The Signet of Capture System Goes Against Fun Gameplay

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

09 May 2005 at 23:20 - 41

Quote:

Because you only need 8 skills, capture other elite skills is a bonus and NOT necessary. In order to be competitive, you do not need all the elites. Arenanet obviously have thought about all this, and made the rigth decision. You can tell by the armors and items. This shows SoC is a necessary evil, but in no way does it show that SoC is a good thing. As to a.net making the right decisions, i would've agreed with you right up until retail release. The 'knowledge' required to get elites right now is limited to browsing one of the growing compendiums of elite locations, the skill required to do so is stubborness. Neither of these things are in any way fun, nor are they necessary beyond instilling some abberant sense of 'accomplishment' in people who like shoving their heads into steaming piles of crap over and over to find one gem. Getting one elite requires perhaps 2 hours - what happens if you want to change to a different build? Another 2 hours. What happens if your guild decides to try a new strategy and needs you to get another elite? 2 hours. What if you want to try a different classes elites? you have to switch secondaries on your farmer character and then spend another 2 hours farming elites. The time adds up, and contemplating the amount of farming i'll have to do to have fun messing around with different builds and trying new stuff is making me really reconsider playing at this point.

Laz

goku19123

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

09 May 2005 at 23:31 - 42

Very simply...this game was supposed to eliminate the grind necessary to be competitive(period). That was the selling point, the elimination of time sinks (or as close as possible). We all understand that Arena.net is trying really hard to cater to all types of players, and in such have placed around the world of Tyria various time sinks. However, as good as time sinks are for hardcore PvE'ers and such, there needs to be alternatives for casual players. While there is divide between those who embrace the SoC feature and those who would rather see it disappear, there needs to be a middle ground. The solution - keep the SoC feature as is, for those who are hardcore and can handle time sinks, but for casual gamers make elites purchasable at skill vendors (one suggestion is having the elites cost 1 skill point and a vast amount of gold (something like 2000 gold for the first elite purchase and then scales upward for each purchase thereafter)). This gives those who don't want to spend the time searching another form of the time sink - gold instead of spending hour+ for one skill. I, for one, would rather pay a vast amount of gold and a skill point instead of spending the 2 hours or so it took me to finally get Skull Crack. The unlocking system alleviates this to an extent, but casual gamers don't have that kind of time to spend to unlock elites (not to mention spawn variables and whether or not the boss uses the skill or whether the party is newbs abd doesn't give you time to get it). Doing a quest for an elite skill is also a decent idea, but much more difficult to implement than something along the lines of what I have suggested. Moreover, for those who don't want to spend that kind of gold, they could still go out and SoC it - it's the best for both parties in my opinion. But saying that people should just tolerate a system like this, and deal with it, is not the A.net way. Granted, what some considered grind, others do not - but there needs to be a middle ground. The statement should not be "As boring as it is, I don't mind hunting for elite skills" or "I can tolerate this system" ; you shouldn't have to "tolerate" a GAME, it should be played because it's fun...and if it isn't fun, well...

Augy

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

Imperial Rome

09 May 2005 at 23:43 - 43

To those finding this process a grind, thats pretty laughable. It makes me wonder how many previous MMOs you've played and how much real grinding you've done to make a so-called "ub3r t00n." In other games, it takes months, weeks, hundreds of hours and tedious traveling around and fighting to get anywhere with your character. In this game it takes, what, a week, week and a half to reach the level cap? And once you open up cities and outposts traveling around the known world takes a couple of mouse clicks? And now we find people whining about spending a whole 2 hours to get a skill.

Boot up your copy of Nox if you want insta-PvP, with all skills in a fantasy setting.

Or, if you want to experience true pain, try out EQ2 and camp a spawn for hours on end so you can get the uber drop or advance a quest, while competing with the entire server playerbase to do so.

Seriously, the SoC system is no big deal. If the article that was posted reflects the sentiments of the PvP community in regards to this process, you're all better off playing CS:S if your attention span is really that short.

[/flame]

Eet GnomeSmasher

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

In my head

09 May 2005 at 23:53 - 44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augy

To those finding this process a grind, thats pretty laughable. It makes me wonder how many previous MMOs you've played and how much real grinding you've done to make a so-called "ub3r t00n." In other games, blah blah blah....
[/flame] Flame is right. All you've done in your post is troll and flame without addressing any of the issues brought up.

And once again, GW is NOT other games! We don't give a crap what they do in other games, GW was supposed to be revolutionary in that we wouldnt have to deal with the unnecessary grind in those games.

And yet again, the exaggeration that people want instant PVP is the only thing people like you can bring up and entirely false. Can we please at least come up with actual discussions instead of rehashing the same old lines that don't have anything to do with the topic?

goku19123

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

09 May 2005 at 23:55 - 45

Kaelan

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

San Jose, CA

Knights Who Say Ni

Me/W

09 May 2005 at 23:58 - 46

If we could at least cap elite skills from each other in PvP, I think that would make things a lot better. The main place I see rare elite skills is on koreans in PvP.

goku19123

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

10 May 2005 at 00:06 - 47

Well, then you run into the problem of people capturing the elites from pre-made characters...which would not be right lol, and would lead to farming the elites off of pre-mades.

