(Rant warning) F the bandwagon monks.

1 - I didn't edit out my comments, the BBS software did.

2 - I can't for the life of me see how you can mix two completely separate arguments and claim they refute or contradict one another. It's not MY fault you failed reading comprehension 101. The first was explaining that an exploit is not a skill that to some people's opinion is "overpowered". That's an opinion, not an exploit. I can't help it if you don't know the difference between an exploit and an unbalanced (in some people's opinion, again) skill.

3 - Does or does not the skill work according to it's description?

While you maintain this "Enchantment", target ally cannot take more than 5% damage at one time. When Protective Bond prevents damage, you lose 6-3 energy or the spell ends.

What part of that description doesn't meet the qualifications of the skill not working properly? Is it or is it NOT? Does it or doesn't it work exactly as it says it does?

If it does, it's not "broken", nor is it an exploit. It may or may not fit your idea of what game balance is, or not, but that's your OPINION. It also is working as intended the developers wished, simply because it works as advertised. There are no hidden bonuses, or it makes you lose less or more health, or fails to stop working when it says it would.

Please do not lecture me on what *I* wrote, as you're failing miserably.

Now, about reading the dev team's mind. I JUST provided a description of a skill straight from the developers. The skill works as written. You can NOT argue (well, you could if you're a moron) that the developers didn't INTEND for the skill to work in the fashion it does, as it works exactly as they say it should. This does NOT violate any rule I wrote. I said to provide direct proof from a dev that the skill isn't working as intended yet claim *you* know what the development team thinks. HOW? Where is your proof?

I'm still waiting for your proof, instead of rehashing your OPINION.

you can get prot bond down to taking only 1 energy per hit....so the skill description is not accurate.

The skill description is entirely accurate, it just scales from 0-12, it doesn't scale all the way to 17, so although it could be considered somewhat incomplete, it is most certainly not inaccurate.

But if a single skill skews a significant part of PvE towards one specific build/method of appropriating items and wealth, it's in ArenaNet's best interest to tackle it. To those people making excuses about their 'right' to this skill: ArenaNet gets to decide on that, and that's why I've given up trying to argue with you people - people get stupidly defensive around something that's putting easy cash/items into their pockets.

To those threatening to leave if this gets nerfed, you've lived without 55/105 farmers, you can live without 55/105 farmers yet again. If this is the sole thing holding your interest in GW at this point, maybe you don't have that much time left in this game anyway. Don't support your claim to 'right' on the 55/105 monk with gripes about unrelated issues such as grind and bad PUGs, they should not excuse bad game balance like this.

Same here man, only difference is, I am now in the Ring of Fire and only those missions remain for me to beat the game.

The reason monks can solo the tough places is because jackasses like you (referring to the creator of this thread) believe monks are inferior and should just be there to heal everyone.
Hell, I am sick and tired of being ordered around by some arrogant warrior who has starter armour in the Crystal desert and is trying to take on a huge mob of creatures solo while screaming for me to heal him. It's my reward to be able to solo the places you will never get to in your fancy platemail helm, and make a lot of money for my troubles. Your turn to bow to me when I sell you an ecto for 5k. Your turn to say "yes, sir!" when I ask you if you're a n00b. Your turn to be my bitch.

I apologize for picking one quote out of your post and harping on it, but it does get a bit frustrating to hear these two fallacies repeated over and over again and this sentence just happens to have both together. First off, the 105/55 smiter is hardly invincible. Like every other class, there are areas that they will excel in and areas where they will be brought low with ease. The fact that the first stage of the UW is one area where the 105/55 smiter excels isn't a good reason to call for a nerf of the build, IMO.

Secondly, indeed there are tasks that a 105/55 smiter can do with ease. But does that mean that they have no skill? I use my 55 smiter to explore the UW for personal enjoyment. I apologize for tooting my own horn, but when I laboriously fight my way past the Obsidian Behemoths and start probing into the Undead lands on my own, I don't think it's fair to say that I lack skill when I'm doing this. I guess my point is not all 105/55 smiters are built strictly for farming. There are plenty of us who just like to explore solo. Is that so wrong? It's disheartening when a group of people you're not bothering in the least start demanding that your avenue for enjoying a game be removed.

