the truth about the dervish
Crom The Pale
It's not possible to hold agro on any mob anymore, but a Dervish can cripple all adjacent foes with one 5energy skill, thats as close to tanking as you really can get unless your solo.
Dutch Masterr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
It's not possible to hold agro on any mob anymore, but a Dervish can cripple all adjacent foes with one 5energy skill, thats as close to tanking as you really can get unless your solo.
well, 3 adjacent foes, but its still a good ability to have.
ogami_ito
^^^
1. You ae thinking just about Crippling Sweep? You CAN cripple all adjacent mobs...Aura of Thorns. Better IMHO than Crippling Sweep because it adds an enchant (better for energy management, powering Mystic Sweep, etc), and because when it goes, adjacent mobs are also bleeding.
2. I know if the group is VERY good...better than 99% of all PUGs... and every one of these good players is fully paying attention to what they are doing, you can still somewhat "tank". But for everyone else, that's just not the case. No Warrior or Derv keeps agro when party members move into agro range and attack. So what does TANK mean in this context?
It seems to me that when people talk about TANKs, all they are really saying is that the toon can take agro while requireing less monk-maintenance. From that perspective, Dervishes are MUCH better than warriors. A monk casts Reversal of Fortune on a Derv, and that Derv gains (on average) 150 NET hit-points and 4 energy (+33hp for Divine, up to 50 or so for the RoF itself & up to 50 damage negated, and 12hp and 4e for mysticism). The monks can skip over certain spells too. For example, the Monks own Healing Breaze gives +8 regen to the Derv tank, plus 33 hp from Divine...all for 10e. The Dervs Mystic Regen usually gives minimum +9 (and often +12,+15) regen for 20 seconds, not including a +20% enchant mod, which extends it another 5 seconds. And then there is Healing Light... Monks cast this powerfull heal on Dervs (followed up with Dwana's Kiss) for 5e every 4 seconds, and get back 4e after every cast.
I have decided...Dervs probably "tank" better than warriors for most groups. I say this because for most groups, a pure tank is worthless. If mobs don't attack the tank, you have a meat shield that does little damage but is not taking agro. I'm pretty sure that the Dervs single-target damage output is close or equals a warriors. Maybe not the DPS of a Dragon Slash warrior...but definitely more than an Evicerate warrior. A "Defensive" Derv absolutely out-damages a defensive warrior. And when you add in multiple-target damage, and lower monk maintenance, I see Dervs comming out ahead.
1. You ae thinking just about Crippling Sweep? You CAN cripple all adjacent mobs...Aura of Thorns. Better IMHO than Crippling Sweep because it adds an enchant (better for energy management, powering Mystic Sweep, etc), and because when it goes, adjacent mobs are also bleeding.
2. I know if the group is VERY good...better than 99% of all PUGs... and every one of these good players is fully paying attention to what they are doing, you can still somewhat "tank". But for everyone else, that's just not the case. No Warrior or Derv keeps agro when party members move into agro range and attack. So what does TANK mean in this context?
It seems to me that when people talk about TANKs, all they are really saying is that the toon can take agro while requireing less monk-maintenance. From that perspective, Dervishes are MUCH better than warriors. A monk casts Reversal of Fortune on a Derv, and that Derv gains (on average) 150 NET hit-points and 4 energy (+33hp for Divine, up to 50 or so for the RoF itself & up to 50 damage negated, and 12hp and 4e for mysticism). The monks can skip over certain spells too. For example, the Monks own Healing Breaze gives +8 regen to the Derv tank, plus 33 hp from Divine...all for 10e. The Dervs Mystic Regen usually gives minimum +9 (and often +12,+15) regen for 20 seconds, not including a +20% enchant mod, which extends it another 5 seconds. And then there is Healing Light... Monks cast this powerfull heal on Dervs (followed up with Dwana's Kiss) for 5e every 4 seconds, and get back 4e after every cast.
