12 vs 12 ruined..

/signed, has anyone of the GW team seen and posted in this thread, sorry too lazy to search 6 pages!

one of many problems in factions!

Completely and utterly /signed.

If you missed that... /signed.

/signed, Bowman Artemis.

P.S. /signed.

Equally it is the fault of the rest of the team.

Because people aren't wanted for PUGs is once again not my problem. They should gather up some friends or guildies.

Yup, that's the problem we were having in the FPE, we were running around capping, then another two or three people decided to try the same and got themselves killed every now and then. Didn't matter too much though, individual kills don't have a devastating effect on the overall battle.

Except you have to have a team of 8 to go into HoH and stand a chance, 12v12 gives small, good guilds a shot at stardom, and no matter how good some players might be, there will always be equally poor players to balance it out, and in that aspect, I don't mind if its as elite as HoH.

Okay, so the metagame has been once again changed, monks now need to pay more attention and use alot of skill to heal other allies if they choose to, great.

So the community is disasterific? I don't see what this has to do with the topic at hand.

Then they should have made team builds with the classes they wanted, I don't see why they're whinging that no-one wants to play a class that they don't want to play. :/

Exactly, stop whinging about the changes to Alliance battles and adapt to them.

When anyone from your alliance spends your faction's faction, it adds to a total, and the alliances with the highest total control cities and stuff, or so I hear.

I play it because I enjoy it, if beating the crap out of everyone else with very good team coordination and devastating skill combinations rising from that is the way I enjoy it, so be it.
I never said you shouldn't play this game the way you want to.

Well okay, well whether or not you want to do battle is nobody's problem but your own, because I'm pretty sure Anet doesn't care.

Oh, so witty. Running out of ideas?
I can post right here, because there's an argument to stifle. If you try to start one, don't then attempt to brush it away.

...I said this? Quote please.
Because as far as I remember, I clearly said that I enjoy the mass of players, both good and bad, battling it out while I go and capture points behind the front line and assist on various fronts.

...When did I say people shouldn't get a chance to play? When did I say I am a god? Once again, quote please.

Um, okay... So they don't have a chance to do any battle because of these changes? I don't exactly see where Anet wrote "You cannot do battle if you are a newbie!".
They can wait until finals are over, then get a group together, and do battle. I really don't see the problem here.

/signed

It tells us what we already know - there are far too many scrubs playing this game who come to forums and bitch about changes that don't fit their narrowminded view of the game. It happens every time a farming build is nerfed, and it happened tenfold after the AI update (people refer to it as the AoE nerf, even though nothing was done to the AoE skills at all).

If you don't like building a team, play Random Arenas. If you can't even make a 4-player team to play a fun new mode, then I don't know about you. All you need is three other willing people, many of which are already hanging around the outpost saying, "LFG".

I think i just realized a core issue here. It isn't 12v12 anymore. It's 3 groups of 4 vs. 3 groups of 4. Though numerically, that adds up to 12, it doesn't feel like it. I seriously think that at the minimum, we should be able to talk with all of our allies, not just the 3 in the group, and also, if the groups aren't one big conglamerate, that we should at least have the other 8 in the Allies section.

I'm definately with you on that one, throwing random healing spells around every now and then doesn't sound remotely possible now and communicating strategies through local isn't exactly a good idea. :P

Though since alot of people are from American servers on this forum (I think so at least), they haven't exactly experienced exactly how useless the team channel was in the FPE at least.
We had to wait about 15 minutes to get into a battle towards the end of the event (I don't know how it was for you), and when we got in, we'd end up with three italians, two french and a handful of germans. Now call me crazy, but team channel didn't do us any good there, and even the english speaking players don't listen to anyone for the most part.

On the other hand, drawing directions on the minimap seemed to actually have effects.

In the end, we need to have communication in such battles, just in case.

Actually, there are still leavers. Instead of one or two people leaving now, we get groups of 4 leaving.

/Signed

From my experiences during the FPE, one people leaving just started a chain of leavers (most of the time).

Blah blah blah, mostly all that I saw. The only good idea from this mess of whining is to add an Battle Alliance chat section. Thats about it, the rest is all "omg change it back! I have tunnel vision!"