Of course copying a build from a forum requires no skill. But there's a pretty good chance that you either run an air spike, a spirit spammer, an E/Mo smiter, or some other FoTM type build. Which makes you a hypocrite. These builds require no skill.

By the way, I congratulate the original 105 builder for not only creating a conditionally effective build, but also pissing off so many people who understand so little.

Stop bitching about the 105/55 Monks.. What's your problem..?

Money doesn't make you cool. Someone with a Monk like that can't pay more then the best items, and even those, are pretty cheap. If you play the whole storyline the way it should be played, you'll get enough gold to make that character equiped with the best items.

Exactly. Sure you can go on a solo smite run, but it takes skill and careful planning to do much else. Behemoths are a pain, as are Coldfires in any large amount. We all create our own challenges in this game, so I am thinking a live and let live mentality best fits this situation.

Never said it wasn't.

Kindly re read my post again, I never called for a nerf. I called for fixing the rewards system, which is why people farm in the first place.

I never called for a nerf or a removal. Your idea of fun is your idea of fun, and I respect that. It does take skill to do what you do, but ask yourself this. How many other people bother to try to do the same? How many stick to their herds of cows instead, just to rake up cash quick? How many go on google, type "invincimonk build", copy what they see, and never look back?


I have a mo/w healer, a w/mo tank, a n/me blood caster, and my new protector monk. I charge for my services on none of my characters. None of my characters farm or rely on fads to be effective, either.

Sure, the creator, (whoever it was), did have a lot of insight into the workings of guildwars, but how many people that copy the build do? Maybe 2%. You might think that's low, but there are -that many- of those "monkroaches" out there.

On the issue of soloing the UW:

There was a crazy w/r that went all tactics and use shield to do damage, and relied on stances to keep his butt alive. He was able to kill them off one at a time. Yeah, that's real efficient. Props to him though for trying, and not making another m/w.

Here's an instance of a build that requires -skill- to pull off. Go to google and type "power mesmer". Using the last class anyone could think of, the creator combined skills in such a way that he gets hit less than 3% of the time, meaning a 98% chance of success with 3 enemies at a time. Of course there's a certain order the skills have to be cast in, certain vital ones that can't be interrupted, but this build will never be a FoTM. Why? You can't enter the UW, go to bed, and wake up alive in the morning. You'd be shredded to pieces.

And lastly, another build that can do the same thing as the monkroaches can... granted it requires a monk secondary, but here goes.

N/Mo
Aura of the Lich
Protective Spirit
Mending
Whatever else you like

Aura halves your damage, turning spirit into bond, effectively, without the energy cost. Equip some +1healing items and recast mending until you can hit 14 for the +4 regen. Wala.

First off, -5 degen does nothing of consequence to a 55 HP Monk. The good builds are well aware of their weakness to degen attacks and specifically shore up their defenses there. That regen is also the most efficient healing for a 55 HP Monk should not be glossed over.

But because the point has been lost again, competitive PvP Protective Bond builds are not 55 HP Monks. Saying 'but I can kill a 55 Monk!' doesn't mean anything. Different circumstances, different builds.

Peace,
-CxE

That was the most insanely stupid post I have ever seen. Your response was aimed at the wrong person, Einstein. LMFAO.

to sum up :
- 105/55 monks are not invincible in PvP
- 105/55 monks are not invincible in PvE
- 105/55 monks are used for farming (but, hey, farming can be done efficiently with Warriors and Elementalists too)
- in the end, everybody play the way they want to play

I don't see why the hell people are complaining about the 105/55 monks...

Because if they were not complaing, they would not have anything else to do, except post threads like this about some other topic, like why coke o cola is evil, or why gym socks are the antichrist, or why...You get the idea...


So was I. That is the whole friggin point, his post is baseless accusation. I solo in the god damn UW all the time, and he says it cannot be done unless you are the class he claims is unbalanced. I, nor any associate of mine, is that class. This is the dilemma, peeling back the denial and getting to what this thread is REALLY about: Nothing but one player having a fit, and my refusal to sit here and listen to it silently. Whether or not he has agreeing souls or disagreeing souls, his original post is based on a misconception, and outright disinformation on his part, and his refusal to shut up about it because I won't stop proclaiming his thread to be outright false crap.