I have decided...Dervs probably "tank" better than warriors for most groups. I say this because for most groups, a pure tank is worthless. If mobs don't attack the tank, you have a meat shield that does little damage but is not taking agro. I'm pretty sure that the Dervs single-target damage output is close or equals a warriors. Maybe not the DPS of a Dragon Slash warrior...but definitely more than an Evicerate warrior. A "Defensive" Derv absolutely out-damages a defensive warrior. And when you add in multiple-target damage, and lower monk maintenance, I see Dervs comming out ahead.
Crom The Pale
I believe the role of a war from the start of GW in my mind was more of an interupter than a true tank. They have the ability to charge into enemy fire and reach a caster where they can unleash skills like Savage slash, distruptingh chop or distracting swipe.
The new AI changes actually make wars better at this since they dont face the complete damage output of a mob, but only a portion will pay attention to them.
I see the Dervish tank as a class that will charge in first, maybe with vow of silence up, and force the enemy to waste skills/spells on him that wont kill him. He cant hold the agro but even by making them waste a couple of high dmg skills that would need to recharge can give the party a fast advantage in a battle.
After initial contact the dervish would seek out the largest group of adjacent foes and start swinging. By causing AoE damage with his scythe and skills he forces the monks to spread out there healing and they become less effective.
I see a well balanced team with both a Warrior and a Dervish. The Dervish moves in and causes havok while the Warrior seeks out and deals with high priority targets. As the Warrior sets up one target for a spike the Dervish softens up as many of the others as possible so subsiquent spikes are faster and kills mount up quick.
The Dervish is here to stay and he has earned a place next to any Warrior on a well organized team!
The new AI changes actually make wars better at this since they dont face the complete damage output of a mob, but only a portion will pay attention to them.
I see the Dervish tank as a class that will charge in first, maybe with vow of silence up, and force the enemy to waste skills/spells on him that wont kill him. He cant hold the agro but even by making them waste a couple of high dmg skills that would need to recharge can give the party a fast advantage in a battle.
After initial contact the dervish would seek out the largest group of adjacent foes and start swinging. By causing AoE damage with his scythe and skills he forces the monks to spread out there healing and they become less effective.
I see a well balanced team with both a Warrior and a Dervish. The Dervish moves in and causes havok while the Warrior seeks out and deals with high priority targets. As the Warrior sets up one target for a spike the Dervish softens up as many of the others as possible so subsiquent spikes are faster and kills mount up quick.
The Dervish is here to stay and he has earned a place next to any Warrior on a well organized team!
jesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogami_ito
Warrior as an interrupter since the start of GW.. *sigh* OK, let's count all the interrupt skills that warriors have.
1. Critical Chop (conditional)
2. Disrupting Chop - normal attack speed
3. Savage Slash (unusable with current recharge)
4. Distracting Blow (nice skill actually, but just as usable to a warrior secondary)
5. Skull Crack (elite)
So let's see, 5 interrupts for an entire class? Yeah, they sure look like interrupters to me. Yes, knockdowns interrupt, and you could count those, but warriors as a whole were not meant to interrupt anymore than rangers were meant to use pets.
Quote: Originally Posted by Crom The Pale A War can bost his armor for a short time thus allowing him to charge into a mob and deal some damage or inflict a condtion then get back to his monks for some healing. He can instantly bost his armor to deal with most spikes but for most pays a price in mobilitly.
A dervish using the right enchants can sustain perment healing and raise his armor allowing him sustained tanking. Mostly at the expence of having to maintian enchants and cutting down on his offence.
Now im talking about primary classes only here, when you start adding in secondarys the whole thing spirals out of control as both are very adept at using other classes skills to efficiently bost themselves. 1. A warrior can keep constant armor - skills like Watch Yourself! and Defy Pain can be kept up indefinetely, as can stances with the help of On Your Knees!.
2. A dervish has lower base AL to start, and none of the absorbtion abilities that a warrior has against physical damage. Relying on enchants in itself is a weakness when you fight in areas with heavy enchant removal.
3. Neither Dervish nor Warrior have very good second class synergy, most look for skills that can be used with 0 point investment.
