Guild Wars Update - Nov 10 and Nov 11

The AI is "smarter" it no longer stands like a morron in a fire ele aoe, however it is bugged causing the enemies to run around like morrons. The chasing after squishy is actually smart, which is the real problem that people have. No longer can they stand there and nuke, now they have to move... like a real battle O-o

No the ai is the same as before. Now its just in a different way. Watch the video of a ranger soling drakes with ignite since all they do is run away yay. If I wanted a "real" battle I would do pvp. If you want a real challenge do pvp. Now it just chaos if anyony uses any type of aoe like even unholy feast/throwdirt/whirling. I mean wtf. Chasing after squishies? Well is this PvP or PvE. At this rate in missions it'll take 2 hours for something that took 45 mins. I don't have the time for this shit and will not touch PvE again till they fix it for good

And to answer this, I quote myself....

and entrophy....

The ugly, thr bad and the good...

Ugly...
I have no inteligent feedback for those solo farmers and or Nukes, etc most effected here. Iv'e never played one, so I wouldn't have a valid opinion anyway.

Bad
I. If I wanted to try the whole solo character type, this update pretty much kills the enthusiasm for it.
II. Furthermore, I was about to create a new PvE character as I've been playing my nec for months and only him, but after the update ...
I play traditional style. Im old fashioned I guess and like it. I can appreciate the runners, and other forms ppl use to advance quickly and dont criticize that or certain other "tricks" usually (Less they effect me , like the solo monk joining a FoW team and delinerately aggroing everything), but now for me to start a new charcater, it could be a month or more to get through Ascension! Thats longer than I'm comfortable with.

Good
Saying the AI is "smarter" isn't accurate but descriptive of the AI avoiding aoe and going after the casters. It was freaky when I first saw it happening, but it has heightened the excitement of facing Foes who don't just stand there and take it like idiots.

New tactics, builds and increased attention to tea formation are all good things IMO

One Question...
Why hasn't the AI Henchies been improved upon. I'm STILL seeing Alyssa and Orion doing bluntly STUPID things.

The economy in game is whacked these days! When (if ever) will this become a priority? The economy is the driving force of solo farming, way overpricing of trade, wherein grinders/farmers have so much GP that its now becoming neccessary to farm to afford the best (or at least decent) eqipment for high level characters.

Nuff said

I like the AI change the way it is now. Enemies don't run at the slightest hint of AoE damage, but they won't stay in it forever. I tried Throw Dirt, Fireball, and Ignite Arrows; the enemies only run when they're getting pelted numerous times by single-shot AoE skills, which seemed perfectly fine. Throw Dirt didn't make them scatter, but numerous exploding arrows did.

And about snares: yeah, enemies can still get out of the AoE in time when crippled. But what about that warrior still hitting the enemy? The fleeing enemy is taking a critical hit EVERY ATTACK WHILE THEY ESCAPE.

The game is far from free. I paid £30 for one copy, £50 for a collectors edition and another £30 for a second account to get around the poxy 4 character slots.
This is the most I have spent on a single game since upgrading to play Half Life 2 and when the mechanics of said game are completely changed, not making the game harder, but simply making it more irritating and time consuming (and getting new characters to lvl 20 and pvp ready was already time consuming enough) to play, i reserve the right to be pissed off about it.

Cool...common sense update but without farming can Anet please justify and explain how on earth I can make 100k for a superior absorption. I suppose I will just have to play for another 800 hours to earn enough money for my 15k armor....

This update is bound to send ecto prices through the roof, which will just lead to more people buying money on Ebay...and I thought Anet was against this practice, but this update seems to show Anet have invested in Ebay shares and are waiting for their windfall.

omg im getting crits. It still slows missions and things down by 1/2. Crits aren't the point. You still take twice as long to kill 1 enemy. They run at the aoe dmg. Ignite still makes them run under tigers fury. Multiply aoe's its fricking 1 dmg...

Oh you have to be extremely lucky getting it dropped, or farm for it.

but apparantly some people on here say this is not a farming game.

I am not saying it is a farming game...I am saying that the only reasonable way to afford the ridiculous prices in the game is to farm.

Without farming in the game the maths is a bit off....if I guess an average of getting 1k per mission and 800g per quest I do in PVE (a generalised figure)...they Anet will need to add 800 000 more missions and 60 000 more quests to the game for me to earn enough money for my fissure armor.

