Chapter 2, possible problems/disapointments

Hi all,

although im greatly looking forward to chapter 2, I'm also a bit worried about it. Anet said that ppl who don't buy chapter 2 won't have any disadvantage over ppl who will buy it. This could mean a number of things: Level 20 will stay the highest level, there will not be better armor/items, new skills won't be much different than the current skills. Appart from having new (better looking) armor, items and new area's, what will be the new challange? Of course it's nice to have new missions and all, but I would also like to improve my characters. If non-buyers wil not be disadvanted, how am I supposed to do this? Same is with enemies, if level 20 stayes maximum on players, enemies probably won't be stronger than level 31 (Glint, currently the strongest) or they'll be impossible to beat. One way to solve these problems could be this: Characters who have exceeded level 20 can't take part in missions/quests from chapter 1. Drawback however is that you can't help your guildmates on a chapter 1 mission. Another option would be that if u go to a chapter 1 town, you automaticly go back to being level 20, as soon as you move back to a chapter 2 town, you're back at the level you were when you left. This however doesn't solve the armor/item problem. I also wonder how all these things will affect PvP, if there's one place where ppl should't have advantages over other players, it's there. Probably Anet will come with good ways to make chapter 2 both very challenging and honest, however it would be a good thing if they announce how they'll solve (some of) the problems I've mentioned. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's worried about it.

Well its been kinda... 95% certain since the game came out that the level cap was gonna stay. I'm pretty sure they'll do a better job of high-end challenging pve than they did with Sorrows Furnace... i hope.

I am more worry about the gold problem... or Rich getting Richer, and those who don't play as much is left at bottom.

If you want to spend your time pointlessly leveling, go play WoW. Raising the level cap would kill the concept of GW - that you don't have to spend your life playing to compete effectively against others in pvp.

Now.. as to the job that ANet has done so far on making this a game for the casual gamer... *shrug*
*coughbullsh!tcough*

actually.. I do toy with the idea of raising the level cap up to 40 before... but before you get your oils and match ready, read on. Level 40 would be the same as lv 20. The same time and experience to go from 1 level , is not two. So is the rewards and stuff gain. (so instead of gaining 10 attribut points to spend, you get 5 for each level, etc) The argument there is that it give you a more sense of accomplishment, like you are getting stronger faster. so Yah on lv 40!

So.. what would be the point in coding all that again? They could make the cap 1000 and just as easy to get to, and it wouldn't satisfy anybody.

i'm concerned about the rate of inflation of the new goodies.

people have literally millions of gold. i'm sure there are a few billionares out there too.

wow, so prices are at base i think i'll buy a few hundred thousand. ok come get your over priced junk so i can make my money back + profit.

they will either make the price so high the poor and casual players can't afford or the rich players are going to make it that way for them.

and how is the assissan going to come in the picture. this has been a puzzle to me since the annoucement of a new class. do they start at lvl 20 in chapter 2? will i have to completely play through chapter 1 again? how is this going to work?

if they start in chapter 1 then you might as well just play with your normal chacters through chapter 2 then come back and get the assassin. if the assassin starts at lvl 20 to be on par with everyone else then we got a bunch of people that have never played with this class screwing up pugs.

not to mention changes to the AI by the time of release. this game changes dramaticly every single month like clockwork.

Perhaps chapter 2 couldhave a parallel storyline that after some missions coincide with chapter 1s (4-10 up to lvl 20) quests. This way parts of the story that has been missed can be repaired. making Less plot holes...

sort of like "meanwhile" or "a few years earlier" in storytelling terms this isnt unsual. in WC3 the diffrent campaigns are parallel an intertvined

then the Assasin and the other classes could also have tutorial missions in a pre world as well for their classes.

the old classes can also choose this parallel story line when Restarting.

Or did the world stood still and the gods where only fokused on a select heroes and a select series of events ?

And yes a bunch of new missions and quests for the ascended chapter1 heroes...

Not gonna happen.

