Wow a lot has been posted since I've been at work. Let's get started:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
In my final edit of your build, I suggested that you continue to bring Throw Dirt, as you have been, and to switch out Flame Trap to Barbed Trap. If a Caster has heavy agro on them, they should kite the damage to something that can tank it, i.e. a Warrior, or you. Barbed Trap throws some Cripple in the mix, allowing for your Casters to kite with ease. Flame Trap just causes the monsters to split up and run around, most likely just agroing other casters.
That's why you have Storm Chaser, which is a better option than wasting your Elite on Escape.
You're not even reading what I post. I posted a specific example with the numbers right out there for you of why my Poison Arrow build is better and more effecient at Poisoning a GROUP of enemies than you Apply Poison build.
Here's the quote:
Since you seem to think Savage is so great at spreading the Poison "quickly", let's also look at numbers as far as time spent to Poison 5 seperate enemies with the two builds.
You're build:
Apply Poison (2 Seconds)+Savage Shot(x5) (25 Seconds)= 27 Seconds
My build:
Kindle Arrows (2 Seconds)+Poison Arrow(x5) (5 Seconds)= 7 Seconds
If you want your arrows to move faster, use Read The Wind, don't spam Savage Shot.
I don't know why you're even trying to argue about this anymore. Your build is not as effecient. I assumed that by posting it in my thread, you were looking to see if I had any suggestions for you or your build. I gave them, and you just wanted to explain why your build is better. I have argued the point, you won't be swayed. Ok, use your build then. It doesn't matter to me really, I was just trying to help you out.
ok, maybe if I make this simpler you will understand:
Poison shot = No Escape
No Escape = no evasion to be able to trap and no run skill
Only compensation for this = evasion stance + running stance = 2 skills
2 skill + 7 skills = 9
I welcome any counter examples you may be able to provide that can handle the tasks my build is meant.
Your argument against making enemies run from AoE damage reminds me of the huge outcry that came from the update that put that effect in place. while you can continue to see this effect as only negative, I would suggest that you observe the enemies behavior and learn to put this effect to your advantage. Understanding your enemies allows you to control them.
I believe your specific argument was that using the AoE effect would make enemies run and aggro enemies. If the trap was laid at the edge of your group where ideally the tank was holding aggro, this would be true. However the correct use of a trap to obtain the result I describe is to drop it at the feet of the casters. AoE damage causes enemies to generally run the full extent of about half an aggro circle to a whole one. Since your allies are spread out wider than this (unless you can get them to stand on eachother's heads) the collective aggro bubble of your group is greater than this, thus the enemies, when they reach the extent of their run, re-target and attack. While it is possible for them to attack the same enemy that you just made them run from, their damage potential was decreased due both in part by their running instead of fighting as well as their decreased health from the trap itself. If they are still kicking, then Throw Dirt comes into play. Since it has the long recharge time, it is best reserved as a backup for situations such as these.
The reasoning against barbed trap as stated before was partially because it crippled the enemy. I say this because the fleeing is limited chronologically so distance is not a factor. What this means is that when they run, they don't go as far. Because of this, barbed trap may be a good skill for those who wish to use a trap for the purpose I describe if they are not well adjusted to enemy behavior and want to make as sure as possible that the enemy does not flee farther than desired. However once enemy behavior is learned, it is possible to use Flame trap to give greater damage in combination with Hunter's Shot and increase the likeliness of getting the enemy to target an ally other than the caster you aim to protect.
As for the use of Savage Shot, I don't think you understand my implications. Apply Poison is used before the group is aggroed. Hunter's Shot is used to aggro since enemies are generally moving in patrols. Savage shot is spammed to the closest caster and generally catches them using their first spell. If it doesn't it still gets them poisoned as quickly as possible since it takes 1/2 of a second to shoot as opposed to the seconds that a normal shot takes. Regular or Hunter's Shots are then used from then on to poison additional foes for the most part. Savage Shot is a bonus that can be used as any new enemy approaches or as a skill is used by an enemy to be interupted.
Your major flaw in your logic is that all you did was multiply recharge times. While I'm sure that would make your old math teachers happy, this assumes that I aggro, then use Apply Poison. After this I would use Savage Shot on one enemy and afterwards stand around for 5 seconds not attacking anyone until the skill recharged before firing it again. If you seriously believe this is how I use this skill you are more than welcome to join a party whenever I use my build. I am spending a lot of time on my 2nd ranger so I'm free anytime you want to join me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
An Oath Shot Trapper most certainly does not out damage most of my builds. That's simply a stupid thing to say. On the most simple comparative scale, my Trapper's Focus build outdamages an Oath Shot Trappper anyday.
