The Update: Why We See More Complaints Than Praise

This is the entire point, for me. You've made it perfectly.

I can't know why I won or lost. That in of itself is a reason to provide a level playing field.

I'm sure most people don't care. But I want to know that I lost because I was outplayed, or won because I have skills (and proud of it, when that's the case!).

I can't know that now. Maybe I won because I'm good. Or maybe the other guys just haven't played two hundred hours of PvE like I have.

All of these things like Guild Ladder and Tomb of Primeval Kings: Right now, they measure a whole bunch of things in relation to each other. These things include:

• Playing Skill
  
• Playing Time (grinding)
  
• Luck
  

And a bunch of other stuff. Boy, I'd like to be able to look at the Guild Ladder and know that the higher ranked guilds are generally more skilled, not just guilds that have played more. But right now, [i]I just can't know that[i].

So you make a great point. This is a reason to create level playing fields, not a reason to keep them away.

Now, I'll say that I'm not actually asking for any kind of full unlock. But a level playing field would be nice. See also: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=27583

Arredondo, if you are so sure about what you're saying, then why not start your own gaming software company and show us how it should be done. If you are so sure about your logic, then why fight it here? If you can make a better product, then make it yourself? Make your own game and sell it!

Anything stating "the best way to play" is obviously purely opinion. You emphasize it like a fact.

You even use "Plain and simple" twice to emphasize things that are clearly opinions. Saying something "favors PvE" is an opinion. It's too grossly vague and broad to be anything else.

I'm all for people voicing their opinions, but opinions are never "plain and simple". Leave out the rhetoric next time and just say what you like. Please.

People have brought these points up a number of times. Here's what I don't understand: All players have access to all of these things. Why do so many players seem to take an "us vs. them" stance?

If PvP is made better, it's made better for all players. Anyone who is strictly playing PvE shouldn't care at all about what happens in PvP. And everyone else can just go ahead and make a PvP character. There's nothing that another player can do, in general, that you can't, whoever you are. Whether you call yourself PvP, PvE, or both, you have the same options.

All the "luxuries" belong to all players of Guild Wars, whether they are PvE luxuries or PvP luxuries. Can't we all just agree to be greedy and demand Arena Net give us all the luxuries in the world like normal forum members?

You see that's exactly my point!

"Why do so many players seem to take an "us vs. them" stance?"

Exactly, exactly! You SHOULDN'T take that stance on it at all, not by any means.

Then why, you ask, did I go and post such a huge post stating views for the extremists?

Arredondo didn't seem to understand anything else, so I figured I'd show him how you could look at it using his logic.

If you'll look back at my other posts you'll see what I mean, and why I had to do it.

"For the love of God...can we PLEASE stop talking as if the "sides" are uneven?!

What sides?! It's GuildWars, PvP and PvE affect one another.

There are hardly ANY PURE PvP players out there.

And I know 2, that's right 2 people who only like PvE.

Most everyone who continues to play this game likes BOTH of them, they like GUILD WARS. They don't like half of it, they like the game.

If you're asking the devs to "pick sides", well that's, and I'll say it, just plain idiotic.

They won't do that, they're not building "PvP" for the PvP players, and they're not building "PvE" for the PvE players, they're building the game for those that like to play it. Plain and simple.

Honestly, how many games do you go around complaining about HALF of it?! You either like the GAME or you don't. It's not "well I like this half" or "well I don't like that half", it's either the right game for you or it isn't.

So long as you keep talking about PvP and PvE like they're two different sides not meant to both be played, then you're talking without reason or purpose, because that won't lead anywhere."

That's a post of mine previously, obviously I don't think you should view the two as two halves, I just needed to show him a few different sides of the argument.

And in regards to my opinions, in the post of mine above this one I explained just how flawed it is to say that the game is in favor of PvE players, I noticed that nobody's taken the time to respond to that post so I'm assuming what I said was in fact, correct.

