[merged] Touch Rangers

some guy

some guy

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

SPAWN CAMPING YOUR HOUSE

We Speed Clear H O H [ HsC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raxxman
that's all well and good, but Hamstring needs to hit 75% miss chance with dodge, And if the touchy is carrying Life syphon/transfer your phantasm isn't going to deal that much damage. imagined burden, and conjure nightmares! -8 health degen

RTSFirebat

RTSFirebat

The Humanoid Typhoon

Join Date: May 2005

UK

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by some guy
imagined burden, and conjure nightmares! -8 health degen Thank you! Yes this combo has been the death of my Touch Ranger many a time. I can counter it with Life Sipon and Troll Urgent, but not much I can when I have 2 warriors on me at once

Raxxman

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

TEOC

W/N

Well theirs one takehome message here.

Nerf Mesmers!

chumsy

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

2 wars on you and you rather use siphon instead of vamp?

Aisius

Aisius

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Melbourne , Australia

Crazy Clan[CRAZ]

W/

I can't help but reply to this thread yet again. I'm pleased it's been merged.

Touch rangers can be overpowered if they aren't disabled by using tactics, communication and one or two certain abilities from a profession.

This may seem contrary to what I've said in other posts but while reading this debate on guru forums I've learnt a thing or two about their weaknesses. Thanks to all contibuters
I was able to keep one at bay in RA and AB with just cripple runaway let our mesmer toy with them.

Touchers arn't over powered getting monks in groups is more of a concern for me now:/

Spura

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

Here's what should happen:

Vamp touch and Vamp bite changed to spell from skill. More counters, no more ranger touchers because expertise doesn't work on spells. Also making it spell, it would combo nicely with Cultists fervor, making it a necro primary build, and it would be much easier to kill, because necro lacks throw dirt/evades/anti elementalist armor and cultist fervor has sacrifise so scourge sacrifise would work too. It would make for some more interesting builds.

Satai Katalya

Satai Katalya

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2006

anywhere in GW

ONL Our Name is Legion

Mo/Me

nicely explained amity.
Personally I take glee in owning touch rangers.... its used so often. I've killed more touchers than being killed by them. Change, adjust, own. I might consider trying it myself because in some cases it can be effective. Its the old rock paper scissors but bigger. If you really cant take having ur butt whooped then dont play.

Gargle Blaster

Gargle Blaster

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spura
Here's what should happen:

Vamp touch and Vamp bite changed to spell from skill. More counters, no more ranger touchers because expertise doesn't work on spells. Also making it spell, it would combo nicely with Cultists fervor, making it a necro primary build, and it would be much easier to kill, because necro lacks throw dirt/evades/anti elementalist armor and cultist fervor has sacrifise so scourge sacrifise would work too. It would make for some more interesting builds. i dissagree... your suggestion would kill the build. while i think somthing should be done, i would rather see these skills becomming attacks as you get counters(blind, protection spells, ...) and the build lives... guild wars seems to be in need of more diverse builds

cldhearted00

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2005

N/

well i play against toucher with intterupt ranger and
if theres only one i usually just let them run up to my face and then distract both skills from point blank range and then kill them with whatever else i have
but with 2 it can be trouble

Raxxman

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

TEOC

W/N

they should be attacks...

BowLad21

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2006

If touch rangers ever get nerfed, we will soon see shock rangers!

Curse You

Curse You

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

South Pole

The Magus Order

N/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amity and Truth
Well, well mister know it all. No need to discuss anything then as you've eaten undeniable wisdom with a spoon, eh? If you can't keep the discussion free from trying to personally insult me or totally ignore my arguments by simply stating "you're a touch ranger". *shrugs* That's your personal fault and doesn't help your cause at all.
Well then, I seems I said that you DO play as a touch ranger, when in fact I just said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curse You
First part. You don't seem to have "only" played as a touch ranger just once. From your reaction you seem to play it quite often That is a simple observation, making a guess based on your reaction. I love how people like to think my posts were so specific.

Anyhow, I do not think the two touches should be spells, I have said this before. It would disable the necros too, as the touches are some of the only good attacks against Spell Breaker, Obsidian Flesh, and Shadow Form.