Oath Shot+evasive stances= interrupted 25% of the time, no decreased recharge on skills (other than through Oath Shot, which isn't effective over time because Oath Shot itself has the same recharge as most Traps, 20 seconds, leaving you waiting for Oath Shot to recharge just the same as you would be waiting for your traps to recharge)
Trapper's Focus+Serpent's Quickness= no interruption, 33% decresed recharge on skills 66% of the time
I don't know why you're so in love with Oath Shot. It's total shit in a team build, other than for Spirit Spam. Sorry to be the one to break it to you.
I think the part that you are missing which makes me agree with Lasher in that an Oath Shot build has a greater damage potential comes from the following factor that you yourself pointed out. Yes, the recharge of Oath Shot is just as long as most traps. However if you trap, then use Oath Shot for the instant recharge, you just doubled your damage for all traps. When 20 seconds pass, you can again drop Barbed and Flame trap before using Oath Shot again, allowing you to drop Flame and Barbed trap again then also use the renewed Viper's Nest and Dust Trap.
What this translates out to is that Barbed and Flame trap can be dropped twice in a about a 20 second time frame (discounting activation times since it remains constant in both builds) and thus effectively doubles drop rate. Dust trap and Viper's Nest are recharged every 20 seconds instead of 30 which is effectively equal to giving them a 33% increased recharge time.
Now let's take into effect that ideally, 25% of the time, using Whirling Defenses, you will be interupted. This roughly interperets out to 4 (we'll give Sha the benefit of the doubt by rounding up) out of the first 14 that occur using two Oath Shots (One after the first round of traps dropped and one after Oath Shot recharges) and you have 10 traps dropped in a 48 second time period (this number comes taking into account the time it takes for all traps to be dropped at 2 seconds to drop each and also assumes that you are not interupted until the last possible second, again giving Sha the benefit of the doubt.)
With the Serpent's Quickness build, the recharge times when Serpent's Quickness is active are 13 seconds for Dust and Barbed Trap (rounding down to give Sha the benefit of the doubt again), and 20 seconds for Viper's Nest and Dust Trap. To give Sha the benefit one last time (well partially for the benefit of my head since this math is killin me), lets assume that Serpent's Quickness never ends. After the trapper begins, the first trap will recharge 15 seconds from the moment he begins to drop the first trap (assuming the first trap is Barbed or Flame trap and taking into account the 2 second cast time). 2 seconds later the next pops up (assuming this is either Barbed or Flame trap again for efficiency). 9 seconds later Viper's Nest or Dust Trap is ready to drop. 2 seconds later Viper's Nest or Dust Trap is ready to drop again. 6 seconds later Barbed or Flame trap is ready again. 2 seconds later Barbed or Flame Trap is ready again. 12 seconds later Viper's Nest or Dust Trap is ready to drop again. 2 seconds later Viper's Nest or Dust Trap is ready to drop again. (I hope someone is still following this to check my math). At this time 50 seconds have past and 11 traps have dropped.
Now lets look at this. If Sha can magically gain infinite Serpent's Quickness and infinite Trapper's Focus (I again gave him the benefit of the doubt because he only has this active 14 out of 20 seconds and must take 2 seconds to activate this) then he can lay 11 traps in 50 seconds which equals about about .22 traps per second. The Oath Shot build which only needs to worry about the 2 second shot time of Oath Shot while using a Shot Bow can drop about 10 traps per 48 seconds which averages out to about .21 traps per second.
Now in theory it looks like the Serpent's Quickness build has a .01% advantage, but realistically I don't think the the traps will always be able to be dropped when Serpent's Quickness and Trapper's Focus is active.
Another factor to take into account is that if every trap is dropped as soon as possible with again non-stop Trapper's Focus and Serpent's Quickness is staggered. This means that the damage cannot spike an enemy as an Oath Shot build can since all traps recharge at a time to be dropped one after another.
My conclusion is this, I would love to see someone measure this experiment beyond the 50 seconds that I measured this. I am in no means a math major, but I welcome anyone to point out any flaws in this. As it would appear to me though, Sha's build is equal in overall damage at best, but lacks the ability to drop traps one after another that would take out an enemy before they could be healed or simply regen life in the time periods between traps. Even if there is any overall higher rating of damage output potential in Sha's Build, it is extremely minor at best. I would hardly describe the Oath Shot build to be as inferior as Sha has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
Wow, that's what I'm talking about changing the subject. You specifically said you dealt more damage, I proved you wrong, you brought up defense.
Actually when you were first talking about someone changing the subject you were presenting that point in response to a post of mine which I explained by breaking my post into two parts that my post in fact replied a response to your initial argument while presenting a new one.
I'll give Sha the benefit of the doubt that he did change the subject, but seeing as though it was the first time to happen in this post and the subject initially "avoided" was tended to in the following post, I think we can move on.
As for Lasher's response one aspect of defense which while not directly linking that aspect to the subject at hand of damage potential, is post that came after yours clarified that defensive duration is also part of the equation of damage output.