=======================

And in response to the second half of your post, I'm going to assume you said some of that just for laughs. Especially the last part.

"There's nothing that another player can do, in general, that you can't, whoever you are. Whether you call yourself PvP, PvE, or both, you have the same options."

---You're absolutely right, and I think you'll gather from all of my posts, that I have absolutely no problem with how the options are currently set, because in my opinion that's how they're best. And until I see valid explainations as to why "PvE" players are favored more, I'm going to stick to it.

The current system favors one group of people---those who play the entire game. It allows for balance, proper usage of skill in PvP, and a fair fight when people bring their PvE characters into PvP for a good time, and that's exactly the right way to pull it off, IMO.

Unless there's ever a good reason to unbalance the game, UAX won't be implemented.

The Problem is while Guild wars is all one game PvP and PvE Play alot Different than eachother. There is bound to be alot of people who like one more than the other, Some who just hate the other.

When you have a game like this its best if one does not have to step in the way of Progress of another, Currently the PvE System steps all over the PvP, Its the limiting factor of what you can Accomplish on the other side of the coin.

Like it or not, PvP vs PvE is a big Issue because they designed the issue.

If you like PvE mechanics (exploring, unlocking, etc.) and hate PvP (competition), you have 100+ hours of uninterrupted enjoyment. The opposite is NOT true for those who like PvP and don't care for PvE. Stop pretending that this isn't true. You may prefer it that way, but the people who don't aren't wrong in their feelings either.

Anyone who says we need to earn skills and everything else, or that we want it on a silver platter, is quite clueless of what we actually want. The people that are pissed off right now - the PvP community that stuck around after release, or just don't like grind - are angry because they don't want to sit around and play through 500 matches to unlock half a build so they can play through 500 more so they can play through 1000 more with a failed build attempt. Not everything that looks good on paper actually works, and we lack the freedom for not only build experimentation, but also for just fun. "Wee! We won with that same damn spike damage build again!" ... sounds like fun.... 50,000 times... PvP, for anybody but a diehard MMO grind monkey, is not about the advantage you have due to your hours spent, or how well you use your crappy limited skill library. It's about how well you did versus the other guy. For it to truly be player vs player, and not player + stuff vs player, then you have to remove the imbalance. The imbalance being "stuff". That is to say, either give it to both sides, or remove it entirely. As removing Skills and Runes isn't an obvious option, the better solution is to give both players access to everything. (this is where you should start bitching at me like you usually do_). In other words, UAS and UAR are, and still remain, the only way to achieve a balanced playing field, and for any PvPer except for those accustomed to the grindish style PvP of every other RPG ever made, fun. This game is a mixing of genres, or so we thought when we bought it. We though "awesome! it's like an RTS + an RPG + an FPS + ect." But when it released it was like "look.... another MMORPG.... yawn..."

if i am worng on this correct me

i think that the official beta testers had/have still a direct line to input bugs ideas for improvement and complaints.

it is certain that the must level dingaholics put up a screaming fight but we still have the level cap

i am just as certain the rabid so called level playing field UALL had their voices heard as well and we do not have the unlock

both extreams are leaving or have left leaving the people who are having enough fun playing the game that Anet made rather than trying to force Anets game into the mold that fits a very small fravtion of the game world player base

nope, but at the same time do they really need to post the same old threads over and over again each day? I'm pretty sure anet knows that some people would like Unlock Everything (since that is the crux of what the 'omg i only want to PvP' PvP'ers want), why not wait and see how they respond rather than criticising everything they do? All the moaning at the moment is not in any way constructive and i doubt flame-fest posts are the ones anet look forward to reading.

True, the new system helps a lot with runes and weapon upgrades. It does not however, do much for skills as I would wager that it is quicker to unlock them through PvE, which will take you roughly 600 hours. If you're not doing GvG to get your faction it will take a similar number to unlock runes/weapons.

No, the problem is both parts.