Once again, his post is non-reality. You DO NOT HAVE TO be the class build he specifies to solo, he simply picked on a class, and I called him on it, and the rest is history.

Fallacy indeed.

Just FYI someone thought up a Mesmer build that could solo the Bladed Aatxes in Underworld.

I think the skills used were these:
1. Signet of Midnight (elite)
2. Epidemic
3. Distortion
4. Wastrel’s Worry
5. Empathy
6. Phantom Pain
7. Chaos Storm
8. Spirit of Failure

Signet of midnight, epidemic, distortion, and spirit of failure used to avoid damage, and the rest used to damage mobs.
It's a lot tighter and requires more timing and a bit of forethought but it's certainly possible.

I'd try it out myself but I don't have a PvE mesmer

This is what I was reffering to, it's the 'Power Mesmer' build that was posted on gwonline.net. It certainly will never reach the popularity that the m/x has, but it's nice to see some creative people trying new things.

Do you use protective bond or protective spirit?

No I currently do not, which is why I even entered the thread to begin with. The OP says that those 2 items are the focal point for his main argument, but because I solo (botless before anyone starts that shit again) in UW and FOW without those to skills, or that class for that matter, therefore disproving his entire thread as nothing more than whiny bullshit.

Another thing to think about is, despite a small group of people saying he is correct that it is PROVEN FACTOID that this is going on in UW is simply not indicative of reality. I pick up random groups, on purpose, all the time also, when not soloing, and I NEVER get that build. NOT EVER. What district are you people in? I simply see no validity in the OP and cursing at me and screaming at me and then sniping back at me because I keep pointing that out does not change the fact that no one from anet has come forward to acknowledge this is a problem, nor am I hearing it anywhere but right here, repeatedly, and to no effect save people's blood pressure rising.

The isseue simply, like the economic doom-saying, does not exist, and I am playing the same game many of these people are, I thought...

It is just a game. It has no effect on reality. So if people want to copy something and use it then let them. People post builds on forums all the time. Others copy them or modify them. Sometimes it improves the build or leads to new things all together.

I am normally a healer but also have built this smite build for fun. And guess what. When I leave my computer that fact that I have followed a flavor of the month for one of my characters has no impact on myself or the people around me. I play the game for fun. I give stuff away or not. That is my choice but at the end of the day it has no impact on any one else in the real world. All this constant ranting does nothing but give people headaches over a video game.

It is just a game let it go.

After reading 12 pages of replies, I found some really good arguments made and certainly there are some good readings!! It sure helped kill time while I'm on my day off!

Here are my thoughts after reading all replies:

I'm still not convinced that the skill - protective bond - is "broken". I am not one of the developers of the game and therefore I wouldn't say the skill has been "broken" when it is doing exactly what the description says. One may say the use of ‘protective bond' has been abused, while another may agree on that 'protective bond' has been cleverly used.

My question is, can a warrior solo some parts in the game? Can an elementalist do the same? I have read from this thread that many had claimed these are NOT impossible. There's even news of mesmers are able to go down to the UW and solo. I also have a guildie - ranger - who can solo hydras and the crystal desert and does his farming daily. Do the skills they use need to be nerfed? Would those skills be called "broken"? Are these any different from a monk doing honest solo farming? I believe not. All these professions can use their skills to solo and farm certain parts of the game, so why call on the monks only?

On other forums, these questions had drawn my attention:
- Why are there 20% +1 skill artifacts implemented?
- Same goes to the minus health focus icons.

Not that I can answer these but since someone is smart enough to put the puzzles together and created a build for an unexpected class to solo in limited areas of the game, it is a build that is strong against only certain other builds, I don't see that a problem at all. I see a similar situation with pvp/hoh builds, one team build is only effective against certain team builds.

IMHO, the ‘protective bond’ skill certainly isn't overpowered since it is NOT invincible to ALL.

Side Notes: I have to agree with some that it is horrible to see some monks wanting to be paid for healing services. Lately, I have changed from mo/me to a mo/w, I am 100% good healer when I'm group with others, but now, I mainly group with guildies to do missions and quests. I am against those who charge for healing/protection services, but I much prefer to solo or farm if I had a choice of searching for a PUG to do anything I play GW for the sake of enjoyment and be able to help my friends online. Too many bad experiences with bad players had me turned away from PUGs.

