[merged] Touch Rangers
Tobias Funke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghull Ka
Crippleshot/apply poison ranger who kites = dead toucher.
As this is my favorite PvP build I have to inject a point here. Yes, this owns a touch ranger. Usually you can own 2 at a time. But in AB's there comes a time when the other teams 6 touch rangers realize that you and the mesmer are the only ones that know how to stop them. So in the end we get mobbed by said touchers and go down first. While waiting to rez the rest of our team gets wiped out because they have no idea how to beat a toucher. By the time we get back into the action our team has lost 2 control points and all the whammos rage quit because their team mates "let them die". I'm left saying "balls" to my self. Maybe touchers need the nerf bat and the point about them not being atttacks is spot on, but more importantly people need to stop being lame and learn do their own thing. It's really a much more fun game when you do that.
KamikazeChicken
The skills are not overpowered, expertise is not overpowered, and the combination of the two are not overpowered. The damage output is annoying at best, unless you're completely incapable of kiting or getting healed.
ANYONE can kite touch rangers, and this greatly deminishes their damage output. There's also multiple ways to counter them through specific professions, and outright healing would be the easiest.
There's really no reason to nerf something when it doesn't need it. There's also no reason to nerf something because it's making gameplay stale because that doesn't mean it'll change anything. Iway hasn't budged an inch after 2 (?) subtle nerfs to the build? I'd think dual smite would have started taking over TA/ABs. :|
ANYONE can kite touch rangers, and this greatly deminishes their damage output. There's also multiple ways to counter them through specific professions, and outright healing would be the easiest.
There's really no reason to nerf something when it doesn't need it. There's also no reason to nerf something because it's making gameplay stale because that doesn't mean it'll change anything. Iway hasn't budged an inch after 2 (?) subtle nerfs to the build? I'd think dual smite would have started taking over TA/ABs. :|
WLlama
A lot of the counters mentioned use skills that are not exactly high level (diversion, degen, cripple (sure, shot is elite but traps work with some care/tact/stances)) so I wouldn't say that it gives an unfair advantage to any set of "noobs" over another. (In fact, it slightly irks me that people new to PvP were just called "noobs" on this forum but that is another matter entirely...we were all there once, don't forget that.)
eternal pho
I played the RT a while back but only for a couple hours and it simply bored me, but personally I hate to play that build, for it made me feel like a complete noob using it.
markus_thom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stileto Switchblade
Sorry if there is already a thread for this - but you guys have your search disabled all of the time.
So.....
How many of you 12v12 players are sick and tired of these touch rangers?? Personally I don't even do 12v12 anymore so if GW was looking for this to be competitive - they screwed up BIG TIME.
At least with other builds you have a chance to have a good battle. With this build - the only build I've seen that can even come close is a mesmer.
So....what is Anet looking for - all Touch Rangers & Mesmers??? NO THX
So I say....NERF IT!!
You did it to the AoE's for elementalists and to the Minion Master - how about doing something about this one!!
Lets put some competition back into the game!!
I"M SICK OF NERFING, Instead of nerfing bring in more counter skills.
OR stop playing cookie cutter builds. All you warrior complain the most about touchers because you cant do the whole tanking approach you have been doing for ages start kiting instead of standing there, It makes sense that perticulor builds do well or better against others.
Even a ranger spiker can take out a ranger/necro. Anyhting basically with good damage output thats ranged can take one out before it reaches you.
If your a wammo Try using a hammer, or changing you build.
Anet should think about making touch rangers blindable, or putting in more skills or buffing skills like scourge healing for example to damage self heal.
Make it evadeable, problem solved.
anything but nerfing, start thinking about skills in the future that will dispose of iway and secture in the future.
So.....
How many of you 12v12 players are sick and tired of these touch rangers?? Personally I don't even do 12v12 anymore so if GW was looking for this to be competitive - they screwed up BIG TIME.
At least with other builds you have a chance to have a good battle. With this build - the only build I've seen that can even come close is a mesmer.
So....what is Anet looking for - all Touch Rangers & Mesmers??? NO THX
So I say....NERF IT!!
You did it to the AoE's for elementalists and to the Minion Master - how about doing something about this one!!
Lets put some competition back into the game!!
I"M SICK OF NERFING, Instead of nerfing bring in more counter skills.
OR stop playing cookie cutter builds. All you warrior complain the most about touchers because you cant do the whole tanking approach you have been doing for ages start kiting instead of standing there, It makes sense that perticulor builds do well or better against others.
Even a ranger spiker can take out a ranger/necro. Anyhting basically with good damage output thats ranged can take one out before it reaches you.
If your a wammo Try using a hammer, or changing you build.