I swear people have to be morons not to realize that you can still just rush in with an utter random group. If there are this many complainers why don't you all just form your random groups of four and run on into 12v12 and simulate the stupidity and chaos that was there in the FPE.

Either way, I could careless. In FPE a good guild group would wipe the floor with the morons running around like headless chickens, and much the same happens now. The only gripe I have is the communication and party healing issues but oh well.

My experience was opposite during FPE. The most I would see is 3-4 leaver. Unless half the group leaves during the first few minutes, everyone ususally sucks it up and stay to the end to obtain the faction points.

Now I see whole groups of 4 leave during battle. Even my own team decided to leave once, after our monk Err7.

/signed for sure!!!

I see so many of you whining against us who actually enjoyed the old system, but really, it gave a chance for those interested in PvP that normally play PvE, a good, and most importantly FUN chance at making an impact in pvp.

Yes your guild groups would own the random headless chickens running around, but that was part of what made the old system so great...you had the freedom to do whatever you wanted! Nothing was forced and because of that people immensely enjoyed it.

When not getting frustrated at 10-15 minute waits (silly luxons, start fighting! lol) the time i've spent in the arenas has been dull and completely uninteresting. Four completely seperate groups running around randomly, no effort to communicate because it's nigh imposssible, and ragequitters still exist, really, you just don't see them now like others said, lol.

down by 300 points, i was one of 4 people left at the end of one match. kept trying to flank with the one dude left in my random party, but we were all otherwise gone.

thankfully though the new "if all points capped" timer is a great addition.

mass party spells like aegis and heal party can be limited to something like those closest, or whatever...

Just bring back the old system!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The people arguing for the FPE version want fun, the people arguing against take this game damn seriously and want things to be very competitive, just the way GvG and HoH is. People arguing for the way it is now want it to turn into another HA, but dont realize that there are many more people that want it to be a random FUN battle, not a LFG spamming. And pretty soon there will be a point where every group has the same damn builds and itll get where you have to have the same cookie cutter build just to play.

F***ING A!

THATS IT! That is EXACTLY IT! ;_;

Dude for the first time today I hear logic from someone and I am honestly crying! THANK YOU! So simple and to the point that somewhere in my long windedness I never managed to get there >_<






Not if ya gotta flash rank to get a group... Do you fail to read you do you just lack the common capacity for logic?

*sighs* Are you going to take a mesmer into battle with you? Into Alliance battles? What about an assassin?
No I doubt you will and let me guess: this isn't your problem right? It's theirs?

Well you are becoming OUR problem right now, because they are voicing their opinion about problems like you and if the opinions of others doesn't matter to you and the issues at hand are not your issues - then why are you posting?

Is it because you too have something to fear?

I don't want my guildies to have to flash their ranks

And I am sorry but this is where where I lost interest in your post: As for this being a good way for a guild to get their stardom ya goomba that is what GUILD VS GUILD battles are for! DOH! -_-
Also, anyone else notice that guilds do 8v8 in HA.... Isn't that called Hall of Heros... It's pretty empty right now so there is your chance -_-

I have nothing more to say to you... If you can by chance dig somewhere deep down inside and come back with some logic that works, please do so and do so in more intellegent ways then saying: Your problem isn't my problem! (it seems so very middle schoolish and I refuse to bicker with you any further on common logic...

Cause right now I am speaking out for those who are having the problems!





Someone remind me to go through this thread and add people I can't hold a intellegent convo with to my ingame ignore list? (ooh is there an ignore list on this board? ...I hope darwinism comes to save me...)







I lead some of those headless chickens to battle and won... It's no different but bonds are made there - with cheering in local chat afterwards that you don't see now...

It's not tunnel vision we just want something FUN... If you want your HoH builds or team builds then take them to HoH or to teams! Where the rest of us FUN people don't go any longer because we aren't allowed to by elitest like yourself.