Eclair

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2005

10 May 2005 at 00:12 - 48

I think somebody already suggested something like this in this thread:

Make PvP and PvE separate. PvE people cannot play against PvP, and PvP people cannot play against PvE. Since there's obviously people who like the idea of capturing skills, and others who just like to pvp without the hassle of finding stuff, why not just make it so that everything is unlocked for PvP. Anybody who wants to try out different builds and pvp competively can just make a pvp char and pvp with other people. People who like to earn skills/items can still do so, and still stay competitive against other players.

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

10 May 2005 at 00:16 - 49

because that would make entirely too much sense.

Acidalia

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

10 May 2005 at 00:51 - 50

Stop the whining about grinding already.
I'm a long term Lineage II player and I can tell you, there is absolutely no grind in Guildwars compared to Lineage II

And that person that said that there are so many flaws in the capturing system, do you even bother telling the flaws instead just whining?

I'm simply very happy about Guildwars, the way how it is now and I'm not looking for any changes.
It is a CORPG and PVP based game. So why would you just get to PVP right from the start?
It is a RPG remember, your own character, so work on it than start PVP'ing and you can brag about all your so called "1337" pvp skills.

So far I've gotten most of my needed skills to be able to do some decent PVP and it didn't took me long to get all, the guildwarsguru forums and other fansites have plenty of information about where to get certain elite skills.
Only skill I'm missing is Barrage...

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

10 May 2005 at 01:05 - 51

Quote:

Stop the whining about grinding already.
I'm a long term Lineage II player and I can tell you, there is absolutely no grind in Guildwars compared to Lineage II Yet there is a TON of grinding compared to guild wars beta weekend events (even discounting the all skills unlocked function of the last two).

Frankly, I could not care less about lineage 2 grind; I was sold on this game because it lacked grind almost completely in the bwe - that isn't true anymore.

Laz

Sidra Meum

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2005

10 May 2005 at 01:07 - 52

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

It's not that it's two hours for one skill, it's the cumulative hours spent if you decide to try a new build - that's the grind. No one said there was a level grind, it takes one day to hit 20; the skill gathering is the grind.

"I'm Colonel Cool, the Captain of this ship."
"Well, which one are you - the Colonel or Captain?"
"Neither - I'm both!"
Once you have a skill. Its unlocked. For your account. Completely. Its not like you just spent 70 hours getting a kick ass set of armor and this l33t sword only to have someone loot it from you and all your work goes down the drain.

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

10 May 2005 at 01:14 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra Meum

Once you have a skill. Its unlocked. For your account. Completely. Its not like you just spent 70 hours getting a kick ass set of armor and this l33t sword only to have someone loot it from you and all your work goes down the drain. Every extra time sink you add to the game sets the entry bar for competitive pvp a bit higher. Runes are a massive timesink, the skill system less so but more frustrating because its more vital.

That its unlocked all the way after you acquire it is fine, that you have to jump through hoops and waste a ton of time before you can do something that the game was billed as promoting - competitive pvp - is where the annoyance arises.

Laz

Sidra Meum

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2005

10 May 2005 at 01:18 - 54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Every extra time sink you add to the game sets the entry bar for competitive pvp a bit higher. Runes are a massive timesink, the skill system less so but more frustrating because its more vital.

That its unlocked all the way after you acquire it is fine, that you have to jump through hoops and waste a ton of time before you can do something that the game was billed as promoting - competitive pvp - is where the annoyance arises.

Laz
That is just it. You DO NOT NEED to go hunt down every elite skill and rune in order to PVP. You dont need to go into the RPG of the game at all. You can load up and PVP right off the bat. True - you have just the BASICS. The game never said "You can PVP right off the bat with the best stuff in game!" It just advertised you being able to jump right into PVP. Which you can. You want better stuff. Go out and get it.

Helfarch

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: May 2005

10 May 2005 at 01:20 - 55

I thought GW was a RPG not a fantasy FPS.

Eet GnomeSmasher

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

In my head

10 May 2005 at 01:39 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra Meum

That is just it. You DO NOT NEED to go hunt down every elite skill and rune in order to PVP. You dont need to go into the RPG of the game at all. You can load up and PVP right off the bat. True - you have just the BASICS. The game never said "You can PVP right off the bat with the best stuff in game!" It just advertised you being able to jump right into PVP. Which you can. You want better stuff. Go out and get it.
I'm really tired of people telling others what they need or don't need. We could say that you don't need to make Elites so hard to get then. If you keep insisting that Elites are no big deal then why not make it more player friendly to get?

What purpose does it serve to force this tedious skill capturing system on people other than grind if Elites aren't needed? What purpose other than to make those who have the time to waste feel good about their "accomplishment?"

This is a game. It's supposed to be fun. If people want to hunt down every elite skill and rune to PVP, then why shouldnt they be able to? But the thing is, the process of doing so, just isn't very fun to a casual player.

The problem is that there are no alternatives to getting an Elite skill other than skill capturing. And there are no other ways of getting runes other than PVE. It's strange that some of you PVE players keep insisting that it's fun so what does it matter in letting others bypass this "fun" and get their skills and runes in other ways?

Jackell

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Buffalo NY

None at the moment

R/E

10 May 2005 at 01:40 - 57

They've made the really good stuff hard to get. Oh no.