Seems fairly simple to me. This is my guess. With chapter 2 you'll get:

- lvl 20 stays max (this is pretty much a certainty)
- new story (possibly better) with new missions
- new quests (possibly more challenging)
- new classes (with new skills)
- new elites for existing classes (so these have ways of improving themselves too)
- Maybe some new non-elite skills for old classes
- New pvp options (maybe a new arena and improvements to existing arena's)
- New weapons and armours for the new classes
- New weapons and armours for existing classes, but probably with the same sort of stats
- New towns and places
- Some other improvements (maybe an auction house, that sort of thing)

This will allow everyone to improve their characters (by opening up more combo's/possibilities etc.) while still making good on the claim that people do not need to buy the next chapter to be able to play competatively. The old builds will still be effective and the new builds should not be overpowered. However, pvp players wanting to have a full range of options for pvp will have to get the new chapter. Also, new fotm builds and new good combo's may require them to get the new chapter eventually. This is much like the way expansions were handled by the card game MTG. PvE players will want to capture new elites, get to the new places, get new stuff, etc. But they will not get the power/level/grind that some of them long for. For those players, WoW might be a better game.

I would be happy with this. Having new classes and new skills will open up many new combinations and strategies. And that is what I like best about this game.

Its all still speculation though.

I've never been disappointed with anything Arenanet have done to the game, I was blasted away by Haloween, I was expecting it to be good but not as good as that!

So I think your just going to have to put a little Faith in them... I know it would be nice to know NOW what it will be like.

I'm rather looking forward to the suprise and discovering it all for myself, without reading about it all on the forums first.

Once it is released and you try out all these things for yourself, only then can you determine if they solved the problems well or not. If they merely describe how they plan to get around the problems using text you can never really be sure until you have actually tried it for real, so it would all still be speculation.

Also, if they did manage to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO it all up then they are still very good at listening and fixing things, so I'm not worried about it at all.

Either it will be a new zone splitting things up like pre searing/post searing (and never the two shall meet) or it will be new areas etc in the current post searing world. If it's the latter I fail to see how those who don't buy it will not be at a disadvantage. The people with new skills, new weapons etc will be able to go into the existing areas with those things too. It will depend on how well the new things balance with the existing things.

Things like an auction house and spectator mode will also be available to people that didn't buy the expansion, so I think those will come to us in the form of an update.

If I recall correctly, in one of the interviews they said that there would also be lower level areas in the expansion world, for pve characters from the regular game that weren't at level 20 yet, so I think this is where the new classes will also level up.

They would be smart to have both the old and new classes start at the same areas, because it will make people who only bought the regular game want to buy the expansion more.

from what they have confirmed so far you are close.

they said a whole new story arch within the GW *book* so to speak.

that is why they are calling them CHAPTERS rather than expansions.

and you improve your character WITHOUT LEVEL NUMBER INFLATION.

if the ONLY way you see improvement as i get level 40 i get my level 10 fireball which kills the higher level monster in exactly the same way (EXCEPT FOR THE BIGGER NUMBERS) than your character wont improve and this game is not for you.

if you need a numerical pat on the head to prove you are better than the noobs forget it.

i play it because i have fun exploring or whatever i feel like not a bigger number

Yesterday I was helping a friend in Iron Mines (infusement mission). In a way, getting infused is also a way of leveling up. Same thing could be done in chapter 2 in order to fight the new enemies. Haven't thought about it when I started this post. I think Loviatar is right that numbers don't mean everything. The same thing with armor can be done with weapons of course, that they need some kind of magical upgrade in order to do damage in the new area's. What I meant to say is that there should be things in the expension that change/improve your character, so you have some extra to play for, appart from completing missions and quests. How the economy will react to the new items? I think it will be the same as with the green items. At first they will be very populair and thus expensive. Later on ppl will look at the use of the items and prices will drop again eventually, only the most effective ones which look "cool" will stay expensive. This however, is already the situation as it is today (fellblades, crystal swords, sickles, eternal bows/shields etc) which remain expensive. I don't think the new items will cause a big problem for the economy.