And yes, my maths is very rough...but does get my point across.

what did november 11 update do? did it make the aoe alittle better or mobs still run like a bunch of idiots?

80 thousand not 800, just a little off

Idiots (EDIT / your not the idoit just to clear up any misunderstanding)

now what you do is cast cripple and cast firestorm.

Now watch them crawl their way out of firestorm taking damage, and not giving damage back.

its far to easy to exploit, but it still means its a longer kill in general, i think of it as added grind.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t=79181&page=2

hmm i dont get it if im a e/me how am i surposed to cast cripple? well i can cast mesmer slowdowns

Should we call the police about this person holding you at gunpoint forcing you to get everything that has max stats?

My comment towards Gaile and the post you quoted is that solo play is FUN. That's why we do it. Not to mention it's the only way to make money. I don't care what anyone says you simply CANNOT make any decent cash from playing in groups. Even in SF me and a few guildies were cleaning out the place for 4 hours solid and got nothing but a few k each from it. The drops and loot are simply pathetic. This, along with the ridiculous prices of armour, is what ENCOURAGES farming and solo play.

And yes, with superior runes my full armour, both attribute quests done and my perfect staff, my monk SHOULD be able to solo lvl 20 enemies.
It's what I spent all my time on. Making a more powerful character.
Killing AoE damage off has just made my character useless. It's not just a change in the way I play. They've taken all my hard work and dedication to this game and stripped my character of her usefulness.

Solo play was fun. Now it isn't. People will leave over this, whereas people will not leave if it was put back the way it was. So what do Anet want? To have a game that their customers want to play, or to make the game they want and screw all the players enjoy solo with their complete closedmindedness towards what their players really enjoy.

I'll wait and see what happens, but this will be the last straw for many players until Anet get a grip on how to keep 2 factions of customers happy.
They chose to make a game of 2 halves, yet they can't seem to manage that properly at all.

So i'll say in closing. Anet have (had) a large dedicated PvE following for this game. Not everyone plays PvP the same way a lot of people bought HL2 but have never touched Counterstrike Source.
People like playing the PvE misions and quests and we'd keep playing it the way it was over and over as it was FUN. Take the fun away and you've got nothing but the hardcore nerds left switching builds every 5 minutes and doing little or no actual exploration of the game world 'cos it now takes 3 times as long to get from A - B.
Casual gamers need a place in this game too for it to succeed and this update has made a LARGE group of players feel completely unwelcome.

The game had choice. If I wanted people running out of my nukes and having to use snares and slow spells, i'd play PvP. I play PvE because it's fun, relaxing and enjoyable, when I come home from a day's work and just want something non too taxing to entertain me for a few hours.
I don't have time to sit in a mission outpost for an hour making builds and number crunching with strangers just to get to the next bit.

Besides, it's your PvE customers that'll be buying the expansion (or would have been). So Anet can carry on nerfing solo and buggering how PvE works, but it'll be us laughing when nobody bothers with expansion because we can't be certain the game we love won't be hamfistedly altered because Anet simply don't like the way we play it.

^^^ Well said.

Oh really. I solo farmed once, to see if I could come up with a build for my E/Mo. I have made close to 2 million gold by playing in groups, through drops. Most of it was from doing orozar over and over again with EIGHT MAN teams.

So you say that everyone should has a Mo character. But what about ppl who don't wanna play with monk or warrior ? I have Ranger and it was hard for me to get a farm party or solo the Elona's Reach (or somewhere else).I did all the stuff you did (attribute quests etc.) and couldn't solo anywhere. I was trying to lvl up my lvl 18 monk char but i changed my mind after the update. And i get pleasure when i play with my ranger char and get bored when i play with Monk or Warrior. Equalling something , yes sometimes it has minus from things, should be OK for each side. Do not think for only yourself.

So by this, some how ele's should be nerfed until no one uses fire?
So by this, monks shouldn't be using healing runes or protection? NERF THEM THEN
God, you are so arrogant. By the way you talk, you only pvp, seriously DOUBT someone malestorms monsters to death in PVE and some how tridents a whole group at once.

I defy to use the term 'AI' for what this is.

Grunts ducking for cover and lobbing grenades at me in Half Life is AI.
Anarki rocket jumping to beat me to the railgun on DM6 on Quake 3. THAT'S AI.