Anet should think about making touch rangers blindable, or putting in more skills or buffing skills like scourge healing for example to damage self heal.
Make it evadeable, problem solved.
anything but nerfing, start thinking about skills in the future that will dispose of iway and secture in the future.
Hidden in the Mist
Touch skills aren't 'blindable'.
Silent Kitty
When you see a touchy and you don't know how to kite, just run 
Touchers hate it when you run.
Touchers hate it when you run.
Hidden in the Mist
That's why I bring Vampiric Gaze 
Whenever I go with as a Toucher, I like to use:
Vampiric Touch
Touch of Agony
Vampiric Bite
Offering of Blood
Dodge
Zojun's Haste
Whirling Defense
Vampiric Gaze (if there isn't a lot Minion Masters that day)/Verata's Aura (if there's a lot of Minion Masters that day)
Whenever I go with as a Toucher, I like to use:
Vampiric Touch
Touch of Agony
Vampiric Bite
Offering of Blood
Dodge
Zojun's Haste
Whirling Defense
Vampiric Gaze (if there isn't a lot Minion Masters that day)/Verata's Aura (if there's a lot of Minion Masters that day)
vaxmor
Its much too hard to learn2play, kiting, degens and snares cant be easily fitted into most sword W/MO mending/healing breeze builds, therefore we MUST act to IMMEDIATELY nerf (touch) rangers.
Why bother to snare, kite or degen a (touch) ranger when its so much more effective to whine/complain on forums for more ranger nerfing?
Why bother to snare, kite or degen a (touch) ranger when its so much more effective to whine/complain on forums for more ranger nerfing?
frojack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thom
People don't get it. Simply having a counter (or many counters) is not a sufficient argument for something to avoid a nerf. The build has made arena play rather stale, therefore a nerf is in order. You really shouldn't give noobs playing touch rangers a huge advantage over noobs playing most every other build. The next rebalance should intentionally move peoples interest away from touch rangers.
Um, wow. That is probably the best argument I have heard to date. Well done...
Takkun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobias Funke
As this is my favorite PvP build I have to inject a point here. Yes, this owns a touch ranger. Usually you can own 2 at a time. But in AB's there comes a time when the other teams 6 touch rangers realize that you and the mesmer are the only ones that know how to stop them. So in the end we get mobbed by said touchers and go down first. While waiting to rez the rest of our team gets wiped out because they have no idea how to beat a toucher. By the time we get back into the action our team has lost 2 control points and all the whammos rage quit because their team mates "let them die". I'm left saying "balls" to my self. Maybe touchers need the nerf bat and the point about them not being atttacks is spot on, but more importantly people need to stop being lame and learn do their own thing. It's really a much more fun game when you do that.
So when do cripshot rangers not known every close combat proffession in the game?
Silent Kitty
If everything else fails, because you forgot your snaring/kiting skills, split your team. Let one half of your team take the abuse and fight for the flag, and an other part gank their Guild Lord, so they are forced to retreat in defence.
TheMadKingGeorge
ill nerf it if anet brings back griffon farming and makes the aoe nerf go away or also makes the henches run out of aoe dmg
Sectus
YES! I really think touch rangers should be changed. For 2 reasons, they are overpowered and they're not fun.
Overpowered in the way that most counters have absolutely no effect against touch rangers. If you consider any build, you usually have a ton of counters. Any caster build... dazed, backfire, interrupting, energy drain, spiking, etc... Any weapon build... blind, weakness, kiting, etc... And what counters do you need to have against touch rangers? Snaring. That's the only effective way of shutting down a touch ranger. It's really unfair they only have one useful counter, and if you don't have that you're doomed.
If I remember correctly, Izzy himself said that skills are supposed be in broad categories so that you won't be forced to bring a specific counter against just one type of build. A build such as touch rangers go against this. Sure it's no big deal in HA or GvG where there's most probably multiple people with snares, but in other pvp arenas with smaller teams, then it doesn't become as easy. In a small team it gets hard enough to make sure you have counters against general type of builds, it becomes a lot harder if you're forced to include very specific counters.
And the most important argument, touch rangers are NOT fun. The entire concept of the build (constantly spamming 2 skills) doesn't sound like something which is fun to play. And as long as you don't bring a snare skill, it feels so pointless to fight against touch rangers. My normal counters has absolutely no effect. The only useful thing I can do is completely ignore them, hope that I get healed or do some damage to someone else before I die.
Overpowered in the way that most counters have absolutely no effect against touch rangers. If you consider any build, you usually have a ton of counters. Any caster build... dazed, backfire, interrupting, energy drain, spiking, etc... Any weapon build... blind, weakness, kiting, etc... And what counters do you need to have against touch rangers? Snaring. That's the only effective way of shutting down a touch ranger. It's really unfair they only have one useful counter, and if you don't have that you're doomed.