That made me laugh pretty hard for some reason...

One of the pinnacles of an rpg is character progression. One of the easiest ways to do this is through "numerical inflation" as some of you say. Is the story important? Yes. Is exploration important? Yes. While I'm not outright saying they will or won't raise the level cap, I feel they will do something in order to give a sense of character progression. If levels were so unimportant, then there wouldn't be 20 levels in this game in the first place. Why are there varying weapon damages in the game? Why are there attribute points? Why are there different armor values as you progress? If only story and exploration were important, you could make an action game and not call it an rpg. I believe they will do something in order to give a sense of character progression.

I just hope to god they don't forget actual PvP content (not just new classes/skills) like they seem to be doing with all these recent updates.

New classes/skills are more important to me than new arena's, maps etc. Skills are at the heart of pvp, imo.

here is a simple definitive statement on level raising from Alex Weekes of NCsoft (owners of Arenanet)

Alex Weekes
NCSoft

Quote:
Originally Posted by One and Two
They said they are considering raising the max level, as 20 means little improvement.

Maybe they plan on doing it like what they did with Diablo 2 and D2: LoD...they had an assassin too!

It's just going to be a pointless expansion. There's too much weakly developed about the game already to bring me back. Maybe if they had the wits to see they left their competitive audience stabbed in the nuts at release they could gain back some ground, but everywhere I go people only play this game for a couple weeks or month then don't touch it.

I think the most fair thing to do is leave the level cap as it is. Just give us more content with Chapter 2.

ArenaNet could give everyone the new level cap (30-40?), and allow the non-Chapter 2 players to gain experience in new zones in Chapter 1, or existing zones in Chapter 1 like the Underworld, the Fissure of Woe, etc.

If they did that, they would most likely have to release new items with better stats. If that happend, there would be a lot of disappointment from players who spent so much time working hard on obtaining expensive items like FoW armor, runes, weapons, etc.
The solution to this, could be; allow players to upgrade their items' stats via-quests, NPCs, etc.

There's still more issues to resolve if they did raise the level cap. That's why I think they won't raise the level cap.

and as another official statement said

Well up to a certain point, "character progression" (aka character leveling) no longer feels like progressing but rather a chore. GW gives us 20 levels to feel that progression. Then you can gather skills and runes to further your sense of progression.

Sorry, but if you're into a game for a high level of "character progression" this really isnt the game for you. I don't know how many times we have to drill that into people's heads.

There are plenty of ways that can be incorporated into GW to give you a sense of progression though, without making it a mandatory thing. Customization for example. Maybe some frivolous titles to go with your names or just some trinkets or trophies.

After you ascend, they should drop the lvl 20 indicator in front of your name, (like it says for example 'W/Mo 20 Feiry dagronsordmastah') because it serves no purpose anymore, anyway. If they did that, it would clear a lot of misconceptions people have with thinking levels are important in the game.

Excellent point, Lov. The level cap allows ANet to ensure that the "ascended" content will be suitable for everyone. It's more of a minimum grade than a glass ceiling. After all, there is a limited to human development - we don't keep growing taller, get stronger, etc. There comes a point in our lives where we reach our peak and have to face life as we are. And I love the way my characters face different challenges knowing that they've got to rely on themselves (and their team-mates!) as they are.

All I can say is ANet MUST have a lot more PvE content in Chapter 2, as it is important to keep the community stimulated. Of course we will need other changes, but PvE is a very important part of the game. Perhaps if they could have more free updates like Sorrow's Furnace in between chapter releases, that could keep things ticking over.

Would it be too much to hope for some mummy-type things in the desert? Come on, we could have a whole "Ancient Egypt thing" going based on the forgotten civilization of the serpent-people (what was their name?) with ancient temples, hieroglyph-filled rooms, traps, pyramids, etc. The possibilities are endless.......

Plus I think we need more plot-work concerning the liche. I think the Undead should be given a large role in the update. Also I think the Cathay-type lands where Jiaju Tai comes from should be accessible as well. They would provide a rich-tapestry for the ANet team to work with, as obviously no one has been there yet. Think of all the Oriental (read Far East) culture that could be thrown in.