Yes.
Yes.


Those are a lot easier.

I believe for the most part, the reasoning is that the UW and FOW are meant for parties of 8. A monk doing what 8 players can do, without breaking a sweat, might point towards an imbalance of some type.

You need 16+1 (item) Protection Prayers in order to get Protective Bond to only subtract 1 energy per hit. The minus health makes the monk stronger, by decreasing the amount of damage done to him/her, and increasing healing spell effectiveness. A 4 regen mending will be a lot mroe help at 55 hp than 105 hp.

That's your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it. There are quiet a few that would disagree with you, though.

In my opinion, you shouldn't play a monk unless you want to help others. Or smite. Until recently, no on charged for smiting, though. PUGs can be really bad.. but that's how you meet new people. The people I meet in PUGs sometimes can be really great, and that makes it worth the trouble. Besides, I have more fun playing with others than henchmen, or myself. I get lonely. That's just me, though.

I concur with you, but that is not going to happen anytime soon I am afraid.

Sensible among the senseless.

Sorry charlie, I cant believe a word you say because I gave you the opportunity to show me I'm wrong in person, to show me one class who can do what a monk can do in UW. Not surprisingly, you went on a long backhanded insult laden tear about how yout dont have to prove anything... LoL, You can sit there and say you disprove that my thread is wrong, but somehow you believe that you dont have to prove anything, once again, its same old thing out of you and the rest who want to flame me here, the rules you want to apply to others you cant apply to yourself. You are the judge of what requires proof, ROFL. I, and others, provided all sorts of proof about the problems with prot bond but its not what you want to hear, so you think you've disproven that by claiming that any class can solo UW, without any actual factual support of that fact.

LoL poor you.... so horribly mistreated by me. What do you expect when you're rude and insulting to people, did you expect me to thank you? Besides, nobody requires you to be part of this conversation but you keep coming back, like a bad penny. So if its so horrible to be called out on your crap (any class can solo uw, without any proof, for example) then feel free to stop participating. I'm willing to wager though that anyone who does solo in uw, playing along with the unproven notion that other classes can, they cant go afk while 6 aataxes beat on them.

No class can solo the UW. None. Certain classes can solo certain portions. Here's a short Mesmer build to get you started as they are they the most unpopular PVE primary class:

1) Signet of Midnight
2) Epidemic
3) Distortion
4) Channeling
5) PBAOE of your choice
6-8) your choice. I recommend something cheap with little to no recharge time for one of those skill.

That will get you through a portion of the UW. Just as a 55/105 will get you through a portion of the UW.

Here's another for a W/E:

1) Ward Against Melee
2) Armor of Earth
3) Healing Signet
4) Watch Yourself (may not be necessary)
5) Bonetti's Defense
6-8) Your choice of skills

The key to this would be using Healing Signet while you have Ward Against Melee up so as to not diminish Armor of Earth's AL. With Watch Yourself, you'll be taking 1 damage from pretty much anything there. This is with Platemail Armor, btw, as the 85 natural AL comes in handy.

Elementalist primary, can be done with earth/x skills.

1) Armor of Earth
2) Ward Against Melee
3-8) Whatever you want

This would actually be perfect for an E/Mo with Ether Renewal and Divine Boon.

Necro...well, in all honesty, I'm not familiar enough with the Necro class to come up with a build but I'm sure one exists.

Also, these are all really simple builds. There isn't any creativity or fancy anything going along. They are also build which I have personally tested. They may not get you as far as a 55/105 but they will get you past certain parts. So you can claim to have solo'ed UW just as much as anyone can! Especially since no one has done that!

Your OP. Your response to the responses it was guaranteed to invoke. Irony. Idiocy. Common.

Beating a dead horse should be a clue here, but I digress. I already said to you that I refuse to take your bait and humor you. I do not have time for you in that regard, and you and I both know why. Your personality in game would differ none from here. But you know that, so that has no meaning.

I didn't prove my point, you cannot prove your own, so I will simply agree to disagree.

true enough, but then you didn't take the minimal effort make it so that the two points could be seen in the same post, which is kind of nessisary if youre going to attack the logic of my responses, of course the responses wont make sense to a 3rd observer whos seeing them out of context.