Quote: Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
As for those that fear the use of enchantments vow of silence gives some nice protection, not complete, but will keep most of your enchantments safe.
For 5...9 seconds, you cannot be the target of Spells, and you cannot cast Spells.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesh
2. A dervish has lower base AL to start, and none of the absorbtion abilities that a warrior has against physical damage. Relying on enchants in itself is a weakness when you fight in areas with heavy enchant removal. .
I don’t think this is that big of a huge weakness for most areas and for most groups. It can be a weakness when fighting against combinations of melee + enchant removals, without good backup. And that weakness comes from exposure to increased physical damage. Quite a few of these enchants would harm enemies when they are removed though. On the other hand, to effectively keep a warrior healed against elemental damage still usually requires monks place some enchants on them. So when those enchants get stripped, there are fewer covering enchants and protections (accept the warriors has his own damage-reduction skills to help). It comes down to this: what’s more important, beneficial enchants or beneficial stances / shouts.Quote:
So here...are you complaining / lamenting warriors don't have enough skills do the job of interrupter, which you believe is the primary role for the class? I have never heard this before. Interesting point of view though.|
Originally Posted by ogami_ito
I say this because for most groups, a pure tank is worthless. If mobs don't attack the tank, you have a meat shield that does little damage but is not taking agro. I'm pretty sure that the Dervs single-target damage output is close or equals a warriors. Maybe not the DPS of a Dragon Slash warrior...but definitely more than an Evicerate warrior. A "Defensive" Derv absolutely out-damages a defensive warrior. And when you add in multiple-target damage, and lower monk maintenance, I see Dervs comming out ahead.
QFT. This is why I don't like dervishes as they are, it seems like they can play the defensive role too easily, while still maintaining damage. Do I have one? Of course, I have to try one before they get the nerf bat.
ogami_ito
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesh
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3. Neither Dervish nor Warrior have very good second class synergy, most look for skills that can be used with 0 point investment skills .
I think when a class mainly relies on second-class synergy, it means the class has more weaknesses. Dervishes make great use of 0-investment skills like wild-blow, Mending Touch (not a zero-point skill, but good anyway), some sin skills, etc. But I would say that it makes it less interesting.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jesh
QFT. This is why I don't like dervishes as they are, it seems like they can play the defensive role too easily, while still maintaining damage. Do I have one? Of course, I have to try one before they get the nerf bat.
Wait a minute… you are saying you don’t like them because they take the defensive role too easily while still outputting big damage? It sounds like you are saying they are too good and therefore will be nerfed. Is that what you mean?
Crom The Pale
Ok let me count the ranger interupts....
Distracting shot, Savage shot, Broadhead arrow, so I guess you dont count rangers as inteupters either? Here is a simple formula for a war interupter: Savage slash + Distracting swipe + Flourish. If you dont think this works..... That was this build + 7 hench, I was kicked out of a party after telling them my build As for vow of silence it has a 10 second recharge and since most all other enchants a dervish uses last 20-30seconds you can recast duiring the window when its down and then recast vow of silence, it works ive done it. As for secondarys there is an infinite combination of skills that work for both dervish and wars. My Dervish runs both a Kinetic armor build and a 'Go for the eyes' build. My Warrior runs both Apply poison and Meteor shower builds. Ive run many other builds with both and can say for a fact that ive never run into a problem finding a good use for any secondary for either of these. While a war can use shouts to keep his armor up, the new nerf not withstanding, his stances are as easily removed as any enchant. As I belive many have stated a Dervish absorbs damage with massive self healing much like a monk would rather than mitigating the damage with high armor. A war has relitively poor self heals, both having negative aspects to balance them. If your arument is based on armor that can be maintained then an Elementalist out classes a war as a tank. Armor of earh + Silver Armor + Kinetic Armor + Obsidian Flesh, and with some good energy management this can be maintained almost indefinately.... As stated before, they do not tank in the same manner and do not serve the same purpose in parties. The builds ive listed are not meant to be the only way these can be used just a small handfull of the many ways they are used with great effectiveness. I've run a war as a degen using virolence and a dervish as a party healer with wind prayers. The possibilities are only limited by your imagination.
