Ranger Builds, Guides, and Tips
XvArchonvX
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Originally Posted by sha noran
If you are trapping then pulling such as when farming, sure SQ is fine and you shouldn't need any skill for evasion and Oath Shot is not appropriate since you would aggro enemies just to recharge your traps. However if you are trapping mid battle then the inability to use a stance will really hurt. Trappers focus would be ok to use with this since it is a prep, but you will have no defense while being attacked unless you have somehow found some way to fit some awesome enchantments into your skill bar.
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Originally Posted by xnightmythx
Sha’s Conjure Barrage Build:
-Savage Shot -Penetrating Attack -Barrage {Elite} -Conjure <Element> -Troll Unguent -<Fun Ele Skill> -Storm Chaser -Ranger Variable Im going to do UW tonight with a group of friends. This is the build I have chosen to take. The Ranger Variable will certainly be Rez. This will be my first time in UW that I am not going as a trapper. 109 ectos collected and I never fired a single arrow, lol. Any suggestions? Or do you guys recommend another build? Thx Guys. I'm a lot like you in that I've never used a ranger in UW unless as a trapper, so I'm not 100% sure what to reccomend, but throw dirt might be kinda handy at least at the beggining with the Aataxes (sp?). As for the rest, I think it really depends on how your party is built. If you have a MM a pet might be nice as an extra corpse. You may consider keeping a trapper build even if your group isn't going to do the same, but you may want to mod it to be a bit more battle ready. Sha might not like me suggesting this, but perhaps an oath shot trapper build might be good. However you will probably be fine with a straight conjure barrage build such as the one Sha posted.
Lasher Dragon
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Originally Posted by xnightmythx
These statements are incorrect.
Guys I just went to Isle of the nameless and tried to shoot the Master of enchantments guy who runs around like a mad man. I loaded Penetrating Shot, Savage Shot and Determined Shot. Determined Shot does what I remember it doing, if Savage or Penetrating is used and you miss when you use Determined it recharges both of the other 2 skills and Determined as well! Its great! I think you guys miss interpreted the skill definition. You are completely correct. I could have sworn I tried this skill out when I first got it, however long ago that was, and I seemed to remember it doing what I described. Perhaps I got confused with something else... huh, I wonder - does it recharge Pet Attacks? I imagine it would, but even then are there any pet attacks with a long enough recharge to make it worth bringing? The only attack I personally can think of that I'd like to recharge faster is Distracting Shot, but I usually run Oath Shot anyway... oh hey... Wonder if it will recharge Oath Shot? Too bad my computer isn't working.
Sha Noran
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Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon
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XvArchonvX: I'm tired of arguing with you about running Oath Shot with a Trapper build. Trapper's Focus and Serpant's Quickness are better. End of debate. I'm not going to argue about it anymore. You're just wrong. You're going to flame me now for just saying your wrong without proof, but I've typed extensive posts and rebuttals to you arguing my point and obviously your opinion isn't going to change. Run your shit build if you want, but your main concern seems to be that you'll be taking too much damage. How about instead of ruining your build to avoid a little damage, you get a Monk with more on his/her bar than grey boxes. Like Alesia. Once you put down your Dust Trap, the damage goes away ANYWAY.
XvArchonvX and Lasher Dragon: I corrected you're confusion regarding my statements on Poison and then went on to show that my build was better, and you changed the subject and said it wasn't about dealing damage. If you're running Conditions like Poison or Bleeding, you're running Conditions that cause damage, and therefore, you ARE a damage dealer. I'm tired of being told what a moron I am because of proving that I'm dealing more damage than you.
If you want Blind, the best source is an Elementalist, actually. If you want snares to protect your backline casters, again, Elementalists are better. That's why flagrunners in high end GvG are no longer Cripshot Rangers and are now, instead, played by Elementalists with Blinding Flash and Water Magic snares.
SnipiousMax: My arguments are primarily focused on PvE, but you are correct. Apply Poison is lightyears ahead of Poison Arrow in PvP because the teams you'll be facing in PvP very likely have CONDITION REMOVAL.
This brings me back to my points regarding Poison Arrow in PvE. It's more energy effectient because you DON'T HAVE TO USE IT ALL THE TIME. You don't NEED to reapply the Condition before it's duration is up, because that's a WASTE.
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Sha might not like me suggesting this, but perhaps an oath shot trapper build might be good. However you will probably be fine with a straight conjure barrage build such as the one Sha posted.
No, I actually really don't like you giving stupid answers to questions people ask on MY thread. Make your own guide if you think you have such a grand understanding of Ranger.
xnightmythx: Yes, a Conjure Barrage build would be good, however instead, I would strongly suggest instead a Judges Insight Barrage build. In the majority of the places in the Underworld, it is almost necessary that you have a single tank with all the agro. Running a JI Barrage build allows you to have your secondary as Monk, allowing for the skill Essence Bond. Keeping this on the tank will keep your Energy full or near to it the whole way. Also, of course, running /Mo allows you to bring a hard rez, such as Rebirth. You will likely find that this will come in handy after a long UW run. :-)
xnightmythx: Yes, a Conjure Barrage build would be good, however instead, I would strongly suggest instead a Judges Insight Barrage build. In the majority of the places in the Underworld, it is almost necessary that you have a single tank with all the agro. Running a JI Barrage build allows you to have your secondary as Monk, allowing for the skill Essence Bond. Keeping this on the tank will keep your Energy full or near to it the whole way. Also, of course, running /Mo allows you to bring a hard rez, such as Rebirth. You will likely find that this will come in handy after a long UW run. :-)
XvArchonvX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
Quote: Originally Posted by Sha Noran XvArchonvX: I'm tired of arguing with you about running Oath Shot with a Trapper build. Trapper's Focus and Serpant's Quickness are better. End of debate. I'm not going to argue about it anymore. You're just wrong. You're going to flame me now for just saying your wrong without proof, but I've typed extensive posts and rebuttals to you arguing my point and obviously your opinion isn't going to change. Run your shit build if you want, but your main concern seems to be that you'll be taking too much damage. How about instead of ruining your build to avoid a little damage, you get a Monk with more on his/her bar than grey boxes. Like Alesia. Once you put down your Dust Trap, the damage goes away ANYWAY. First of all, take a deep breath I'm not here to flame you. I would appreciate it if you toned down a bit however. I have not called any of your builds wrong, nor cussed once at you and I would hope that you could give me the same respect. I'm not out here to throw mud, but if I ever go against you in PvE I might throw a little dirt. ~.^
Here's how most civilized disputes go (at least the ones that end up providing any useful conveyance of information for those participating as well as listening). One person makes a point. The next person then gives a counter example and/or rebuttal. The first person then replies taking into account the information that was given as a counter example and either points out a flaw or gives another counter example, etc.