If I remember correctly, Izzy himself said that skills are supposed be in broad categories so that you won't be forced to bring a specific counter against just one type of build. A build such as touch rangers go against this. Sure it's no big deal in HA or GvG where there's most probably multiple people with snares, but in other pvp arenas with smaller teams, then it doesn't become as easy. In a small team it gets hard enough to make sure you have counters against general type of builds, it becomes a lot harder if you're forced to include very specific counters.
And the most important argument, touch rangers are NOT fun. The entire concept of the build (constantly spamming 2 skills) doesn't sound like something which is fun to play. And as long as you don't bring a snare skill, it feels so pointless to fight against touch rangers. My normal counters has absolutely no effect. The only useful thing I can do is completely ignore them, hope that I get healed or do some damage to someone else before I die.
kryshnysh
Quote:
Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken
There's also no reason to nerf something because it's making gameplay stale because that doesn't mean it'll change anything. Iway hasn't budged an inch after 2 (?) subtle nerfs to the build? I'd think dual smite would have started taking over TA/ABs. :|
Previous examples of things not being done doesn't imply that it shouldn't be done.
IWAY has definitely budged a good bit. I no longer run into nearly the same amount of IWAY as before. In addition, I now see a larger precentage of IWAY groups running a mod of some sort or another. Still present doesn't mean it hasn't been reduced in numbers. Any good "nerf" should keep the strategy viable but reduce its power.
As has been posted here, the problem is that no matter how bad the toucher is, most players who aren't in the upper tier of guild wars players will lose to it far more often than not. Frustration tends to occur before learning.
Touch Ranger Thread in the PvP Section
IWAY has definitely budged a good bit. I no longer run into nearly the same amount of IWAY as before. In addition, I now see a larger precentage of IWAY groups running a mod of some sort or another. Still present doesn't mean it hasn't been reduced in numbers. Any good "nerf" should keep the strategy viable but reduce its power.
As has been posted here, the problem is that no matter how bad the toucher is, most players who aren't in the upper tier of guild wars players will lose to it far more often than not. Frustration tends to occur before learning.
Touch Ranger Thread in the PvP Section
Zakarr
The reason why some builds are cookie cutters, is that most of random players don't understand how they work and therefore don't realize how to beat them. Minority can do nothing in that situation. Sometimes there is enough experienced players to make them balanced, sometimes there isn't.
Touch ranger is just one build among others. Maybe this has something to do with "common RPG style" where that kind of builds have never existed. Guild Wars breaks so many RPG clichés that most get confused. Some quit because of that, some start to complain and some learn to adapt.
If touch rangers are popular, bring something which they are weak against. You can't always play your beloved build if you want to survive. Good builds are linked to enemy builds. If their builds change, your builds must change too. You can't alone counter everything. Ask help from your team if you are trouble. This is team game after all.
Touch ranger is just one build among others. Maybe this has something to do with "common RPG style" where that kind of builds have never existed. Guild Wars breaks so many RPG clichés that most get confused. Some quit because of that, some start to complain and some learn to adapt.
If touch rangers are popular, bring something which they are weak against. You can't always play your beloved build if you want to survive. Good builds are linked to enemy builds. If their builds change, your builds must change too. You can't alone counter everything. Ask help from your team if you are trouble. This is team game after all.
Da Cebuano
The main problem w/ this build that most people who say "Oh just get some skills" is that you'll have to build totally around it which is not possbile w/ the classes in GW that'll on AB(yes, they are mainly here). How will a AB built up warrior counter this? no degen(cept for bleed which is plaguetouched), ele? 100ar vs elements anyone? or any other class w/ no way to counter it.
I myself beat touch ranger and lost some. Its very hard to defeat them as a warrior(stances they carry) or as r/a(main ab char nowadays). GW really isn't about skill, since all it is, is point and click + press buttons, there is no actual skill involved like games such as counter strike where you'll have to aim. GW is more of a thinking man competition, you'll have to outwit your opponent w/ the builds you have, however, it is certain that some builds simply can't counter others,therefore will lose. Some of you guys will have to get out of your rock and admit that, competitive classes that work vs everything else then fail to touch rangers just cause... seems endearing, unbalancing aspect of the build.
Too bad my mesmer is still lv2
still it kinda sucks I'll have to retort to using a complete counter build just to stay competitive vs these guys. That shouldn't be the case, since that counter build will not work against all else.