I don't think you realize that I am agrueing to help these exact people. I have most of the junk in this game unlocked and will have everything within a month. UAX will do absolutely nothing for me other than give a much more dynamic PvP scene.

They do only want you to play half their game; the PvE half. If it were otherwise there wouldn't be a 600 hour prerequisite to PvP.

Where did you guys concoct this "600 hour" number from anyway? I can ascend a character through normal play in only a couple of days, and finsih the game through casual play in a week. There are players that are rushed to Droknar's Forge within a couple of hours of play, simply to unlock the elites, and to get the uber armor.

The rest of the time is though farming, doing quests for skills/skill points, or simply getting all of the map open. None of which are a requirement to play PVP. Do players do some of it for PVP? Sure, but they don't have to.

While I do play PVP with my guild, I don't spend a lot of time doing it. I've managed to get about 400 faction points though light PVP play since the patch, I'm sure that more dedicated PVP players have thousands of faction points to unlock items/skills/runes/whatever.

The new faction point system isn't too hard, points are easy to get even if you spend even a small part of your time PVP - if you choose to. People are just complaining for the sake of complaining - perhaps in their mind their gripes are justified, but reality is quite different. People use extremes to illustrate their points, when in truth, it's not nearly as bad as either side makes it out to be.

Just what uber magical items you envision that exist in this game that unbalance a PVP match so badly that you get owned and can't understand why?

Just what uber ltem exists in the game that makes a spike group killers? What about that FOTM Ranger spirit spam build? What about those wacky Koreans, and their poison/life drain/hex you until you're a puddle of jelly build? Or a monk smiter group? Seed ball group?

Answer: Nothing. You got owned by a creative guild who has developed tactics using simple skills and professions. That "Godly" Chaos Axe (please read that with the sarcasm I intended) didn't beat you. Lightning spike, Lightning Orb, and Chain Lightning aren't even elite skills. You can buy (fairly cheaply, i might add) ANY rune you wish except for those few Superior runes everone craves, but in the end, they won't defeat a team that works well together with a creative use of skills and strategy.

Watch what other teams are doing during a match, and you'll see that spellbreaker, life bond, healing seed, strip enchantments, lightning strike, and teamspeak beat you, not a max dmg flaming doohickee of godliness.

Where does he find the items to do the things he wants? Play through PvE. Where does he buy the items he wants? PvE?. Where does he get the gold to make his purchases? Play through PvE. What if he wants pure PvP to get those things? Play through PvE, and s....l.....o.....w....l....y earn faction points. All the while he is losing (at times) in part due to a system rule set that does not allow him to fully stretch out his creative legs when it comes to forming and executing a vaible strategy that he knows will work. Not without first going through hundreds of hours doing PvE unlocking exercises.

OK, so he finally got the ONE set of skills he needs to defeat that ONE strategy he anticipates. What does he have to do to access ALL the options he needs to skillfully defeat the hundreds of other team build ideas out there? Play through PvE. And devote hundreds of hours to "earning" faction points, which is itself a PvE play mechanic.

PvE fans don't need to do more than one PvP play mechanic (forced competition) and they can be happy with what Guild Wars offer. Sadly, PvP fans don't have the same option in avoidin useless PvE mechanics when they want purely skilled based competition for both sides.

Alright, since there's a whole lot of beatin' around the bush here I guess I'll pull off a similar bit.

Arredondo, who the hell are you to say what's "PvE mechanics" and what's "PvP mechanics". Are you judging it off an FPS game? If this is the case than your logic is flawed from the start because this is NOT an FPS game, this is a game, for the most part, like no other. You can't just say "Oh, unlocking things is just a PvE mechanic, it shouldn't be in PvP" because that is YOUR opinion and nobody has pointed that out yet. It's your opinion and nothing more.

You know the new Battlefield 2 requires you to UNLOCK the better guns by playing through the game a while and accomplishing more. You don't have everything given to you from the start. Does that mean that it's not using "PvP" mechanics? Hell no.

