Anti-"Freeloader" Extremists?

Nobody is making an argument that breaks are never excuseable, so Lelani, Algren, it would be really practical if you two would stop claiming that this was said just so you can pull the more extreme examples like children crying at night out of the closet to disprove a point nobody made.

The argument made was that something like food or toilet breaks are avoidable, and the advice was given that if they do happen to suddenly overcome you, you just explain it to your team and if you will be gone too long you leave the group. You don't just say 'brb' and leave them guessing to what's going on.

It was a rather blatant attempt at singling out my argument, again. Honestly, Lelani, my patience is wearing thin. Please keep it up, I dare you.

Like I said, until you go back and read my actual argument, and not this silly twisted version you have conjured up to use against me (straw man fallacy, anyone?) please shut your mouth.

It's actually HER not him but that's just nitpicky.

Your comment about Principa begrudging bathroom breaks is what he too umbrage at, I'd guess.

Yes in fact I did and it makes no sense. You cant be the most disorganised person you know and be able to organise yourself so well. It makes no sense! And please constantly asking me if I've read your post is quite tiresome. The process of organising your time makes you organised, thus you cannot be disorganised. The two are mutually exclusive i.e opposites. However this is going back and forth and as a moderator you should know where to draw the line, more so than I. So any further posts regarding this I shall ignore. It is not in any way productive.

On the contrary. I'm known as one of the nicer ones, it's EnDinG you have to watch out for.

There's no reason to lock it, not yet anyway. It's stayed civil, and the fallacies from both sides are being kept to a minimum. It will get out of hand, though, as it always does, and that's when it will be locked.

and I agree with you...and anyone that has stated similar opinions...I simply choose not to care one way or the other. Guild Wars IS a waste of time(it's supposed to be)..whether I waste it advancing my character or waste it sitting around in a mission laughing and joking with the other people waiting...I really couldn't care less. To me, and that's not to say it is or should be to others, Guild Wars(and all video games for that matter) is a means to escape life for however long I can....nothing more. I gain no sense of achievement from winning or being the highest level or being able to solo this or that....I simply enjoy not having to worry about anything else for however long I play....if someone has to leave or go AFK mid mission...I really couldn't care any less about it.

Darn.

*gets out popcorn anyhow and takes a sideline seat*

I'll explain this one last time, because you're still completely missing the argument with your bull straw man games and I'm tired of it.

Yes, I am a disorganised person. No, the things I'm talking about take no effort and the actual required organisational skill to do them is completely minimal as it should come naturally to most people. I was playing on the fact that if my lacking organisational skills can arrange something as menial as game time, meal time, and potty breaks then anybody can do it.

Now, as I've explained fully, any further straw man attacks from you will be killed on sight. *Poster mode off, moderator mode on.* Feel free to cry about being picked on.

Edit: I just hilighted the exact part you're misunderstanding. The activities I am talking about do not require someone to be "so good" at organisation. That's the entire point.

This topic has strayed a few light years off the OP.

The OP joins a PUG, and then in short order has to eat (because food can't go cold!) take a leak (because those big gulps are huge!) or otherwise watch tv, chat online with his friends, and basically give a full 10% of his attention to the game and task at hand.

And then he is amazed that people say to him, "good riddance."
It's called consideration - and the OP really needs to understand what that means, because its obvious he is clueless.

If I know you and have adventured with you before, go ahead - grab that popcorn, take a bio break, whatever; because I know you're coming back; we have a repoire you see, some trust has been established.

If I don't know you from Adam, show some friggin common courtesy and either play - or don't. Most people do freeload these days, sorry to say, and the rest of us won't tolerate it. No matter how desperately your food must not get cold!

It really is that simple.

Talesin

roflmao

sorry for the wasted post...but I felt the need to express my emotional feelings toward this post specifically

OK perhaps saying that Discordia takes the game too seriously was unfair. It just appears that way. I apologise for that. However the rest of what I said was attacking his argument and not him. I don't wish to cause offence. But if an argument is full of contridiction how can it have merit? However as I have said thats enough.

Talesin has tried a valiant effort to get this thread back on track, it would be in everyone's best interest to follow his example.

I agree

Sheesh, if your daughter needs you then of course you go. I have two kids myself, BUT if it's not your daughter then be courteous.

Anywhere in this thread have you seen someone suggest you should let your daughter bleed out on the floor while you're typing?

What a totally and completely irrelevent argument to apply to this thread about showing common courtesy toward other real people.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with GW and everything to do with freeloaders.