You can get most everything just by playing the game and questing. Dear lord, help me, they made something you have to work for. Elite skills aren't the be all end all. You can create an equally powerful and effective character without them. But their cool. Personally, I'm really happy they made the really cool and strong things hard to get. It makes them so special. You don't want to work for the elite skills? Fine, don't get them. But it's something that you really have to try for, and when you get it, you've earned it. And no casual gamer this and casual gamer that argument. This game is designed for the casual gamer. A small level cap allows everyone access to the map, and good gear. But it's still got to have some difficulty and hard things to complete. The elite skills are just that. The hard things. Sometimes hearing the casual gamer argument makes me think that people want to start at max level, people want every guild to automatically get a guild hall, and badass weapons. To make creatures do no damage, and every town and skill unlocked.

You have to draw the line between what's good for casual players, and what's good for the whole experience. And working hard for the exact skill you want is good. It's something to strive for, something that has the challenge and the reward. It just makes sense that in order to get the hard skills, you have to do something hard. It's not a grind. I've fought too many Ol Mahum's in Lineage 2 to KNOW that there isn't a grind. It's a challenge. You need a challenge, why else play?

Eet GnomeSmasher

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

In my head

10 May 2005 at 01:49 - 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackell

So which is it? Elite skills aren't "the be all end all" or something "really good stuff that is cool and strong?" You people who keep telling us that Elites arent that big of a deal then turn around and say that the really good stuff should be hard to get. Hooray for hypocrisy!

Besides, most people aren't asking for the skills to be handed to them. Stop saying that we do. Man, I keep seeing the same irrelevant arguments over and over and outright lies.

And this is the billionth post about how "blah blah I did this in Lineage 2 and this and that in COH" Do you people have the same speech writers or something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acidalia

And that person that said that there are so many flaws in the capturing system, do you even bother telling the flaws instead just whining?
And do you even bother reading the posts in this thread? I've posted a point by point post listing the flaws. Don't you feel like a tool now?

Zek

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2005

10 May 2005 at 02:20 - 59

Personally I think the Signet of Capture is a stupid idea for a PvP-oriented game, but let's be honest for a second guys... Your character can only equip ONE Elite skill at a time. At most there are only a handful that you will really want. Earlier in the thread someone said that you had to unlock all skills and runes to be competitive in PvP, and just had to laugh. To be competitive in PvP, you need to unlock the skills and upgrades that you plan to use. You don't have to capture all of the Elites. If you want to be a perfectionist and have every skill available in the game, then you're going to have to do a lot of playing.

Sidra Meum

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2005

10 May 2005 at 02:52 - 60

I think a lot of people, need to simply read this page again.

http://www.guildwars.com/gameinfo/default.html

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

10 May 2005 at 02:55 - 61

Yeah, especially this part:
Quote:

kairusan

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

10 May 2005 at 03:06 - 62

I am not sure but if the elite skills were at the intown merchants during the early release of the game or only during the beta. But with my experience with other games they usually make things that are going to be hard to get very accessible to the gamers so they can try every aspect of the game during beta testing. Personally I like the signet of capture part of the game, I got a Shield of Regen today from the Monk Facet in the Dragons Lair. I felt a feeling of accomplishment afterwards. I dont understand all of the people who dont understand that if you build your character during PvE you will have an advantage in PvP. That is the reward. Obviously

Manderlock

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Crimson ScS

W/N

10 May 2005 at 04:04 - 63

To the OP, these are called *ELITE* skills, i.e. not easy to get. I realy like not having stuff handed to me. Do i get pissed when I have to try over agin? Damn strait, but I wouldnt have it any other way.

To the people talking saying "They lied this game does have grind". I love a game that only needs about 20 hours of gameplay to complete

. The "grind" they are talking about is not having to constintly play just to stay even with everyone else(i.e. the lvl cap). Does this mean that the game is short and small? Hell no, the game is huge and it does take time to beat it, but once you hit lvl 20 you are on pare with every other player.

Granted that *elite* skills are hard to find, but thats why they are called *elite*.

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

10 May 2005 at 04:39 - 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Second, Siren has been calling people "crybabies" if that's not someone being crude then I don't know what is.

I wanted to clarify here. I called the majority of the whiners "crybabies" because what the whiners are whining about is inconsequential, and their posts have been nothing more than bitching and moaning, with no real suggestions or solutions being offered, only whining and complaining. That, to me, is the purest definition of a "crybaby." Only in the last five posts have there been any hints of what ANet can do to "fix" the SoC system...before that, absolutely nothing. Calling people "crybabies" is harsh, probably, but it's accurate, because that's what most of the so-called "critics" have been acting like.

Quote: And this part isn't addressed to you specifically, but for those people who keep bringing up the unlocking all skills option, well this is NOT about that. This is about the Elite skills system being flawed. Okay, so you dislike the hunt? To nab a particular Elite skill, you just want to buy it from a Vendor, basically? Why would it be called Elite at all then? It may as well just be yet another normal skill.

Quote: Also it's funny that a lot of you associate spending long tedious hours on gaining something as "accomplishment" Well, I'm glad you people are so proud of that fact. But there are some who don't consider a tedious frustrating boring system as fun. What are some of the alternatives being suggested, then?