Quit saying there are "PvE" mechanics in this PvP, because if it's in PvP it's OBVIOUSLY a PvP mechanic as well, you just don't like it.

I'm trying to figure out how the hell you got the idea it was a PvE only mechanic anyways. Just because you have to unlock stuff in PvE doesn't mean it's a "PvE" mechanic, or that they're favoring PvE more than PvP. You can't just say it like that, it's your opinion and nothing more.

And I guess that's all that needs to be said really, a good many of the good points in these threads, including a few in my posts, haven't been touched, so I'll let other people discuss those.

Ok, the realistic number is 400 hours to unlock all skills.

I don't think you understand what competitive game play is.

Lets see, you got 400 faction points and an elite costs 3,000. On that time scale we can go back to the 600 number.

The new faction point system is flawed in a couple of ways, perticularly in the distribution of the points (imo).

While I would like UAS I Dont think it would be right, Not that im a PvE Fan but nothing is more Frustrating than someone getting what you earned in 500 Hours in 1second. I Would just much rather have a Full alternative way to unlock in PvP without the need for PvE, Not a button that is an Insult to the work PvE Players have spent time into.

Having to "earn" gear from the league in order to start on a level playing field with those who can already use that gear against you is squeezing a PvE play mechanic into a PvP activity. Screaming and yelling won't change that fact.

It's not a wonder that you don't spend hundereds of hours to "unlock" gear to the league's satisfaction in order to compete with the same stuff your opponent uses against you in countless sports, games, and other serious competitive activities. Screaming about it won't change these truths, as I'm merely defining the obvious.

As for BF2, of the only review I've seen that mentions the weapon unlocking, they had this to say:

Like I said, depending on how anyone shoehorns it in, forcing PvE play mechanics in PvP activities (live or electronic) UNDERMININES COMPETITIVE GAMING. Even early versions of the retail CS:Condition Zero upgrade (before Source) experimented with PvE play mechanics and it failed. After months of development, they threw it out for the version that was eventually released. Why? Because unlocking PvE play mechanics go against the idea of pure skillful competition.

I wasn't insulted playing Half Life 2 PvE when I "earned" the gravity gun midway through the game even though I used it in Deathmatch PvP mode already. In all activities, when it comes to competition, it is your skillful use of all that is available that determines the outcome - no influence by PvE mechanics imposed by "the league" at all.

Getting stuff over time is a PvE play mechanic. Outwitting and out playing your opponent when you both start on a level playing field with all options open is a PvP play mechanic. It hurts the playability of one when it is squeezed into the playability of the other. I don't want to earn PvE access to Lion's Arch by winning 100 PvP matches either.

Not only is Half-Lifes 2 Single player and Multiplayer not linked togehter in any way, but there is NO unlock system in the game you find the weapons reguardless if your in Single player or Multiplayer. Your trying to compare a game that has Nothing incommon except they both have PvP.

UAS Would be the best thing for the pure PvP Players but this is just not Pure PvP There has to be a balanced alternative to be fair.

You buy HL2. You choose from the start PvE or PvP. In PvE you earn your weapons slowly. In PvP, it's all open from the start for balanced competitive play.

You buy GW. You choose from the start PvE or PvP. In PvE you earn your weapons/gear slowly. In PvP, it's hundreds of hours away from all being open for balanced competitive play. Can You PvE and ignore PvP play mechanics? YES! Can you PvP and ignore PvE play mechanics? NO!

Please stop being so incredibly presumptious and condescending.

Many teams obviously have plenty of out-of-game skills that lead them to win. That doesn't change the fact that the game isn't fair within the limits of the game.

Most of my PvP experiences are not from the Tomb of Primeval Kings, so every presumption you have about how much I've lost is pretty pointless. Now you can go ahead and say that I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm not an expert Tomb's player. But that's irrelevant.

