Guild Wars Update - Nov 10 and Nov 11

Originally Posted by entropy

PvE is boring as hell.

Originally Posted by Caleb the pontiff

This update creates chaos in normal fight situations. In FoW, the creatures run around randomly after being attacked, and no longer aggro anything like they did previously.

Originally Posted by Jczech

I figured this would have been posted already, but apparantly I was wrong. If it has and I've missed it, let me know.

So, Gaile was in Lion's Arch international district 1 on Friday, before they released the second patch to fix bugs. She had a bit to say on the latest hot topic (though I didn't get as many screenshots as I would have liked, I assumed someone else would, plus I left after she started repeating things for those who found her later) If anyone has a more complete record of what she said, it would be appreciated. That being said, here's my small collection of compiled text...
So what does this mean? The AI improvements are comming. For those who think things are hard now, get out now! It's also apparant they are not against honest farming (I remember it was mentioned somewhere), but rather against solo farming. If they could program it now, the AI would make PvE just as hard as PvP. It also seems like the economy as people know it is probably going to change as well.

So, thoughts on where the game is headed?

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

Is that a GM?
I've not seen green type very often, just guild announcements when I log in.
I personally don't agree with alot he says, but that's neither here nor there.
I would like him to be on this forum though....

Originally Posted by Crotalus

She is ArenaNet's Community Relations Manager. She is the closest you will get to the developers of Guild Wars.

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

I notice however that the job of Fire "nukes" in PvE is now to change the direction of the enemy. Really, I think this AI will be changed again; it's too unbalanced and leaves alot of room for exploitation.

It seems that with 2 fire elementalists, or 2 ranger spikers, or even with 2 smiting monks, you could keep the enemy perpetually moving just with them. All you would really need to do then is add 6 warriors with sprint You wouldn't need any healers, everything would be afraid of you ^^

They'll probably improve the AI, but untill then, why not take advantage of it?

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Well, I disagree, and personally I think you've just disqualified yourself from further complaining.
I haven't been to FoW, but I don't recognize that from Grenths or from the Shiverpeaks or from the Desert. They run, and occasionally one gets confused after running into an object (e.g. a wall) and just stands around, but most of the time the mobs get back to fighting. But, like I said, I haven't been to FoW.
If, however, you by chaos mean that it's no longer possible to send forward a warrior, let him aggro, then bomb the area around the warrior in complete safety, then yes, that's true - the mobs will run around, and usually target casters now. The AI is still weak, but IMO the earlier behavior was outright dumb, and the tactic of drawing & holding aggro with a warrior was basically exploiting poor AI.

What about you other PvE'ers (ie not you farmers, and not you people who hate PvE)? Why don't you like the patch? I'm genuinely curious, because personally I find the fights much more hectic and exciting now. And harder too, for that matter.

Originally Posted by entropy

How have I disqulified myself from complaining. I paid my $50 for this game as did other people. I already explained why I do it. Just read them for once. By chaos I mean the "bugs". If anet is going to release a "patch" that fixes something then it should "fix" it and not create a need for more "patches". Exploiting poor ai? So were we supposed to let the ele aggro them and then make sure we all got targeted so we could have so more "fun"?

Originally Posted by entropy

How have I disqulified myself from complaining.

Originally Posted by entropy

PvE is boring as hell. They made it so that the quickest way to unlock skills was by PvE because faction still takes a while to learn. PvE is not fun because the storyline is boring, there are no surprises, and that its just boring after beating the game. I bought this game for PvP

Originally Posted by Gaile

Hey, there.

First of all, let's clear something up: Defensive? Moi? Nah. If I was defensive I would have spent today hiding under my desk. I'd rather head into LA and talk to the players. I know I saw some of you there; thanks for stopping by. It was a good chat, even if the window scrolled so quickly I couldn't keep up. (Sorry!) Yes, there were a number of upset people. I think a lot of us can remember the same sort of reaction in other titles with their “Patch Days.” But the difference is, we understand and we are listening. And we'll be the first to admit that in addition to changing the game in ways that you may not have expected, we changed the game in ways that we didn't expect either, with adding a few bugs.