Interesting. Perhaps you could replace the lvl 20 with other titles that you coudl earn through doing certain quests, missions, etc.

That's also a great idea, but maybe instead of titles, more something along the lines of medals. Like a sort of pictogram you could get if you finish all the main quests or all the bonus missions. 'W/Mo Feiry Dagronsordmastah'

I think titles would be dealt out by finishing particularly difficult quests, doing all the primary stuff, etc. A specific bonus would be ok, but doing all the bonuses in the game would be rather boring (especially as it's impossible to remember all of the ones that you've done).

I did them all. You can see it on the map if the mission icon has one or two swords.

LOL @ OS conversation

My only real concern has been beaten to death in this forum and others. Lets do something with the Guild Hall. Storage, trophy cases, drapes, whatever. For a game based on "Guilds" the halls are massively disappointing. I'm not real big on the "roleplaying" aspect of the game but it would be nice to have the hall be something more than a place to GvG. It should be the "center" of your Guild. There should be a reason your members want to hang out there. I disagreed with ANet when they made getting sigils so easy. I think the Hall should be earned in HoH. Win the durn sigil and it marks an "achievement" for your guild. We disbanded and reformed to specifically do just that. Been in the hall twice now, no luck so far but we will win and it will mean that much more to us. I hope they rethink/revamp the Halls and thier role in the game. my 2 cents-Pagan
p.s. to Patient Relaxed People and Korea One. Please let me know when y'all are not playing cause facing both of you at the same time in the Hall, although a learning experience, is not something i care to repeat! lol

One main goal I read (I think in the Gamespot interview) was that chapter 2 was going to focus on "putting the guild into guild wars". In other words, improvements on guild functionality.

I've bee playing RPGs now for 15 years. Pen and Paper and Computer based.
RPGs do not get "better" when the max LvL is "higher".
You are a good GW player if you collect your skills, know how to use them and get smart at creating Builds.
You are a bad player if you think that LvL 20 is enough top make you the rulor of the world.

If the player encounters a problem in WoW or any other OnlineRPG he can either throw "experience points and additional levels" at the problem or he solves it by getting "enough" players to attack "the problem"

That does not work in GW, that's why I like it. The Player has to be smart and strong not the online persona.

right now is the lowest point you will see GW at. with the schedule they released pve content is going to start coming fast.

chapter 1 released
1 year later chapter 2 release
6 mo after that a new chapter or expansion

i think every 6 months would be enough time to get bored with pve then add more content.

since more skills will be added with these expansions pvp will be altered too. looking forward to the future of this game.

Going around and collecting skills is simple. I probably have unlocked about 90% of all of the skills in the game. I have all of the ranger skills. I have all but 5 warrior skills. My mesmer only needs 6 more elites and she is done. My Monk needs 7 more skills. I could go on, but my point is, some time before the end of the year, I'll have unlocked every single skill available - and this was done via PVE, not faction farming. And this is from about six months of play.

Over 400 skills unlocked via PVE. I've done all of the content countless times, and find no other real meaning to the game, except grinding - grinding faction, experience, or farming.

Just adding a couple new professions and some new PVE content isn't going to solve the real lack of "accomplishment" - even if it's an artificial level up "carrot".

Anet added a lot of great new high level content already - yet hardly anyone does them. Getting a PUG together at Granite Citadel to defend droknar's takes ages. Everyone is simply farming at SF, to get stupid green items, or farming FoW or UW. Or doing solo runs killing griffons.

Farm farm farm.

Soooo....just what does the general state of the game have to do with people's lofty expectations of what GW should be?

its so strange to me that people have become acustomed to grinding so much in other games that's all they know how to do in this one.

What is depressing to me is that all of the "grinding" has little to do with getting better in the game.

You grind to farm ecto. The ecto is for FoW armor, which does nothing for you to be a better player. Or you sell the ecto, to make money to buy that shiny new axe with all of those cool mods - which doesn't make you a better player.