I myself beat touch ranger and lost some. Its very hard to defeat them as a warrior(stances they carry) or as r/a(main ab char nowadays). GW really isn't about skill, since all it is, is point and click + press buttons, there is no actual skill involved like games such as counter strike where you'll have to aim. GW is more of a thinking man competition, you'll have to outwit your opponent w/ the builds you have, however, it is certain that some builds simply can't counter others,therefore will lose. Some of you guys will have to get out of your rock and admit that, competitive classes that work vs everything else then fail to touch rangers just cause... seems endearing, unbalancing aspect of the build.
Too bad my mesmer is still lv2
still it kinda sucks I'll have to retort to using a complete counter build just to stay competitive vs these guys. That shouldn't be the case, since that counter build will not work against all else.
zakaria
Touch ranger should be nerfed..i know blackout, diversion, SS, wild blow, warrior's cunning, cripple shot covered with poison...etc. all these are counters to touch rangers but when you force me to and all my team to grab counters coz we might find that half of the opposite team are touch rangers..this is dumb.
We are not forced to bind towards certain build that some ppl see it cool to run it.All of you were talking about single touch ranger...let's discuss about countering half dozen of them in AB then come back to talk with me if it's easy and fun to counter them or not.
We are not forced to bind towards certain build that some ppl see it cool to run it.All of you were talking about single touch ranger...let's discuss about countering half dozen of them in AB then come back to talk with me if it's easy and fun to counter them or not.
Doomlord_Slayermann
There are plenty of counters to Touch Rangers. Use them.
Silent Kitty
As observer I like to watch spike builds, and always hope they lose.
Paperfly
Touching is mildly overpowered on the Luxon* side of Fort Aspenwood (does anyone else get the sense I spend too much time there? ), simply because of the DPS on static NPC targets plus the fact that they bypass all the NPCs' otherwise considerable defenses - Prot Spirit, Ward Against Melee, Unsteady Ground and Silver Armour, f'rinstance - entirely and unfairly. That's not really enough to call for a nerf, though.
The problem is that anti-touch-ranger hate is too specific for most forms of play - see my examples above re general counters that don't work, and throw in evasive stances and armour buffs as well. Taking counters to even such common threats as hexes and enchantments is marginal enough** that they reasonably only take up slots in the skillbars of one out of every three characters.
Relative to that, if even one out of every five characters is forced to take a specific anti-touch measure, then touchies are warping the metagame in that arena to an extent that deserves a nerf. 'cause seriously, touch-based Blood skills should not be in the same league, importance-wise, as the combined force of every hex and enchantment in the game.
*They're OK on Kurzick, but killing turtles is less significant that killing gatekeepers.
**By which I mean inefficient if we take it as granted that the counter skills in question are sub-par-or-useless if the enemy isn't packing a certain threshold of that specific threat. Which most hex and enchantment strip is.
), simply because of the DPS on static NPC targets plus the fact that they bypass all the NPCs' otherwise considerable defenses - Prot Spirit, Ward Against Melee, Unsteady Ground and Silver Armour, f'rinstance - entirely and unfairly. That's not really enough to call for a nerf, though.The problem is that anti-touch-ranger hate is too specific for most forms of play - see my examples above re general counters that don't work, and throw in evasive stances and armour buffs as well. Taking counters to even such common threats as hexes and enchantments is marginal enough** that they reasonably only take up slots in the skillbars of one out of every three characters.
Relative to that, if even one out of every five characters is forced to take a specific anti-touch measure, then touchies are warping the metagame in that arena to an extent that deserves a nerf. 'cause seriously, touch-based Blood skills should not be in the same league, importance-wise, as the combined force of every hex and enchantment in the game.
*They're OK on Kurzick, but killing turtles is less significant that killing gatekeepers.
**By which I mean inefficient if we take it as granted that the counter skills in question are sub-par-or-useless if the enemy isn't packing a certain threshold of that specific threat. Which most hex and enchantment strip is.
Caleb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paperfly
Relative to that, if even one out of every five characters is forced to take a specific anti-touch measure, then touchies are warping the metagame in that arena to an extent that deserves a nerf. 'cause seriously, touch-based Blood skills should not be in the same league, importance-wise, as the combined force of every hex and enchantment in the game.
By that thought process your "Nerf" should include sprint, storm chaser, and each other run skill in the game. More than one out of every five characters is "forced" to take an anti runner skill on both sides of this battle, so they must be warping your metagame!
Oh, and definitely nerf "Life Bond, Life Barrier, and Life Sheath", as without specific counters against these skill on the Luxon side, your team will have no chance when you come across dual bonding monks on both gates.