Guardian of the Light
When it comes to tankage dervishes and warriors are pretty tied
I would suggest bringing one of each for each situation. That is of course if you take 2 melee characters anyway. ogami_ito
^^^BTW I put Go For The Eyes on my derv hero. I usually have it on at least two heros to power derv crits and MM-Army crits. Works great on the derv hero.
Grandmaster
warrior:
low self heal high armor fast, one target offense capability to interrupt minor condition spreading dervish HUGE self heal low to decent armor (70+24 if using conviction) slower, multi-target offense cannot interrupt massive condition spreading where before a team would take 2 warriors for the frontlines, I believe it should now be one warrior and one dervish. Both have their benefits and drawbacks, but both will be able to survive the front lines.
whobitz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
Ok let me count the ranger interupts....
Distracting shot, Savage shot, Broadhead arrow, so I guess you dont count rangers as inteupters either? Hold up, lets look at this again... Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Magebane Shot {E}, Punishing Shot {E}, Broad Head Arrow {E} (indirectly), Disrutping Lunge, and Concussion Shot are regular attack skills that interrupt. Incendiary Arrows and Choking Gas are preps that cause interruption. Along the lines of BHA with dazed, you could even go as far as Smoke Trap or Bestial Mauling (though that gets into KDs and would have to include warrior KDs and even stuff like Spike Trap). So that's 8 skills, 9 with BHA (10 with Smoke Trap) that interrupt for Rangers. I guess warriors have 6 or 7 (adding to jesh's list with Agonizing Chop and Dwarven Battle Stance). Granted, Disrupting Lunge isn't always great, and Incendiary Arrows can't be kept up, but Savage Slash is 10 energy with a 20 sec. recharge, Critical Chop and Agonizing Chop are both conditional, the latter having normal attack speed, just like Disrupting Chop. Rangers also have 3 elites dedicated to interupting, warriors have 1 that costs 9 adrenaline and Dwarven Battle Stance. All in all, ranger interrupts are just better. See here for a not really complete list. Well that was fun, but back on topic, it's not amazingly hard for a Dervish to maintain 109 armor with ~17 damage reduction from foes with conditions (try using Veil of Thorns for that cripple mentioned earlier) and 9+ regen. On the other hand, it's not hard for a warrior to maintain 170+ armor, 300 or even 600+ hp (900+ for a period of time), and have no KDs. The difference is armor vs. self heals (though imo Warriors will always win when facing enough enchantment removal until a good Vow of Silence tank build is made). Those examples are both in a highly tanking sense, and that's probably only useful somewhere like DoA; otherwise, the "tanks" should have some defense with some offense (seems to be the popular opinion) whether they be warrior or dervish.
jesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogami_ito
Wait a minute… you are saying you don’t like them because they take the defensive role too easily while still outputting big damage? It sounds like you are saying they are too good and therefore will be nerfed. Is that what you mean? |
Yes.
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While a war can use shouts to keep his armor up, the new nerf not withstanding, his stances are as easily removed as any enchant.
OK, the only stances that you should be using are Sprint and Frenzy, unless you're using Flail and Enraging in PvE. The only way these get removed is Wild Blow/Throw. I don't think there are any monsters that use Wild Strike. whobits: somehow those slipped past me, I swear I looked through all my skills. Does Disrupting Accuracy count for rangers? =P I've always wanted to try that with 2 or more GftE spammers. Anyways.. I agree with whobits on the warrior tank thing.
Crom The Pale
I wasn't trying to say that Warrior made better interupters than Rangers, just that you really don't require a skill bar full of interupts to get the job done.
