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Originally Posted by Dzan
A class of characters is using their skills as intended! Stop the presses!
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Something must be done about ranger interrupts
Shinsei
User Name
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Originally Posted by FrogDevourer
Arguments which have been proven to be irrelevant: - This build can be countered |
I don't think anyone has proven that any arguments are irrelavant. "Don't nerf my ranger" and "Rangers are already weak" aren't even valid arguments. So they can't logically be irrelavant. An argument must first be valid before it can be irrelavant.
Akathrielah
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Originally Posted by Dzan
They don't bring just rangers, the team is 3 rangers and a monk.
But anyway, this is a joke. Next thing you clowns are going to call for is nerfing Penetrating Blow and Executioner's strike because they are so good when done in an eviscerate chain with Frenzy on. Oh No! A class of characters is using their skills as intended! Stop the presses! |
Savage Shot, Punishing Shot and Distracting Shot are interrupts. Do you people understand the functions and purpose of interrupts? Do you people understand that this build with Kindle/Conjure (and add in OoV and OoP just to be an ass) outdamages nearly everything else AND it interrupts at the same time in a under a second?
Just to give an example that everyone should be able to grasp, this is as if eviserate and executioner's strike interrupted a target in addition to the damage (and condition for eviserate) they inflict.
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Originally Posted by Username
How has that been proven? and please don't tell me the lame ass argument people on this board use...i.e. "if I have win-game skill and you have anti-win-game skill to counter does that mean win-game is balanced?"...because it's serisouly the worst argument in the history of arguments. It doesn't even make sense....AND if you think about it....yes it IS balanced. You have a skill that takes the game to one extreme and your opponent has a skill that takes the game to the opposite end of the extreme spectrum...
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john little
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Originally Posted by Man With No Name
Increasing the recharge times across all interupts doesn't seem viable ( we can't get to the point where interupts take longer to charge than spells :P )
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I don't think the ability of a ranger to interrupt should be spammable - interrupts should be about trying to stop the most powerful/effective attacks, not about shutting someone down.
RTSFirebat
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Originally Posted by Akathrielah
PvP 1st, PvE 2nd
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| Just look at how the skills and the game itself was balanced right out of the box, hell just look at the BWEs. This clearly is a PvP oriented game. |
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| Besides I've yet to see a Ranger bring interrupts in PvE. |
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| A smart rebalance would merely tone the damage down on the interrupts, thats about it. This way Rangers wouldn't be able to do ~200 damage in about a second or less AND be interrupting to boot. |
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| As a side not if you think Rangers are underpowered you seriously have been playing another game. |
Akathrielah
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Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
So can a IWAY warrior using an axe, seen one take me down in the same as I can using a rapid fire build. So why not nerf them as well?
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Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
No one said we underpowered, but everyone seems to feel the need to rag on ANY ranger build that has merit. It hard for rangers to get in HoH parties as it is, why take more alway from us. If they change it, I'd quit PvP for good, that the way I feel about it.
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FrogDevourer
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Originally Posted by User Name
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moonshadow
I don't necessarily think they should be nerfed, but I think it would be nice to have a bigger selection of counters. I know 3 are mentioned here, but I'm just saying it would be nice to have a little more of an option on how to deal with it.
User Name
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Originally Posted by FrogDevourer
Sigh... You're serious, right? Sure you're not just trolling smartly? Alright, I give up. You win. If you haven't been able to understand the Leech Signet argument, there is no point in trying to open your eyes.
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I understand that argument perfectly...it's just a stupid argument. It doesn't make sense, you just THINK it does. Making up hypothetical skills that are so obviously unbalanced it's painful doesn't help to clarify why any specific skill itself is unbalanced. It's just a nice way of getting people to join your side....as it's quite obvious that "Leech Signet" is unbalanced. That argument prays on the weak minded who will associate "Leech Signet" with whatever skill is currently being discussed.
The post I quoted was an obvious iQ ballwashing that discouraged anyone to attempt to argue against them...Shinsei is right(in my opinion)...however discouraging people to post an argument by making it painfully apparent that you're just going to add their argument to a list of "irrelavant arguments" isn't exactly a great way to moderate a forum.
KallDrexx
Can someone PLEASE explain why interrupts should 1) be spammable and 2) do more damage then regular ranger builds. PLEASE
Tactical-Dillusions
Wouldn't it be more mature and intelligent to provide ideas for new skills which could not only widen the range of everyones spectrum, but possibly provide a solution to this "alleged" imbalance?