Please nerf Minion Masters some more as well, as without specific corpse control skills on your taskbar (which must be warping the metagame, as more than 1of5 needs to bring something?!), well minions can be annoying.
/rolleyes
Flabber Babble
Quote:
Originally Posted by zakariaTouch ranger should be nerfed..i know blackout, diversion, SS, wild blow, warrior's cunning, cripple shot covered with poison...etc. all these are counters to touch rangers but when you force me to and all my team to grab counters coz we might find that half of the opposite team are touch rangers..this is dumb.
We are not forced to bind towards certain build that some ppl see it cool to run it.All of you were talking about single touch ranger...let's discuss about countering half dozen of them in AB then come back to talk with me if it's easy and fun to counter them or not. There are plenty of counters, yes... but I DO agree with Zakaria about having to form your build spefically to tailor against Touchers, it kind of takes the randomness out of AB and RA.
Jas D
I love Touchers. 
Gaile already talked about this situation once.. she said they weren't a problem and there are a lot of ways to counter their build, so it won't be braught up. GGhax.
Gaile already talked about this situation once.. she said they weren't a problem and there are a lot of ways to counter their build, so it won't be braught up. GGhax.
audra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaith Faer
Nothing is funnier than a cocky Mesmer casting Backfire on a touch ranger, thinking that it'll slow them down at all. Seriously, I laugh really hard when I see it happen. 
Oh and guess what? Touch Rangers steal more life than they lose from Spiteful Spirit, so the damage is effectively negated.
You've never OoBd with Backfire on you? Try it, it's fun
Oh and guess what? Touch Rangers steal more life than they lose from Spiteful Spirit, so the damage is effectively negated.
You've never OoBd with Backfire on you? Try it, it's fun
Paperfly
Quote:
By that thought process your "Nerf" should include sprint, storm chaser, and each other run skill in the game. More than one out of every five characters is "forced" to take an anti runner skill on both sides of this battle, so they must be warping your metagame!
Quote:
If you can come up with some better examples I'd love to hear them - if they're good enough they might actually be genuine candidates for a nerf and we'd consequently be doing the Guild Wars community a favour!
Edge Martinez
Quote:
Originally Posted by zakaria
but when you force me to and all my team to grab counters coz we might find that half of the opposite team are touch rangers..this is dumb.
How is this dumb? If half the other team is touch rangers, you better bring counters for them. Are you mad because you can't play a build you like? I'm sorry... I'll send a group email to the rest of the Kurzicks asking them to tone down their aggression because zakaria wants to play a wammo. I remember when smite teams were coming up in PvP, we'd get owned by them hard. Not a single damn person I knew complained about it... we just designed new builds to offset their advantage.
Whatever. This is sad. Gaile and the other GW people are going to read all this crap and give in to the majority of whiners. And know what will happen then? We'll own with a new, more annoying build, because they're lined up and ready to move out.
Now exscuse me, I need to go petition the lottery commission for my check. I know I didn't choose the right numbers, but if they never pick my numbers, how am I ever supposed to win? That's not fair! Nerf Powerball!
Whatever. This is sad. Gaile and the other GW people are going to read all this crap and give in to the majority of whiners. And know what will happen then? We'll own with a new, more annoying build, because they're lined up and ready to move out.
Now exscuse me, I need to go petition the lottery commission for my check. I know I didn't choose the right numbers, but if they never pick my numbers, how am I ever supposed to win? That's not fair! Nerf Powerball!
Guardian of the Light
It may be just me but I think the Touch Ranger Fad is dieing and now it's giving away to more balanced.
LoKi Foxfire
I still think that a 4 man Touch Ranger team can beat most of the balanced teams in AB. However, I believe most of you who complain about this build being unbalanced are the same people who just pick up 3 random strangers into a group and go into a PVP mission expecting it to be all find and dandy.
Overall, I've killed won than I've lost on when I'm running a 4 man touch ranger team but that's because it seems a majority of the people playing don't understand that the concept of a touch skill being... a touch skill. Mind you, cripple doesn't work but I've gotten my team completely DESTROYED by one mesmer using the new AoE snare elite and degen. Slap hexes onto a touch ranger and they're pretty much.
Another thing I do with my groups is make sure we all stick together and away from other major groups. We also have a specific goal: ie capping the shrines. We're far better at quickly downing a single target instead of taking on huge mobs. It seems a lot of the "newb" players either want to mob up or go off on their own and get killed. I take advantage of this. :]
Either way, to sum it up: Stop complaining and get better groups organized instead of your random assortment of people to try to win. I have had people just add as many people in PUGs before and they wonder why they get owned in Saltspray.