As for the recharge on Savage Slash youll note I paired it with Flurish for instant recharging. Its not the quality of the skills that matter in the end its the skill of the player. If you can't time your attacks then even the best ranger interupts are worthless. And as we've all stated many times now tanking is not just about armor. The best a war can do is mitigate damage with high armor, but he still takes damage and with poor healing hes just prolonging his death if he doesnt get out and find his monk. A Dervish can boost his armor with inscriptions up to 85 + conviction 24 and Armor of Sanctity to reduce damage from foes with conditions by another 17 points. PLUSS a Dervish has massive self heals so any damage not mitigated is healed and he can continue to attack. Yes in an enchantment striping battle the Dervish is at a disadvantage, but when was the last time you took a Warrior into the Tomb of Kings? As for Warrior builds I was in no way suggesting that interuption was the ONLY build a war can run. If you read my whole post you'll note a named two other builds my Warrior runs, and those are just a very small handfull of all the diffent builds that I use. For both the Dervish and the Warrior his build should reflect the teams balance. In some cases that means a war needs to use interupts in others it means he has to take lots of self heals from his secondary proff. A dervish my require fewer enchants and more damage skills if the monks have him coverd or he may need to take more condition spreading skills to put pressure on enemy monks to lift them. In the end it all boils down to both the Dervish and the Warrior having many diffent builds and each being able to play as a tank under certain conditions. IMO the biggest problem facing Dervish's is not there ability to tank, its a total lack of any interupts.
Cebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainman
ok when i 1st got nightfall i made a dervish but whenever i wanted a party for a mission no1 wanted me. today i asked every1 why the hates dervish'. they all replied with they are weak and defensless like assasins. i was shocked that some people would think that!
for 1 thing assasins are strong and defenseful but saying dervish are like assasin??? the only think in common is the armour defense (70 AL). dervish have loads of skills to do amazing damage and protect themselves. i could go right now stick a few skills together and it would turn out a good build. the problem with guild wars is that it is inhabited by idiots that think because we have 10 AL less than warriors we cant tqank or take damage at all! they treat dervish' like they are casters! i am very tired of them saying this and not letting me into a party JUST BECAUSE IM A DERVISH. i mean you have got to agree that dervish are not being treated as well as they should. it seems that almost everyone hates them! the worse part is that the nf missions are hard to do with heroes. well anyway this is my thread about people treating dervish wrong. thanks Just to clarify - I've not read the rest of this thread I'm only responding to this. I used to feel this way...As soon as I saw the armor level of dervishes I thought "Yup, the Nightfall Sin". I wont say I was totally wrong because you still get some morons who cannot play them and die in 2 seconds but I am pleasantly surprised at how good they are. On the odd occaision I decide to go with a human group I don't mind having one in my group. THe only thing I don't like is when I'm invited into a group by someone who then proceeds to invite 5 dervishes...it's not dervish hate - it's just not a balanced team  I reckon when I've finished off my other characters I may try Dervish for myself. I still can't stand Assassins though The one thing which may annoy me though is the enchantments. Have you ever noticed the Margonite Dervishes? They spend about 30 seconds applying enchantments...if you ever want to kill an AI dervish just have someone sat next to them echoing Chilblains....they wont fight then...they'll just keep putting their enchants back on! 
ogami_ito
I think 5 Dervishes on a team could work well. Heck, I did a great run in Sorrow's Furnish with 6 warriors and 2 henchy monks (all the other humans were dumb barrage rangers who would not invite warriors into the group). 5 dervs, (with two goining D/P with Go for The Eyes!, 1 going Melandru/Wearying, 1 Balthazar, and 1 Ebon Dusk user) coupled with 2 monks (one Healing Light / Dwana's Kiss , the other spams Aegis and Reversal of Fortune )and an MM / orders of pain necro would absolutely kick butt...and do well even against enchant removing mobs.
Isil`Zha
Quote:
Originally Posted by crucifix
i really wish people would start to read. The reason i hate dervs is because the entire class is based solely on enchants. its too conditional for my liking and i like to have a bit of a backup for a class instead of just having one lifeline. what happens when a dervs enchants fall? they die.
Wrong - first, they can be reapplied fairly quickly, and secondly - when it comes to Mesmers or other enchantment stripping classes, I simply change my tactics to use their stripping in my favor.
