics influencing the outcome, I should get that in PvP.

You continue to ignore the obvious... why not impose the same standard on pure PvE enjoyment? How about being forced into hundreds of hours of PvP play mechanics (competitive victories to progress) before you finished the PvE adventure?

A PvPer doesn't have to play near 600 hours of PvE, what the hell are you talking about? The only reason PvE is now necessary is to find the priests in the towns. Other than that, you don't need to do anything else, no quests to unlock your skills, no grinding for runes, just finding the priests, you can do it in a day.

And to the...

"
Problem is PvPers don't want to slave away for 600 hours to unlock all the skills and PvEers don't want to be at a disadvantage in PvP."

The problem is the last part.

They aren't "PvEers" if they ALSO play PvP. Which is exactly my point! PvE and PvP are SUPPOSED to both be played, those who play PvE and PvP are the ones who this system was made for, and that's how it's going to be.

It is my belief that the dev's won't ever implement a UAX for the PvP players simply because they don't want people to only play half their game, they want people to play all of their game, that's how it was made.

I don't see how that makes your point.

we already have to grind and work for what we want. this "solution" of yours won't change anything. we'll still have to work for it.

you want your stuff handed to you. I don't see how forcing us to PvP, is going to validate you having everything handed to you.

Your unlocking scenario ignores the obvious... PvP is STILL infected with PvE play mechanics (adventure to all areas to find priests, unlock items with faction, etc.). PvE players don't have to do ANY PvP play mechanics but once (competitively win hundreds of matches to progress).

You may like it, but at least acknowledge it for what it is. "Earning" objects is a PvE play mechanic. Winning victories against human competition is a PvP play mechanic. PvP is forced into hours and hours of PvE... PvE can gnore all PvP except once if they wish. How can you even try and call that fair?

I'm all in favor of that, actually... It's rather more like what I expected the game to be when ArenaNet first described it: a series of actual Guild Wars.

—Siran Dunmorgan

The "work" in any competitive contest EXCEPT GW PvP is to out play and out think your opponent, period.

- You don't have to "earn" a good tennis racket from the Tennis Association by winning 1,000 matches just to compete on the same level as your opponent.

- You don't have to "earn" your bishops from the Chess Association by winning a 1,000 matches just to compete on the same level as your opponent.

Competition is not about "earning" your equipment needed from the "league" just to compete against those they have what you don't. Everyone has access to what is allowed without doing some hoop jumping for the league first. Only in Guild Wars PvP is this serious problem in place. Before you respond to this, read the earlier pages on this very point because I'm not commenting on it again.

Fair enough. At least then it'd be evenly screwed up on both sides.

For the love of God...can we PLEASE stop talking as if the "sides" are uneven?!

What sides?! It's GuildWars, PvP and PvE affect one another.

There are hardly ANY PURE PvP players out there.

And I know 2, that's right 2 people who only like PvE.

Most everyone who continues to play this game likes BOTH of them, they like GUILD WARS. They don't like half of it, they like the game.

If you're asking the devs to "pick sides", well that's, and I'll say it, just plain idiotic.

They won't do that, they're not building "PvP" for the PvP players, and they're not building "PvE" for the PvE players, they're building the game for those that like to play it. Plain and simple.

Honestly, how many games do you go around complaining about HALF of it?! You either like the GAME or you don't. It's not "well I like this half" or "well I don't like that half", it's either the right game for you or it isn't.

So long as you keep talking about PvP and PvE like they're two different sides not meant to both be played, then you're talking without reason or purpose, because that won't lead anywhere.

I think the biggest issue is that a lot of people seem to want this game to play like a random Multiplayer FPS, where you just pick your name and weapon loadout and go.

but it doesn't play that way, because it has RPG elements in it. and the the fact that this is not a typical Multiplayer Shooter just doesn't register with some folks.

and every other Online Adventure Game/RPG.

you don't have to speak on it again, fine with me. You want the game to be a multiplayer shooter, and it isn't.