Quote: Originally Posted by goku19123 The solution - keep the SoC feature as is, for those who are hardcore and can handle time sinks, but for casual gamers make elites purchasable at skill vendors (one suggestion is having the elites cost 1 skill point and a vast amount of gold (something like 2000 gold for the first elite purchase and then scales upward for each purchase thereafter)) But earlier in the thread, I think butcherboy effectively countered that suggestion:

Quote: Originally Posted by butcherboy Selling skills in town would simply attribute to cash grind and monster farming grind and wouldn't be any sort of reward as it is. The Signet of Capture thingie sounds like an excellent way for players to devise their own quests ("I need the super springy arrow skill that the Gonks have in the brushlands so I will make an expedition to go there and get that skill") vice grinding ("I'll have 5000gp for my l33t super springy arrow skill if I kill 20k more Gonks because the Gonks have good cash drops"). No grind no problems. Selling skills at Vendors would only compound the issue, because it would be an even heavier "grind"--in fact, selling skills at Vendors, having them priced much higher than other "normal" skills, would in fact be a clearly definable grind.

Quote: Originally Posted by EetGnomeSmasher A good suggestion for a fix has been mentioned. Quests would be much better to point you in the direction of where a monster with a specific skill is. Another is to fix the skill capturing system fixing all the points that I mentioned. Now this is a viable solution. It would still involve the Signet of Capture (which is a fantastic idea, let's be honest), but it would also direct the player to their target, as a mission objective, which would spawn the creature with the profession and skill desired. The only potential issue here would be the Quest-Givers (horrid term, I know, but it's the best I could think of) having a rather static spot, which would...which may very well encourage a mass grind...call it Quest Farming, I suppose.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lazarous Make skill traders give elites again. Hell, make them cost 2 skill points to acquire if you want to pander to the pve farming crowd so much, just make it so SoC isn't the only option. Lazarous' suggestion is no more viable than goku's above...it's the exact same thing, anyway, and frankly, I find it to be a dumb idea, no offense. It doesn't make sense (for me, anyway) to see an Elite Mesmer skill like Ineptitude next to Empathy in Ascalon City.

And even if it costs more, whether in skill points or gold, that's not going to deter a player grind, nor will it magically solve anything. It will only compound the problem, because eventually, we're going to get griefing about how many mobs players have to kill to net enough gold or whatever to purchase that special Elite skill they've got their eyes on.

Quote: Originally Posted by EetGnomeSmasher And for crying out loud. Not everyone asked for instant access to Elites ! Just for an improvement in the current system. Stop using that invalid tired old argument. Some of you are using exaggerations to try to make your arguments. EGS, from what I've read in this thread, it seems that most, if not all, here are asking for what amounts to either an instant access to Elite skills, or something (Vendors) that amounts to an even worse grind than some believe there is. Just reading through the thread, reading various "solutions," it is crystal clear to me that there is very little being offered apart from requests that amount to simple "instant access." EGS, I think you were one of the only ones in this thread to actually discuss a viable solution...and then you never bothered to repeat it in your later posts.

From what I've seen on these forums, you need to bash things into most peoples' heads so they "get it." I'm not trying to burn you here, so don't take this the wrong way, but if you have a solution, you need to keep repeating it, lol.

Now, I had quoted goku19123 earlier, and I'd like to focus on the quote again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

The solution - keep the SoC feature as is, for those who are hardcore and can handle time sinks, but for casual gamers make elites purchasable at skill vendors Now, call me crazy, but I don't think that's the case at all. It seems to me that the hardcore gamers are the ones foaming at the mouths because they want uber PvP templates, and the casual gamers are the ones that have no problem with the SoC system.

I'm a casual gamer, and I'm fine with unlocking/stealing skills/spells. I dig the exploration, I enjoy poking off into unchartered land, getting into all sorts of crazy battles, etc., so for me, who treats the game very casually, the SoC system doesn't bother me in the least, and I have a feeling that's how it is for a lot of the truly casual players here.

I'm seeing a few people quoting the GuildWars synopsis, and attempting to "prove" that ANet is contradicting that press release, but there's no contradiction. There's no false advertising. There was never any misinformation.

Quote:

If you like Player-versus-Player competition, Guild Wars was made for you. In addition to building up a character by undergoing missions and quests, you can choose to create a character specifically for head-to-head PvP competition or guild warfare. The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete. All that says is you have two options for creating characters, one of them being a full roleplaying character that you build up and develop through quests and missions (which we have), and the other being a character ready-made for PvP (which we have).

There's no doubt in my mind that the ready-made PvP character the excerpt refers to is the Shock Sniper, Divine Healer...the pre-made, named builds.

"You won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete" specifically deals with leveling, so there's no false advertising there, either.

As much as some people want to scream conspiracy or misleading developers...ArenaNet is sticking to what they said they were doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EetGnomeSmasher

I'm really tired of people telling others what they need or don't need. I can say with utmost confidence that you missed entirely what Sidra Meum was saying.

He (she?) wasn't telling you what you specifically need for the game. Sidra was merely explaining that from the developer's standpoint, Elites aren't needed to jump into PvP, and never were needed. The players are the ones who set the curve, so to speak, so any "need" for Elite skills is based on the "hardcore grinders."