As mentioned, losing enchants gives energy back for a Dervish - and then, almost every Dervish enchantment either is beneficial to the Dervish when ended, or does harm to adjacent/nearby foes when ended.
Fallen Hunter
Well, the dervish is probably my favourite class. I have finished the game with my dervish. I did have trouble getting into groups, but it was usually because they already had one rather than their prejudice against them. I have out-tanked warriors with my dervish. Using enough enchantments, you can be nearly invincible! I don't see what the problem is. I mean, comparing them to an assassin? I have an assassin, and i know what they mean - in the wrong hands (namely mine :P) they are squishy as hell. Even in the right hands if you can take their initial attacks you can usually kill them easily. However, the dervish is capable of absorbing a lot of damage, perhaps even more than a warrior with the right build. With the right build you can do A LOT more damage than a warrior, and dervishes are unmatched for inflicting conditions. And even teams with too many dervishes can be good - I got shiro down to 1/4 health in gate of madness in a team with 5 dervishes.
Cold
Soul Barbs anyone? Just kidding
Dervish is a bad tank, if you want a tank on enchantments take earth ele: Obsidian Flesh, +20 armor Kinetic Armor, +92 armor Armor of Earth, +67 armor Stoneflesh Aura, -37 dmg reduction Sliver Armor, 55% block, +41dmg for each attack or spell Stone Daggers - for Kinetic Armor Glyph of Elemental Power Channeling - for energy Now we talking. This IS a TANK that takes 0 dmg even from lvl28 mobs. Plus it's a killing machine with Sliver Armor on. And here is my warrior, just one interrupt. Try it with dervish and post here the picture 
Etrik
Quote:
Originally Posted by whobitz
Hold up, lets look at this again...
Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, Magebane Shot {E}, Punishing Shot {E}, Broad Head Arrow {E} (indirectly), Disrutping Lunge, and Concussion Shot are regular attack skills that interrupt. Incendiary Arrows and Choking Gas are preps that cause interruption. Along the lines of BHA with dazed, you could even go as far as Smoke Trap or Bestial Mauling (though that gets into KDs and would have to include warrior KDs and even stuff like Spike Trap). So that's 8 skills, 9 with BHA (10 with Smoke Trap) that interrupt for Rangers. I guess warriors have 6 or 7 (adding to jesh's list with Agonizing Chop and Dwarven Battle Stance). Granted, Disrupting Lunge isn't always great, and Incendiary Arrows can't be kept up, but Savage Slash is 10 energy with a 20 sec. recharge, Critical Chop and Agonizing Chop are both conditional, the latter having normal attack speed, just like Disrupting Chop. Rangers also have 3 elites dedicated to interupting, warriors have 1 that costs 9 adrenaline and Dwarven Battle Stance. All in all, ranger interrupts are just better. See here for a not really complete list. Well that was fun, but back on topic, it's not amazingly hard for a Dervish to maintain 109 armor with ~17 damage reduction from foes with conditions (try using Veil of Thorns for that cripple mentioned earlier) and 9+ regen. On the other hand, it's not hard for a warrior to maintain 170+ armor, 300 or even 600+ hp (900+ for a period of time), and have no KDs. The difference is armor vs. self heals (though imo Warriors will always win when facing enough enchantment removal until a good Vow of Silence tank build is made). Those examples are both in a highly tanking sense, and that's probably only useful somewhere like DoA; otherwise, the "tanks" should have some defense with some offense (seems to be the popular opinion) whether they be warrior or dervish. There will never be a good VoS tank, because VoS means your monks can't heal you. It's highly conditional and - imho - limited to 1v1 skirmishes against casters. You can pwn them then, however.
jesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
I wasn't trying to say that Warrior made better interupters than Rangers, just that you really don't require a skill bar full of interupts to get the job done.
As for the recharge on Savage Slash youll note I paired it with Flurish for instant recharging. .................... As for Warrior builds I was in no way suggesting that interuption was the ONLY build a war can run. If you read my whole post you'll note a named two other builds my Warrior runs, and those are just a very small handfull of all the diffent builds that I use. You don't need a skillbar full, but apparently you need an elite. A ranger with Savage Shot can do the same as your whole skillbar, most likely - and without using up their elite. I did read your whole post, and I did see the other warrior builds you mentioned. If you read my post, you would know what I think of them. Anyways, if you're taking a D/W, you can just as easily use Distracting Blow as a warrior can.