Or you grind farming by doing solo runs against griffons (or whatever) for gold. Again, just to gain money, which has little to do with making you a better player.

Or you do countless SF runs to get green items which does nothing to make you better.

It's meaningless grind, it doesn't give you much of a sense of accomplishment. OK, you got that neat-o FoW armor, and it doesn't do anything for you but give you a false sense of betterment. I laugh every time I run up against a player in PVE that thinks he's invincible with his new FoW armor. Or his new shiny gold chaos axe that doesn't kill any faster than a collectors item that cost 1/100th of what you spent for the rare.

I had one player in UW bragging about how he was rank 6 and how he wasn't a noob - yet he was nothing more than a cowboy, he had no clue about how to play in the UW and quit five minutes in because he stupidly aggroed some monsters and died.

My only question is - what's the point? What is the next chapter going to give us that solves this fundamental problem - the problem of the game devolving into meaningless farming? Whether or not the devs meant for the game to turn out to be a farming game - it is what it is.

In diablo 2, farming at least had a point. There were tangible rewards for making 2,000 Rindleskin runs - the off chance of getting that uber item you've coveted - one that DOES impact how well you're able to play the game. GW lacks that one aspect - replacing meaningful grind with arbitrary grind for cosmetics.

GW is nothing more than a fashion show, really. People want items that look cool. They want jewelry, baubles, being able to turn off their capes, dye their armor black, change their hair style, auras, glows - all things that ultimately do nothing that effects how the game PLAYS.

Shrug, that's not enough, ultimately, to sustain a game, IMO. At some point, everyone will have the baubles and shiny things to make them visualy satisfied, or unique, and then....what?

Games should have a carrot/stick aspect of the game. It should draw you in with rewards for good play - but keep the next best thing just out of reach for the player - and once they reach that goal - to have another one in the wings. GW lacks this.

It will be a problem down the road, I guarantee it. People will quest after shiny toys that ultimately do nothing better than the ones before it for only so long before they get bored.

Sorry for the spam, but I thought of something else that reinforces my arguement.

A few days ago, I went back with my warrior to redo Thirsty River - for some reason, I had forgotten to cap the skill there, and so I joined a PUG.

We went through the mission fairly easily. Everyone seemed to have a clue about what they needed to do. We finished in enough time to get the bonus, and everyone was happy.

After we zoned back to Augury Rock, one of the other players asked to see my shield - the collector's crimson carapace shield that gives you +45 health and -2 damage.

I showed it to him, and he whipped out his -3 damage shield to brag.

I told him it was nice (being polite) and he said "yeah, it's better than yours".

I told him that it didn't matter to me if it was or not - in the grand scheme of things, the difference between -2 and -3 isn't going to make any difference. He loled at that and left.

There is just so much fundamentally wrong with his attitude - and is the reason why farming is so prevalent yet such a waste of time. As long as people's perceptions of what is "better" is simply cosmetic, people will attach false values on items that doesn't statistically do squat for them.

What is wrong with a fashion show? Fashion shows are fun to a lot of people. For example, those people actually enjoying shopping for clothes. My only problem with that is that the fashion show requires you to go through a grind (so I skip that part mostly).

In PvE, there is really no way to get 'better' at some point (only the gold sinks are left as 'goals' at some point). I am not sure if you like pvp, but the 'cap' on self-improvement is not reached so quickly there. Try picking a new goal. Such as "joining a good guild and helping them to become the #1 guild in America/Europe/Korea, taking part in the GW championship-tournament and becoming world champion."

Seriously, if you want something more than just grinding for gold with little by way of real rewards and are looking for real challenges, pvp is the way to go. It will be a long time before you have made enough progress to be able to take and hold the HoH anytime you and your friends/guidies feel like it.

I guess that's why WoW is so hugely successful (and still growing) & why GW is at a low point now.

IMHO a MMORPG is not for the casual gamer and should not be designed as such.

There is a lot to fix now before the expansion hits, or it may DOA.