And I think that's a really important point to consider...because the only reason anything feels like a grind in the first place is because powergamers are the ones setting the pace in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Yet there is a TON of grinding compared to guild wars beta weekend events (even discounting the all skills unlocked function of the last two). Ignoring the fact that it's only grinding because players have transformed it into a race...Betas are just that. Betas. What you see, do, experience in a Beta weekend is not set in stone, and to expect All Skills Unlocked, or all skills in every Vendor, etc., in the final retail release is largely ignoring what the Beta is; kairusan summed it up nicely:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kairusan

I am not sure but if the elite skills were at the intown merchants during the early release of the game or only during the beta. But with my experience with other games they usually make things that are going to be hard to get very accessible to the gamers so they can try every aspect of the game during beta testing. That's why these criticisms are largely illegitimate...because they're largely based on something that was designed a particular way for a very particular reason (the Beta Experience, as it were), and a reason that has no bearing or relevance to the full retail version of the game.

goku19123

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

10 May 2005 at 06:22 - 65

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra Meum

Once you have a skill. Its unlocked. For your account. Completely. Its not like you just spent 70 hours getting a kick ass set of armor and this l33t sword only to have someone loot it from you and all your work goes down the drain. I am aware of unlocking, I was merely stating that hunting down many elites is time consuming (especially if you want to try out different builds).

Edit: As a note, I was not saying "make elite skills available ONLY at skill vendors." I was saying to keep the system we have now AND make them available at skills vendors so that there is at least one other way to get elite skills. Clearly, the definition of which would be a bigger "grind" is subject to opinion, and clearly Arena.net wants people to work for those skills. So who cares if someone spends 2 hours getting the elite with an SoC or spends 3000 gold for it? They both take about the same amount of time to accomplish - the only difference is now a casual gamer can spend 30 minutes here and there gathering gold for it, instead of being screwed out the skill because that person doesn't have 1 hour+ to sit down with his/her thumb up their ass trying to hunt for it.

Edit2: I define the casual gamer as someone who can only play gw for 1-15 hours a week.

Siren

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

10 May 2005 at 07:19 - 66

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

Edit: As a note, I was not saying "make elite skills available ONLY at skill vendors." I was saying to keep the system we have now AND make them available at skills vendors so that there is at least one other way to get elite skills. Clearly, the definition of which would be a bigger "grind" is subject to opinion, and clearly Arena.net wants people to work for those skills. So who cares if someone spends 2 hours getting the elite with an SoC or spends 3000 gold for it? They both take about the same amount of time to accomplish - the only difference is now a casual gamer can spend 30 minutes here and there gathering gold for it, instead of being screwed out the skill because that person doesn't have 1 hour+ to sit down with his/her thumb up their ass trying to hunt for it. goku, well, there's the rub, isn't it? Your idea has good intent, but if you were selling Elite skills at 3k a pop...do you know how much mob hunting it would take to get only three Elite skills at that price?

I don't know about anyone else, but I've been fairly frugal with my expenditures in-game--not to the point of hoarding gold, but only spending when I need to--and I only recently broke 2500...and I just hit Lion's Arch. This is with selling weapons I pick-up, selling extra artifacts, Charr Carvings (and the other useless Collector items once I got what I needed), mind.

I think adding Elite skills to Vendors at a price of even 1k is going to create a major, major grind, which would turn out even worse and longer than the SoC "grind." I mean think about it. What are people going to be doing when they see Energy Drain, Ineptitude, and Migraine all selling for 2k each? They're going to go out and farm mobs like there's no tomorrow. It's just going to breed more powergamers/powergrinders. It's not going to solve anything.

I'm going to say it again: the probability of adding Elite skills to the skill vendors to alleviate the issue of the grind, even if it's added as an alternative to SoC, having any dramatic improvement on powergaming/powergrinding is slim to none, because it's not going to change any perceptions of the Elite skill system. All it's going to do is compound the "problem" by creating a longer, more boring grind.

Plus, the issue is not the system, whatever that system may be. The issue is the gamers themselves who create the grind when there isn't one (the race I mentioned earlier). SoC is not a grind. Skill vendors selling Elite skills at 2k a pop, given the already enhanced yet still rather limited gold drops? That's getting very close to a guaranteed grind, I'd think.

So far, the most viable solution is the Quest-based Elite SoC changes. Adding Elite skills to Vendors is not addressing the issue; it's merely creating another issue. I don't think the SoC system is horrible, I don't think it's as game-breaking as some here lead us to believe, because it really isn't. It merely needs a bit of a tweak.

GuildWars isn't quickly becoming mediocre. It's becoming fine-tuned. ANet is adding in new features, and over the next two or three months, I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing some changes and progression. The Quest-based idea is a solid one, and I don't think it'd be radical to incorporate it into the game.

eventhorizen

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

10 May 2005 at 07:28 - 67

Ah yes, now we are starting to see all the uber l33t insta pvp crowd moan because theyve realised very soon their going to be at a severe disadvantage to people who have come through the PvE area.

And I think thats great. People who have delved deep into this game get greater rewards, people who spend hours perfecting their characters will have better characters to take into a fight. People who are serious about Guild Wars and not just logging on to 'rape' an opponent and log off get the most out of it. A true breath of fresh air in todays gaming market where all the tricks of a game appear on forums within days of release, and all anyone has to do to find out how to play to a high standard is read the forums.

Welcome to Guild Wars guys, a game where you have to be really good at the entire game, to be any good at the game.

Please take your moaning elsewhere. Anyone with longer than a 10 minute attention span doesnt really care.