This is how the debate generally preceeded until now when you found it not necessary to present any more arguments. That is fine, I think I have explained my counter examples thoroughly and will leave them for those who are interested to draw conclusions of their own. As for myself I don't see the build useful everywhere, but I would not discount it as easily as you.
Quote: Originally Posted by Sha Noran XvArchonvX and Lasher Dragon: I corrected you're confusion regarding my statements on Poison and then went on to show that my build was better, and you changed the subject and said it wasn't about dealing damage. If you're running Conditions like Poison or Bleeding, you're running Conditions that cause damage, and therefore, you ARE a damage dealer. I'm tired of being told what a moron I am because of proving that I'm dealing more damage than you. Here was my reply to your previous point:
Quote: Originally Posted by XvArchonvX If you think that causing enemies to scurry is always a bad idea then I think you seriously need to go back and learn how to use it to your advantage. The key to this build is knowing when and where to use skills like flame trap.
If there are enemies grouped all around your tank, running up to drop a flame trap at them is foolish because first of all the enemies may be drawn to you simply by you getting close enough to where they can find an enemy with lower armor AL. Secondly as you stated, breaking good aggro on a warrior is foolish.
The smart way to use this build is to either a) sprint well ahead of your tank and drop a flame trap then run back behind the tank(this is only wise when going against enemies that will not snare you with slow spells or cause enough damage from spells to kill you) or b) find an enemy that has broken past your tank and blind him, then drop a flame trap at his feet to send him running away.
In a perfect game, the enemies will always attack nothing but the warrior, but the reality is that this will only happen if there are no enemies within range with lower armor AL. Since the monks need to get close enough to heal and casters need to get close enough to cast, enemies will often break from the warrior and go for softer targets. And here was my next statement regaurding another related subject:
Quote: Originally Posted by XvArchonvX To sum this up, I think the major source of our disagreement is as follows. I don't see rangers as a profession that is best suited simply dealing direct damage. I believe that casters and tanks can deal often deal larger amounts of damage than a ranger can depending on the builds used of course. Rangers however are given a much more diverse gift of power. They can interupt, and shutdown enemies to reduce the damage they deliver while dealing a decent amount of damage themselves. I believe that to a lesser degree of course, the ranger to conditions is much like the mesmer is to hexes.
I respect that you took so much time to make the guide that you did and believe that there are a lot of good tips that you gave that will help many others with their use of their rangers. However I do ask that you keep an open mind to other's opinions. Even though you have had your success with your builds and stragedies does not mean that others have not had the same with theirs. This was not meant to change the subject. We have been discussing many subjects at once and I made no intention of dropping or trying to evade one just because I brought up another. If you have a counter example or rebuttal to my reply, I am still free to hear it if you would like to share.
As for your point about my build being a damage dealer, yes, it is. However that is not all it is. The focus is on having flexibility. You can help the team deal damage, but if the folks in the back lines need help, there is also defense at hand to assist. If your party starts dying, Escape is there to help you get back and rez the team back to life so that a mistake in a party does not cause it to completely fail a mission. If the only point of my build was to deal damage, then measurement of damage alone would suffice to judge it's efficiency and yours would be more suitable. However my point was that was not how I was judging my build. I did make points to show that there was a respectible amount of damage being done in the form of degen, but that was not meant to show that the damage was superior to yours. If you find a place where I said it did more damage than your build, I would be more than willing to go back and correct myself.
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Originally Posted by Sha Noran
huh, I wonder - does it recharge Pet Attacks? I imagine it would, but even then are there any pet attacks with a long enough recharge to make it worth bringing?
No it does not. I just tried it at the isles. It seems to only recharge "your" attacks, and not "his" attacks.|
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
If you want Blind, the best source is an Elementalist, actually. If you want snares to protect your backline casters, again, Elementalists are better. That's why flagrunners in high end GvG are no longer Cripshot Rangers and are now, instead, played by Elementalists with Blinding Flash and Water Magic snares.
This is true that elementalists do perform this task very well and arguably better than rangers since nerfs to ranger skills. There really aren't as many rangers in PvP forms such as GvG or HoH anymore. However rangers do still come in second place in this as well as first in interupting abilities imo. I'm not sure if this statement was intended to be a counter example in your defense however since you made no mention of a way that a ranger could out damage these other classes. I would be interested in hearing this if it is something you believe. I only assume this since your primary method of judging many skills and builds seems to be largely held on the damage output. If I read this logic correctly, would it not then be wise to reccomend one choose a different profession rather than improve their build to something that is still lesser in damage output to other professions at best?
Your point has been heard and if apply poison was only being used against one target, then I would agree with you. However my uses of the skill are different than this.
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That's why you have Storm Chaser, which is a better option than wasting your Elite on Escape.
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You're not even reading what I post. I posted a specific example with the numbers right out there for you of why my Poison Arrow build is better and more effecient at Poisoning a GROUP of enemies than you Apply Poison build.
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Originally Posted by Sha Noran
Let's assume 0 expertise, versus 5 enemies, just to make these numbers easy: Your build uses Apply Poison as a prep so that every shot Poisons your opponent, then spreads this poison "quickly" by Savage Shotting around the group. Apply Poison (15e)+ Savage Shots(x5) (50e)= 65 Energy My build uses Kindle Arrows as a prep so that each shot deals a bit of extra damage, then uses Poison Arrow to spread some degen around the group. Kindle Arrows (5e)+ Poison Arrow(x5) (25e)= 30 Energy. The numbers arent lying. You say that you're build is too energy intensive to use Penetrating Attack, and it's your own fault. Since you seem to think Savage is so great at spreading the Poison "quickly", let's also look at numbers as far as time spent to Poison 5 seperate enemies with the two builds. You're build: Apply Poison (2 Seconds)+Savage Shot(x5) (25 Seconds)= 27 Seconds My build: Kindle Arrows (2 Seconds)+Poison Arrow(x5) (5 Seconds)= 7 Seconds If you want your arrows to move faster, use Read The Wind, don't spam Savage Shot. I don't know why you're even trying to argue about this anymore. Your build is not as effecient. I assumed that by posting it in my thread, you were looking to see if I had any suggestions for you or your build. I gave them, and you just wanted to explain why your build is better. I have argued the point, you won't be swayed. Ok, use your build then. It doesn't matter to me really, I was just trying to help you out. EDIT: Lasher Dragon: You posted as I did. Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon
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Sure, Trapper's Focus is nice, and it's lovely getting quicker skill recharge with Serpent's, but you have no defenses.