There is no fair venue for PvP within the game. Maybe it's mostly fair, but there's no reason we should keep fair PvP out of Guild Wars. I'm not lobbying to remove the (unfair) PvP that exists, I just want a new venue that is fair.

I don't think people are even against my idea. I think many people are against "Unlock Everything", which they decide is what I'm lobbying for after skimming what I write.

Fair PvP is not the same thing as unlocking everything in PvP.

You aren't seriously suggesting that getting rushed to Droknar's is a fix for any issues, are you? Also, good for you that you are uber and elite and can finish the game so quick. But what about first time players? What about casual players less skilled than you? They aren't less deserving of having fun. =)

Out of curiousity, how many hours do you play each week?

I'm just curious how many hours it took you to get 400 faction. I'm only up to 200.


Whether or not something is "justified" is an opinion. Reality isn't a part of that. =)

And yes, it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Whatever you are talking about. ;-)

that is interesting.

please tell me what and how much at what rate you would consider fair.

as a separate question how popular do you think an unlock everything arena would be if there was no
ranking
reward
or record of the match

simply play for the fun of it wide open

An arena wouldn't be popular, however a tombs counterpart would be interesting

Arredondo don't even try to compare GW to Half-Life 2. The two games are nothing alike. Do you have to grow levels in "PvE" mode in HL2? Do you have to buy any weapons? Do you have to buy any new armor? Do you have to find crafting materials to craft other materials to craft "armor"?

The two games are nothing alike so quit using that horrible comparison. And you never answered or even responded to my comments.

Quit saying "PvE" mechanics, it is not "fact" that unlocking is a "PvE" mechanic, it is YOUR opinion, and nothing more. If it's in PvP, it's obviously also a PvP mechanic. Now put away your irrelivent comparisons to other games, and start throwing out some valid points for your argument.

my "non-point".

made by someone who apparently knows what they are talking about...and an apparent PvPer no less.

go figure.

This is one of the most intelligent posts I have read on a board in quite a while. I wont even bother to read all the stuff that follows. Arredondo, I hope you submitted that for feedback to A-net. I just wish it wasn't to late to bring back all the people that already said to hell with it.

Ok so I did read alot of the flames. Well 2 pages anyway of mostly people bumping their thread count I guess. Someone else stated the damn obvious which was the earlier beta version of this game was so much smoother. My fun comes from trying new builds and playing with RL friends which both have been smashed since release. I keep hoping this will change but with each patch I just see the lack of it. If this game wasn't free and paid for I wouldn't even bother to be here.

You would probably find that most PvPers would be more than happy to settle for a fun and easy way to unlock instead of UAX. UAX is just used because there is not other current solution and it is easier to argue black vs white than the grey areas.

Eh. Don't worry about it. He never responded to my question about when someone's actually playing Guild Wars, either. That said, his posts are getting more literate and more thought-out as time goes on. I'm impressed. He almost has me convinced: if I were actually in this solely for the Tribes- or CounterStrike-like experience, I would be convinced by now.

But I'm not. I'm still holding on to the hope that Guild Wars will be the first game that will enable actual wars, at least to the extent that successive victories translate to better resources available to the winning team in a series of matches against a specific opponent, i.e., that Guild A would in some actual sense be able to wage a campaign against Guild B.[1]

The model of automatically granting all available resources to both A and B every time they set up a battle flies in the face of this dream, which is why I am not in favor of a UAx button or anything like it.

—Siran Dunmorgan

[1] Ideally, Guild A would be able to take away resources originally belonging to B.

Imagine if there were only—for instance—a thousand Runes of Superior Vigor in the whole game, and teams that used them also risked losing them in battle.

Now, that would be Guild Wars, and to the Rift with sports.

But, again, I know that folks who see this as sports rather than wars aren't going to let this happen, more's the pity.