Monsters who simply get a 'run' command whenever they get hit by AoE damage is NOT AI. There's no 'run to', for 'how long' or anything. They don't react with intelligence in any way whatsoever. If I'm being battered to death by 10 trolls and juuuust about to die, one shot of balths and they all go running off when they're about to kill me is NOT AI.

It's nothing but a cheap and shockingly lazy fix. There's better 'AI' code for the ball in Arkanoid than on the monster mobs in this game.
It's not even so much that it's meant to hit the solo farmers. I mean was there any uproar like this with previous skills nerfs? No. Because it didn't affect the rest of the game so dramatically. But if this is the quality of 'update' we're going to be getting from here on in, I can promise Anet that they won't be getting any more of my money. I don't own a crop farm and have no use whatsoever for shit.

Well said...no one is forcing anyone to have perfect items...but getting the best in the pve game is part of every mmorp game. I have played through the game with all primary classes, have everything unlocked and am rank 6. Farming was what kept my interest in the game until the new expansion.

The guild I am in is rank 159 and 2 guildies have left over the update and I know of 12 more people who have now quit playing until the expansion. I know I can still solo underworld as a ne/mo, but don't want to delete any of my characters to do so.

Who said that? Nobody. This update makes the elements balanced. A lot of people don't understand this because of how it was before. Just because fire isn't OMGWTFPWNing anymore doesn't mean it sucks. It means it is on a level with the other elements!

My first (and possibly still fave) character is a Ranger (see my title )

Then I made a tank. I caught wind of monk farming and it being the most efficient way to get money, so I made one. Don't blame me for putting the effort in and making one. It's not like anyone couldn't do it. If you put the effort in, you reap the results, simple as that. If you simply don't want a monk, then that's your choice.
Each character has their ups and downs. You could have a necro but not be able to run anywhere for example

Anyway I don't just farm bucketloads of cash for myself. I've bought loads of guildies materials for 15k armour, sorted out droks armour and weapons for them and given them a headstart and the inclination to keep playing to reach the mighty 15k or fissure armours (as most experienced solo players have done). I now cannot do that. What I farm now will be for me and me alone as it's going to be hell to do it.
Selfish play encouraged by farming and solo nerfs which will mean I can't help guildies any more like i used to without screwing my own chances of a set of fissure so it'll happen less, newer players will get bored having bugger all and no way to get anything half decent and unless they get into PvP (which most of my guild haven't) they'll eventually just stop playing and move onto something more accessible.

FIRE does suck now. Would not touch it for the world. my meteor shower is usless. Now we have echo nukers echoing meteor FTW. really think. Echoing metoer its 30 energy of exhaustion equal to one meteor shower yeah great job. Air is used in pvp more often. There is earth spiking. It was perfectly fine. This is not an update to ai it is a farming nerf. Water has specific uses. Ele's have been nerfed hard and if you can't see that well then there's really no point.

I'm sorry but I think this should have been done...ummm, let's say...when the game was released? You don't just start from scratch nearly a year after release and redo the whole thing.

I agree with Memphis (the post before his most recent)

Someone already has said, monsters get enraged when you hurt them, therefore they aren't gonna be running like wussies after 2 seconds, 3 seconds, one hour. period.

Henchies were fine. Prior to "AI" downdate

A whole skill set of a class (a skill set supposed to be the strongest of them all) being nerfed to utter worthless use.

Farming apparently still possible (LOL). Smitting has to be addressed DIRECTLY not by changing the entire game around it.

I can't believe the mistake that has been made. It needs to be reverted back. Thats it.

The Arguements of it being realistic is still weak, give it up.
The Arguements of PVE is ok now because its like PVP especially coming from PVP-only players IS also weak and not valid. (Not to mention people who never played a elementalist like to say its great or about time. BS...)
This is PvE only issue, LEAVE PvP out of it. There is no monster AI in PvE, Don't even start with henchies, they are supposed to be for PvE missions anyway.
I was...looking forward to the expansion, I, like many others, Don't feel the same anymore. More addressing of what we farm instead how we farm is what we need. ArenaNet I trust, will do the correct thing. I hope.

Lol balanced, so now the meteor show skill should be half effective?
How bout water? Can it nuke monsters too? I didn't think so. Don't even bother with lightning.