Wow, that's what I'm talking about changing the subject. You specifically said you dealt more damage, I proved you wrong, you brought up defense.
Using Healing Spring in the middle of the rest of your Traps gives you a very respectable and dependable heal, taking some of the pressure off of your Monks. Besides that, try using Dust Trap as soon as you have the agro on you. Once all of your attackers are Blind, the damage GOES AWAY. No need for stances if all of your attackers are Blind anyway.
Lasher Dragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
Wow, that's what I'm talking about changing the subject. You specifically said you dealt more damage, I proved you wrong, you brought up defense.
Using Healing Spring in the middle of the rest of your Traps gives you a very respectable and dependable heal, taking some of the pressure off of your Monks. Besides that, try using Dust Trap as soon as you have the agro on you. Once all of your attackers are Blind, the damage GOES AWAY. No need for stances if all of your attackers are Blind anyway. I am NOT changing the subject. Your SQ/Trapper's Focus trapper build, in a perfect world, will put out more damage than an Oath Shot trapper build. Notice I said " Most, if not all" - ok, so that build has the potential to outdamage an Oath Shot trapper build, assuming you live long enough. As for the Dust Trap issue, I don't know how long you've been trapping, but in my experience you cannot rely completely on a Dust Trap to prevent damage. For one, they nerfed the hell out of the blind duration. Ranged attackers outside of the Dust AoE will still nail your ass to the wall. If by chance an enemy gets a Disrupting Chop/Shot on your Dust Trap, you are just screwed, no two ways about it. Edit: Actually, no, I still think Oath Shot trapper build will do more damage than your New School trapper build. Why? You only have 12 WS.
Sha Noran
Actually you did change the argument. You said you could out damage me, you're wrong and I proved so (I don't care what you THINK, you're wrong), and then you changed and said "but... but... you have no defense!!11one". I told you how I did have defense, and now you say I don't. If you're Monks can't handle another Ranger shooting you, it's not your fault. How about if Ranger's are killing you in your hench groups, bring Alesia instead of Little Thom. You could also try wearing armor.
Originally Posted by Public Restrooms
I cannot possibly understand how you have too little defense to survive. I'm not going to argue about it, you're simply wrong. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about what is simply a futile argument. Quote: So...Determined Shot is like a mini-version of Oath Shot?
Not exactly; Determined Shot only recharges your other attack skills, and only when you miss. I only compared the two because of the slight similarity, and the fact that many Elites are Elite versions of similar non-Elite skills (i.e. Ice Spear/Water Trident).
Lasher Dragon
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Originally Posted by Sha Noran
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You put points in BM for 1 skill - Viper's Nest.
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NEVER put points into an attribute just to use ONE skill out of that attribute. Find another skill in a different attribute to use, then consolidate your points. A classic example of this is Tiger's Fury. People put points into beast mastery for this skill when they could easily replace it with Lightning Relfexes and consolidate their points.
GG
xnightmythx
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Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon
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Quote: Originally Posted by SHA Same. I wonder if they changed it; I assumed and seem to remember testing that it was much like the non-elite version of Oath Shot. Hmm... I'll certainly be dropping that off my useless skill list. Thanks for poiting that out xnightmythx. No problem. Its the least I could do considering all the hard work you have done.
Quote: Originally Posted by SHA
xnightmythx: Yes, a Conjure Barrage build would be good, however instead, I would strongly suggest instead a Judges Insight Barrage build. In the majority of the places in the Underworld, it is almost necessary that you have a single tank with all the agro. Running a JI Barrage build allows you to have your secondary as Monk, allowing for the skill Essence Bond. Keeping this on the tank will keep your Energy full or near to it the whole way. Also, of course, running /Mo allows you to bring a hard rez, such as Rebirth. You will likely find that this will come in handy after a long UW run. :-)
Last night the UW trip when great!(kinda) I used the conjure fire build. Although it worked awesome, I kept wishing I would have gone Mo just for rebirth, lol. As it was, I was the only one who managed not to die during the 3 hour trip. Man that place is HUGE! Unfortunately I had to use my rez signet on our Monk at about the 3 hour mark. Shortly after that they all died again and I found myself with no Rez. I love rebirth just for that reason. The unfortunate part was everyone but me got ecto. 
To be honest it usually doesn't matter to me, but considering my game was ON last night I thought the least I would deserve was an ecto, or a gold drop. I got nothing. Not even with my keys. Actually this trip cost me more than anything cause I had to give up like 6 CC lol. But the experience was worth it. Next time I go, I will try the JI Barrage build.
Poison shot = No Escape
No Escape = no evasion to be able to trap and no run skill
Only compensation for this = evasion stance + running stance = 2 skills
2 skill + 7 skills = 9
I welcome any counter examples you may be able to provide that can handle the tasks my build is meant.
Your argument against making enemies run from AoE damage reminds me of the huge outcry that came from the update that put that effect in place. while you can continue to see this effect as only negative, I would suggest that you observe the enemies behavior and learn to put this effect to your advantage. Understanding your enemies allows you to control them.
I believe your specific argument was that using the AoE effect would make enemies run and aggro enemies. If the trap was laid at the edge of your group where ideally the tank was holding aggro, this would be true. However the correct use of a trap to obtain the result I describe is to drop it at the feet of the casters. AoE damage causes enemies to generally run the full extent of about half an aggro circle to a whole one. Since your allies are spread out wider than this (unless you can get them to stand on eachother's heads) the collective aggro bubble of your group is greater than this, thus the enemies, when they reach the extent of their run, re-target and attack. While it is possible for them to attack the same enemy that you just made them run from, their damage potential was decreased due both in part by their running instead of fighting as well as their decreased health from the trap itself. If they are still kicking, then Throw Dirt comes into play. Since it has the long recharge time, it is best reserved as a backup for situations such as these.