You can't pretend a problem exists because it does. If not then there wouldn't be these drastic updates all the time to patch it up. Your two "pure" PvE friends... guess what? The choice is theirs! They DON'T have to endure any PvP. And, for those of us who loved PvE but finished it, what insane reason could there be to force us to continue to endure those play mechanics when we are focused on PvP?

Think of it this way, It is not about one or the other. I can enjoy both equally. But when I am in PvE mode, there is NO interference from PvP play mechanics. When I am in PvP mode, I am constantly harassed by PvE play mechanics.

Not just shooters. Every single competitive activity known to mankind. It ISN'T labeled RPG. It is labeled COMPETITIVE online RPG. The RPG part is fine... they can ignore PvP. The first word, COMPETITVE, is what gets update every week because it is NOT fine. Unlike all other competitive activities, we are forced into PvE play mechanics just to access gear from the beginning.

Except for the fact that some of the greatest rewards in PvE are the underworld and fissure, and you have to have the favor of the god's to have access to those.

So you either have to depend on PvP players to go win it, or you have to do it yourself.

Sure you can "ignore" the fissure and the UW, but you'll be missing out on some of the greatest parts of PvE, thus forcing you to be concerned with PvP whether you like it or not.

And you know, just the same you can ignore PvE as a whole, you'll just have to stick with what you have otherwise.

If you've ever not had favor and wanted into those two places at the temple of ages, you'd see just how much PvE players depend on PvP players.

The two are one, they're intertwined, they're Guild Wars. PvE players depend on PvP for the only high-end PvE they have available to them, and PvP players depend on a day of PvE to get their skills, plain and simple.

spoken like a FPS veteran.

far-reaching examples to prove your point, but have no bearing on this game, or any other online RPG.

simple solution.

remove loot. one set of armor, one weapon for each primary profession.

remove most skills except for a handful of the most useful skills/spells per Profession.. then you don't have to "earn" them, or "work" for them.

remove attribute points and "builds" from the PvP portion of the game.

and do not allow PvE characters to enter any PvP. period. if you want to PvP, you make one of these "even-level" PvP-only characters.

You want everyone to start out at the same level in PvP, and not have to earn anything? that's how you do it.

you shouldn't have free access to anything that we have to work to earn. PERIOD. if you get them for free, then why should I work for them? you still have not and will not answer that question. you keep ducking behind the word "Competitive" instead of giving a straight answer to that question.

that means extra armors, extra weapons, extra skills, should all be off-limits to PvPers.

now you don't have to earn anything, you have your useful skills handed to you, and everyone uses the same skills, spells, and equipment. everyone is even, and you can now outwit and outthink your opponents, knowing that everything is perfectly fair and even. and you didn't have to do any PVE work to get there.

The desire of putting in hundreds of hours into a PvP expeirence free from PvE mechanics is being compared to waiting for favor.

Lol, if you are going to hold up ToA adventures as the proof the two are equally intertwined, then the argument for status quo is weaker than I thought. Too funny to even comment on.

Well, it's obvious you've never gone through PvE.

Maybe if you spent as much time in game as you did in this thread you'd have all the priest positions open to you by now, and this wouldn't be a problem.

Me?

Already done it.

And why won't you comment on it? Because it's too funny?

Sorry buddy, you'll need to do better than that if you want anyone to look at you seriously.

OK, proof positive you have no idea what we are talking about. Good luck to you in the future my friend. I wish you well.

PvE players can go through the game and ignore PvP play mechanics. It should be the other way as well. And I have completed PvE, loved every minute of it. I didn't even begin playing my 4th PvP match until I completed all the missions, quests, bonuses got all my skills AND elites. This is bigger than just wanting something for myself.

Can I go into pure PvP without PvE play mechanics now that I put my 150 hours of pure PvE in? Lol, that's what this is allll about.

You seem to be running short on backup for your argument Arredondo, anyone can click the quote button and not comment.