I beleive that defense is related to damage potential since a dead ranger can't cause damage. If we look back to my previous study of both builds ability to analyze which build could drop more traps per second, defense was left out of consideration. I think we can all agree that the Oath Shot has a higher defense since it has a defensive stance while Sha's has none. I believe he mentioned that he could also bring Healing Spring to heal, however the same could be said of the Oath Shot build. This would again give the Oath Shot build more defense. Even if Healing Spring was interupted, casting it before Oath Shot would give it the chance to be cast again.
I have one last point to attend to. This one regards Lasher's statement regarding Sha's use of only 12 attributes in Wilderness Survival. For this I'll give us one more sample scenario to test out the effectiveness of attribute spreading. To do this I will present three sample cases for anylization.
For this we'll assume that for all the of these three cases our constant will be skills used, runes used on armor as well as attributes spent in Expertise. For argument's sake we'll use the skills Viper's Nest, Barbed Trap, Flame Trap and Dust Trap.
The variables in this scenario will be the attributes spent in Wilderness Survival and Beast Mastery.
The damage potential will be measured in one round of trap usage. Length of bleeding will be negated since the minimum length of bleeding would exceed 20 seconds in which case traps would ideally be used again. Damage caused by burning will also be negated since a 3 seconds of burning is constant at all attributes presented.
First Case:
Wilderness Survival: 10 + 1 + 1 = 12
Beast Mastery: 8 + 1 = 9
Damage potential of each skill for First Case:
Viper's Nest:
32 damage
14 seconds of poison x 8 damage per second = 112 damage
Barbed Trap
56 damage
Dust Trap
22 damage x 5 seconds = 110 damage
Flame Trap
27 damage
Net damage potential from Case One = 337 damage
Damage potential of each skill for Case Two:
Wilderness Survival: 11 + 1 + 1 = 13
Beast Mastery: 6 + 1 = 7
Viper's Nest:
26 damage
12 seconds of poison x 8 damage per second = 96 damage
Barbed Trap
59 damage
Dust Trap
23 damage x 5 seconds = 115 damage
Flame Trap
28 damage
Net damage potential from Case Two = 324 damage
Damage potential of each skill for Case Three:
Wilderness Survival: 12 + 1 + 1 = 14
Beast Mastery: 3 + 1 = 4
Viper's Nest:
17 damage
9 seconds of poison x 8 damage per second = 72 damage
Barbed Trap
62 damage
Dust Trap
24 damage x 5 seconds = 120 damage
Flame Trap
29 damage
Net damage potential from Case Three= 300 damage
From these three tests the maximum damage potential is from Case One. But, since the assumption was, if I interperet corectly, that trappers should have 16 att in Wilderness Survival, I'll present one more case. for this attribute spread to be possible, there must be a base attribute spending of 11 in Expertise. I would assume that a major Expertise rune would be used for this, especially since they only come at the price of 35 health since the update on them.
To show what the real extra cost is at using 13 att in expertise is as opposed to 15, I'll cite GuildWiki here: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Expertise
According to the charts, since there are two 10 energy skills, one 15 energy skill and one 25 energy skill, the net extra cost of using one round of traps would be 5 energy.
Bonus Case:
Wilderness Survival: 10 + 1 + 3 = 16
Beast Mastery: 6 + 1 = 7
Damage potential of each skill for Bonus Case:
Viper's Nest:
26 damage
12 seconds of poison x 8 damage per second = 96 damage
Barbed Trap
68 damage
Dust Trap
26 damage x 5 seconds = 130 damage
Flame Trap
31 damage
Net damage potential from Case One = 351 damage
351 - 337 = 14 extra damage per trap set.
My conclusion from this is as follows. 14 damage is a small amount of difference. However, that 14 damage is per enemy. This means that 5 enemies results in 70 extra damage. Even with this said, the damage difference does not seem any more negligable than the 35 health difference. The difference in Expertise doesn't seem to make much of a difference since I and just about everyone I knew always trapped at about 13 Expertise.
If I had to pick one, I'd go with Sha's attribute spread, but I really don't think it makes a terrible difference either way since effectiveness of skills decreases in increase as the linked attribute itself increases.
Bottom line, it's not the attribute spread that makes makes Oath Shot builds more damaging, it's the ability to double trap every 20 seconds with every trap except for Dust Trap which is doubled every 40 seconds.
ok, I'm friggin tired from all this math, bit I welcome any mature criticisms to all that I have posted. If anyone knows a better way to measure the things I have here, I welcome them. As I said before I'm not a math major. |
To be honest it usually doesn't matter to me, but considering my game was ON last night I thought the least I would deserve was an ecto, or a gold drop. I got nothing. Not even with my keys. Actually this trip cost me more than anything cause I had to give up like 6 CC lol. But the experience was worth it. Next time I go, I will try the JI Barrage build.