The reasoning against barbed trap as stated before was partially because it crippled the enemy. I say this because the fleeing is limited chronologically so distance is not a factor. What this means is that when they run, they don't go as far. Because of this, barbed trap may be a good skill for those who wish to use a trap for the purpose I describe if they are not well adjusted to enemy behavior and want to make as sure as possible that the enemy does not flee farther than desired. However once enemy behavior is learned, it is possible to use Flame trap to give greater damage in combination with Hunter's Shot and increase the likeliness of getting the enemy to target an ally other than the caster you aim to protect.
As for the use of Savage Shot, I don't think you understand my implications. Apply Poison is used before the group is aggroed. Hunter's Shot is used to aggro since enemies are generally moving in patrols. Savage shot is spammed to the closest caster and generally catches them using their first spell. If it doesn't it still gets them poisoned as quickly as possible since it takes 1/2 of a second to shoot as opposed to the seconds that a normal shot takes. Regular or Hunter's Shots are then used from then on to poison additional foes for the most part. Savage Shot is a bonus that can be used as any new enemy approaches or as a skill is used by an enemy to be interupted.
Your major flaw in your logic is that all you did was multiply recharge times. While I'm sure that would make your old math teachers happy, this assumes that I aggro, then use Apply Poison. After this I would use Savage Shot on one enemy and afterwards stand around for 5 seconds not attacking anyone until the skill recharged before firing it again. If you seriously believe this is how I use this skill you are more than welcome to join a party whenever I use my build. I am spending a lot of time on my 2nd ranger so I'm free anytime you want to join me.
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Originally Posted by Sha Noran
An Oath Shot Trapper most certainly does not out damage most of my builds. That's simply a stupid thing to say. On the most simple comparative scale, my Trapper's Focus build outdamages an Oath Shot Trappper anyday. To be honest it usually doesn't matter to me, but considering my game was ON last night I thought the least I would deserve was an ecto, or a gold drop. I got nothing. Not even with my keys. Actually this trip cost me more than anything cause I had to give up like 6 CC lol. But the experience was worth it. Next time I go, I will try the JI Barrage build.Quote:
ok, maybe if I make this simpler you will understand:|
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
This is a skill I also never put in my skill bar since I never read the description right. I'm not sure I will now since the skill recharge doesn't seem to be reliable and the long recharge of the skill itself could be a bit hard to get used to if you never miss, but I certainly won't dismiss this skill like I used to.
Might be a good skill to take along with Oath Shot against something like Jade Bows who use that annoying ranger skill named Whirling Defense, lol  Actually if you take Distracting Shot which has 10 sec recharge and enemy pulls the WD trick it makes it a great opportunity to exploit this skill, and reset DS for the next available interrupt. Quote:
Obvious disdain for PvE?
 Trapper's focus is a waste, because it's effect can be replicated by non-elite skills that you would bring anyway. Oath Shot provides for a stronger well rounded build. Quote:
Originally Posted by xnightmythx
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How is this worthless?
Degen is worthless because it kills much too slowly, especially against higher level mobs. It's worthwhile to use against bosses because it counter's their natural health regen. Against normal mindless mobs its a wasted effort, because everything dies quick enough that degen does not have enough time to deal a significant amount of damage. Believe what you will, refrence all you want, but in practice poison does not kill quickly enough to be much help in PvE. Were you solo... It would be a different story. But any edge it gives your group over another group is imagined.
XvArchonvX
Wow a lot has been posted since I've been at work. Let's get started:
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
Quote: That's why you have Storm Chaser, which is a better option than wasting your Elite on Escape. You're not even reading what I post. I posted a specific example with the numbers right out there for you of why my Poison Arrow build is better and more effecient at Poisoning a GROUP of enemies than you Apply Poison build. Here's the quote: Since you seem to think Savage is so great at spreading the Poison "quickly", let's also look at numbers as far as time spent to Poison 5 seperate enemies with the two builds. You're build: Apply Poison (2 Seconds)+Savage Shot(x5) (25 Seconds)= 27 Seconds My build: Kindle Arrows (2 Seconds)+Poison Arrow(x5) (5 Seconds)= 7 Seconds If you want your arrows to move faster, use Read The Wind, don't spam Savage Shot. I don't know why you're even trying to argue about this anymore. Your build is not as effecient. I assumed that by posting it in my thread, you were looking to see if I had any suggestions for you or your build. I gave them, and you just wanted to explain why your build is better. I have argued the point, you won't be swayed. Ok, use your build then. It doesn't matter to me really, I was just trying to help you out. |
Poison shot = No Escape
No Escape = no evasion to be able to trap and no run skill
Only compensation for this = evasion stance + running stance = 2 skills
2 skill + 7 skills = 9
I welcome any counter examples you may be able to provide that can handle the tasks my build is meant.
Your argument against making enemies run from AoE damage reminds me of the huge outcry that came from the update that put that effect in place. while you can continue to see this effect as only negative, I would suggest that you observe the enemies behavior and learn to put this effect to your advantage. Understanding your enemies allows you to control them.
I believe your specific argument was that using the AoE effect would make enemies run and aggro enemies. If the trap was laid at the edge of your group where ideally the tank was holding aggro, this would be true. However the correct use of a trap to obtain the result I describe is to drop it at the feet of the casters. AoE damage causes enemies to generally run the full extent of about half an aggro circle to a whole one. Since your allies are spread out wider than this (unless you can get them to stand on eachother's heads) the collective aggro bubble of your group is greater than this, thus the enemies, when they reach the extent of their run, re-target and attack. While it is possible for them to attack the same enemy that you just made them run from, their damage potential was decreased due both in part by their running instead of fighting as well as their decreased health from the trap itself. If they are still kicking, then Throw Dirt comes into play. Since it has the long recharge time, it is best reserved as a backup for situations such as these.
The reasoning against barbed trap as stated before was partially because it crippled the enemy. I say this because the fleeing is limited chronologically so distance is not a factor. What this means is that when they run, they don't go as far. Because of this, barbed trap may be a good skill for those who wish to use a trap for the purpose I describe if they are not well adjusted to enemy behavior and want to make as sure as possible that the enemy does not flee farther than desired. However once enemy behavior is learned, it is possible to use Flame trap to give greater damage in combination with Hunter's Shot and increase the likeliness of getting the enemy to target an ally other than the caster you aim to protect.