I def agree with you guys

/signed

*cough* loch you're wrong *cough*
This would be different from the nerfs, which in, most cases i believe in, but that's me, but this is about a whole pvp battle type. But from what im reading here you are a hard core gamer, or at least someone who has no problem plunking down signifacant amounts of time to find groups, also it seems to me that you are one of those who think that casual gamers are all noobs, ect. Well guess what we're not. We, well myself at least, don't like to spend 20 minutes attempting to get into a group, which could break down and be full of quitters or be a victim of quitters in the other teams (which now leave in groups of 4). Also when you are getting a random group together people are less likely to join since now you have control over the group they will want a monk and the monk will be picky over what type of the builds he joins. Also people are less likely to stand around now since it is boring as heck since Anet killed the FUN in Alliance battles. My thoughts only. Also believe in team chat, squad chat, and ALLIES health bars being visible, and if Anet fears unbalanced combat not being affected by heal party, ect.

Character Name:

The Domination Lord
Hideo Takahashi

Guild:

[xRPx] Redemption of the Phoenix

/signed

Sooooo true derrtyboy!

I brought this issue up with my guild, and sure enough, the same split holds true...

members of the ladder squad vehemently posted against my thoughts saying that this was a serious matter of utmost importance and needs to be regulated all for the sake of winning, while other pve members and casual gamers responded that they wanted the fun of the FPE version back again.

Competitive hardcore PvP'ers already control PvP (except randoms, and the now deserted competitive pvp missions).

Let the casual and PvE'ers that truly found the old system have their fun again!!!

This will not hurt all you "uber-hardcore l33t guildie groups" instead, think how much you'll benefit? You get to roll through the masses, help your team, and the masses (i'll be one of them, w00t!) will get to have their random chaos, and soon enough we'll learn the benefit of working as a team (as was shown many times for me at least during the preview) and we'll LEARN!!

Alliance battles could've formed a nice middleground to let the casual into the realm of pvp, instead it's going down the hardcore route, which is already sastisfied enough....

so go ahead, continue to split the community more when Anet has said repeatedly that they want both sides to merge! Alliance battles could've been the place!! Bring back the old system!

Well said Kieren! and A User Name *giggles* nice name ^_^

/signed

What, you don't like where something is going so you start throwing out insults? Very mature.

Nope, I play in a guild team. Whatever we decide to use, we use.

Because I needed to point out that not everyone hates the new changes? Because some people like the new changes?

Then play with your guildies.

Running out of ammunition? More insults! Yay!

First you say that I fail to read, hah!
Go back, I clearly said SMALL guilds. Not every guild under the sun can get 8 people online at a given point often.
But in any case, nope, new guilds don't stand much of a chance of getting to the top in either one, because of the constantly improving skill of the best guilds, whereas in AB there are BOUND to be bad players.

In other words, you don't want to continue an argument because its too difficult/frustrating/time-consuming so you bail out? Be my guest.

Wow! More insults and fear of a continued argument, what a surprise...

I also notice that you didn't address most of the counter-arguments in my last post, should I take that as meaning you concede to all the points you ignored, or do you plan to respond to them?

no you should take it as I said, that I stopped reading your post when you got to the guild comment and that is exactly the issue I don't want for my guildies... It was laughable to me, just as I am sure my points are to you.

I do appologise for the insults they were out of line...
I am trying to make the point that if you yourself were a mesmer and didn't have your guild to back you up but wanted to play in those battles or hand no rank/title to your name you couldn't get in and then how would you feel?

I don't have that issue and I guess I can count myself lucky, but I don't!
I know a lot of people who try so hard to fit in that they lose sight of what is important - the fact that it is a game and it was meant to be FUN!

It has lost its fun for 90% of the players! Read all of the other threads.... So it's ok for 10% of you to have fun but it sure is going to be one lonely game... *shrugs* If the majority of the GW population saw it as fun the way it is I wouldn't be complaining - I just wouldn't be playing.

However if ya want to start a thread to keep it the way it is, do so by all means!

The reason I took such offense is because the message board I hail from if someone highlights every detail in someone elses post and picks it apart piece by piece, it is because they are looking for a fight...

I just don't want to play by your rules and it's as simple as that. You have your opion but the OP of this thread started it with his and thats the leading of the thread... My point was go make your own about why we are so wrong in wanting to have fun.