Colophon: You'll notice, incidentally, that this perspective has nothing to do with 'PvE'. I'm in this for a better PvP experience, one that takes into account more than a single battle.

Rather I agree with the original poster or not is irrelevant. That's a great post.

See I don't think you should be able to take things from people, but I do want to see wars. I want to have a giant enviornment, two teams, that can get up to like a hundred or two hundred or something in numbers, and say it's just a big enviornment, a slab of Tyria with towns and what not, but only the two "teams" or sides or whatever are there. And they wage war, day after day, night after night, no "blue team wins" or anything like that. Say I want to get together 40 people and raid the enemy's town, I want to then go do that.

If PvP weren't so linear, and so "countdown timer, so and so gained a morale boost, blue team wins!" sort of thing, faction, gear, skills, none of it would matter NEAR as much. It's the whole two small teams sitting there, waiting for a timer, they die, and then do it over again in a new "match".

I think people are so concerned about the skills because skills and using them in builds is about the only depth there is to the game. If we actually had WARS, with big giant battles, with MULTIPLE parties, everyone trying out their skill against another giant team in a massive fight---that would be cool. We can already have several teams of 8 in the tombs---why not actually have a giant war with greater numbers? You wouldn't even need a party to go in and do it, you could go in solo and it not matter because of how many parties there'd be, nobody would ever single you out knowing you're not in a party.

I think PvP just needs less emphasis on "winning" and more emphasis on just fun, PvP battles.

However, I don't think a UAX is the way to go about doing it. I personally would just like to see a big enviornment, fighting in towns, etc. That would be cool, less dependant on "gear" and more about fun.

I did submit a post in the sanitarium about it, but it died off after a page or two...

Wrong game, Play WoW if you want a game where you zerg or be zerged and your items make the player.

Every time I play a game like this and go onto forums related to it, I see threads like this.
Every time, they disgust me.
If you are not willing to spend the time earning the best skills, you don't deserve them.
If you do not have the time, then find a game where everyone is on equal footing. I suggest Rune, by Human Head Studios. If it is not so off-topic, I will say that that game starts everybody on the same footing, and you experiment yourself and learn new things.

And it brings me back on topic, because whatever game you play, you need to spend the time to learn certain things. You don't get zapped with all the knowledge you ever need, and everything to go with it. Like arredondo was chastized: "Shall we just hand you everything without you taking the time to learn what you should?"

Maybe you haven't considered that what you are suggesting means any n00b who just starts the game can get a good build somebody posted (thank you, everyone who gave their strategies to everyone - including the idiots who don't understand what to do aside from using the good skill combo), go into PvP, and be on the same footing as someone who's been playing for months.
It won't work in a game with this many players.
If you want something like that, go play Rune. That is where personal prowess matters, where your individual skill impresses and means something.
Do something like this in guild wars and PvP will slow to a gradual halt.

IMO total pvp in this game is pointless. There's no story, nothing to strive for - aside from keeping your guild ranking.

By that logic high end PvP should be dead within a week, however I highly doubt it will be.

Oh hush. It sucks in WoW and in most any other RPG that uses that style. Nobody likes gettin' ganked by the lvl 80 guys coming to kick ass and who don't get scratched by your lvl 50.

If guild wars implemented it it would be the only decent form of it out there, because everyone and their mom has a lvl 20 character, and there wouldn't be any "Calling high lvls to the city to protect us!" or any shit like that. It would actually be a fair fight, not highest level = wins.

And doing so would make it so that items DON'T make the player, as I...clearly said in my post. In a war with so many people there's no way in HELL you items can make you God. Which is why it would be so wonderful if we actually had wars in this game. I want guild wars, not guild skirmishes or practice fights.

Also I think it would encourage more players to actually play PvP, right now people just play it because PvE will eventually get boring and there's nowhere else to turn. Though the PvP in this game is, in my opinion, really really lacking when it comes to depth. I mean what's the motivation? Why PvP? Because there's nothing left to do in the game?