As for the use of Savage Shot, I don't think you understand my implications. Apply Poison is used before the group is aggroed. Hunter's Shot is used to aggro since enemies are generally moving in patrols. Savage shot is spammed to the closest caster and generally catches them using their first spell. If it doesn't it still gets them poisoned as quickly as possible since it takes 1/2 of a second to shoot as opposed to the seconds that a normal shot takes. Regular or Hunter's Shots are then used from then on to poison additional foes for the most part. Savage Shot is a bonus that can be used as any new enemy approaches or as a skill is used by an enemy to be interupted.
Your major flaw in your logic is that all you did was multiply recharge times. While I'm sure that would make your old math teachers happy, this assumes that I aggro, then use Apply Poison. After this I would use Savage Shot on one enemy and afterwards stand around for 5 seconds not attacking anyone until the skill recharged before firing it again. If you seriously believe this is how I use this skill you are more than welcome to join a party whenever I use my build. I am spending a lot of time on my 2nd ranger so I'm free anytime you want to join me.
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Oath Shot+evasive stances= interrupted 25% of the time, no decreased recharge on skills (other than through Oath Shot, which isn't effective over time because Oath Shot itself has the same recharge as most Traps, 20 seconds, leaving you waiting for Oath Shot to recharge just the same as you would be waiting for your traps to recharge)
Trapper's Focus+Serpent's Quickness= no interruption, 33% decresed recharge on skills 66% of the time
I don't know why you're so in love with Oath Shot. It's total shit in a team build, other than for Spirit Spam. Sorry to be the one to break it to you. I think the part that you are missing which makes me agree with Lasher in that an Oath Shot build has a greater damage potential comes from the following factor that you yourself pointed out. Yes, the recharge of Oath Shot is just as long as most traps. However if you trap, then use Oath Shot for the instant recharge, you just doubled your damage for all traps. When 20 seconds pass, you can again drop Barbed and Flame trap before using Oath Shot again, allowing you to drop Flame and Barbed trap again then also use the renewed Viper's Nest and Dust Trap.
What this translates out to is that Barbed and Flame trap can be dropped twice in a about a 20 second time frame (discounting activation times since it remains constant in both builds) and thus effectively doubles drop rate. Dust trap and Viper's Nest are recharged every 20 seconds instead of 30 which is effectively equal to giving them a 33% increased recharge time.
Now let's take into effect that ideally, 25% of the time, using Whirling Defenses, you will be interupted. This roughly interperets out to 4 (we'll give Sha the benefit of the doubt by rounding up) out of the first 14 that occur using two Oath Shots (One after the first round of traps dropped and one after Oath Shot recharges) and you have 10 traps dropped in a 48 second time period (this number comes taking into account the time it takes for all traps to be dropped at 2 seconds to drop each and also assumes that you are not interupted until the last possible second, again giving Sha the benefit of the doubt.)
With the Serpent's Quickness build, the recharge times when Serpent's Quickness is active are 13 seconds for Dust and Barbed Trap (rounding down to give Sha the benefit of the doubt again), and 20 seconds for Viper's Nest and Dust Trap. To give Sha the benefit one last time (well partially for the benefit of my head since this math is killin me), lets assume that Serpent's Quickness never ends. After the trapper begins, the first trap will recharge 15 seconds from the moment he begins to drop the first trap (assuming the first trap is Barbed or Flame trap and taking into account the 2 second cast time). 2 seconds later the next pops up (assuming this is either Barbed or Flame trap again for efficiency). 9 seconds later Viper's Nest or Dust Trap is ready to drop. 2 seconds later Viper's Nest or Dust Trap is ready to drop again. 6 seconds later Barbed or Flame trap is ready again. 2 seconds later Barbed or Flame Trap is ready again. 12 seconds later Viper's Nest or Dust Trap is ready to drop again. 2 seconds later Viper's Nest or Dust Trap is ready to drop again. (I hope someone is still following this to check my math). At this time 50 seconds have past and 11 traps have dropped.
Now lets look at this. If Sha can magically gain infinite Serpent's Quickness and infinite Trapper's Focus (I again gave him the benefit of the doubt because he only has this active 14 out of 20 seconds and must take 2 seconds to activate this) then he can lay 11 traps in 50 seconds which equals about about .22 traps per second. The Oath Shot build which only needs to worry about the 2 second shot time of Oath Shot while using a Shot Bow can drop about 10 traps per 48 seconds which averages out to about .21 traps per second.
Now in theory it looks like the Serpent's Quickness build has a .01% advantage, but realistically I don't think the the traps will always be able to be dropped when Serpent's Quickness and Trapper's Focus is active.
Another factor to take into account is that if every trap is dropped as soon as possible with again non-stop Trapper's Focus and Serpent's Quickness is staggered. This means that the damage cannot spike an enemy as an Oath Shot build can since all traps recharge at a time to be dropped one after another.
My conclusion is this, I would love to see someone measure this experiment beyond the 50 seconds that I measured this. I am in no means a math major, but I welcome anyone to point out any flaws in this. As it would appear to me though, Sha's build is equal in overall damage at best, but lacks the ability to drop traps one after another that would take out an enemy before they could be healed or simply regen life in the time periods between traps. Even if there is any overall higher rating of damage output potential in Sha's Build, it is extremely minor at best. I would hardly describe the Oath Shot build to be as inferior as Sha has.
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If you are referring to the number of times one gets interupted then I would reccomend you to look at my statistics one more time. The 11 traps in 48 seconds took into account that 25% of the traps were interupted. I even gave you the benefit of the doubt that they were interupted at the last second so the time it took to cast them still was taken into consideration with the 48 seconds.|
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
Wow, that's what I'm talking about changing the subject. You specifically said you dealt more damage, I proved you wrong, you brought up defense.
Actually when you were first talking about someone changing the subject you were presenting that point in response to a post of mine which I explained by breaking my post into two parts that my post in fact replied a response to your initial argument while presenting a new one.