You know I'm going to be honest with you, you haven't held a single point through this entire thread for more than a page. First you wanted smaller faction points, than you wanted a UAX button for all PvP players because it would make it more about "skill", of course when you realized people played boht that kinda throws that idea out into the dumpster 'eh? And now we've got the idea that PvP people don't need any of that, PvE players just have to play more PvP, right?

Make up your mind. It doesn't sound to me like you like very much at all about the game. Maybe fine another?

*edit for his second response*

So it's about fairness now...is it? It's not fair that PvE players can't unlock the fissure armor unless PvP players pull through? It's not fair that they can't get enough skill points to unlock all of their skills in days unless they go through the UW/Fissure quests?

Now that I know that you've played through PvE...I'm wondering one thing.

Why are you complaining? You're saying that PvE players should go through hundreds of hours of PvP, when PvP players don't have to go through that much of PvE? And...why does it even matter?

You see, a roleplaying character has access to both PvE and PvP. I personally would have to say that a "PvP" character, which only has access to half the game, should only get half the benefit from it.

Then again I'm odd that way.

I've explained his non-point a dozen times in this thread from others who tried it and failed. I won't do it again... I'll refer him to page one and he can learn from that point if he reads forward. When he knows what's been said, he can come back with a new angle and we'll talk.

EDIT... what I want is UAX for PvP. What I'll settle for is faction costs 1/10th of what they are now. I asked about putting PvP mechanics in PvE to show you how ridiculous it is to shoehorn the methods of one into the other (when one person wanted that, I even said BOTH sides would be equally screwed up).

Your point was made, but it fails. The theme of this thread is consistent and sound.

Sure, take away the PvP connection to Underworld/FoW... now what?

Why does it matter? Because playing PvE hor over a hundred hours I had zero complaints as it was all brought together really well. Now that I'm trying to play PvP for a hundred hours, I am forced into PvE play mechanics that don't exist in any other purely skillful competive activity. Some don't mind it, but few of them take competition as seriously as some of us.

I've played in many sports, hobby games, video games, etc. competitively. I've been in all kinds of tournies (local, regional, national even) and understand competition. This system of forcing 'unlocking' features to get the gear you need goes against the grain of skillful play, and it is slowing down the improvement progress (whether slightly or greatly) of many people who want to play PvP seriously. You asked, there it is.

I don't quite think I NEED a new angle, that's the problem. You need a better answer to my "angle."

You "referred me to page one", I read. and from what I see, a lot of folks in the thread simply disagree with you. even PvPers in some cases. and many take the same simplistic position that I do. It's not really complicated.

and you still haven't answered my question sufficiently. I've seen the whole "Competition" schtick several times in this thread, and it doesn't answer the question, no matter how many times you put it out there.

Why should you be given FREE or EASY access to things that I have to work and grind to earn? or, alternately stated, if you DO get Free OR Easy Access to Skills that I have to work and grind for, then what purpose is there for me to work and grind? Is it suitable for me to get free Faction points and PvP Rewards without engaging in PvP and earning them?

When you give a feasible answer for those questions, I'll shut up.

but for now, I'm going to..you know...play Guild Wars.

later.

Haha, this is about fun for me now than any point, to be honest with you. I know I won't be here to see a UAX button, so I'm not concerned about that ever happening. That would seperate PvP and PvE and the devs won't do that. So I don't really see where I'm at fault here.

Anyways...

Lets analyze this, for your sake.

PvP ONLY players, have to...

Go through PvE once, they can do this in less than a day. The rest is pure PvP for them, with ONE PvP character, they can unlock all the skills/weapon upgrades/runes in the entire game, all with one PvP character, and a one-time run through PvE.

PvE only characters have to...


PvE once to get all the skills for their two professions, if they don't have enough skill points they have to gain each skill point by experience, again, and again, and again, and again, doing the same thing over and over again. The easiest way to do this is through the quests in the UW/Fissure. Which depends on PvP. Once they manage to do that with one character, they then have to either switch secondary professions, and get...about...20-30 more skill points, on that one character. You know, the one where they can't get any XP other than fighting monsters that takes longer than getting faction in PvP, and if they want to do it fast on that same character they have to go to the fissure/UW, which still...depends on PvP. All just to unlock some skills through PvE only.