Can't remember all I said, but here in greater detail is what I'd like to say now:

Guild Wars has had a bit of a disconnect between the two forms of gameplay: PvP and PvE. What works beautifully in PvP may not work well in PvE, and vice versa. In part, that is ok, but it has also been not ok, because there should be a form of seamlessness between the two gameplay choices, so that what you use in one is also useful in the other. Also, there were problems with the monster and henchman AI. So, in order to bring the game back to more of a shared-experience feeling, rather than a feeling of having two entirely separate and different games, we undertook the first of a few changes: We improved the monster and henchman AI. Henchmen are more intelligent and will do things that you need them to do to get the job done. In other words, they will be more like human players. Likewise, monsters will be given a swift kick in the behi... excuse me.. will be given an similar increase in intelligence, too. Where before they stood stupidly by as Fire Storm rained death and destruction upon them, now, they might actually make a defensive move and, you know, get out of the spell effect!

For after all, monsters shouldn't be stupid. While they may never match a human player in intelligence, they should be clever and canny and crafty in figuring out how to win. If you've ever played with a kitten, you know that animals are not stupid. They assess their opponent -- even if it's just a catnip mouse. They weigh when to scratch or bite, when to pounce, and if you suddenly make ferocious noices that makes the kitten sense peril, the kitten even knows when to back away and reappraise the situation. Animals have a sense of self-preservation equal to or greater than that of humans.

The improvement to the AI will help make the monsters more "realistic," I guess you could say. It will make them more worthy opponents. Some players don't like that. They prefer the "play with one hand, eat a pizza with the other, while watching TV and talking on the phone." Or they prefer being able to solo the Underworld without breaking a sweat. And come on, guys, no one should be soloing the Underworld! It makes no sense at all, and we know it and we accept full responsibility for the fact that it was possible when it never should have been. Things were imbalanced. We've made a move towards putting them back into balance and giving greater valuation to foes of all kinds: Undead, White Mantle, Charr, and all. As monsters improve in intelligence, it allows us to improve skills so that skills that were never used in PvP will be more viable against both players and monsters. It allows us to make skills that were once used exclusively in PvP more appropriate for PvE as well.

A substantial number of people have been testing these changes for several weeks. But none of us really caught the fact that some of what we were doing wasn't quite right, and that some was, in fact, quite broken. Monster run-away was a selected, intentional mechanic. However, having them run away in a Dance Macabre, "like chickens with their heads cut off," wasn't on the To Do List. We made the change purposely because the feedback we got was that monsters were too stupid -- we knew that was true. But the change options were (1) have monsters run out of the AOE and stand on the edge in order to attack again, or (2) have them run away without the turn-and-fire, making them harder to track down and kill. We are trying for greater variety of reactions and certainly believe the animations were improveable over what we had last night.

Guild Wars had a few design issues concerning AI, and we've taken and will continue to take steps to correct that. The changes that we make may affect how you play, or perhaps even what you play. I wouldn't rush out to change every one of your characters because we're still making adjustments. And do be assured that we will be monitoring the changes to make sure that we don't change needlessly, and to make sure that what we do doesn't make a skill, or an entire skill line, useless. If a particular skill has been overly affected by the recent updates, we'll make amends by correcting that skill. If you have a case to state, state it on that: "This skill has suffered from the changes and should be improved and here’s what I’ve experienced." Not “Roll back the update,” or “I’m going to play some other game.” Help us with good analysis and with comments of a constructive nature. And watch for positive changes in the future.
__________________
Gaile Gray
Community Relations Manager
ArenaNet
www.guildwars.com

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

This is how:

Why the hell are you playing a game you hate, and why the hell should we who DON'T hate it care what you think, when all you want is for it to go away as quickly as possible?
Your idea of good PvE is a UAE button.

Originally Posted by Dametrus

Monsters get hit once or twice and scatter like chickens with their heads cut off.

Originally Posted by entropy

Btw PvE has just been nerfed thats what I was complaining about. Ranger spike is in some senses overpowered but nowadays the good teams can handle good ranger spike.

Originally Posted by calamitykell

From what I understand, they no longer run endless until they hit a wall. They'll move out of the AoE then continue with their AI, I believe.



And the good PvE'ers can handle the update.

Next!