I'll give Sha the benefit of the doubt that he did change the subject, but seeing as though it was the first time to happen in this post and the subject initially "avoided" was tended to in the following post, I think we can move on. As for Lasher's response one aspect of defense which while not directly linking that aspect to the subject at hand of damage potential, is post that came after yours clarified that defensive duration is also part of the equation of damage output. I beleive that defense is related to damage potential since a dead ranger can't cause damage. If we look back to my previous study of both builds ability to analyze which build could drop more traps per second, defense was left out of consideration. I think we can all agree that the Oath Shot has a higher defense since it has a defensive stance while Sha's has none. I believe he mentioned that he could also bring Healing Spring to heal, however the same could be said of the Oath Shot build. This would again give the Oath Shot build more defense. Even if Healing Spring was interupted, casting it before Oath Shot would give it the chance to be cast again. I have one last point to attend to. This one regards Lasher's statement regarding Sha's use of only 12 attributes in Wilderness Survival. For this I'll give us one more sample scenario to test out the effectiveness of attribute spreading. To do this I will present three sample cases for anylization. For this we'll assume that for all the of these three cases our constant will be skills used, runes used on armor as well as attributes spent in Expertise. For argument's sake we'll use the skills Viper's Nest, Barbed Trap, Flame Trap and Dust Trap. The variables in this scenario will be the attributes spent in Wilderness Survival and Beast Mastery. The damage potential will be measured in one round of trap usage. Length of bleeding will be negated since the minimum length of bleeding would exceed 20 seconds in which case traps would ideally be used again. Damage caused by burning will also be negated since a 3 seconds of burning is constant at all attributes presented. First Case: Wilderness Survival: 10 + 1 + 1 = 12 Beast Mastery: 8 + 1 = 9 Damage potential of each skill for First Case: Viper's Nest: 32 damage 14 seconds of poison x 8 damage per second = 112 damage Barbed Trap 56 damage Dust Trap 22 damage x 5 seconds = 110 damage Flame Trap 27 damage Net damage potential from Case One = 337 damage Damage potential of each skill for Case Two: Wilderness Survival: 11 + 1 + 1 = 13 Beast Mastery: 6 + 1 = 7 Viper's Nest: 26 damage 12 seconds of poison x 8 damage per second = 96 damage Barbed Trap 59 damage Dust Trap 23 damage x 5 seconds = 115 damage Flame Trap 28 damage Net damage potential from Case Two = 324 damage Damage potential of each skill for Case Three: Wilderness Survival: 12 + 1 + 1 = 14 Beast Mastery: 3 + 1 = 4 Viper's Nest: 17 damage 9 seconds of poison x 8 damage per second = 72 damage Barbed Trap 62 damage Dust Trap 24 damage x 5 seconds = 120 damage Flame Trap 29 damage Net damage potential from Case Three= 300 damage From these three tests the maximum damage potential is from Case One. But, since the assumption was, if I interperet corectly, that trappers should have 16 att in Wilderness Survival, I'll present one more case. for this attribute spread to be possible, there must be a base attribute spending of 11 in Expertise. I would assume that a major Expertise rune would be used for this, especially since they only come at the price of 35 health since the update on them. To show what the real extra cost is at using 13 att in expertise is as opposed to 15, I'll cite GuildWiki here: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Expertise According to the charts, since there are two 10 energy skills, one 15 energy skill and one 25 energy skill, the net extra cost of using one round of traps would be 5 energy. Bonus Case: Wilderness Survival: 10 + 1 + 3 = 16 Beast Mastery: 6 + 1 = 7 Damage potential of each skill for Bonus Case: Viper's Nest: 26 damage 12 seconds of poison x 8 damage per second = 96 damage Barbed Trap 68 damage Dust Trap 26 damage x 5 seconds = 130 damage Flame Trap 31 damage Net damage potential from Case One = 351 damage 351 - 337 = 14 extra damage per trap set. My conclusion from this is as follows. 14 damage is a small amount of difference. However, that 14 damage is per enemy. This means that 5 enemies results in 70 extra damage. Even with this said, the damage difference does not seem any more negligable than the 35 health difference. The difference in Expertise doesn't seem to make much of a difference since I and just about everyone I knew always trapped at about 13 Expertise. If I had to pick one, I'd go with Sha's attribute spread, but I really don't think it makes a terrible difference either way since effectiveness of skills decreases in increase as the linked attribute itself increases. Bottom line, it's not the attribute spread that makes makes Oath Shot builds more damaging, it's the ability to double trap every 20 seconds with every trap except for Dust Trap which is doubled every 40 seconds. ok, I'm friggin tired from all this math, bit I welcome any mature criticisms to all that I have posted. If anyone knows a better way to measure the things I have here, I welcome them. As I said before I'm not a math major.
Sha Noran
Degen from something such as Poison, when spread properly, is DoTs that cannot be ignored. Well, I guess you can ignore it, but that would be sort of silly of you...
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
Quote: If I had to pick one, I'd go with Sha's attribute spread, but I really don't think it makes a terrible difference either way since effectiveness of skills decreases in increase as the linked attribute itself increases.
Good call.
By the way, in case you really didn't notice, I have 15 in Expertise instead of the standard breakpoint 13 because Trapper's Focus is an Expertise related attribute skill. Your numbers and yourself show that assuming all traps are dropped, near to equal damage is put out. However, you still fail to aknowledge the sheer number of times you'll be interrupted using an Oath Shot trapper build compared to a Trapper's Focus build, which reduces your overall damage considerably. Da Nile ain't just a river in Egypt. :-) Good work on the math by the way. More trouble than I was going to go to.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Degen is worthless because it kills much too slowly, especially against higher level mobs. It's worthwhile to use against bosses because it counter's their natural health regen. Against normal mindless mobs its a wasted effort, because everything dies quick enough that degen does not have enough time to deal a significant amount of damage. Believe what you will, refrence all you want, but in practice poison does not kill quickly enough to be much help in PvE. Were you solo... It would be a different story. But any edge it gives your group over another group is imagined.
Degen isn't for attacking a single target, it's for placing on multiple targets because it takes only 1 application. That's the whole POINT of dot. When degenning non-targetted mobs, you can often knock off 10-20% of their health before they are attacked by the group.
SnipiousMax
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Originally Posted by Avarre
Degen isn't for attacking a single target, it's for placing on multiple targets because it takes only 1 application. That's the whole POINT of dot. When degenning non-targetted mobs, you can often knock off 10-20% of their health before they are attacked by the group.