Why is it always one side of the coin folks? Broaden your horizons.
Punishing shot is elite, rangers have preparations, rangers interrupt capabilities are one of it's primary attributes.
Good players who know how to use rangers can deal damage and interrupt at the same time.
KallDrexx, please define a "regular ranger build", i'm interested to know.
Why is it always one side of the coin folks? Broaden your horizons.
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Originally Posted by KallDrexx
Can someone PLEASE explain why interrupts should 1) be spammable and 2) do more damage then regular ranger builds. PLEASE
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Good players who know how to use rangers can deal damage and interrupt at the same time.
KallDrexx, please define a "regular ranger build", i'm interested to know.
KallDrexx
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Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions
Wouldn't it be more mature and intelligent to provide ideas for new skills which could not only widen the range of everyones spectrum, but possibly provide a solution to this "alleged" imbalance?
Why is it always one side of the coin folks? Broaden your horizons. |
Shinsei
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Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions
KallDrexx, please define a "regular ranger build", i'm interested to know.
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Tactical-Dillusions
So where does ArenaNet state that the +dmg with interrupt capabilities isn't what they intended upon design of the ranger class?
I thought preparations and attack buffs were added for a reason. IE, slow attack speed, average armour and mediocre mana pool/regen.
I thought preparations and attack buffs were added for a reason. IE, slow attack speed, average armour and mediocre mana pool/regen.
User Name
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Originally Posted by KallDrexx
Because the real idea here is that Interrupt rangers do more damage then regular rangers and therefore it's a single class balance issue. Interrupts shouldn't do as much damage as damage rangers because the interrupt capabiltiy should have a downside to it, not doing enough damage. You can't boost non-interrupt skills cause that could make rangers too overpowered.
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Tactical: if that's the way ArenaNet intended it to be they should have removed every other ranger skill in the game...as you'd be a fool to use anything other than Punishing + Savage + Distracting + Preperation..you're doing the most DPS a ranger can do in the least amount of time AND interupting almost all actions..
Shinsei
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Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions
So where does ArenaNet state that the +dmg with interrupt capabilities isn't what they intended upon design of the ranger class?
I thought preparations and attack buffs were added for a reason. IE, slow attack speed, average armour and mediocre mana pool/regen. |
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by Shinsei
Does it really make no sense to you whatsoever that a ranger devoted to interrupting and attempting to shut down should do less damage than a ranger devoted to dish out high damage? If not, please stop talking now and let the real discussion continue.
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KallDrexx
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Originally Posted by User Name
Punishing should do more dmg...it's an elite and you should get a bonus for using it.
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Shinsei
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
Not if you think about it a moment. Rangers dong interrupts are hitting someone with an arrow and doing enough damage to completely disrupt their concentration in attempting to cast a spell. This is common sense. Interrupts are adding that extra oomph to do more of a job than your basic arrow.
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KallDrexx
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
Not if you think about it a moment. Rangers dong interrupts are hitting someone with an arrow and doing enough damage to completely disrupt their concentration in attempting to cast a spell. This is common sense. Interrupts are adding that extra oomph to do more of a job than your basic arrow.
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User Name
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Originally Posted by KallDrexx
Not disagreeing with that. But as a WHOLE an interruption build shouldn't do as much damage or more then a high damage build.
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then yes. I completely agree. A damage build should do more damage than an interupt build. But the only ways to fix this without killing interupt rangers(rangers using the skills as interupts and not as damage dealers) would be to fix the skills to only do damage when the opponent is casting/using a skill or by having the skills ignore the preperation. I prefer the latter over the former as I'd hate to miss the interupt and then see a big -0 because my attack did no damage.
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by KallDrexx
Dont' bring reality into this. Otherwise anytime you would hit someone with anything they would be interrupted and this game would be as retarded for casters as DAOC is. GW is not real life.
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KallDrexx
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Originally Posted by User Name
then yes. I completely agree. A damage build should do more damage than an interupt build. But the only ways to fix this without killing interupt rangers(rangers using the skills as interupts and not as damage dealers) would be to fix the skills to only do damage when the opponent is casting/using a skill or by having the skills ignore the preperation. I prefer the latter over the former as I'd hate to miss the interupt and then see a big -0 because my attack did no damage.