Of course you cant see your own contradictions, if you could see them you'd stop. I wouldnt expect you to see your own contradictions, thats why I'm here. You clearly stated that "using a skill as intended" is not an exploit. Or are you debating that fact? Do I have to repost your own words for you?? Then 2 sentences later, you tell us all that we dont have the right to say what's intended. Which by the way I never did, I clearly said that I dont believe the devs intended protbond to allow a monk to go afk with 6 aataxes beating on him. So lets put 2 and 2 together and get 4 eh? You can tell us what the skill is intended to do, because for your first argument to be valid you would have to be able to do so. You can't say "intended use is not an exploit". Without implying that you KNOW what the intention was. Then you turn around and say that theres no way we can know what the intention was so were not allowed to say what we believe the intention was. Same cracked logic of 90 percent of the people who flame me. They can lay down the rules for us, but they cant even follow thier own.

Please go back and find where I say the skill doesnt work as the discription says it will. You wont find it. Because I never said that. What I did say is that you're clinging to this sad excuse for logic that the 30 word skill description you get from mouseover is some kind of indepth review of what the Devs intended the skill to do. Its your way of playing see no evil, hear no evil with the fact that the skill is being exploited. But now that you pointed it out, the scaliblity of the skill is wrong of course. Because if its not wrong in the description its an exploit to make it say 1 energy instead of 6-3.

There you go again, doing what you tell the rest of use we arent allowed (lol) to do.


The problems with this paragraph are myriad, yet it basically boils down to two points.

1.)you believe that the skill description is gospel and that it sums up the entire intent of the developers, thus allowing you to tell us what they intended. You also seem to believe that its entirely impossible that a 30 word spell discription leaves room for unintentional consequences. This is also false. The rule of unintended consequences is a rule of life. Its inescapable, there are ALWAYS unintended consequences. 2.)You say that I claim to know what they intended and I NEVER did any such thing. I clearly stated that I believe that they never intended such a thing. I dont have to prove my beliefs to you, I understand that you don't believe what I believe and I'm fine with that. My beliefs do not require you to do so.


You're going to be waiting for some time then, because I dont see how i'm required to prove what I believe to you. If I were stating it as fact, like you are, then proof would be required. I know you think you've provided proof by way of the skill description. That too is YOUR OPINION, just like above, its YOUR OPINION that the entire intent of the devs is summed up in the skill description and that it leaves no room for unintended consequenses. My opinion is that your contention that the skill description gives you the ability to tell us as a fact what the devs intended is incorrect.

Funny how I was able to dismantle your arugments without insulting you. Something you were not able to do.

Ok, then hurry up and agree and feel free to ignore this thread from here on out. I dont believe you for a minute though, how many times have you already "said goodbye" on this thread?? ROFL. Think about this on your way out. I'm speaking about facts, the fact that there are TONS of monks soloing UW. I dont see how that requires proof, because its a known fact, are you saying its not true? I've failed to prove there are tons of monks soling in uw, and no other class?? Sorry didnt think I had to prove to you things that are obviously fact. I also stated that I believe that the Developers never intended the skill to perform in such a fashion as to allow whats going on with monks. I'm not required to prove this belief to you, just as my belief doesn't require you to agree or believe with me.

You on the other hand say that anyone (who knows what they are doing), a wonderful disclaimer there, can solo uw in any class. You state this as fact, and expect it to be accepted as fact. I dont accept that as fact. And I gave you the opportunity to show me this fact. You say you didn't prove, I say where I come from its put up, or shut up. You say you didnt prove, until I see it, I'll say you can't prove. But oh well, you've agreed to disagree, so bon voyage, have a nice life!! May you never feel the need to laden this thread with wordgames and supposed facts without proof again.

/waves bye bye
/blows a kiss
/hopes its for real this time.

IMO, I can play any character and in many cases, I'm helping others. Not only monks help others, being a part of a team is already helping others. And there certainly are no rules as to why one should play a monk or how it should be played. (With decency of course )

Like I have said, I chose to play the monk is because I wanted to help my friends - I enjoy helping people, I have met many through PUGs that are decent and nice. But after many bad experiences with PUGs, I have found that soloing in UW is much better time investment than going with a PUG

Besides, the profession Monk is available to all players, it is not restricted to certain player group. I partied through with friends and pickup groups to finish the storyline as a healing monk, and have more than enough resources to become an 'invici-monk'.