And at this point, I'm not so much concerned about touch rangers as I am about the way expertise works. What is to stop rangers from abusing other classes touch skills in the future? Do we really want to see something like shock rangers (wouldn't work due to exhaustion though)? That's my issue, not whether or not you can kill a touch ranger.
Expertise says: "For each rank of Expertise, the Energy cost of your Attack skills, Preparations, and Traps decreases by 4%."
Now I'm not saying that is should work exactly like it says (though it would make sense if it did) but is should instead only work on Ranger skills (rangers ONLY have skills) and attack skills (warrior and assassin attacks).
I DO have a ranger, and I do use them often. I just use all ranger skills. It's possible, its easy. Don't complain that is would destroy rangers.

bam23

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2006

Touch Rangers are broken.

Seriously.

/signed for Expertise working only on Ranger skills. Just like Divine Favor only works on Monk spells.

Mera Regila

Mera Regila

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

In The Deep

R/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raxxman
that's all well and good, but Hamstring needs to hit 75% miss chance with dodge, And if the touchy is carrying Life syphon/transfer your phantasm isn't going to deal that much damage. You gotta read the description of dodge/zoujin's haste there buddy. Hamstring hits through Dodge because it only has a chance to evade ARROWS, not sword or other attacks.

A simple warrior counter for Touch Rangers is to have your monks remove blind, and to use wild blow on whirling defense/lightning reflexes. Then, exhausting all available options, touch will run with dodge. Simply use sprint, which lasts longer than the speed stances. When you're caught up to the toucher, Bull's Strike FTW, works on all runners, touchies are no exception ^ ^.

P.S. Touch Rangers DO NOT bring Life Transfer, if they did they would have no energy management. If they brought life tranfer and siphon tranfer would NOT LAST LONG AT ALL. Phantasm would last longer than life transfer, and if you added other hexes it would eat through regen given by those two hexes easily, Conjure Phantasm+Crippling Anguish+Images of Remorse=12 degen at 16 illusion magic. Life Siphon+Life Transfer=10 regen, and it lasts way less than those three hexes.

Touch Rangers are TOO easy to kill. Those touch rangers trying to defend their build are admirable to face down the facts that touch rangers are a bad build. Ultimately, experianced players>>>touch rangers, its that simple.

Hyper Cutter

Hyper Cutter

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Knights of the White Eye [HINA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster
i dissagree... your suggestion would kill the build. I think that was his point

Edge Martinez

Edge Martinez

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

NC

DKL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mera Regila
Touch Rangers are TOO easy to kill. Those touch rangers trying to defend their build are admirable to face down the facts that touch rangers are a bad build. Ultimately, experianced players>>>touch rangers, its that simple.
Well since someone taught a donkey to fish, I might as well bite. Those of us defending touch rangers? We're defending them in ABs and maybe RAs. All this 'simply' crap you wrote about? Probably more fit for TAs and GvG, where I doubt you'll see many touch rangers. Meaning you may not have a monk, and meaning it may not be in your best interest to chase a player. And experienced players can beat any build... making the complainers here what? And 90% of the complainers here haven't fought noob touch rangers. They've fought experienced players running a toucher and got owned. Noobs couldn't cause this kind of an uproar, but experienced folks impersonating noobs...

P.S. I sincerely doubt a decent toucher will waste his time taking on a monk and a warrior solo in an AB. And if there is more than one? You lose.

D I Z Z O

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2006

{DfX}

W/N

ive never really enjoyed pvp. but here lately ive been so bored i decided to work on some titles and shit so ive been doin ta & ha. but after a few games i could care less about playing anymore. if it isnt touch faggots, its a full team of blood spike necros. if a game cant be balanced id rather have nothing to do with it. if those builds are the cheap & fast way to get fame, of course everyone's going to be using them. whats the use of other classes now. lets all be touchers & blood spikers....
there needs to be a balance. but you cant tell that to a million 12 yr olds.

TadaceAce

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Turning expertise into ranger only skills would be completely stupid. That would not only destroy the toucher, it would destroy R/W and R/A too, both popular builds.