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FrogDevourer
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Originally Posted by User Name
...as it's quite obvious that "Leech Signet" is unbalanced.
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MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by KallDrexx
And thats what this discussion is for
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Not every shot is perfect, give interrupts a (high) percent chance to actually do the interrupting, maybe tied to expertise. Leave the damage alone.
Acan Vishnu
In fact Distracting Shot limits the amount of damage that can be done by the arrow itself (This is also true of Concussion Shot, but thats only moderately relevent to the discussion). With that in mind I can say with a fair amount of certainty that it was not designed to be in a high damage build. However, because it can be used to circumvent your bow's cooldown and still gains the bonuses of preperations and such... Well, the combo just gets better and better.
KallDrexx
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
Some semblance of "reality" needs to be considered for things to simply make sense. Why don't all attacks interrupt? Spell casters are trained to focus through most distractions and finish the spell, which is why it takes special skills to actually interrupt a casting. There is always a degree of logic that can be added to even games.
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| Not if you think about it a moment. Rangers dong interrupts are hitting someone with an arrow and doing enough damage to completely disrupt their concentration in attempting to cast a spell. This is common sense. Interrupts are adding that extra oomph to do more of a job than your basic arrow. |
The point is that that the special skills that interrupt do more damage then the special skills and builds that are meant to do more damage. That is the problem. Yes things need to make sense but saying that it makes sense that rangers can do damage and interruption because high damage disrupts concentration means you'd have to start making a LOT of skills interrupt.
Tactical-Dillusions
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Originally Posted by User Name
Tactical: if that's the way ArenaNet intended it to be they should have removed every other ranger skill in the game...as you'd be a fool to use anything other than Punishing + Savage + Distracting + Preperation..you're doing the most DPS a ranger can do in the least amount of time AND interupting almost all actions..
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The extra DOT gets my thumbs up and enemy enchantments just boost your damage further. With maxed out marksmanship, i found it very effective.
Like i said, i don't play PvP much so from now on i will just observe this thread. At least i have voiced my opinion
User Name
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Originally Posted by FrogDevourer
I surrender. I can't grasp your logic. Would you please be so kind as to explain why Leech Signet is not balanced?
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ya..I can't grasp my logic anymore either. Leech signet isn't unbalanced I meant the Hypothetical skill that Leech Signet is supposed to be countering. Forgive my mistake.
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by KallDrexx
Your two posts contradict each other. There are skills which do MUCH more damage then rangers in the game (not on rangers) but they don't interrupt people. Doing damage has no correlation with interruption in this game, plain and simple.
The point is that that the special skills that interrupt do more damage then the special skills and builds that are meant to do more damage. That is the problem. Yes things need to make sense but saying that it makes sense that rangers can do damage and interruption because high damage disrupts concentration means you'd have to start making a LOT of skills interrupt. |
KallDrexx
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
Well if that's all then it's simple. Again, let's add a taste of that "reality" thing.
Not every shot is perfect, give interrupts a (high) percent chance to actually do the interrupting, maybe tied to expertise. Leave the damage alone. |
THAT is the core of the problem and that is the issue you still have not responded to.
MSecorsky
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Originally Posted by KallDrexx
Lets not add reality. Reality is not balanced and not fun. Balance means when you give something an advantage, there must be a disadvantage to it. The fact that the interrupt build gives a major advantage (interruptions) to regular damage builds means that it should have some disadvantage. Right now it does the damage of regular damage builds (at least) but it also interrupts almost every shot. Thats imbalancing and makes it pointless to go for a damage build (not counting traps here).
THAT is the core of the problem and that is the issue you still have not responded to. |
Distracting Shot - Bow Attack
If Distracting Shot hits, it interrupts target foe's action but deals only 1-13 damage. If the interrupted action was a skill, that skill is disabled for an additional 20 seconds.
Concussion Shot - Bow Attack
If Concussion shot hits while target foe is casting a spell, the spell is interrupted and your target is Dazed for 5-17 seconds. This attack deals only 1-13 damage.