Still, I won't care if they nerf the builds, there will come another 'cheap' and 'unfair' build one right after the other. Deal it with and adjust like a good player does instead of whining. :]
Overall, I've killed won than I've lost on when I'm running a 4 man touch ranger team but that's because it seems a majority of the people playing don't understand that the concept of a touch skill being... a touch skill. Mind you, cripple doesn't work but I've gotten my team completely DESTROYED by one mesmer using the new AoE snare elite and degen. Slap hexes onto a touch ranger and they're pretty much.
Another thing I do with my groups is make sure we all stick together and away from other major groups. We also have a specific goal: ie capping the shrines. We're far better at quickly downing a single target instead of taking on huge mobs. It seems a lot of the "newb" players either want to mob up or go off on their own and get killed. I take advantage of this. :]
Either way, to sum it up: Stop complaining and get better groups organized instead of your random assortment of people to try to win. I have had people just add as many people in PUGs before and they wonder why they get owned in Saltspray.
Still, I won't care if they nerf the builds, there will come another 'cheap' and 'unfair' build one right after the other. Deal it with and adjust like a good player does instead of whining. :]
TMWNN
I've earned nearly 200k kurzick faction from AB, I reckon in all those games I would have lost under 10 games.
I've come against many touchers (i usually play monk) I run away from them while laughing at thier pathetic dps while the of my team wtfpwns the toucher.
If you can't beat a toucher team.... oh dear.
I've come against many touchers (i usually play monk) I run away from them while laughing at thier pathetic dps while the of my team wtfpwns the toucher.
If you can't beat a toucher team.... oh dear.
Bale_Shadowscar
Quote:
Originally Posted by makosi
Not another Toucher thread >_<
I maintain my opinion that it is a design flaw and shouldn't happen. "Expertise reduces the energy cost of Attack Skills, Traps and Preparations". Some might argue that these touch skills are not attack skills because the familiar attack skills are described as 'attacks' (e.g. Punishing shot = Bow attack). Others argue that it is in fact an attack when you bite their neck and steal 65hp from them. That's a fair comment but why doesn't Dodge end when you use these supposed 'attacks'? "Dodge ends if you attack" Also, why don't stances block these 'attacks'? Is it agreeable then that in Guild Wars concepts that these are not attack skills?
Expertise reduces: Attack skills, Traps, Preparations. Touch skills aren't mentioned.
There is definitely a discrepancy between the theory and practice of these skill and Expertise that ArenaNet aren't addressing this (or maybe they will address them in the same update as the storage extension or purchasable character slots on 32nd Julembery 2019)
Yes, they aren't overpowered but that doesn't mean it should be allowed to continue. True. Also, if Anet wants to count them as 'attack skills' then they should make Wail of Doom work on them. No touching for 30 seconds for you Mr Ranger.
I maintain my opinion that it is a design flaw and shouldn't happen. "Expertise reduces the energy cost of Attack Skills, Traps and Preparations". Some might argue that these touch skills are not attack skills because the familiar attack skills are described as 'attacks' (e.g. Punishing shot = Bow attack). Others argue that it is in fact an attack when you bite their neck and steal 65hp from them. That's a fair comment but why doesn't Dodge end when you use these supposed 'attacks'? "Dodge ends if you attack" Also, why don't stances block these 'attacks'? Is it agreeable then that in Guild Wars concepts that these are not attack skills?
Expertise reduces: Attack skills, Traps, Preparations. Touch skills aren't mentioned.
There is definitely a discrepancy between the theory and practice of these skill and Expertise that ArenaNet aren't addressing this (or maybe they will address them in the same update as the storage extension or purchasable character slots on 32nd Julembery 2019)
Yes, they aren't overpowered but that doesn't mean it should be allowed to continue. True. Also, if Anet wants to count them as 'attack skills' then they should make Wail of Doom work on them. No touching for 30 seconds for you Mr Ranger.
Faer
Quote:
Originally Posted by zakaria
We are not forced to bind towards certain build that some ppl see it cool to run it.All of you were talking about single touch ranger...let's discuss about countering half dozen of them in AB then come back to talk with me if it's easy and fun to counter them or not. Yeah umm... Just going to point out that those skills/spells are in a lot of people's builds anyway and are extremely useful against most things. So, is it really a case of you being forced to bring a skill you wouldn't bring normally, or is it one of you actually having to use the skill instead of sitting back hitting random buttons hoping you kill something?
I'm thinking the latter... As to countering half a dozen of them in AB? I'm sure if a team in HA can counter 7-8 of them in a minute or less, a team in AB or Fort Aspenwood can do it with the help of the NPC's...