Listen the only viable option would be make touch and bite spells. This kills toucher, but you get this

Cultist Fervor, Dark Aura, Vamp Bite, Vamp Touch, Consume Corpse, 3 others.

I don't know about you guys but the necro primary toucher scares me more than ranger touchers. With 16 blood and 13 death thats about 150 a pop for 8 energy and excellent energy management. This guy would die easier true, but it still does A LOT more damage.

samifly

samifly

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Girl Power [GP]

Mo/Me

God forbid rangers would be able to use their secondaries effectively. Troll Unguent isnt a Trap/Attack/Prep/Nature Ritual either...

Curse You

Curse You

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

South Pole

The Magus Order

N/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by TadaceAce
(snip)Turning expertise into ranger only skills would be completely stupid. That would not only destroy the toucher, it would destroy R/W and R/A too, both popular builds.

Listen the only viable option would be make touch and bite spells. This kills toucher, but you get this (snip..)
You people refuse to read EXACTLY what I am saying. I suggested (and still do) that Expertise only effect RANGER SKILLS AND ATTACK SKILLS (i.e. warrior and assassin attacks).

Quote:
Originally Posted by samifly
God forbid rangers would be able to use their secondaries effectively. Troll Unguent isnt a Trap/Attack/Prep/Nature Ritual either... Did I say that only Trap/Attack/Prep/Nature Ritual are affected? No, I don't think I did. If I remeber correctly, ALL ranger skills get reduced.

Seriously, read what I say, don't just flip through my type, you miss the important parts.

samifly

samifly

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Girl Power [GP]

Mo/Me

Why shouldnt it work with warrior stances, or just ranger ones? How about shouts?. why is only just "Attack skills" allowed?. It would kill rangers because it would seriously hinder their ability to use secondaries.

Assassins get extra pip of energy and critical strikes. Rangers get expertise, theres really no reason to make it just apply to ranger skills and "attack skills"

oh -and sorry for not reading that part. my apologies.

Curse You

Curse You

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

South Pole

The Magus Order

N/Mo

OK how about this,
Expertise would effect:
Ranger Skills
Attack Skills (ranger, warrior, assassin [dervish?])
Stances (mantras would be included)
Shouts
All "rituals", ranger or ritualist (it is actually part of the original description)

I think I have now covered all things that aren't unessicary to alter. If I missed something, I probably forgot about it.

RTSFirebat

RTSFirebat

The Humanoid Typhoon

Join Date: May 2005

UK

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by bam23
Touch Rangers are broken.

Seriously.

/signed for Expertise working only on Ranger skills. Just like Divine Favor only works on Monk spells. Never going to happen, so stop asking for that.

Hidden in the Mist

Hidden in the Mist

Banned

Join Date: May 2006

Admit it, Anet is never going to nerf Touchers or IWAY for that matter.

Celios

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2005

Canada

Black Crescent [BC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hidden in the Mist
Admit it, Anet is never going to nerf Touchers or IWAY for that matter. Except that IWAY has gone through multiple nerfs in its lifetime and touch rangers are incredibly easy to counter with nothing more than a skill or two. If there are really that many of them out there, exploit it.

Shadow of Light

Shadow of Light

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Australia

Mo/

We could use some skills that work against touch skills in general, though. It would make things more interesting.

Like...

1. Lightning Current (Ele: Air)
For X seconds, the next person to use a Touch Skill on you is zapped for Y damage and knocked down.
or
Burning Skin (Ele: Fire)
For X seconds, the next person to use a Touch Skill on you is burned for Y damage and set on fire for Z seconds.

2. Jealous Spirit (Necro?)
For X seconds, the life-stealing skill used on target ally works in reverse (benefits the target, detriment to toucher).

3. Poisonous Ichor/Flesh Disease (Necro?)
For X seconds, anyone using a Touch Skill against target ally is poisoned/diseased.

4. Broken Fingers/Crippled Hand (Warrior/Assassin)
Strike the hand of the next person who attempts to use a Touch Skill against you, causing weakness for X seconds and disabling that skill for Y seconds. (I can see the Shock Warriors protesting now...)