I agree with you that an area allows a party of 8 can be done by solo seem pretty imbalanced. But in order to explore the entire area and complete the quests/missions in UW/FOW, it is not possible to solo. Or it could be just me failing to find out one can clear the entire UW/FOW area by soloing.

Since max damage weapons, armors are just as asscessible through collector's items, I don't see the disadvantage of these invinci monks farming created for others. Especially when anyone can become an invinci-monk

P.S I usually play guildwars at my bf's house, we have 5 computers there (me, my bf and his brothers) and farming sometimes becomes a competition between us - to see who gets a rare item first, whose run gets the most gold. Sharing your experiences with other invinci-monk is just as interesting. When you have the resources of being an invinci-monk, you may not always play the 105/55 style. I just believe that playing invinci-monk may not always be a lonely way of game play

Here is my problem, I have read the first 6 pages of response to this issue, Elistan posts he made this build...well first of all I am willing to bet he has made over 1 million with the build. I am willing to bet he wants for nothing at this point for any char. he choses to create. All he wants is to fix the problem(so he says). I have gone through the entire game as a healer, decided to make a change...so i started to create a soloist....the reason for this soloist is to go UW and make a buck here and there.....sell good things cheap, and not have to pay exploited prices to the people like that who got theirs and now want others to pay for it. I dont care about the economy if I get to write my own check....all i want is to fix a problem too.....there are too many idiots that took advantage of a situation for themselves and it was fine, now because others have a chance to do the same they want to say it needs correction......sounds like a republican to me....ANET leave it alone

Well, heres an arugement we've heard before. The ubiquious "'you're rich and you just don't want others to be rich." arugment, Its nearly as common as the "youre just poor and jealous because you cant afford to do it yourself" argument. Which is really funny to me because both make incorrect assumptions and its funny that people have tried so hard to apply them to me and fit my thinking into some little predefined box they have... Rofl.

Well friend, you're wrong, I've never had 1mil plat. I dont have FoW armor. I soloed some just because I wanted see how the build works, For it is a slick exploit indeed. So your argument that it was good for me but not good for others is invalid.

Its also funny to me how some people make the argument that the nerf shouldnt happen because it would be pointless because money is worthless in this game, yet others tell me that the nerf shouldnt happen because its not fair that I (supposedly) took advantage and they should be able to as well... ROFL

Its an exploit, and it needs to be fixed on that merit alone.

Can you read english? Dude, read up on what exploiting is. Using a skill or combination of skills that are ingame and can be used LEGITIMATELY, without using unlawful methods (hacks, 3rd party programs, ect.) are NOT exploits. Some combos might be overpowered, or underpowered, but not exploitng.

Let me answer all 3 of those then.

Pro bond is not being exploited, its being used exactly as intended. Its made for you to take reduced damage. 5% each hit. Do you think it would do anything against a duel shot, kindle arrows, quickshot ranger? They would die in seconds. Or a Necro with Lifetransfer, downed in seconds again. I addressed this before. There are so many counters to it. Removal or degen, or fast short hits.

It just so happens that Ataxes 2-hit almost everything else and attack slow as hell. Against things with life siphon and drain life attacks (unaffected by reduction at all) the build does nothing. Just like the E/Mo smite does nothing against Healing Seed, yet it demolishes things without similar spells.

Does that mean its imbalanced? No. That makes it good. Good, but there are easy counters. I will attempt to name every spell that can counter the "invinci-monk" build.