Right, but that 10-20% cannot compare to what SS necros, Warriors or Nukers can do. What I'm saying is that it really doesn't make a difference in the long run.
And you've never liked degen.
XvArchonvX
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Originally Posted by Sha Noran
Your numbers and yourself show that assuming all traps are dropped, near to equal damage is put out. However, you still fail to aknowledge the sheer number of times you'll be interrupted using an Oath Shot trapper build compared to a Trapper's Focus build, which reduces your overall damage considerably. Da Nile ain't just a river in Egypt. :-)
My numbers show both builds causing equal damage in conditions that are realistically not possible for the Serpent's Quickness build.
As for Oath Shot being interupted, the likeliness is next to none since it's an attack skill that is cast just as quickly as any attack you deal. What I think you attempted but failed at conveying clearly was that if you miss with Oath Shot your skills must be recharged. This however depends on who is using Oath Shot. If you are a fool and shoot at distant targets that are running around, you will likely miss. The same could be said if you are shooting at enemies that run evasive or blocking stances. As I have always said, know your enemies. If you know who you are going up against, you have no reason to miss. Even if you do, it only causes skills to recharge for 10 seconds. Since traps recharge at 20 or more seconds, the effect is equal to neglecting to shoot Oath Shot for one turn. I fail to see any flaw unless the person shooting Oath Shot is not paying attention to what they are shooting at. This may be backtracking slightly in debate and going off topic a bit, but I was just curious as to how you would define "changing the subject".
XvArchonvX
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Right, but that 10-20% cannot compare to what SS necros, Warriors or Nukers can do. What I'm saying is that it really doesn't make a difference in the long run.
And you've never liked degen. I agree with both you and Avarre. Degen will not do the same damage that a SS necro, warrior, etc will do, but there's no ranger skills that really will. The advantage of degen is that you can concentrate on other things while degen does the damage for you.
Sha Noran
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Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
As for Oath Shot being interupted
Grrrrr.... your TRAPS are getting interrupted, not Oath Shot.
XvArchonvX
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Originally Posted by Sha Noran
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Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
Now let's take into effect that ideally, 25% of the time, using Whirling Defenses, you will be interupted. This roughly interperets out to 4 (we'll give Sha the benefit of the doubt by rounding up) out of the first 14 that occur using two Oath Shots (One after the first round of traps dropped and one after Oath Shot recharges) and you have 10 traps dropped in a 48 second time period (this number comes taking into account the time it takes for all traps to be dropped at 2 seconds to drop each and also assumes that you are not interupted until the last possible second, again giving Sha the benefit of the doubt.)
Unless you are failing to express yourself correctly again, I would question whether you read my post all the way through. I clearly took the possibility of being interupted while not taking downtime in Trappers Focus and Serpents Quickness. The benefit of the doubt weighed in your favor yet damage came out roughly equal.
xnightmythx
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Degen is worthless because it kills much too slowly, especially against higher level mobs. It's worthwhile to use against bosses because it counter's their natural health regen. Against normal mindless mobs its a wasted effort, because everything dies quick enough that degen does not have enough time to deal a significant amount of damage. Believe what you will, reference all you want, but in practice poison does not kill quickly enough to be much help in PvE. Were you solo... It would be a different story. But any edge it gives your group over another group is imagined. Yeah bro I imagined all of Tyria and Cantha. Right. Its obvious that you don't have an understanding of degen in Pve. Degen actually makes for faster killing. Poison is meant to burden the enemy and his monks. The Monks have to focus on healing the afflicted foe therefore not being able to effectively heal the others. We exploit that by taking advantage of the overburdened monks and the result is a mob that dies much quicker.
Sha Noran
The problem, really, is that 25% of the time is NOT the same as 25% of your traps. Depending on the agro, it's going to be really alot more than that... and then if you have enemies with attacks that cannot be blocked/evaded (Seeking Arrows, Seeking Blade, Sun and Moon Slash, etc., etc.), you're really screwed.
Like I said, run it if you want, but my build puts out a great deal more reliable damage than an Oath Shot trapper's.
XvArchonvX
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Originally Posted by Sha Noran
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Another thing to consider is that the enemies all melee based enemies will be blinded by dust trap, so the actual likeliness of them interupting you goes from 25% to 0%. Besides if you are in a "trapping group environment" there will basically be a constant blind from the group dropping Dust Traps. This is evidence in favor of an Oath Shot build in a trapping environment contrary to this statement:
Quote: Originally Posted by Sha Noran Like I said, run it if you want, but my build puts out a great deal more reliable damage than an Oath Shot trapper's. If I'm not mistaken, you said this:
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No, I'm not confused. I will take each of your arguments one point at a time. I did leave a bit of a typo with the broken quote, but I cleaned that up as it was supposed to be erased. My replies are long, but if you get lost, feel free to let me know where to clarify. ~.^|
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
An Oath Shot Trapper most certainly does not out damage most of my builds. That's simply a stupid thing to say. On the most simple comparative scale, my Trapper's Focus build outdamages an Oath Shot Trappper anyday.
This statement would lead me to believe that no matter what, a Trappers Focus build does more damage, but now you say that it is better because it is more reliable? Before you stated that the damage didn't rely on anything and now it does? I'm sensing a change of direction in your argument.
I am interested however if there are any others that believe that your build will "always" deal more damage than an Oath Shot build because so far you are the only one that I have seen posting with that opinion. Also if I may, I did ask a question that you never responded to. Lasher at one point did not respond to a part of your post even though you never asked him directly about it. Does this mean that you are changing the subject? Perhaps if you defined what changing the subject was, I would understand your logic better.
Sha Noran
At this point, you're just confusing yourself. All of the points you bring up are just confusion, on your own part mostly.
Trapping in a group environment implies trapping as part of a team, not as part of a Trap group. If you're in a Trap group, you lay all of your Traps before engaging the enemy at all, making Trapper's Focus worthless (as I state in my guide). Yes, my build does more damage AND is more reliable. It deals more damage partly because it IS more reliable. As for changing the subject, I was referring to one party losing his argument, then bringing up a different point to distract from the fact that they were wrong (i.e. when he challenged that he dealt more damage, I proved him wrong, and he brought up defense). I said myself that the damage goes away once you get off Dust Trap, which negates your argument regarding damage reduction through Oath Shot trapper stances. You continue to post, but add nothing new to the discussion.