5. Dwayna's Blessing (Monk)
For X seconds, the power of Dwayna protects target ally. Life stealing skills and vampiric weapons will not drain their health to benefit an enemy.

6. Sacrificial Spirit (Rit)
For all allies within its range, any life-stealing skills used against allies instead draw from this spirit until its health expires.

And so on...

Nvwa Strider

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2006

R/

yeah right, next skill is gonna be

''all foes in the area that got necromancer as their 2nd proffesion will instantly explode''

Spura

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster
i dissagree... your suggestion would kill the build. while i think somthing should be done, i would rather see these skills becomming attacks as you get counters(blind, protection spells, ...) and the build lives... guild wars seems to be in need of more diverse builds So? It is a stupid gimmick build, it won't be missed. And if they changed to spell, a new, much more interesting build would be born. Cultist Fervor touch spammer. With higher DPS but less defense and it would run out of energy faster. Also being a spell it would have more counters.

People say it does have counters, so it isn't overpowered. Truth be told, touch ranger owns 90% of builds in AB. Sure you can use diversion and distracting shots, but they are still a bit overpowered if you have to bring such specific counters. I remeber this same discussion about a year ago. It was about draw conditions smiters with ether renewal. People said they weren't overpowered because you could diversion their spam. But you can counter any skill with diversion. And in the end teams were bringing 2 or more dom mesmers just to deal with smiters. Any other build would lose.

The existence of counters doesn't make something not overpowered. It has to do with availability of counters to various classes. And in AB you have less of a luxury of having a team build to counter things for you than in HA or GvG. You can't count on dom mesmer diverting that toucher for you. So you basically have to carry all counters for the cookie cutter builds on yourself. Which for something like assassin means: You have to have Way of the fox or wild blow, you have to have AoD, which you cancel after combo, or they will put their conditions on you.

Shadow of Light

Shadow of Light

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Australia

Mo/

There are touch skills in more than just the necro department...

*shrugs, goes back to game*

samifly

samifly

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Girl Power [GP]

Mo/Me

In the latest Patch - Expertise's description has been changed to "all non-spells are reduced by 4%"

milias

milias

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Nov 2005

Defected back to America

Me/E

Quote:
Originally Posted by samifly
In the latest Patch - Expertise's description has been changed to "all non-spells are reduced by 4%" Awesome! I've always liked playing my ranger

Now, let's hope the Paragon and Devish classes have some non-spell skills that are useful to a ranger.

grogxz

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Coming from PvE just played on RA to see how the new professions perfom. brought my N/Mo. i found the monks in RA very anoying and thought of something to be a little bit annoying to them without changing to much and changed 2nd profession to Me.

build before:
LT/Lifepainstrike/Shadowstrike/Vampiric Gaze/Barbed Signed/Rebirth (good in PvE Public)/Hex or Cond. removal depending on area
(I play SS MM and 55 too but thats my own build so use it most of the time with little modifications)

after modification:
LT/Lifepainstrike/Shadowstrike/Vampiric Gaze/Energie Burn/Diversion/Rez Signed/Plage Touch

worked better then my PvE build of course.
yeah not great but got me my first 2 Gladiator points.



first encounter with a R/N Touchie:
someone called him as target
me PvP noob just followed saw the skills he used and my little brain thought activate anti spell skills -> energie burn diversion.
u know it already - he went down fast. someone said touch noob owned and me of course asking what it is -> look at gwguru well here i'm. now i know what the fuss is about and why my build accidentially worked so well against this special foe. my Vamp skills hurt them, my life trans couldn't be countered by the standard touch ranger, energie burn workes well on the low e-regen of the most builds, distortion halves their efficency if it hits the right spell and thats highly probable since they cast their spells very often and fast.

after that i had more encounters. the team with the touchers lost in about 80%. the teams that i got the gladiators points with had no touchers and one of these even got no monk (D/? R/? N/Me N/Me).

draw your conclusions.

easyg

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

Hawaii

FPS

Mo/Me

My only problem with touch rangers is that vampiric touch really doesn't make any sense. It should either be redesignated as a spell or it should work like an attack skill.