Punishing Shot {Elite} - Bow Attack
If Punishing Shot hits, you strike for +10-18 damage and your target is interrupted
Savage Shot - Bow Attack
If Savage Shot hits, your target's action is interrupted. If that action was a spell, you strike for 13-25 damage
Notice that two of the four disrupting shots do reduced damage, which is already rediculous, and savage only gives you extra if you catch them using a spell. Perhaps I missed something, but with the same enchantments it appears to me that "damage" shots do a bit more damage than interrupts.
Shinsei
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Originally Posted by MSecorsky
Perhaps I missed something, but with the same enchantments it appears to me that "damage" shots do a bit more damage than interrupts.
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Mhydrian
The op is just off. Rangers can shut down one caster whoopidee doo. I suppose there should be NO effective counters to casters in this game. Yet the ease at which casters can shut down and destroy a tank is perfectly fine. An anti-tank build caster will destroy a tank with such ease. Yet no ranger can do this to a caster that well.
Shinsei
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Originally Posted by Mhydrian
The op is just off. Rangers can shut down one caster whoopidee doo. I suppose there should be NO effective counters to casters in this game. Yet the ease at which casters can shut down and destroy a tank is perfectly fine. An anti-tank build caster will destroy a tank with such ease. Yet no ranger can do this to a caster that well.
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It's not about the interruption, that's fine and should stay. It's about the fact that the damage surpasses any ranger attempting to use damage skills.
SwizzlestickSiren
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Originally Posted by Shinsei
Conclusion: The current interruption spike is slightly overpowered damage-wise, as it allows for more damage to be dealt in a shorter period of time as opposed to the ranger skills that are devoted to do damage. The fix to this would be by changing Punishing Shot, Savage Shot and Distracting Shot to ignore (not cancel) any current preperation bonuses. Interrupts are still there and as good as they currently are, however the damage isn't, which means these rangers are no longer killing people, but tactically interrupting them, as they were meant to be.
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Originally Posted by Kalldrexx
Can someone PLEASE explain why interrupts should 1) be spammable and 2) do more damage then regular ranger builds. PLEASE
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User Name
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Originally Posted by SwizzlestickSiren
Rangers are supposed to be versatile, quick, and agile, hence their quicker recharge times for interrupts and the area of expertise. I would understand if skills like barrage didn't cancel all current preparation. But rangers are just fine. And I don't see anything wrong with rangers being able to interrupt while dealing damage. I mean, c'mon, if you think logically, an actual real-life archer shooting at someone would both be distracting and damaging...
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In real life I make 10x the income you make. That is not balanced...that is real life. real life is not balanced, The GAME needs to be balanced...not real.
SwizzlestickSiren
One of the designers' main goals is for this game to be very balanced, and I think they did a great job with that. In no way am I saying that the game should emulate reality, since obviously there aren't casters in reality and such, but to me, it's just a given that an arrow is going to be distracting and damaging at the same time.
KallDrexx
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Originally Posted by SwizzlestickSiren
One of the designers' main goals is for this game to be very balanced, and I think they did a great job with that. In no way am I saying that the game should emulate reality, since obviously there aren't casters in reality and such, but to me, it's just a given that an arrow is going to be distracting and damaging at the same time.
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STOP EQUATING REAL LIFE TO A GAME. The game in NO WAY mimicks real life situations and yo ucan't apply real life logic to here.
Rey Lentless
Preps shouldn't hit if the arrows don't first of all.
I don't like that the dps on the interupts is better than the supposed damage skills either. Perhaps having preps not affect the interupt attacks would fix that.
Or better yet, add an 'aftercast' which is dependent on bow type/tiger's/etc so the 1/2 is just the time to get off the interupt, but the normal time (another 1.5 sec or whatever) between shots is still there. Right now, the dps is much greater on the interupts because you can chain 4 of them together in the same time you could fire one normal damage attack. While a few of them have reduced damage, they still carry the prep damage and the dps is far greater on an interupt string than a damage skill chain.. and that's not right.
I don't like that the dps on the interupts is better than the supposed damage skills either. Perhaps having preps not affect the interupt attacks would fix that.
Or better yet, add an 'aftercast' which is dependent on bow type/tiger's/etc so the 1/2 is just the time to get off the interupt, but the normal time (another 1.5 sec or whatever) between shots is still there. Right now, the dps is much greater on the interupts because you can chain 4 of them together in the same time you could fire one normal damage attack. While a few of them have reduced damage, they still carry the prep damage and the dps is far greater on an interupt string than a damage skill chain.. and that's not right.