You just don't have to look someone in the eye when you're rude and inconsiderate while playing a computer game.

admittedly I did not read every single post...nor do I have a strong opinion for or against it...however it did appear that the original poster was merely pointing out the extremities some people will go through to "nerf" that "free-loader"...My original evaluation of this thread was not that it was a whining thread..but merely a thread pointing out how innately asinine people can be.

And how exactly do you know that's why I went AFK?? How do you know that I went AFK for something dire and not for something trite?....you don't...you can't. You think I went AFK for whatever reason...either way it's your perception of a situation you are removed from. I assume anyone that goes AFK mid-mission has gone for a reason more important than playing Guild Wars....otherwise they would stay and play...that's all I need to know to not care whether or not they come back.

The thing is that so many people go AFK without stating a reason, you can't tell them from those people who go AFK and stay AFK to get experience points and gold without even contributing to the team or to the mission.

This has become so common that people these days see "BRB-" or "AFK-" and think "Oh Lord, not again. Are they actually coming back this time or not?"

See, I think this is a good point. If everyone can agree to not tolerate it, it will stop. People only freeload because they're gambling that you won't go back to the town to ditch them. If people can start demonstrating that they will ditch them then the free loading will stop. Of course this has to be a community effort and the chances of that are slim.

I guess the second method would be to try and openly threaten people joining your group, "if you freeload we will return to town and kick you." However this will probably just invite griefing as people will now purposely go afk just to tick off the guy who was making threats.

I don't see a good way around this problem unless anet finally gives a vote kick system or that amazing thread about spitting the instance gets implemented.

-Diomedes

We'd know why you went AFK because, hopefully, you'd say "I'm sorry to leave the mission so soon, guys, but XREALLIFEPROBLEMHEREX."

Edit: Actually logging out instead of reaping rewards while being AFK is a nice start, too.

but I already stated that I wouldn't....to me the members I am partying with don't matter the minute my real life interupts the game. Is it selfish...absolutely it is. But my real life is far more important than a game, as I would hope all of yours are. I wouldn't leave my computer during a mission or quest for any reason other than something very very important...but you won't know this because I won't have the time to tell you....so on your end I'm a freeloader(not that this happens often but it does from time to time)....on my end I am a person very sympathetic of your need for me to finish the mission...however I lack the will, the time, the luxury or the need to care once something important in my real life interupts my play.....it's all in your perception of a situation you aren't involved in....which is the very reason I don't hold anyone accountable for leaving mid-mission. I simply assume it was more important to them than playing the game.

EDIT My daughter finds her way into the drawer that contains the kitchen knives......am I going to take the time to log out of Guild Wars?

And how often, exactly, does something so critically and harmfully important come up that makes you have to leap out of your seat immediately and idle? Besides, when it's something like that, fine, no explanation is required, but if it's something so simple as grabbing a bite to eat, your team would rather know about it.

What is a straw man attack? I'm not versed in moderator lingo.

With regards to the original posting I am all for being considerate when going afk, but not when it interferes with my real life. For example when a group asks me to be considerate by staying up til 3 or 4 in the morning on FoW when I have work the next day. The first time I played this I was mislead to how long it would last. Then I have people moaning at me to stay on and go to work late. What? I'm sorry but that's plain ridiculous!

I definately agree with you....and it almost never happens. I don't think I've ever gotten through a mission or quest free-loading...because I enjoy playing and I normally play at night when I don't have anything else to do. I'm merely pointing out that there is no conceivable way for you OR I to know why someone has gone AFK....we aren't sitting in the room with them and we have no idea where they went or why. If they all of a sudden had a case of the squirts or a friend called and wanted to go to the bar to drink...or if they are simply sitting in front of the monitor just not doing anything...I don't know OR care...it effects my fun so little that it's not important if they free-load. I just assume that if someone isn't responding or playing they've found something of more importance to attend to. Maybe they have....Maybe they havent. I have no way of knowing...and thus I refuse to care about it.

Surely you can spare three seconds of your important life to type something more than "brb", such as "sorry, daughter crying, might take a while". Let's not bring in emergency situations where for instance your daughter stumbles into the room with slit wrists, ofcourse you won't be bothering to type out why you'll be away for a bit then. We're talking common practises here.