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

(at entropy)

Because you should... It is a game. They are providing you with countless hours of entertainment for a very low price (if you've played as much as I do, then for $50 GW costs you like 20 cents an hour). They are not in your debt. You are in theirs. You haven't done anything for them. Accept it cause it is a game that you should be playing for fun.

Originally Posted by GWGuru

Peter McNeily had absolutely no chance at beating Mike Tyson but he still stepped into the ring and gave it a shot. Acting in a realistic way is completely different than giving up because you think you can't win. Being outnumbered doesn't mean you have to run....having brimstone and fire rained down upon you from the sky is a pretty valid reason to move out of the way...and even simplistic AI should follow at least basic natural animalistic instincts like moving out of the way of a fire shower. Any argument to the contrary simply exposes you for the weak mindless gameplay you enjoy.

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

(at entropy)

Because you should... It is a game. They are providing you with countless hours of entertainment for a very low price (if you've played as much as I do, then for $50 GW costs you like 20 cents an hour). They are not in your debt. You are in theirs. You haven't done anything for them. Accept it cause it is a game that you should be playing for fun.

Originally Posted by Jczech

So, Gaile was in Lion's Arch international district 1 on Friday, before they released the second patch to fix bugs. She had a bit to say on the latest hot topic


So what does this mean? The AI improvements are comming. For those who think things are hard now, get out now! It's also apparant they are not against honest farming (I remember it was mentioned somewhere), but rather against solo farming. If they could program it now, the AI would make PvE just as hard as PvP. It also seems like the economy as people know it is probably going to change as well.

So, thoughts on where the game is headed?

Originally Posted by Goldencat

So, hypothetically, if a police officer lands a flying kick to your crotch from out of the blue, you should accept it and move on because "you are in their debt"?

We haven't done anything for them? Oh, yeah, except for the small fact that without us they wouldn't have JOBS.

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

is the our personal customer rep for the entire GW world. being a customer rep myself you have to deliever some news your customer may not like but you can always get them to see why. also i can tell you that pissing off your customer rep will sever your link of getting any help at all. call your local phone company and just start cursing them out for nothing. you will most likely not get want you wanted and they can "make up" anything they want to get you off the phone and on to the next call with someone that isn't an a-hole.

Originally Posted by Memphis

How can you attack and talk down to your own game community in this way?

Originally Posted by entropy

I hate PvE. Btw PvE has just been nerfed thats what I was complaining about.

Originally Posted by Memphis

I've seen plenty of developers address communities about their games and I have never seen such pompous self rightious crap come from one person.
How can you attack and talk down to your own game community in this way? It's absolutely shocking behaviour from someone who needs respect from the people they are addressing.

Originally Posted by calamitykell

You're acting like demanding, spoiled, childish brats.

Originally Posted by Memphis

Straight down the shitter IMO.

I've seen plenty of developers address communities about their games and I have never seen such pompous self rightious crap come from one person.
How can you attack and talk down to your own game community in this way? It's absolutely shocking behaviour from someone who needs respect from the people they are addressing.

There is absolute uproar over this and all we get in response is this socially inept mouthpiece TELLING us what we want from our games.

Yes Gaile, people do eat, drink, smoke and maybe even scratch their arse while playing games. Why is that a problem to you? You've mentioned eating whilst playing twice now. Is food a problem for you too? Are you annorexic or something?

Games are a pastime and not a full time job where both my hands need to be at the keyboard constantly for hours on end. This is my hobby. I play because it's enjoyable. I DO NOT want to be staring into a screen constantly and concentrating so hard my eyes bleed.
If you're so bleedin' dedicated to things being done right, then why not get yourself some proper training on how to address and converse with customers? Leave your PvP Mesmer alone for 2 minutes, pick up a dictionary and learn the real meaning of the word Empathy. It does not mean drivel on about your own ideals and telling others what they want like a complete obnoxious prat. You have successfully severed an entire community by incompetently releasing a patch (not an update I stress, a patch) to 'fix' one issue you didn't like, whilst inadvertantly introducing an entirely new problem altogether without even contemplating the repercussions. *Golf claps*

What cracks me up is that they're STILL hiding behind the AI issue regarding the eradication of solo play. Just admit outright you hate solo players and they aren't welcome in the game. Add the damn party cap for leaving areas and show a bit of bottle if you're so damn sure what we want. Stop letting people think it's all ok then nerf the shit out everything with no word of warning when nobody's looking. Utter, utter cowardess.