TB_
Expertise reduces all non-spells, few exceptions here and there but its puts basicly. So making the stealing skills spells as they really should be fixes TRs and still allows balance to remain freeing up the game from TRs. Then all AN has to do is kill MM and AB will be saved till the next jerk build appears.
0mar
Balancing for anything but GvG is absurd. Touch rangers are crap in the PvP modes that matter.
Nexus Icon
I absolutely LOVE seeing touch rangers in Arborstone. They're one of the easier cookie cutter builds to goad to death.
Quite often I'll run a mesmer degen build with some nice mesmer snares as well. Typically I'll take all 3 mes snares so as to slow down as many people as possible.
When you see that TR getting close, you whack 'em with Crippling anguish and then just keep far enough out of range so that they chase you whilst you slap down Images of Remorse, Conjure Phantasm & Phantom Pain.
Then when they die, just say something like "Lol, stupid toucher", and you can guarantee that they'll do their utmost to get back to you, at which point the fun starts again
Works a treat. Pisses off Wammos too
Quite often I'll run a mesmer degen build with some nice mesmer snares as well. Typically I'll take all 3 mes snares so as to slow down as many people as possible.
When you see that TR getting close, you whack 'em with Crippling anguish and then just keep far enough out of range so that they chase you whilst you slap down Images of Remorse, Conjure Phantasm & Phantom Pain.
Then when they die, just say something like "Lol, stupid toucher", and you can guarantee that they'll do their utmost to get back to you, at which point the fun starts again
Works a treat. Pisses off Wammos too
Theus
Oh yeah.Thats a fact.Snares + Degen + running away from your target always pisses em off.
But heres a awesome way of killing them:If you're on the luxon side and a warrior/TR/assassin rushes you, run by the turtle's warriors and drop a Imagiend Burden on em.They drop instantly.
But heres a awesome way of killing them:If you're on the luxon side and a warrior/TR/assassin rushes you, run by the turtle's warriors and drop a Imagiend Burden on em.They drop instantly.
dbgtboy
you complainers are acting as if the counters will be usesless vs everything else, take crippling shot or some water hexes and there, touch ranger is screwed, all the counters mentioned here on this thread are very useful vs TONS OF DIFFERENT BUILDS, THEY ARE NOT MEANT FOR TOUCH RANGERS ONLY, so it wont hurt you or your build to take a counter or 2.
Amity and Truth
Wow.
Before i even start i have to congratulate some posters on getting me as far as feeling the urge to bash my head against a wall from reading such loads of moaning and whining. Just... uhm... wow.
Allright, where do we start...
Ah let's start with the overpowered argument. So we're looking at mediocre damage, requiering you to stay in touch range with some healing to it. The healing is as mediocre as is the damage. Standard Touch Rangers don't bring anything to snare their opponents which speaks quantum leaps about the involved skill level. Aside from that, we're heaving a build with not so great damage but good long run abilities, no snares, no interrupts.
There is another very favorite build with just the exact same traits. Mediocre Damage, good long run abilities, no snare, no interrupt. Want to know what it is called? It's your favorite Wa/Mo Build.
Strangely i don't see People scream nerf anymore. They sure used to scream that back in the old days but people quickly got used to handling a warrior, especially as gimped as your average Wa/Mo. The Wa/Mo is still there and considered to be one of the most useless builds ever by a large portion of players.
Do you consider Wa/Mos overpowered? Of course not.
Do you consider Touch Rangers overpowered? Yes you do.
Same Traits, even roughly the same damage, same surviveability. Both basically don't force you to bring any counter at all to kill them.
Overpowered? You wish...
Overused.
Okay, next arguments... it's getting overused. Might be, but in all honesty i see a lot more Minion Masters and Spiteful Spirit Players in AB/RA/TA than i see touchers. Might be my Aura of Bad Build Evasion but they're seriously not that overused.
Overpowered V2.
Someone stated that 6 Touch Rangers with some small organisation can tear through groups of players. Sorry if this sounds as a flame but... everything can. Even a group of six monks, wanding like mad, can gnaw a target to death if they organise their gameplay a bit. Don't even get me started on the havoc 6 Spikers could cause. Simply throwing in higher numbers doesn't help your case as everything gets more powerful with increasing quantity in this scenario.
Counters don't count.
I never accepted that argument as many like to use it. It's just utter rubbish and of no value. If the list of counters is almost 5 times as long as the list of uses... Well i can see where that "counters don't cont" argument is aimed at then. Where there are no arguments, you don't need to answer those and can scream nerf. Dismissing arguments the opposition has by just stating "counters don't count" is piss poor.
There are scenarios the no counters argument might work. And that would be with a skill, build or attribute that is vastly overpowering and dominating every other build. ER was such a thing. Touch Rangers are nowhere near the effect or impact a fully abused Ether Renewal had back then.