Fire is Nuke, You nuke with Fire, and Guess what, You can't nuke anymore with fire. Oh, ok without wasting energy for no reason but because of a poor update.
Elementalists already have the worst armor in game. Why not make them a Necro minion tool.

Fire is Damage to groups (THAT DON'T MOVE)

Water is snare, slow things down, harass movement and with one skill you can harass a caster until he moves instinctly. (yeah thats useful in pve, yeah thats ubber powerful)

Air/lightning is single target damage, its basically anti-warrior weakness knockdowns, but its all vs single targets. (it has and will always pretty much suck in pve because of its single target limits.)

Earth is their defensive line, i would actually dare to say its overpowered, Defense AND armor ignoring offense? (Something fishy there, but forget about that. NERF FIRE!)

So wheres the balance here
I thought the most basic and normal idea of an elementalist or 100% caster is supposed to be all offensive and no defense? Well they have the defense correct, but now the offensive is broken in pve. PVP doesn't relate to this, its human vs human (last I checked we arn't monsters).

Already said covered monks:
"Smitting has to be addressed DIRECTLY not by changing the entire game around it."

What is the big deal with farming? I have completed the game, and on top of that i live in a different time zone to all my guildies bar 1. When my guildies are on i play with them, either helping lower lvls progress or SF/ ToA runs. When there is no-one on i farm - its fun, and its the only thing that keeps me playing the game for more than 5-6 hrs a week. I sell everything to the trader ( i cant be doing WTS in LA for hrs on end) and once i have enough gold i go buy an ecto and a shard. If i want fissure armour (which i do) farming is the easiest way to get it. If any of my guildies need gold/materials for armour i can help them out....thru farming. Without solo farming i cannot aim for fissure armour ( unless i'm willing to wait a year for it - which i'm not) without fissure armour to aim for i have no reason to play the game other than a few hrs a week with guildies until the expansion comes out. On top of that, no matter how many times u do it, it still puts a smile on yr face wen a gold drops - even if u know its gonna be a crap one.

+Armor
Armor of Earth [Earth]
Kinetic Armor [Earth]
Obsidian Flesh [Earth]
Ward Against Elements [Earth]
Armor of Frost [Water]
Armor of Mist [Water]
Ward Against Harm [Water]

Boosting Evading/Blocking & Enemy Miss
Blinding Flash [Air]
Glimmering Mark [Air]
Eruption [Earth]
Magnetic Aura [Earth]
Ward Against Melee [Earth]
Blurred Vision [Water]
Mist Form [Water]
Swirling Aura [Water]

Knockdowns & Snares
Lightning Surge [Air]
Mind Shock [Air]
Shock [Air]
Thunderclap [Air]
Whirlwind [Air]
Earthquake [Earth]
Grasping Earth [Earth]
Iron Mist [Earth]
Ward Against Foes [Earth]
Deep Freeze [Water]
Frozen Burst [Water]
Ice Prison [Water]
Ice Spikes [Water]
Mind Freeze [Water]
Shard Storm [Water]
Water Trident [Water]


So clearly, Elementalists have A LOT of defensive capabilities. A lot more than my Mesmer has!

So, obviously, your issue isn't that Elementalists have no defensive capabilities, you're just upset that Fire Magic doesn't do everything. Well, my Mesmer can't do everything available to it at once. I don't think a Monk can be an effective party Healer & Protector and Smite all at once. I don't think Necros can be everything available to them all at once. I don't think Rangers can be effective Spikers, Trappers, and Beastmasters all in one.

So what makes you so special that Fire Magic should be good at everything? Guild Wars doesn't work that way. Think outside the box, and you'll be better for it.


edit: after making this post, I'll be changing my Me/Mo to a Me/E. I didn't realize that such defenses were available to them. God they rock o.o;

Meteor shower isn't the only thing with AOE.

Of course, the newb fire eles are going to complain. I bought my fire ele PvE toon (no, not E/Me) and guess what? I don't notice a major change. I'm just less spam and actually TIME my attacks as if it were PvP.

Only noobs complain about the new updates. The rest of us who actually think for themselves and don't use cookie cutter builds just shrug.