/signed

This is a bit odd considering all the complaining done after the FPE. FPE was fun. I think that method was fine, people left a screwed up games and stuff. That can still happen now though. The party wide skills were powerful but they are supposed to be that powerful. Judging by the size of this thread though I am sure that it will be changed back to the FPE style in due time.

I think that ANet meant well with all of the changes. They heard the concerns that the community had with the system and they changed it. They had the best intentions in doing so; however, it seems the original version was best.

Fair enough then Eviance, but you have to bear in mind the name of the game, Guild Wars.
Everyone really should be aiming to be in a good guild, and Anet aren't going to go out of their way to make it otherwise.

You say you don't want me to play by "my rules" for discussion. Your first reply to me was centred around the fact that you didn't like the way I played AB, and that I should follow "your rules" for AB..

Lastly, I never said you were wrong in wanting to have fun, I said I like things the way they are now.
You can pursue having things changed back, just as I can pursue having them remain the same.

A simple solution to this, I think, is have two different types of Alliance Battles. One random, like it was during the FPE, and one like it is now. It would be real easy to implement and understand.

If you just enter the battle without any teammates, it would slap you in a random alliance battle, where everyone is entering without teammates to be put into 12-person teams, like the FPE version. If you form a 4-person team, then it would put you in that type of alliance battle (along with the suggestions of having the other two 4-person teams shown as allies of your team, instead of not at all).

Both types would work exactly the same with the exception of how the teams are formed, that's it. I think it would work fine and make everyone happy. But hey, what do I know?

I still think you missed my point on that last bit, but no matter... I found a more interesting thread on this and plan to see where it leads... >_>

I will be watching you sir =P

(again sorry for being a royal bitch, comes with the ovaries ya know <_< )



~_^

Nope, Europe already has (had during the FPE, at least) waiting times of 10 minutes plus to get into AB, making TWO ABs would increase the waiting times further, bad idea.

/Signed!!!

I loved the 12 vs 12 in the preview.

Oh crap man you keep posting and now I am curious... If it were two total different setups how would it delay? I mean if they aren't going into the same battle fields - all seperate but the same?

A lot of people came on the forums to whine about the AI changes too, it was still a change for the better. The 12v12 is mean to function with 3 smaller squads of 4. This is why in the screen you could have a party of four. What ended up happening is a bunch of players would make crappy assassin builds, join up, be dead weight, and when their team even starts to look behind they quit. The more complex objective system simply isn't designed to work with completely random teams. The gametype wasn't functioning properly due to playerbase issues so the barrier to entry had to be raised. Now the minimum is that you need four players to enter. Thus your build needs to be semi-respectable and you need to be able to work with a team. In addition you have a degree of commitment to the other three allies you chose reducing the desire to just map out once things start to look down.

If you want to play with just any old build Random Arena still exists. On top of this there are still 8v8 maps that involve a fully random team just work your way into the PvE a bit more and give them a shot. Try these out, they are exactly what you are asking for.

A significant portion of the playerbase didn't want Faction's new PvP type completely ruined by players who don't even try.

JR knows his stuff when it comes to PvP, he knows far more than you ever will. I suggest before you try to claim a distinguished and experience player doesn't know what he is talking about you actually read what he says, stop, and then think. Just because both sides have access to a skill doesn't mean that it is impossible for that skill to be overpowered (look at what happened to gale.) Quite simply Heal Party, Extinguish, and other party wide enchantments were far too strong and that needed fixed.

I noticed that breaking the alliance battles into 3 groups of 4 makes it very very difficult to know that people have quit in the middle of the battle. I dont know why, but the quitting message doesnt always appear. And if people from the other teams quit, you wont know.

So could this be a sneaky way to hide the ragequit problem that was rampant in the FPE?

/signed.

This was one of the MAIN reason I bought Factions. And I know my son is completely disappointed over it too.

The only thing I ever complained about was people leaving. This didn't solve the problem. Now, instead of just one or two randomly leaving, you have a whole group of four. And you don't even know if its your team.

I'm very disappointed in this version they've stuck us with. The original 12v12 was fun. This bites.