If it's changed to a spell, then expertise won't reduce its energy cost.

On the other hand, if it remains a skill then it should behave like any other attack skill. I.e. it should be dodgeable, or blockable, and affected by condtions like blindness etc.

Ilya Khan

Ilya Khan

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Los Angeles, CA

-FdM-

Me/Mo

Traps would help, no? Standing under a friendly AOE attack? I say you bring back the Touch ranger's greatest foe - the trap or spike ranger. Pop up frozen soil and revive the good ol' days, if ya ask me.

grogxz

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

If a solution is needed then i vote for Expertise should work like Divine favor.
This solution lets the real rangers still have their excellent energy management and does not impact the necros who would not be happy if their skill is changed.
It prevents further exploits that may or may not come with the new professions. A complicated system is susceptible of unwanted synergies.

KamikazeChicken

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/

Can you people let this thread die already? Gaile already jokingly asked if Touch Rangers deserved a nerf. She truly didn't think they do, and she'd be absolutely right. Seriously, kite the damned R/N, and let it go. They're not overpowered, they've never been overpowered, and they're easy as all else to negate. >.>

Notice how KITING doesn't even involve the use of a skill. Anyone can do it! It's just happens to be made even more effective with healing, kds, diversion, snares, etc. helping out.

Caleb

Caleb

Nil nisi malis terrori.

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/Me

This thread is tougher to kill than a w/r with 7 dead pets in the area!

LordLucifer

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

A/

ooooooooooooooooook didnt read all 9 pages but..

a build that doesnt require the player to look at the screen too much, every1 knows exactly what hes gonna do, and MOST builds out there cant stand the slightest chance to beat (or you counter it or your chance is 0%..) IS overpowered and NEEDS a nerf.

makosi

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamikazeChicken
Can you people let this thread die already? Gaile already jokingly asked if Touch Rangers deserved a nerf. She truly didn't think they do, and she'd be absolutely right. Seriously, kite the damned R/N, and let it go. They're not overpowered, they've never been overpowered, and they're easy as all else to negate. >.>

Notice how KITING doesn't even involve the use of a skill. Anyone can do it! It's just happens to be made even more effective with healing, kds, diversion, snares, etc. helping out. Now that's plain ignorance. Kiting is great in theory but you can't attack or cast spells whilst moving and rangers bring running skills and will catch up with you before you know. Practically, its not as effective as you might think. Cripples are then plague touched on to the nearest foe and water/illusion snares have poor durations. In most situations, kiting renders you useless for a number of seconds.

KamikazeChicken

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by makosi
Now that's plain ignorance. Kiting is great in theory but you can't attack or cast spells whilst moving and rangers bring running skills and will catch up with you before you know. Practically, its not as effective as you might think. Cripples are then plague touched on to the nearest foe and water/illusion snares have poor durations. In most situations, kiting renders you useless for a number of seconds. Kiting has been used against warrior trains, touch rangers, anything getting in melee range, since this game has been released. It's the most effective defensive ability currently in the game. Just because people are horrid at it doesn't make the ability any less effective.

1. Touch Rangers won't be able to spam on a kiting target, even with a speed boost.

2. Crippling can't be touched off, unless people are standing still. Yes, that's a common instance in ABs, but that usually means they're now off you and on someone else.

3. Most useful water snares have 10 second durations. If your team can't stop 1 overextended target in 10 seconds, you're not doing something right. I'll chalk this up to being ABs.

4. Kiting is still the best defense ever against anything trying to get in melee range. Yes, touch rangers and warriors are always going to catch up. They'll always have a speed boost. Kiting a warrior means use the run+stop strategy to reduce crits. Kiting a touch ranger means you can't be spammed, you'll just get a few hits here and there.

5. You shouldn't have to constantly spam things on any character you could possibly run in PvP. Monks don't even require having to heal things 24/7, especially in RA/TA/ABs. If you're having that much trouble kiting and healing as a monk, you're truly not that great at monking and/or kiting, and you still need more practice.