KK. I'm not intending to go headlong hammer and tongs into this, however I just feel the following text needs to be addressed. Passed to me by a Guildie (i'm sure it's a forum post from somewhere)


Now I stress that this is purely my opinion. But that is THE most absolute load of (can i swear here?) B*LL*CKS I have ever read.

Yes Gaille, we should be able to farm UW, we DO farm UW. You want to know why? You really can't figure this out for yourself? Because Ectoplasm costs sixteen thousand gold A PIECE and we need NINETY of it for our Fissure armour.
How many have been into UW in a full party of 8 and come out of it with a decent amount of anything but Demonic remains? I'll bet it's very very few, or more likely nobody.
In 45 solid minutes of 2 or 3 people killing things on average you leave with 1 ecto each. So you want me to split those kind of drops with SEVEN other people? How about no?
It's an absolutely ridiculous target to set, yet you query the ridiculousness of 1 person going to all the effort to be able to get the stuff. Go to dictionary.com and type LOGIC for crying out loud.

And as for all this 'AI improvement' and 'intelligent enemies'. It's nothing but a shameworthy cover-up for what is nothing more than a blatent solo/farming nerf. Where is the AI? There is no bloody AI. They just run off randomly. Where the hell is the 'intelligence' there? To me a lvl 28 enemy would be showing more intelligence by actually trying to kill me rather than running off like a kicked puppy whenever they get a whiff of Balths Aura.
All that was done was to make mobs run from AoE. Nothing more whatsoever. They run and come back. Run and come back. AI my arse.

You've completely reworked the mechanics of your own game without so much as hint to your customers that were already enjoying it the way it was. THEN you claim it's to 'improve mob difficulty'.
Well you certainly did that. Because now PvE battles are nothing more than disorganised chaos when it comes to AoE use.
I'm sorry, but there is no way in the bowels of hell that this update has been sufficeintly tested with the bugs and problems it has brought along with it.
You've let down a substantial number of your consumer base and your only reaction is to stand firm and attempt some self satisfied humour while outright lying to each and every one of us over the entire point of this update.
I'm now not only let down by this, I'm downright offended.

I thought Anet listened to it's customers. Though after reading the self satisfied 'we know better than you' spouting quoted above I'm far from sure of that.
It's even admitted that the AI change didn't work in testing and there's even use of the word many of have used to describe it - broken

So there was either a broken and flawed patch for the AI made (i've played this game for months I know you guys are better than this, come on), or the 'AI' change is a hamfisted coverup while you continue to ruthlessly cut off solo players because they aren't liked. So I conclude that Anet are either utterly incompetant, or complete liars.

I'm reserving final judgement as I'm still hoping to hell that this will be fixed. Either take the AI change out and bring it back when it's fixed, properly coded and tested, or lose customers. It's as simple as that.
I want the game I loved back and spent my time and money on. Please don't kick me and others like me away from something we have grown to love and enjoy simply because our method of play doesn't conform to your own ideals.
Yes it's your game, but we're the one's playing it.

I realised that seems like i'm replying to a post that wasn't even posted here, but I needed that off my chest and that's how it came out. *shrug* Make of it what you will

Interestingly I knew when I posted that I should have included the rest of my previous one, as I saw this coming. The rest of it continued with...

Furthermore, your argument is completely unfounded. You say "you're just upset that Fire Magic doesn't do everything." No I wasn't before this, but you're damn skippy I am now. Especially since you laid it out so clearly. I see not one skill listed in your ever so prudent list of warding, armor, and snaring capabilities that utilizes the fire attribute. So why not just eradicate it altogether since it bothers you so much that I choose to use fire as opposed to what you do.

Being a smart aleck does NOT make your point any more well-received. I can agree to disagree with you without being a jackass and insinuating that you think you are more special than me as you tried to do. That's never what I said and you know it. I made a suggestion. If you don't like it you can voice your opinion without making vain attempts to flame.

here is the main difference between newbs and pros
newbs whine about the update
pros adjust and make new builds and move on with life

Ok, my apologies for the 'tone' of my previous post. ('tone' is the best word I can come up with to describe it)

That's because Fire is a damage-focused attribute. You don't see many Marksmanship skills boasting tons of defense for Rangers. They're mostly Expertise and Wilderness Survival (never played an R, so I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.) Domination Magic for my Mesmer offers just about no defense skills. I have to go to Illusion (snares) or Inspiration (+armor) for that.