If a PvE character doesn't want to have to go through that trouble of changing a secondary profession, they'd then have to create a new character, go through the exact same missions, go to the exact same skill trainers in the cities, kill the exact same monsters with the same skills that they've always had, just to unlock all the skills on another character.

Then they have to create another character to do it again.

And another.

And what? There aren't enough character slots to get all the skills for the professions JUST by doing PvE unless you A: Change your secondary and become dependant on the Fissure/UW for skill point XP, or B: Delete on of your valued characters?

And what else?

What?! You say we have to get LUCKY to find our weapon upgrades?

And the few upgrades that we find aren't even as good as the minimum weapon upgrades for PvP characters?!

And what?! We need MONEY to buy it from people? And we have to sell things or farm mobs all day just to get enough money to MAYBE buy one?! And the rune trader only gives us 31g for a superior death magic?!

And what's that? You mean there is an easier way for a pure PvE character to make money? What's that?

The UW/Fissure? Of course!

Wait...

That's dependant on PvP...

I guess it's back to the farming jade scarabs outside amnoon all day, just so I can maybe have enough money to maybe buy a weapon that's half as good as what you can unlock with faction points through PvP.

"Boy, I sure wish we could unlock all that stuff in PvE with one character, like a PvP character can!" -Innocent PvE only child

*sigh* I know what you mean innocent PvE only child, it really is a shame that PvE characters have to spend multiple character slots, go through the same missions over and over again, and be dependant on UW/Fissure just to do this at a decent rate when we've beaten the game...wait, that's dependant on PvP...nvm...

"Also, I really wish each one of our battles was different and exciting like every battle in PvP!" -Innocent PvE only child

*sigh* I know what you mean innocent PvE only chlid.

"So what are we going to do?"

I know!

"What is it PieXags?!"

We'll play both! And play the game the way it was meant to be played! It's obvious now just how much CRAP PvE characters have to go through, with multiple characters, dependance on PvP, and repetitive missions/mobs, just to unlock what a PvP only character can with one character, in different fights and everything!

We'll play both! Oh my lord that's a brilliant idea.

We'll play both, we'll play Guild Wars.

===========================

I hope that explains to you that PvE characters don't need to get "screwed" anymore when it comes to unlocking, both sides have it rough. I'd say PvE has it worse when it comes to unlocking though.

Cheers.

*Edit*

I forgot to add that well, to put it simply. PvP players want to unlock everything, all the skills, all the gear, all the runes, everything. They can do all of this with one PvP character doing competitive and fun battles in PvP, each one a little different and each one a test of your skill. They have to go through PvE once, and with that one PvP character and that one PvP character they can unlock every single item in the game. Also PvP characters have the luxury of being able to fiddle around with builds, they get to switch their attributes whenever they want, and if they want a new class combination, all they have to do is delete that character or start another one, deleting it doesn't matter to a pure PvP character because they can make it again in less than 2 minutes.

For a PvE character to unlock all the skills, the best runes, get the best upgrades for weapons, etc. They have to spend just as much time if not more, they CAN'T switch around attributes and try different builds near as easily because you have attribute refund points that require you to go get XP if you want them back, you have to unlock the 30 extra attributes at the end via quests, for each character you have, you have to get money in order to buy anything decent. And money is much harder to come by than faction. To get things in PvE people can overcharge like HELL. Everything you get for a PvP character has a set limit on it, you don't have to worry about inflation with a PvP character. To get decent money/XP you have to depend on the UW/Fissure, which is...dependant on PvP. And also, lets not forget. Doing all this in PvE is all the same, all the time. No competition, it's easy as hell in every area but the fissure/UW, which is dependant on PvP. It requires little or no skill to get through most missions/quests. The monsters you fight are stupid, always the same, they all have the same skills, and once you beat it, there are no surprises. It's the same, every time, over and over again. All this just to get what a PvP character can get with one character, without having to worry about inflation of prices or money, they don't have to worry about faction either because it's GUARANTEED that they'll get some faction for fighting no matter what, and that faction adds up quick, win or lose. With PvE characters, it's nowhere near as easy to get money.