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

10 May 2005 at 08:09 - 68

Siren - lions arch is perhaps a third of the way through the game. Probably a quarter. Judging how much of a grind something is going to be based off your admittedly limited experience of the pve game hardly seems reasonable.

3k does not take much killing and looting to accomplish in the later zones, and as the suggestor pointed out it would allow the accumulation to take place in smaller doses so they don't have to spend large chunks of their life at once to acquire one skill.

Quote:
I'm going to say it again: the probability of adding Elite skills to the skill vendors to alleviate the issue of the grind, even if it's added as an alternative to SoC, having any dramatic improvement on powergaming/powergrinding is slim to none, because it's not going to change any perceptions of the Elite skill system. All it's going to do is compound the "problem" by creating a longer, more boring grind.

It was this way in beta, and damned few people complained about elites being a grind. No one at all that i know of complained that they were too easy to get.

Quote:

Ah yes, now we are starting to see all the uber l33t insta pvp crowd moan because theyve realised very soon their going to be at a severe disadvantage to people who have come through the PvE area.

And I think thats great. People who have delved deep into this game get greater rewards, people who spend hours perfecting their characters will have better characters to take into a fight Did you ever read the design statments a.net made about guild wars? its linked to above, and says the exact opposite of what you're propounding as the goal of guild wars - where skill, not time spent playing, matters more. Skill requires an even playing field in terms of game abilities, and if you create a time sink to get some abilities, like elites, you therefore no longer have an environment where skill is paramount to winning.

Did it ever cross your mind that people don't particularly care for beating up on near helpless AI whose only chance at defeating you lies in its ridiculous stat bonuses? that they might enjoy the interplay between various skill bar selections when there are people directing them? no?

The skill system guild wars has offers a wonderful chance for competitive play, but they're gutting it by making the bar to enter competitive play both high and tedius to reach.

Laz

Jackell

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Buffalo NY

None at the moment

R/E

10 May 2005 at 08:19 - 69

Yes, I said an elite skill is not the be all end all.

Yes, I said their strong and cool.

No, those don't counteract each other.

A warriors dragon sword is strong and cool. It's not the be all end all of warriors though.

Get out from under your brdige and go away troll. Your moaning, whining, and grossly misinterpreting what everyone says is making making your point less and less valid, and making everyone's stronger.

eventhorizen

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

10 May 2005 at 08:29 - 70

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Siren - lions arch is perhaps a third of the way through the game. Probably a quarter. Judging how much of a grind something is going to be based off your admittedly limited experience of the pve game hardly seems reasonable.

3k does not take much killing and looting to accomplish in the later zones, and as the suggestor pointed out it would allow the accumulation to take place in smaller doses so they don't have to spend large chunks of their life at once to acquire one skill.

It was this way in beta, and damned few people complained about elites being a grind. No one at all that i know of complained that they were too easy to get.

Did you ever read the design statments a.net made about guild wars? its linked to above, and says the exact opposite of what you're propounding as the goal of guild wars - where skill, not time spent playing, matters more. Skill requires an even playing field in terms of game abilities, and if you create a time sink to get some abilities, like elites, you therefore no longer have an environment where skill is paramount to winning.

Did it ever cross your mind that people don't particularly care for beating up on near helpless AI whose only chance at defeating you lies in its ridiculous stat bonuses? that they might enjoy the interplay between various skill bar selections when there are people directing them? no?

The skill system guild wars has offers a wonderful chance for competitive play, but they're gutting it by making the bar to enter competitive play both high and tedius to reach.

Laz

And have YOU played Guild Wars yet? Did anyone in a.net say skill was a thing you would not have to learn/earn/grind to get? I see very little games where SKILL doesnt take hours and hours of hardcore gaming to get. YOU want a pick up and play game with no depth, no challange, everything unlocked instantly, whereas what WE have got is deeply complex game that doesnt take long to LEARN but is going to take MONTHS and MONTHS of playing to MASTER.

Again I applaude, learning to become really really good at a game is not a grind, its something very few dedicated individuals in all games manage.

Afaik, a.net aim wasnt to create a game where everyone could play and be the Ultimate Warrior/Mage blah blah within minutes installing the game. They wanted to make it fun, while removing some of the worst elements of RPG's, thus we have to walk to mission objectives but can teleport back.
If you do nothing but PvP, and cannot stand to play PvE whatsoever, then yes I can undertsand you are going to be at a disadvantage. The point remains that Guild Wars is not the game for you if you want to be the absolute best without doing PvE, nor by ignoring parts of the game you dont like will you ever be the best at this game.
Thats what I love about MMO competitive games, Homeworld 2 was, still is, head and shoulders above most, because for all the arguements blah blah, the best will usually win in style. You get all upset because creating a trully brilliant character is going to mean you have to do things you dont like. LOL, I can see you are a newbie to online competitive gaming.

Hope to wipe the floor with you one day with my PvE characters in the HoH, catch you later.

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

10 May 2005 at 08:45 - 71

eventhorizen

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

10 May 2005 at 08:45 - 72

Sorry for the double post, I forgot to add what I wanted to say on the issue of elite skills.