I don't have a problem with the new setup per-say, except that you can't even comunicate with any other team members much less see what they are running. Make team chat include all members on your side and put the other team members under the 'Allies' section of the party member window. Those 2 simple changes will, I believe, solve most of the problems with the system, aside from a lack of players at the moment.

Ya know Warskull I had a nice big post about how neither you nor JR are better than me or anyone else and vise versa and that you also failed to read any other post where I said how you could change the monk overpoweredness - but then I realized... I don't have to prove myself to you and even trying to would be a waste of valuable time.
Now if I am a newb or noob or however you elitest like to term it.... That is just fine with me, because that means I hold the element of surprise, because people like you will never take the time to get to know a person like me.

That and pm from a dev screwed it up as I was trying to edit it one last time >_> Thanks again Gaile XP (I mean that!)

Last Edit I swear: If ya see this as me making a cop, I dare ya call me on it, just so you can see how wrong you were...

Now I am taking my pregnant ass to bed where it should have been two hours ago!

Problem is, Sparky, that the people like the new 12-man format are outnumbered about nine hundred to one by extremely pissed-off people who are looking at GvG which is fun but intense beyond belief and completely impenetrable to lower-echelon guilds, looking at Hall of Heroes, which is corrupt beyond comprehension and actively hostile to anyone lower than r6 these days - Yes, even r3 isn’t good enough anymore – and seeing that they’ve been joined by the brand-new Elitist Hangout on the Block – Alliance Battles! Are random arenas the only place where people who don’t have twenty-two hours a day to devote to a game that is supposedly designed for the casual gamer are allowed? Are we supposed to be happy with a mindless, useless, unrewarded mode probably programmed in a day by a single drunken junior programmer who didn’t even know what game he was programming for? Let me put it this way – if YOU were barred, by rank and chosen professions, from playing anything but Random Arenas, would you not be pissed off?

You keep saying this like it’s the answer to world hunger. Let me tell you something, Mr. Ahruhk – finding a good guild is F***ING IMPOSSIBLE. Ninety-nine out of a hundred guilds out there are filled with complete and total morons, and ninety-nine of a hundred of the remaining guilds only recruit people with UAS accounts, r9, and a few thousand hours logged. Second such account highly recommended. In other words, elitist snobs much like yourself! Whee, overly-serious bastards FTW! And finding that one good guild in a thousand that is both worth joining and accepting of new players is…heh heh, not going to happen. I’m in a guild of only five standing members, and since all of them are good friends and skilled players, I’m a damn sight better off than most. People in mid-sized, coordinated guilds which always have enough members online for a battle, and always have members willing to fight, are living in a polygonal Shangri-La and should make blood sacrifices to the gods of old to make sure that they never get kicked out.

Actually Sparky, it is your problem. First of all because nine hundred pissed-off gamers to one happy gamer is a bad recipe for future chapters. And this is a FUBAR beyond even AoE Nerf proportions. Second of all because four anally overcompetitive play modes and one retarded moonchild play mode makes for many pissed-off gamers. And thirdly, because if there are enough pissed-off gamers, one of them is bound to put his poor, guildless, I’m-casual-so-I’m-automatically-unworthy-of-existence fist down your elitist throat, rip out your frozen, useless heart, and save it for the next Wintersday festival so he can use it as a snowball.

IT IS YOUR PROBLEM, SPARKY. Because it’s a problem for nine-tenths of the community, and you’re part of the community. As much as I loathe the thought of sharing a game with the likes of you.


Yeah, I’m just covering this to try and pound it through the heads of idiots. No, the squad system does not reduce ragequitting. Instead, people now ragequit in lots of four. One man in a squad gets pissed and drops, the rest of the squad inevitably follows. This is because you have now gone from four men against twelve to three men against twelve. Because, see, you are not actually on the same team as the other two squads on your side. They are in the same map, and possibly fighting the same enemies, but they have absolutely nothing to do with you and you have absolutely nothing to do with them. At the same time, all twelve of the enemy players know you for an enemy and can target and destroy you. This holds true for all six squads of four – each is four men against twelve.