Especially if your most efficient counter doesn't require you to alter anyone of your skills. Bring your same old build and just get your butt moving...
Sorry if this sounds rude, it's not meant as a flame, nor as a flamebait. But in all honesty, some of the stupid arguments that float around the room just make my thoughts want to commit cruel suicide.
Before i even start i have to congratulate some posters on getting me as far as feeling the urge to bash my head against a wall from reading such loads of moaning and whining. Just... uhm... wow.
Allright, where do we start...
Ah let's start with the overpowered argument. So we're looking at mediocre damage, requiering you to stay in touch range with some healing to it. The healing is as mediocre as is the damage. Standard Touch Rangers don't bring anything to snare their opponents which speaks quantum leaps about the involved skill level. Aside from that, we're heaving a build with not so great damage but good long run abilities, no snares, no interrupts.
There is another very favorite build with just the exact same traits. Mediocre Damage, good long run abilities, no snare, no interrupt. Want to know what it is called? It's your favorite Wa/Mo Build.
Strangely i don't see People scream nerf anymore. They sure used to scream that back in the old days but people quickly got used to handling a warrior, especially as gimped as your average Wa/Mo. The Wa/Mo is still there and considered to be one of the most useless builds ever by a large portion of players.
Do you consider Wa/Mos overpowered? Of course not.
Do you consider Touch Rangers overpowered? Yes you do.
Same Traits, even roughly the same damage, same surviveability. Both basically don't force you to bring any counter at all to kill them.
Overpowered? You wish...
Overused.
Okay, next arguments... it's getting overused. Might be, but in all honesty i see a lot more Minion Masters and Spiteful Spirit Players in AB/RA/TA than i see touchers. Might be my Aura of Bad Build Evasion but they're seriously not that overused.
Overpowered V2.
Someone stated that 6 Touch Rangers with some small organisation can tear through groups of players. Sorry if this sounds as a flame but... everything can. Even a group of six monks, wanding like mad, can gnaw a target to death if they organise their gameplay a bit. Don't even get me started on the havoc 6 Spikers could cause. Simply throwing in higher numbers doesn't help your case as everything gets more powerful with increasing quantity in this scenario.
Counters don't count.
I never accepted that argument as many like to use it. It's just utter rubbish and of no value. If the list of counters is almost 5 times as long as the list of uses... Well i can see where that "counters don't cont" argument is aimed at then. Where there are no arguments, you don't need to answer those and can scream nerf. Dismissing arguments the opposition has by just stating "counters don't count" is piss poor.
There are scenarios the no counters argument might work. And that would be with a skill, build or attribute that is vastly overpowering and dominating every other build. ER was such a thing. Touch Rangers are nowhere near the effect or impact a fully abused Ether Renewal had back then.
Especially if your most efficient counter doesn't require you to alter anyone of your skills. Bring your same old build and just get your butt moving...
Sorry if this sounds rude, it's not meant as a flame, nor as a flamebait. But in all honesty, some of the stupid arguments that float around the room just make my thoughts want to commit cruel suicide.
Navaros
Touch Rangers are not the least bit overpowered.
Diversion = Touch Ranger is owned.
Cripple = Touch Ranger is owned (unless the player is dumb enough to let himself get Plague Touched in which case he deserves it).
Not standing in one spot = Touch Ranger is owned.
Almost any hex imaginable = Touch Ranger is owned.
There are many others too.
Instead of nerfing Touch Rangers which don't need to be nerfed and should not be nerfed, I think Anet should nerf bad players instead. Keep all the bad players stuck in the Zaishen Missions until they learn enough about the game to not call for illegitmate nerfings against anything they are not smart enough to try countering.
Diversion = Touch Ranger is owned.
Cripple = Touch Ranger is owned (unless the player is dumb enough to let himself get Plague Touched in which case he deserves it).
Not standing in one spot = Touch Ranger is owned.
Almost any hex imaginable = Touch Ranger is owned.
There are many others too.
Instead of nerfing Touch Rangers which don't need to be nerfed and should not be nerfed, I think Anet should nerf bad players instead. Keep all the bad players stuck in the Zaishen Missions until they learn enough about the game to not call for illegitmate nerfings against anything they are not smart enough to try countering.
Doomlord_Slayermann
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navaros
Instead of nerfing Touch Rangers which don't need to be nerfed and should not be nerfed, I think Anet should nerf bad players instead. Keep all the bad players stuck in the Zaishen Missions until they learn enough about the game to not call for illegitmate nerfings against anything they are not smart enough to try countering.
QFT. No whining is FTW.