If you make them easier to find then everyone is going to have them, like everyone would find the best sword, etc. No matter how little they play. If you give them to pre made PvP characters not only might you as well give them access to all their skills, but all PvE characters who have not managed to get them will be severly disadvantaged in the later game.
The way its done now every single player in the game has to put in a bit of effort, or show a bit of skill, to attain them. You cant give a PvP build such a massive advantage over a PvE character in PvP. But you can disadvantage a minority of players.

So to keep the game fair and not easy, balanced and not a pick up and ownz0r All, I would say annoy a few Frag Junkies here for the kill and not the game.

Personally having played a lot of pvp mmo's, like Eve-Online amongst a lot of others, and almost no FPS at all, this is one of the best thought out, most interesting games iv seen to date.

You can do it all if you want whenever, but like the best games real dedication and skill is required if you want to be one of the best at the game.

Eet GnomeSmasher

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

In my head

10 May 2005 at 08:56 - 74

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackell

eventhorizen

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

10 May 2005 at 09:00 - 75

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Kicking the snot out of braindead AI is not a challenge. Its repetitive and boring. You can master pve all you want, the moment you step into tombs or even arena you're gonna get creamed. Fighting people who actually do stuff like move out of freaking AoE's is a whole other world than fighting bugs that use 3 skills and beg to die.

I'll try to use small words here to make it easy to understand - competitive pvp requires an even playing field for skill to matter. The only measure of player skill you can see displayed in game is the way they utilize their available abilities. If one player is handicapped because he doesn't have access to some abilities simply due to the fact of not spending time completing actions that otherwise have no bearing on pvp you have a situation where player skill is minimized.

The games skillset is balanced around it being available IN TOTAL to the competing parties. Try to grasp that. Having the entire skillset unlocked doesn't make you an uber warrior - all it does is make you even. Not having it unlocked means you're fighting under a handicap.

All that forcing people to play pve to become competitive at pvp does is make it so that you won't see player who understand the game well and can play it well (player skill) but have limited time. Despite your avid belief that playing 1 billion hours in a game makes you incredibly good at it, this is not always the case.

By all means jump directly to tombs after doing nothing but pve. Your teams will hate you with an unbridled passion for your uselessness. Feel free to spam something like virulence(elite) right on the enemy warriors, show how all that time spent farming is put to good use.

Laz
Dude my vocabulary is not something you should underestimate, but your attempt to insult me is irrelevent. Point is that everything is available to everyone in this game, its just you dont want to explore this entire game.
One of the the bonuses about PvE over PvP is that the attainment of skills is done slowly, and in small numbers. This means that you get a skill, at a low level, and then can spend hours simply experimenting with that one skill.

You show your total lack of understanding of this game by saying kicking the snot out of npc's doesnt require skill, I challange you to walk directly from Piken Square to Yaks Bend at level 11, oh thats right, you have no idea what im talking about.

You dont want to grind your way through the PvE areas, fine dude, thats your choice. Their is a large portion of the player base who think for a MMO this is one of the most atmospheric and stunning worlds ever created.
The fact of the matter is that you want it all right now, simply to compete against others in combat. This magnificent game does not give you that ability, so why do you still play? Plenty other people, myself included, are into their second or third characters, having completed the game as far as levelling goes with their previous characters.
Players like me who have put the time into exploring the game the developers created can if we do it correctly get the most out of the game. So stop your whining, it will take some degree of skill to gain access to the best skill and equipement, they dont just sit on the nearest scorpion ready for some n00b with a big sword to rip through.

As I have said before, although your impressive skills of denial will no doubt have prevented you from undertsanding this, is that those people who master this game, not spend the most time on it, but MASTER it, are going to have the best advantages. Skill at the WHOLE game, not just PvP, is going to determine what you have access to. If you think you are so impressive at Guild Wars why dont we both make PvE characters and meet up? Obviously you will able to tear through the game as fast as me atleast, suffering the same number if not less deaths gaining the same stuff if not better?

This game is here for people to master, there is no rush to do so, you might be top of the ladder for now, but im pretty sure in the future we are going to see people top the ladder for long stretches at a time. Why should you be able to claim the highest honours in the game by ignoring large parts of it? Skill at Guild Wars the game is going to tell in the future. So for your sake you better start brushing up your PvE skills, otherwise for all I care you can stop playing.
And good riddence.

Manderlock

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Crimson ScS

W/N

10 May 2005 at 09:01 - 76

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Lazarous

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

10 May 2005 at 09:03 - 78

The way its done now every single player in the game has to put in a bit of effort, or show a bit of skill, to attain them. You cant give a PvP build such a massive advantage over a PvE character in PvP. But you can disadvantage a minority of players. How is adding elite skill trainers into the game giving pvp a massive advantage over pve characters? How is adding quests that unlock elite skills giving pvp characters a massive advantage over pve characters? Show how *one* of the options presented in this thread favors pvp characters before you say stuff like that.

Flat out - casual players that don't have time to grind like mofos are at a disadvantage with this system. They will enter arena, meet one of your fearsome l337 kiddies who does nothing but farm elites and runes all day, get smashed over and over because they can't put the time investment into becoming 'good players' even though they'd likely kick the l337 kiddies butt if they had all the upgrades and skills available to them.

Dedication and skill are all wonderful things when they actually mean something to the game you're playing. PvP is not like PvE in guild wars, and will not be the same in any game right up until the point actual AI is created. Its like saying you have to master basketweaving to become the greatest swordsman who ever lived - nonsense.