Also, the fear of AFK'ers originally came from people who join a group, go AFK after a minute or so for the sole purpose of hitching a ride - freeloaders. Your faith that they have something very important to do such as tending to their children is very touching, but at the same time quite naive. To freeloaders, sitting back and watching TV while you advance their character for them is more important to them than playing the game. That is the reality, and negatively affects those who leave their computer for legitimate reasons, whether you like it or not.

-edit-
A straw man attack is basically taking an argument from someone else, then skewing it to unreasonable extremity thus basically turning it into something you can easily mock or disprove. You're basically attacking a vulnerable position your 'opponent' never took, like a boxer beating down a 'straw man', then proclaiming victory, while his actual opponent is left untouched.

A simple example of this is the original stated opinion "I think health care should get more government funding". Someone else will take that argument and use a straw man attack with "So you're saying our government should spend all of its money on health care instead of the military or education? Leaving our country defenseless against terrorism? Our children without schools? Children NEED education and safety, so your proposal is ridiculous and immoral!"

Sorry, everyone. My kid is bleeding.......


took me 8 seconds to type and everyone will forgive you if you go AFK.

Why does this post remain?

you missed the point....and I really don't feel like attempting to explain it another way...so for the sake of argument you can simply ignore my posts....or realize the fact that it's not me being naive...I am quite aware that 9/10 times they aren't doing anything more productive...I simply don't care...I just couldn't possibly care less if someone is freeloading...so I choose to believe they found something more important to do(knowing full well that they probably didn't)...


Thanus: Straw Man Attack isn't "moderator lingo"....it's a Biritish collequialism. he's saying that you are stating beliefs that NOBODY in this thread has...and then attacking those beliefs as if the person you are refering to actual shares them.

Chev: it could take as little as 7 seconds for the body to bleed out should you slice a major artery...surely my time is better spent attending to her than it is saying "brb my daughter is bleeding"....regardless this is a "straw man attack"...as it has nothing to do with the point I was making...only with the example I used.

I'm with you on that front. However as I was saying earlier sometimes people make mistakes and do forget that someones making food because they are forgetful/disorganised or sometimes they aren't able to predict when they need to go to the toilet.

(Still don't get the straw man buisness. I am british. I have never heard of that phrase.)

I am amazed that this is still going on. LOL! The points here can be boiled down to a few things:

1. Be considerate.
2. Be courteous.
3. Take care of RL issues if they arise. Give a reason if you can. If it is an emergency, God bless.

What'd I miss?

Hmm, hitting M and zoning back to town to regroup and pick up a new teammate doesn't seem very excessive. If the person can't give more than a 'brb', for whatever the reason, he should perhaps expect that the party of strangers he's with won't dawdle around waiting for him to return.

You get the same courtesy you give. Really. If I were in a PUG and had to go so very fast that I can't type more than 'brb', I'll fully expect to be booted and understand the reason for it. If they do wait around, it's a bonus, if they don't, it's fine. So who's getting bent out of shape over something asinine? The booter or the bootee?

I'm not sure how organised one must be to just visit the loo before say, watching a movie in the cinema. Or buying a snack before it starts. Surely you'd prefer the person sitting in front of you to have dealt with those two common biological needs before settling down to watch no? Instead of standing up in the middle of it, blocking your view, and the view of everyone else as he makes his way out and back into his seat.

Sure, you didn't pay for a ticket that had some insurance that said 'Guaranteed no walkers during duration of movie'. But isn't it common courtesy? Or am I overestimating what's common nowadays?

Same thing for the game. People really shouldn't be expected to make allowances for strangers who have to eat this moment before the souffle collapses into inedible mush. Or pee immediately or risk a burst kidney. Yes, there are people who must eat at appointed times but it should be the exception, not the rule.

Algren, you don't care. And that's your perogative. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess most others do care, and will boot an AFKer that doesn't give more info besides a 'brb'.

Aniewiel, I'm amazed this is even under contention, let alone going on for this long...

To the original poster, I'd have booted your rear as well. Bio breaks take less then 3 minutes - even if you have to do #2. (otherwise you can hold it). These are almost always tolerated. If your group had time to run all the way back to town, you took too long and you're not telling the entire truth.

Also, it won't kill you to not eat for a little longer - we're all fat enough already. If it was your wife's cooking or something equivalent, you shouldn't have joined a group in the first place. You knew ahead of time you'd have to bail.

Little kids? Emergency? Understandable. Click that big X at the top right of your screen - it takes 1 second.

People's impatience is not the problem here, its the AFK'ers inconsideration for the rest of the group.