No Thickskull, they’re not. 8v8 PvE missions are just that – PvE missions. They mostly suck. As for Random Arena, I do believe I’ve covered that. What we are asking for is the FPE form of Alliance Battles, or something reasonably close to it.

Ah, but know this, Thickskull – we have our own expert! If you want to get into a ‘My daddy can beat up your daddy’ contest, let’s point out that Ensign of the Idiot Savants was firmly and vocally behind the FPE 12-man format, as was the rest of his guild via Ensign’s posts. And as much as I respect JR’s experience and knowledge, Ensign wins.

To any other elitist snob I’ve left out, read the above and synthesize it to your own posts. You know who you are, and you know you’re just as horrible as Sparky and Thickskull here.

That said…I can see why breaking global enchants was seen as necessary. I can concede the concept of four-man squads, but NOT with breaking off all communication with the other eight members of what are supposed to be your team. This is bad. This is very bad. This is Alaskan oil spill bad. This is George Bush re-elected bad. Additionally, forcing specific four-man squads prevent units from forming on the fly. People ressing alongside guys from other squads cannot form up with those other members and create a new fighting unit, as was frequently done to great effect in the FPE, but instead must fight back to their own unit, which they very well may not be able to get to, in order to once again have support.

Fixes have been stated: ally windows, global enchants only affecting the eight nearest allies, various others. Honestly, I never even noticed global enchants in the FPE – of grater concern by far were Minion Masters, which have recently been fairly well shot in the head and are only useable by skilled, adaptable players. However you slice it, the current situation is completely untenable, and this is from a player with access to a TeamSpeak server and skilled friends with which to form a quite powerful 12-man assault squad. I cannot abide this new format, and neither can the vast majority of players in this thread.

GAILE! GET YER PURPLE HIDE IN HERE AND EXPLAIN!!!

Resuming ANET this is what we want :

1) make team mates visible to each other (put in a separate allies tab if you want but put it somwhere)

2) make possible (again) to comunicate with TEAMMATES in the team chat !!

3) allow random ppl to join the battle, maybe they should wait more, maybe they need to be at least 2 ppl, you choose, but let them in. (you can punish leavers some other way: make them w8 10 minutes to join again, make new "leaver" title or whatelse for them )

anything else?

/SIGNED

PS: Gaile please, let us know what you/ANET think about this. Cu and thx.

PPS: Still waiting for my CE

*Hears about individual party limit size of 4 in a highly competative, specialized area*



Well, I'll never be able to get a group with my sword ranger (prefered play style), and if I'm playing a bow ranger, they'll probably only want me for Spike or interrupt. Can't do spike without TS (don't heve the equipment) and I suck dearly at interrupt (poor connection), and barragers are a dime a gross.

Meaning, my chances of actually playing the game are very slim to none. Great. How fun. Wee.

So, I guess I owe a "Thanks for the heads up, guys!" to everyone in this thread. Now I know to avoid Aliance battles, because I'll never get a group.

I have bring up this quote from (I think) Vindexus about how you can't use names to tell you how to play a game or what it's about. "StarCraft sucked because I didn't get to craft any stars in it." If anything, it was clearly established in many, many other places that you could play Guild Wars without needing to group with other people or actually be in a guild at all. Sure, there are some logistical benefits to it, but it says on the box and in the manual that it is not required.

I have to agree!

This way it also lessens the leaving problem!.. in the FPE as soon as someone saw that another person has left they would give up immediatly! this would snowball into everyone leaving.

I have played alot of Alliance battles over this weekend and the FPE and I must say that leaving is less of a problem and every game ive played they have been very close matches, we have even come back to win from 100 points down!

However!

Serious PvP Players see 12vs12 as just a joke match, nothing serious at all! no better than Random Arenas..

We managed to get two teams of 4 to syncronise 'Enter Battle' and very often we got our teams together! and communicate over teamspeak which makes for a MUCH better game.

These would be my Suggestions

1] Alow communication between the two other parties of 4

2] Where possible, try to join up teams who are in the same alliance!

Alliance Battles are definatly something that needs to be sorted!.. I know LOADS of people who bought factions JUST for this.