Laz

Manderlock

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Crimson ScS

W/N

10 May 2005 at 09:06 - 79

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

You can not master Guild Wars through PvE. If you think that's the case your just a scrub in any real players eyes.
To truly master Guild War you need to be skilled in PvP and PvE.

However its true that this game is what you make it. If you only want to only master PvP go ahead.................................and just use the premades.

eventhorizen

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

10 May 2005 at 09:08 - 80

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

You can think what you want about PvE players, but your wrong. A good PvE player would not get "creamed" in tombs. Because a *good* PvE player already has a good grasp on teamwork. There are good PvE players and bad ones, just like there are good PvP players and bad ones.

Dont think that all PvE players are horrible. The best player is one that understands all aspects of the game, not just the PvP side.

You need to look at what your wanting to do, making *ELITE* skills avalible to all. They would need to change the name if this happends. You say that it handiecaps the PvPers gaming, then in your next thought you say that an *ELITE* skill would matter not.

This is good, and it needs to stay the way it is. If you require further explanation read my above post.
Dude its a fact that the best players are going to come from the PvE side, all that rushing straight into a PvP character does is narrow your veiwpoint on characters abilities, give you instant gratification without the learning process, and create whiners.
This game is about how you make your character. Be it PvP PvE or whatever, it comes down to the skills you use, and the attributes you build up, as well as knowing how other people play too. Thus it would appear to me that the players who are going to be able to build the best characters from what they have access to are the players with the greatest knowledge about the entire game.

If you dont learn how to play Guild Wars, you are going to fail at it.

Let me ask Lazarus this question, do you hide behind rocks if you are a caster to take out enemy rangers? Thats something I discovered ingame, and its no big deal knowing it, but iv never used a PvP only character.

Manderlock

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Crimson ScS

W/N

10 May 2005 at 09:12 - 81

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Where did this asinine concept of 'working' in order to play a game come from? everquest?

PvE is, bluntly, boring as watching paint dry for me and a lot of other people who like a lot of the game concepts and gameplay guild wars has. Its work - something i do not for its own merit but because i wish to do something fun later. This is not nor should it ever be a function in a game. Saying that you need to 'earn' something just to play the game competitively is the worst kind of nonsense i can dream up.

How is adding elite skill trainers into the game giving pvp a massive advantage over pve characters? How is adding quests that unlock elite skills giving pvp characters a massive advantage over pve characters? Show how *one* of the options presented in this thread favors pvp characters before you say stuff like that.
Flat out - casual players that don't have time to grind like mofos are at a disadvantage with this system. They will enter arena, meet one of your fearsome l337 kiddies who does nothing but farm elites and runes all day, get smashed over and over because they can't put the time investment into becoming 'good players' even though they'd likely kick the l337 kiddies butt if they had all the upgrades and skills available to them.

Dedication and skill are all wonderful things when they actually mean something to the game you're playing. PvP is not like PvE in guild wars, and will not be the same in any game right up until the point actual AI is created. Its like saying you have to master basketweaving to become the greatest swordsman who ever lived - nonsense.

Laz
Im sorry Laz, but in tombs I have yet to go aginst these "gods of PvP you talk about". Some battles the PvP players where so pathetic, Ive had a harder time fighting my way out of a wet paper sack.

Here is the thing both PvP and PvE complain about the capture sig, and the good ones are are extreamly hard to find. Hence the name *ELITE*.

eventhorizen

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

10 May 2005 at 09:13 - 82

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Where did this asinine concept of 'working' in order to play a game come from? everquest?

PvE is, bluntly, boring as watching paint dry for me and a lot of other people who like a lot of the game concepts and gameplay guild wars has. Its work - something i do not for its own merit but because i wish to do something fun later. This is not nor should it ever be a function in a game. Saying that you need to 'earn' something just to play the game competitively is the worst kind of nonsense i can dream up.

How is adding elite skill trainers into the game giving pvp a massive advantage over pve characters? How is adding quests that unlock elite skills giving pvp characters a massive advantage over pve characters? Show how *one* of the options presented in this thread favors pvp characters before you say stuff like that.

Flat out - casual players that don't have time to grind like mofos are at a disadvantage with this system. They will enter arena, meet one of your fearsome l337 kiddies who does nothing but farm elites and runes all day, get smashed over and over because they can't put the time investment into becoming 'good players' even though they'd likely kick the l337 kiddies butt if they had all the upgrades and skills available to them.

Dedication and skill are all wonderful things when they actually mean something to the game you're playing. PvP is not like PvE in guild wars, and will not be the same in any game right up until the point actual AI is created. Its like saying you have to master basketweaving to become the greatest swordsman who ever lived - nonsense.

Laz

level 1-10 random grouping 4v4 best kill ratio so far 18 fights to nil.
level 1-15 random grouping 4v4 best kill ratio so far 12 - 0
Fort Koga, level 18, managed to take part in 4 victories versus team ALL level 20, but got bored with char and started a new one.

Edit/ my uber hammer of doom doesnt exist either, with all the time I spend in the arenas iv to buy all my skills and armor and weapons, and I dont usually have a lot, but anyway, continue saying how youll destroy me in pvp, I think it would actually be the other way around.
Definition of skill : killing players 3-4 levels higher than you REPEATEDLY for a few hours, before eventually losing

gg team.