This 'AI' won't be updated to a respectable level any time soon. Simply because AI altering was not the aim of this update. I'm willing to wager that your AI won't be up to the standard of even a 10 year old games such as Half Life before the next expansion.

You've screwed a substantial number of your fanbase, you've screwed your game and you've screwed yourselves. I do admittedly hope this is sorted, as I've said before, as I've previously LOVED this game and I damn well want to keep playing it, but I'm not having your ideals of how I should play rammed up my arse every few months as you see fit.

Should the game eventually fail, I will laugh at your lose, yet mourn for what once was the best damn game I've played in years.

Originally Posted by Daegul Mistweaver

Or this nonsense:


"Gaile Grey: Our fault and we're really sorry" - Yea, can't get much more pompous...she's practically forcing you to your knees there.

Originally Posted by Dametrus

And as I have read, there are plenty of skills that make this happen including ignite arrows (which really does not seem right). Now, saying most of this is correct.

Originally Posted by Memphis

You're a customer rep? I'm not gonna start on you in any way here, however I will say that if that's your attitude towards customers.... well crikey.

As a company customer representative it's exactly your job to deal with and control any shit I as a customer may choose to throw at you. If I have a problem with the service you provide it's my god given right to call you up and shout you into the ground as much as I damn well please because it's YOUR JOB to address my problem and try to make me happy and keep my custom.

The very reason a customer reps and business retention departments exist is because getting new customers ALWAYS costs more than keeping existing ones. Yet if I were to call you and complain, you'd 'sever my link' to the only available outlet I have to complain to?

I've worked in customer service for over 7 years and I can tell you that If I once had the attitude you've displayed here, I certainly wouldn't have been able to post 'over 7 years' in this sentence.

Originally Posted by Memphis

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Look at how you and your ilk are behaving.

That's how they can talk down to you. You're acting like demanding, spoiled, childish brats.

Originally Posted by Memphis

Not at all. I'm excercising my right as a consumer to have an open opinion on a product. Their product was flawed. That's their fault, not mine. Their AI update was a screw up to fix a previous flaw and introduced a whole new one and people are complaining. In response to this I don't need the very person who is meant to be addressing my complaint telling me I'm not supposed to eat a cheese sandwich at my PC.

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

OK, so we have upset farmers and we have people who don't want to play the PvE at all and just want to get through it as quickly as possible.

Do we have any actual PvE'ers complaining?
As in people who play PvE? Because it's fun?

Anyone?

Originally Posted by Memphis

You're a customer rep? I'm not gonna start on you in any way here, however I will say that if that's your attitude towards customers.... well crikey.

As a company customer representative it's exactly your job to deal with and control any shit I as a customer may choose to throw at you. If I have a problem with the service you provide it's my god given right to call you up and shout you into the ground as much as I damn well please because it's YOUR JOB to address my problem and try to make me happy and keep my custom.

The very reason a customer reps and business retention departments exist is because getting new customers ALWAYS costs more than keeping existing ones. Yet if I were to call you and complain, you'd 'sever my link' to the only available outlet I have to complain to?

I've worked in customer service for over 7 years and I can tell you that If I once had the attitude you've displayed here, I certainly wouldn't have been able to post 'over 7 years' in this sentence.

Originally Posted by Feminist Terrorist

Yes, and I'm NOT happy. I play only PvE, and don't give a flying rat's behind about PvP. If I wanted to play in a PvP style, I would, but I don't. I don't care what farmers are doing, since it doesn't affect me directly. What I want is my fun and enjoyment back. I want to enjoy my ele again. I want to be able to play my ranger without worrying whether she's been nerfed or not. I want to be able to play like I did before without having to revamp my builds and do extensive testing to see what works and what doesn't.

I almost didn't play last night because I was literally dreading trying to find a new mix of skills that wouldn't jeopardize my team mates and cause complete chaos on the battlefield. How sad is that? Where's the fun in that? Gone, thanks to Anet.

Originally Posted by calamitykell

How many PvE'ers were unaware that 'game content may change'?

Is this the first online game you've ever played?

(No sarcasm, so slight intended. Honest questions.)