Rend Enchantments
Shatter Enchantment
Drain Enchantment
Inspired Enchantment
Lingering Curse
Well of the Profane
Strip Enchantment
Rotting Flesh
Life Siphon
Life Transfer
Malaise
Wither
Energy Drain
Energy Tap
Ether Lord
Energy Surge
Energy Burn
Panic
Signet of Weariness
Conjure Phantasm
Crippling Anguish
Illusionary Weaponry
Migraine
Phantom Pain
Channeling + any spamable spell
Ether Feast
Chilblains
Faintheartedness
Feast of Corruption
Suffering
Well of Suffering
Barbed Signet
Unholy Feast
Vampiric Gaze
Vampiric Touch
Phoenix
Mind Burn
Rodgort's Invocation
Searing Heat
Immolate
Incendiary Bonds
Nature's Renewal
Debilitating Shot
Fertile Season
Symbiosis

All of these do one or more of the following:
1) Steal HP so that it is unaffected by Pro bond
2) Cause degen through burning or other means
3) Remove one or more enchantments
4) Give the Pro bond more HP
5) Drain Energy

All of these will help the pro monk die.

Try soloing a bunch of necro NPCs with that build, I'll laugh when you die from one life drain spell because you have 55 HP. It works on Ataxes, but not much else.

Do you call every ranger bandwagon for using spirit builds in HoH? Or smiting E/Mo using zealots fire and divine boon? or other monks using mark of protection and zealots fire and divine boon? You can kill anything that way.....

I don't hear you calling for the big nerf stick.
What is wrong with people copying good builds? Its called meta-game. A large aspect of this game. Just like Lightning Spike, and E/Mo smite and spirit spam, Quad-Ward Eles, KD/AS Warriors. Its just something that works, people copy it, then people stop using it when the meta-game goes against it. This is the way any game with a meta-game is. Am I wrong?

Its funny, in PvP, one guy tried it, the mesmer/nec we had in our group in random hit Shatter Enchant and he died. /gg

haha gay nerd

obviously you get raped too much to even go NEAR tombs. as for uas, arena net used false advertising, and lied to us when they said that there would be no grind when they lured us into buying this unreturnable game

Mirhi: from your list, the following can be easily worked around:
- Single removal, will only remove chaff you put up, monsters take turn casting
. Shatter Enchantment
. Drain Enchantment
. Inspired Enchantment
. Strip Enchantment
. Chilblains

- Degens that aren't powerful enough by themselves to get the job done:
. Life Siphon
. Phantom Pain
. Faintheartedness
. Suffering
. Well of Suffering

Then there's skills that shouldn't be on this list in the first place:

- Damage or life-stealing skills whose effect most certainly gets reduced by Protective Bond:
. Illusionary Weaponry
. Feast of Corruption
. Barbed Signet
. Unholy Feast
. Vampiric Gaze
. Vampiric Touch
. Phoenix

- Skills that work differently than you apparently think:
. Channeling + any spamable spell [Channeling does not actually steal energy]
. Searing Heat [nobody is dumb enough to stand around in this until it ends]

All of a sudden the list is quite a bit shorter, and considering a full skill list containing ~450 skills total, you're going to be able to avoid most of the dangerous skills by just picking the right place to go to. What's left is aggressive enchantment removal (Well of Profane, Lingering Curse, Rend Enchantments), energy denial which tends to kill most non-Warrior solo builds equally (lots of mesmer skills, debilitating shot) and 'on fire' condition - stacked conditions or mixes of degen/conditions can also get dangerous, but the chance of meeting either is curiously small throughout the game.

Now please list all the skills that are totally ineffective against Protective Bond, their effect getting nullified by mending or breeze in under a second while simply providing the monk with energy. The list is a lot longer than the remainder of your list, and that's the basis for the 'imbalance' argument - this setup removes an immense number of worries a farmer or explorer could have, in a way no other setup can even get close to.

I fully support a nerf to Protective Bond and Protective Spirit because they are so good that they encourage people to solo farm instead of cooperating with others. I'd like both options to be equally viable, don't get me wrong - solo'ing should not be discouraged, but neither should cooperative play. I fully support a nerf to Zealot's Fire/Divine Boon/Draw Conditions (combos with these need to be worked out) for the same reason, same with Ether Renewal which is simply a ridiculous elite in its own way.

I can't believe you mention meta-game here - are you saying the PvE monsters are going to get on Teamspeak and rethink their strategies to stop you? When one build works, it will continue to work. There is no 'meta-game', there's just further and further improvement on a broken engine, and unless something is done about it, this game will degenerate until the only thing left in PvE is 55/105 farmers and casual players with regular characters who have no idea what they're doing wrong.