Those are things that have to be adapted to. If I find my Mesmer is being hurt a lot, I'll drop a few points out of Domination, and put some in Inspiration, and pack Physical Resistance. I'm not trying to sound condescending or arrogant, but is it really impossible to set Fire Magic at 14 instead of 16 and then put some points in Air for Whirlwind? or Earth for some Armors? or Water for some snares?

I know the tone of some of us 'pro-patch' folks has sounded like everyone needs to abandon the Fire attribute, but you shouldn't have to, and you don't. But you might need to start combining Fire with something else. Heck, before the 'fix' last night, Lava Font was a guaranteed monster repellant!

Fire isn't useless now. I don't think it's going to be as popular as it was, but since when did the popularity of something determine it's true effectiveness?

(If this post carries any kind of arrogant or condescending tones, I apologize.)

Bottom Line:

All things in nature adapt or die out.

All players in GW will have to adapt or drop out.

Which company in their right minds would encourage such a major selection process in their own community?
Are server costs running too high?

I'm in a guild consisting of a bunch of older players aged 24-32, and younger ones. While the older ones don't really care the youger ones 13-18 feel that something is lost to them. Something very powerful: HOPE. They aspired to be equiped with good looking armor, have gold, good items, and most of all they really liked the feeling of being able to engage multiple enemies at once sucessfully.

The game now does the same thing they hate about their real life. Multiple "enemies" bullying them around, they might take down one, but not all.

They also liked the feeling of sucess that is rewarded to them upon the completion of each quest. [Read Gamedesigners 1x1]
They lost that as well. We can't send them into battle with some advice. We have to drag them through it in some new unnerving process.

They were never interested in PvP.
They are not carved for PvP
They can NOT YET take the frustration level of loosing over and over.

The ridicule of the good players is the sadest thing I see in this forum and in the game. If this does not stop AT ONCE, it will tear the community apart.
The common player is very bad, he wants fun more that he wants challenge.

If the fissure and UW enemies behaved like that it would be ok, but if you confront all people with it it's too unfair.

I also say "so what if everybody has 2 million gold and all the best items". In real life we all want the MTV cribs, the PimpMyRide cars, the Paris Hilton credit limit BUT NOT A SINGLE PERSON HERE WILL HAVE IT. [Actually, if you are the son of some millionaire reading this ask daddy who he "farmed" for money].
GW was the place where some had the idea that through mindless repetetive timeconsuming work we could all get rich.
This dream has been taken.

This dream is often considered the American one, now removed by some american game designers. Quite a piece of work.

my advice:
let people have superstupid enemies.
let all people have an easy way to strive for vanity.

stop listening to PvE players. They always stress the fact that they do not care about the update. BUT WHY ARE YOU NOT CARING ABOUT FELLOW PLAYERS. Care about the weak players, if you won't even help them at least have PvE environment THEIR way, while you retreat to your ivory towers.

In 14 days from now I see
One economy based on money = Low level players, cr**py items
One economy based on ecto shard and rubies, the "pros" will stick to that.

It's sad that this is the truth for so many people. Myself included.

If I by the new version, will the development on it be as erratic as this? I don't know if I want to pay for a game that is going to be unable to provide consistant gameplay.

I'd like to point out to all Elems out there who actually like this update.
My guild ran Thunderhead and a few other areas last night, leaving Elementalists out of the equation completely. People use Fire because it's fun. Air spiking just doesn't work in PvE as you have so much more health to get through on enemies than you do in PvP. That's why Meteor and Firestorm gets used. It doesn't get used in PvP as your opponents don't have 5 times your health and do 6 times the melee damage you do.

So anyway, we ditched Elems all together and simply took 4 Tanks 2 Monks, a Ranger and a Mesmer. And we breezed through the whole thing.
Sure we could have had a water Elem and an Earth elem doing their bit, but why bother when they don't do anywhere near the damage Fire does. Plus the 2 tanks could hold all the aggro without nukes dispersing the mobs into a Benny Hill sketch.

So people will find a way to play around this so called AI improvement. And unfortunately, one if those first ways I found was to leave poor Elems out of the equation altogether. Hey I like my elem, but if she's just gonna be a hinderance people aren't going to want her, I'm not going to want to play her and I wouldn't want anyone else's in the group either.

How's that for character balance?