And with that, I'd just like to say that...

The reason PvE characters don't have to do a little more PvP is because, well, in order to do what a PvP character can, they wouldn't have time to do it anyways. Because they're too busy depending on PvP for the UW/Fissure and dealing with the same missions and mobs over and over again just to get what they MIGHT be able to get.

And...with that I go get some food.

And you're wondering why we're not taking you seriously? You're talking about PvP being "infected" with too much PvE play mechanics. After you say something like that, I personally find it incredibly hard to believe you actually and honestly value anything in PvE, especially if that's how you're talking about PvE elements.

And those "PvE play mechanics" are...? Are you being "forced" to slog through PvE campaign mode, or are you participating in the PvP arenas, in order to unlock items for PvP?

No offense, but this portion of your replies reminds me of children on the playground sticking their fingers in their ears and going "lalalalalalalalala."

Using your personal life as if it's some type of bartering currency will not help you prove your point.

Let's flip this around, since the point is going right over your head, it seems.

Let's say you win in a PvP match. How can you be so sure that you won because of what items you had, what items the other team didn't have, etc? How do you know what the other team had, apart from just seeing what kind of armor and weapons they were using? Keep in mind that you cannot accurately assess item stats based on appearance.

So how do you know what's really going on in the match? How do you know what really went on in the match? Unless you took a survey of each team's equipment, logged what weapons, what mods, what upgrades, what runes, what types of armor, what types of protection, etc., before the match, then had a multi-hour discussion session with the other team afterwards to talk about what each of you did, how you did it, when you switched items, etc...you have no way of knowing at all whether items had anything to do with it.

So for all you know, you just sucked in that match and your armor and l337 weapons and runes saved your ass and the opposing team's items and equipment weren't l337 enough to stand up against your onslaught.

But on the other hand, maybe it wasn't armor, the weapons, the runes, etc., and maybe your win was actually based on how well you strategized and organized your strikes.

And if you lost the match, do you blame the loss on items, or skill? Keep in mind that you have no way of knowing just what the other team was using, apart from the spell monitors. Seems to me that if you really can't know for sure that it was in fact items that decided the match and not actual player skill...you really shouldn't be making blanket statements like "PvP sucks unless everyone is given everything!"

Without knowing for sure, you're just conjecturing and wasting our time...you're just dealing in "What ifs" instead of "What is."

*sigh*

Good stuff.

And this is where I draw the line for me in this thread, after that post of mine and seeing Siren here I'm sure I'm not necessary in this "argument" anymore.

Reading over my post, I don't really see how you can come up with any counter-points, fact of it is, for a PvE character to unlock all the skills, runes, weapon upgrades, and what not. It's actually more difficult to do in just in PvE than in PvP.

So to say that it favors PvE is just a lie. Plain and simple. Care to argue any of the things I said in my post? You've played through PvE arredondo, you know what I'm talking about up there. Ask any PvE player how difficult it is to try and find that perfect weapon, just try and unlock all the skills never entering a PvP arena. It's a lot more difficult purely doing PvE, and...a lot more repetitive, less skill-based, and that just plain blows. PvE is fun, but the best way to play is to play it all. Plain and simple.

PvE people don't have near the luxuries PvP only characters do when it comes to attribute switching, build testing, and general competition in the game. So if you want to talk about how PvE characters have it so easy, go unlock everything you can with one character using faction just by doing PvE.

Then come back and complain.

This is a personal belief based on how the game plays. Perhaps this is a valid and an interesting idea to analyze to a point. However GW has always been this way and is currently this way. For a short time during BETA testing UAS was allowed for testing purposes.