This is the crux of your problem right here. You (and others) continue to justify things by saying RL is more important than the game. This is absolutely true. But then somehow you extend that to "I am more important than the other players", which is absolutely false.

To me (since you consistently seem to think it's a valid argument to say you do things one way so everyone else should too), once I group with people, I enter an unspoken social contract, that binds me to care about them at least enough to minimize my inconvenience to them and explain myself if I can't avoid it.

If you have to stop 15 minutes into the mission to pick up your kid from soccer, nobody has a problem with you prioritizing your kid over the game. What people have a problem with is you entering into a mission in the first place. You shouldn't have joined in and screwed over the rest of the group when you knew you'd have to pick up your kid. If it's an unforeseeable problem like your kid cutting themselves, NOBODY EVER SAID the game should outprioritize that, so don't act like that's what this is about.

nobody has gone as far as to say "I am more important than other players"


the issue was an emergency(or something more important) that arises outside of your scope fo the future

I see these as equivalent.

No, that's precisely not the issue. Read the OP. I don't know where you got this from.

So, it's settled. If you child has severed a major artery, let them die. It will take more than 7 second to get them to an emergency room anyway.

OK, so that was uncalled for, but you have challenged that I would sit and type about my child and how theri head is dangling from the nerves in their spine vs. helping. Let's be honest, to a child, a wound that really can wait 20 minutes will be an emergency. So you type: Sorry everyone, kids bleeding..........

Everyone is happy, or content anyway, and you have RESPECTED THE OTHERS IN THE GROUP ENOUGH TO LET THEM KNOW YOU WERE THINKING OF THEM.

Can we get a list of all the players that are willing to just go AFK for a bathroom break? I think that information may just be helpful in the future

The straw man fallacies were bad enough, but if these slippery slope falacies continue then I'm just going to lock this down.

Just for those who don't seem to understand logical fallacies; A slippery slope fallacy is saying something worse every time your point is knocked down. "Ok, explaining a pee-break is understandable, but what if my kid was stabbing herself to death in the kitchen? Ok, what if a nuclear weapon landed on my house? Ok what if the sun exploded?" and so on. Keep it realistic, people, please.

Edit: And I should also clearly point-out that I don't think Guild Wars should take precedence over anything like a child having an accident in the kitchen. By all means, if this happens, leap out of your seat and tend to it, but anything less and the group would like an explanation, even a quick one, before you go idle.

conveniantly left out the part where I said "as I would hope yours are"...but if you had left that part in it wouldn't have benfitted your argument...so I can certainly understand why you'd leave out the part where I draw a parrallel between the importance of my life and the importance of yours.



I did read the OP...you haven't read(or maybe you just didn't understand) any of my posts....I simply stated that I just don't care. if you want to leave go ahead...it doesn't affect me at all. I simply choose to believe that you had an emergency and had to leave...because I honestly don't know why you left...nor do I care to figure it out. It's just a game...the outcome of which has no bearing on my life at all...


Principa: it was simply an example of how I view things. I ASSUME you left for an emergency...whether or not you DID leave for an emergency has no bearing on my life...no effect at all. It really doesn't matter.

See, this is where the problem lies. You may assume that people leave for an emergency, but experience has taught most Guild Wars players in recent times that many people like to go AFK and watch TV while you get their character gold and experience, not to mention finishing a mission for them.

Yes, it could be possible that they have had a crisis and need to leap out of their seat immediately and tend to it, but ask yourself what is more likely; A serious crisis, or some snot-nosed lazy punk who can and will idle the mission without having to do a single thing.

Simple logic, and some help from Occam's Razor.

I think EVERYONE on this thread, barring a chosen few, has been saying this over and over. Why won't people just HEAR it?

While there is no empirical way to prove it, I would hypothesize that MOST 5+ minute AFKers are not leaving due to an emergency. They are simply and selfishly doing their own thing at the expense of other's time and patience.

*sigh* Anyone ever wondered why people just QUIT in the middle of a mission without saying a word? *points at thread* .

What's better:

(1). "im have a problem, can you guys wait about 15 minutes?" -> Makes you wait.

OR

(2). "sorry guys, unexpected event came up, gtg, bye" -> Logs Off.

Stubborn? I don't know. But read my post above about Occam's Razor and which explanation is more likely.

Ah, but you see, if people did actually quit then people wouldn't be complaining so much. Unfortunately, people don't quit, people go AFK without explaining why because usually they want to freeload through your mission and do diddly-squatt themselves. This is where the entire problem lies in the first place.