SnipiousMax
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Originally Posted by xnightmythx
Poison is meant to burden the enemy and his monks. The Monks have to focus on healing the afflicted foe therefore not being able to effectively heal the others.
I'd agree with that, except mob monks are mindless. They can't keep up with any normal amount of damage. And most people kill monks first anyway.
XvArchonvX
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Originally Posted by Sha Noran
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Quote: Originally Posted by Sha Noran Yes, my build does more damage AND is more reliable. It deals more damage partly because it IS more reliable. Look, I still have yet to see proof that your build can drop more traps than an Oath Shot build can. So far your only defense has been either that you get interupted which depends on number of enemies attacking you. That number is then decreased to the number of enemies that are blinded by you. If you are having trouble getting interupted due to extremely large aggro, there is always the option to drop Healing Spring and take Throw Dirt. Then simply approach the enemy ranger(s), blind them then drop Dust Trap last to extend the time blinded. Since any melee enemies that are attacking you have to follow you to attack, they will also be blinded and your traps will do damage to both the melee enemies and ranged enemies.
The only other point against Oath Shot that I have seen you present was that anti-evade attacks would interupt it often. The same could be said of a Trapper's Focus build against enemies that use interupts. If you use an Oath Shot build, it really doesn't matter whether your enemies can interupt or not because you evade attacks, not attempt to tank them.
As for your overall statement of reliability, I'm not sure how you can argue this when your build has less defense. Survivability still plays a role in how much damage you can deal.
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See and this is the point I'm not agreeing on. Were battles longer, maybe. But I don't like tab-spacing through the mob poisoning them, when one or two AoE's will easily outdamage anything I've done. I understand the reasoning and the concept, what I question is the need. I personally feel that since the Ranger doesn't shine as a damage dealer, that I'd better help the group by concentrating on other functions. Interrupting a very damaging AoE for instance is a big load off my monks. Dropping a quick cheap attack skill to help my warrior finish off a monk, means that the healing stops altogether. There are any number of functions I could take up and work with, that would help my team out more than trying to spread DPS. While it could be argued that I can do all that AND keep poisoning, it comes down how effective you are doing the thing that is MOST helpful.|
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
Trapper's Focus is better for trapping in a group environment.
How is this better for a group environment when you put more stress on the monk in your group? If you are refering to the same incredibly complex and sophisticated code that powers the Healer Henchmen... Then I feel perfectly justified saying that they are mindless! Quote:
I'm tired of this argument. If you're putting stress on your Monks with my build, either:
A) Your Monks are worse than the henchie Monks -or- B) You forgot to put on your armor You'll negate far more damage than you take when you're Dust Trap ISN'T interrupted. You really need to stop nit-picking dude; i.e.: Quote:
 AI healing is spastic at best. 8 dps, is not going to break a monk that is having to deal with 40 dps from a warrior. Quote:
If Dust Trap is interupted there is still the ability to drop it again faster than in a trappers focus group. Even if it is not, the amount of damage taken by someone using a defensive stance is still less. Lets take a 20 second scenario, since this is generally how long you will have to wait inbetween dropping dust traps in both builds. In the Trapper's Focus build, your enemies are blind for 7 seconds. This means that 7 out of 20 seconds or 35% of the time you are not taking damage by nearby enemies. During that 7 seconds however you are still taking ranged attack damage and the remaining 65% of the time you are taking all damage. In the Oath Shot build, for that whole 20 seconds you take damage only 25% of the time from all distances. If the Dust Trap is not interupted then you only take 25% damage from all distances 65% of the time. My only reasoning was to say that Oath Shot is a legitamate trapping build. I found a false statement by you when you said that a Trapper's Focus build is better "anyday" Quote: Originally Posted by Sha Noran When in the hell would you agro something and THEN Trap in a TRAP GROUP? Just shut up. When the enemies approach in a staggered fashion and are not killed all at once by the first round of traps. Admittedly trap groups almost never occur except in UW trapping groups. Quote:
While I agree with our "henchmen" being mindless, they are 180 degrees different than the AI monks that the enemy has. The code for our henchi monks has to deal with a human factor. Human factor has unpredictability. Hence our Monks seem Mindless most of the time. Even then, the code is much different than that of the enemy code. The enemy is calculating and precise. To call them mindless or stupid is ridiculous. They are far from that.
If the programmer chose to turn up the codes degree of difficulty, I guarantee you we would not stand a chance at being alive for more than a few minutes. Because the code has been set at a level that offers challenging game play while providing us with minimal frustration, Degen has been placed there for a purpose. Like I said before, its purpose is to burden the enemy and his monks. Degen is a continual degradation of their health, which allows you to exploit other targets at the same time that degen is doing its thing in the background. Thus making killing actually faster. You call this worthless? Come on bro, please. Quote: Quote:
You call stopping in the middle of an engagement to cast Retribution precise? My mindless comment was directed more at the fact that they will cast spells that have little to no impact on what's going on in the moment. Yes their response is faster than that of a human player. But with the few times they're brilliant, they've many many times they're not.
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Originally Posted by xnightmythx
You are suggesting that every team is an UBER killing machine and therefore any degen is a waste of time. When in fact PUGS suck and degen is a great balance for their lack of skill and or inexperience. Thats why it is not worthless.
That's a better arguement. And if you were in a very piecemeal team, one where damage was very bleak, then maybe it'd be more worthwhile... But then again, if damage is scarce, your going to have to focus everything the team's got to kill anything.
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Originally Posted by xnightmythx
You lost me. Maybe you missunderstood my sarcasm. I meant that most people dont know the basics of the game, let alone the strategy you were suggesting about killing the monk first.
I was being snappy.
But it's the work of a moment to convince a decent gamer to do something intellegent.... But then again, there are those groups.Personally, I think I'm more effective doing other things, but I hardly think bad of people that use poison. I always carry it when I know I'm fighting a particular nasty boss. And I use in PvP without question. Only thing I question is it's general use in everyday PvE. Worthless was a bit strong, 'less effective' is more descriptive of my opinion. xnightmythx
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Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
Worthless was a bit strong, 'less effective' is more descriptive of my opinion.
That's correct. Now we agree.
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