Some gamers came to think this was the way it was going to be in game once retail. But it is not the way the guys developed the game or intended it to be played. Its not the game ANET wants to create.

ANET is in many people’s minding actually very successfully doing this. Its obvious to me the faction thing was well thought out and implemented and probably was in the design process many months back. I too thought it was impossible to combine the two.

I was just thinking of the simplicity or actually the difficulty required in trying to combine the two. I am completely surprised they have come as close as they have and continue to work toward. Its as others have pointed out actually not quite new but a new interpretation and implementation of older ideas. It really is quite aggressive and future thinking. They have actually almost reinvented the wheel not by changing the shape but by inventing rubber. Who needs rubber when you got wood, well that’s the idea but give it a chance and you will see the fan base wheel come to grasp it.

What was once frustrating is now becoming exceedingly easy to most especially as they learn more and more game mechanics. The mass of the fan base is moving forward and adapting. Time has passed.

As I said in another post:

With more and more of the casual players learning the intricacies of changing professions and capturing elites in PvE and the faction bonus of PvP the developers have created a level of satisfication for the majority of their players.

The expansions will introduce new skills, and items you will need them for PvP and again you will have choice of PvPing for it or PvEing. Nothing will be free. LOL what can you say. Nothing. Either you have been playing the game and understand it or have not but are thinking of clever ways of tearing it down.

Go to Draknors Forge, anywhere high level and ascended characters are and for every one character understand in a week they could each have 2-3 PvP only characters with 1 elite/based builds with all the necessary support skills. Its not as bad as some people try to make it out. UAS is dead.

Interesting hypothetical we have here. But the thing is the fan base is surprisingly very adaptive and both PvP and PvE and they would adapt either way if its fun. Hypothetical questions are tricky at best. If suddenly ANET were to require PvP victories for elites what would happen? Well PvEers might complain a bit, but probably would start Guilding more and soon it would be a moot problem. Either you play the game because you like it or don’t. Game’s and companies tend to shy away from radical shifts, mostly giving and not taking away when possible. They also tend to try to stay close to their main idea or focus regardless of shifting opinion however sharp or loud. It obvious ANET wants PvE to some extent to be the jumping off point or introduction to PvP, period. They are not going to give 100% everything to PvP because they simply want people to play both even though you really dont have too. Its their game and they never said PvP was going to be unlock all.

They only said it was skill based and that they were going to try to limit the time necessary to be competitive. Try is the key word. Skill based means many things, skill in knowing the game, skill in able to be a contributing member to a guild, skill in knowing how to do the quests, skill in learning and knowing the skills and skill learned in how to be a member of a successful team.

Anyone can be very competitive very quickly you dont need all elites for your primary profession and you dont need all superior runes its rubbish.

Skill takes time. It’s a game, ANETS game and its called Guild Wars and it has PvE and PvP. You only want to PvP now with all the skills, everything unlocked but ANET didn’t design that game for you. Anyone complaining is complaining about the way the game was designed and was meant to be played by ANET. That is ok to a certain extent but at a certain point it’s a waste of time. Yes it kind of fun to play hypothetical but there is this game called GW and its pretty good how about playing that one or not?

I personally think the Mods should start taking a aggressive stance and moving all posts about game design issues to Sardelac Sanitarium. Let people rant in there all they want.

Yes everyone should be allowed to think of new games and new ideas. But tearing down a game because it does not play the way you want or give you what you want fast enough is a waste of everyone’s time in general.

Heck I have a thousand ideas about Guild Wars. I also have my personal idea of the best game. But I am going to play GW and not compare it to that game. If I have suggestions about improving GW they go in Sardelac Sanitarium.

These posts by people about UAS never had any merit. Never did they and they were for the most part a complete waste of good forum space for WEEKS.

Of course by posting in this thread I bump it for which I should be shot but I am tired as many of these long and numerious complaints about GW and PvP.