I just wish we had a form of PvP that actually meant something, instead of "Ok GG guys, that lasted 8 minutes instead of 3!" Or "this is our 5th consecutive battle, rock on!"

I don't know about you, but I'd be a hell of a lot more inclined to get more involved if I could stand over a city we just raided as I watch the enemy forces retreat out of their own town, knowing that in 10 minutes they'll be back with full force and we'll have to fight to defend what we just recently took control of.

Not "alright I've got THIS build so I can be 1337 now!" more like "I'm part of this army and I'll do my part" sort of thing.



*sigh* I can dream.

I would certainly use that arena, if only to test new builds.

I dunno, ive had some musings about the pve character and faction points myself. Ive grinded away 3k worth and unlocked some stuff, but i find it kinda pointless if i have to delete one of my characters to get the advantage of the unlocking process. Its even more pointless, if things superior vigor runes continue to be out of stock at the rune trader for instance, for the pve character to exist if i can unlock it via pvp method. I understand the logic behind some of the choices with the dual nature of this game, but the above is fairly odd. It just turns into grinding with a pve character in order to remake the same pvp characters over and over again, but in this instance grinding with a pvp character to remake it over and over again. With the rune trader, i thought the game was moving in a direction where more static gaines could be passed between pvp and pve, but it looks like i was wrong.

Also, i find it rather odd that the characters will move from the random arenas to the team arenas after a certain number of wins. Basically this means if a character hasnt ascended, for whatever reason, they could in theory get on a good team and get sent to the team arenas. Then they would most likely lose, but the character would be dropped off in droknar's forge, skipping a large portion of the game content. Granted the same character could get into a group and do the southern run, but id say that the likelyhood of getting into a random decent group for the arena is probably better than randomly getting into a good group to do the run to droknar's forge from beacon's perch. As it stands there are alot of ways to skip through the game's content, i dont really think that this is neccacary. I do think that the premis behind the matchup system is good, but the game should have logic to return the character to the point of origin instead. I also think that the matchup system could be advanced a step further, in the sense of the fame system, where people would begin pvp in the competition arenas, then earn the right to the team arenas, then finish by earning the right into the tombs competition, instead of allowing the pvp character to just choose to go wherever on creation. It is all pvp, but every aspect of the game could do with a bit more filtering and ranking in terms of player competence instead of percentage of game completed.

In removing the xp from the kills in the arena, has the dual effect of freezing the character in pvp. This also reinforces the idea that if the character wants to try something different, to just delete and remake instead of just re-using the same character. This is particularly crippling to a PvE character, that chooses to respecialize in order to pvp. Points should be frozen in mission areas and have unlimited spending in non-mission areas such as towns or competiion waiting areas.

Play planetside. Even in the ideal playground that planetside resembles for you, there are many pitfalls and holes in the gameplay style. Many of the problems do fall to equipment, while some of them fall to scale and server issues and an overarching lack of structure. Guildwars has some structure to the pvp, but it needs alot more before it can be truly unique.

I know what you mean, I did play planetside for a while but I got tired of it. Seemed like a good idea that fell in the wrong place.

I know the idea's been done before in other games, but all those games had several major flaws that aren't present in Guild Wars. Which is why I'd love to see it.

I like the idea Loviatar tossed out (to get more on topic)

Seems to me like that would please a fair amount of people.

It's not a matter of rates, it's a matter of making a game type where everything is equal, at least according to in-game abilities (including equipment of all kinds, etc.) Obviously it's true that if everyone has everything, it's equal. It's also true that if everyone has nothing, it's equal, but that's not a good idea either.



I think people would play it quite extensively, for multiple reasons:

1) Just for fun, to do wacky things and try skills they don't have available on other characters (whether PvP or PvE).

2) For practice and testing. Trying out new skills before you spend valuable faction points on them seems quite useful. More generally, I think serious teams would be very happy to practice in an unrated format.