Elistan, it seems you repeatedly bring up the UW specifically. As in, you say you don't care who solos, you don't care who farms, and on and on... but that the UW is absolutely meant for a full group and that is that. Putting aside the fact that people come up with creative ways to do UW in small numbers all the time (like trapping groups)... if ONLY the UW were changed, so that it were impossible for such monks to solo there - would you be content?

Somehow I don't think you would. You have a lot of hostility towards these monks. You come up with names for the people using the build and you call it an "exploit" every chance you get... while at the same time you admit you often used the build yourself. How can you expect people not to view this as a little hypocritical?

Then, you say that the devs never intended a monk to solo in UW, so it must be an exploit? That's a little silly - the skill does, in fact, work as intended. The 6-3 energy in the description is just for protective bond up to 12 protection, and I'm sure someone with your knowledge of the game is WELL aware of that. So let's stop misleading people. Additionally, the 105/55 builds are a creative use of a combination of skills, not just that one skill. All of said skills, separately, work exactly as intended. To call it an exploit is just mislabeling it to try to get people to side with you. Call the build overpowered if you like, but the truth is that it's not an exploit, and it doesn't help your argument to call it that. An exploit is something like the old bug on Elona Reach that let you get in without starting the timer. Exploits involve bugs - there are no bugs here.

You also say prot. bond, or the combination of skills in this build can't be gotten around without removing the enchantment, but it has been shown that there are other ways... the effectiveness of these other ways are debatable, but the point is that several counters exist.

In all honesty, you have brought up very few valid points, other than the fact that grouping needs to be BETTER REWARDED, which will fix the problem of so many people wanting to solo in the first place. I commend this point of yours, but everything else you have said has very little to back it up. You come across as overly hostile and bitter in your posts, and I'm not saying you are - but you come across that way.

I still haven't seen a convincing reason why ANet should change protective bond. All I have seen is evidence that people basically get punished for grouping, compared to soloing (with any class that can do it, not just monks). It's very short sighted to say that this build should be nerfed, because new solo builds are thought up all the time. As long as it is more rewarding to solo, many will seek to do so. The true, long term solution is less rewards for soloing and better rewards for grouping - NOT prevention of solo play. I, and others, have said this repeatedly throughout the thread, yet you seem to ignore that aspect of it in this little crusade of yours...

That's actually wrong.. it would never work without Spirit Of Failure. Try to keep the information correct that you post here. And give credit where it's due.
( directed towards AeroLion )

AN Will have to approach changing the Super Monk as its called. Saying Nerf this or nerf that isn't always the samrt move. If they nerf one thing they have to boost another othr wise it would make the class not useable. A simple way eliminate the super monk is to give the Grasping Darknesses Shatter Enchantment. I think this would be much better than a skill nerf. Also for those of you saying to remove Protective bond from the game listen to this please. That would be a Major Game change since after release such changes arent very likely casue there would haveto be something to replace the removed skill. Anyways like i said a simple Shatter Enchantments would stop the Super Monk In its Tracks.

Smarty pants. Let's put it this way, then. A monk is great at covering up another character(s) flaws. This is why people that could never get anywhere by themselves always need a monk in the party. Of course there aren't any rules, I was just saying... I think you know what I meant. =P

Yeah, if you relate time invested to money recieved. Like I said before, I just enjoy the human contact.

The resources are not why I don't have an 'invici-monk'.
No doubt you do, but I like to be different. I wasn't one of those trend wh*res in grade school.

No, you're right. I don't think anyone's done the whole thing to date.

Uh... they're worth more?? Collector's weapons don't come with mods. I think we both know you're trying to justify greed, here.

Pft, well not all of us have friends, you know. ;_;
At least ones that are real....

Ah, but you see, my ignorant one, since all we have to go on IS the skill description, and you've failed to provide written proof otherwise, AND the skill works as described by the skill description - then I'd say you're simply (again) stating your opinion based on zero basis of reality. Your failure to acknowledge that you're wrong reinforces my contention that it doesn't matter what people write, you'll stick to your misguided beliefs, even when I'm not the only one refuting them. You have no idea what a real exploit is, and your panties are in a bunch based on ONE skill you deem an exploit.

So, then my only response to you is - no wonder you were banned from TGH forums.