Crom The Pale
Yes I can and do use D/W for distracting blow, but what happens when I use D/ranger or D/Necro or D/Elemental or D/Monk?
Warriors do have an Elite interupt, Skull Crack that causes dazed. Yes it needs adren to work so its not as good as broad head arrow. You can doubt my builds(of which ive only listed a miniscule part not even all my skills or how they work) all you like, but ive proven over and over again that they work if you understand how to use the skills. Lasty as for my Dervish being able to solo Glint with the aid of hench - and the help of a war interupt.... Had to work a lot this week and then there was getting to the desert and ascending but I managed to get the job done. Thats one nasty skill Glint has that causes exhastion...nearly did me in, but as you can see..10% bonus and no dp!
jesh
Crom, I UNDERSTAND your skill builds, I just think they are very very sub optimal.
Beating Glint? Whoopdeedoo. She doesn't even have 10k hp anymore. You could probably beat her with nothing but a res on your bar. It's PVE! Anything works! My little brother beat the game on his monk without using a skill once. There's a difference between what works, and what works best.
Crom The Pale
Beating Glint was just an answer to a challenge in this thread, not meant to prove anything.
As for my builds everyone has there own play style, mine work for me. They may not work for you. Same holds true for your builds. The 'best' build is the one you can use to have the most fun. I often find that Meteor Shower + Glyph of Essence + StoneFist gauntlets and a skill bar full of adren axe attacks on my Warrior gives me 'optimal' crowd control, knockdowns, interupts and damage. For my Dervish i've not found a 'optimal' build I can use anywhere but I've found that it is very versitile and can run many diffent builds with equal sucess. The build I used against Glint was actually a bad build to be honest, VoS is useless against her/him? due to Glints attacks being skills not spells. However for a nice VoS build I do swap in "Watch Yourself!" and Lions Comfort for the two war attacks. To complete the thought this thread began with... The truth about the Dervish is that it can mold itself to many diffent roles in an organized team. Be it as a high armor tank with elemental or war secondary skills or for condition spreading using ranger/necro skills or even back up healing with some monk/rit skills. All of these are complimented nicely by the existing Dervish skills and make it a very versitle profession.
LifeInfusion
Th eproblem isn't that Dervishes are weak. There are just too many of them!
Van vincing
If ppl fink dervishes are based on enchancement then they shud try removal their any of their enhancement and see wht happens (vital boon, stagger force, better to keep their enchancement on than off dun u fink???
)
G4ymBoy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van vincing
If ppl fink dervishes are based on enchancement then they shud try removal their any of their enhancement and see wht happens (vital boon, stagger force, better to keep their enchancement on than off dun u fink???
)
Grammer just went out the window...Dervishes are good with enchantment manipulation is what i think he is trying to say. Rending vital boon and staggering force can be very beneficial and we all know there are some great enchant rending skills on the dervish, this screams "manipulate your enchants when you play a dervish..."
Van vincing
LOL the answer to why ppl dun want u is probably because they already have like 3 dervishes in their team.
Sum players knw wht dervishes can do (heal, dmg, tank) so if they already have a dervish healer they re probaly lookin for a pure monk healer, dervishes can become other classes, except they wont be exactly like those classes (pure tanker, pure healer) but their ability with avatars and other skills can easily take over other class skills (like heart of fury, every melee class want it) or even the avatars (Im sure casters and rangers wud love to have lyssa) So dun worry, dervishes are one of the strongest class there'll ever be PS: u have no idea how many monks are dyin to be able to get avatar of dwyna and how many warriors wud luv to see wht happens if they can use avatar of balthazar
Xiaxhou of Trinity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho^
Yeh same here,
When I first made my dervish it was almost impossible to get in a party. For every mission I spent lik 40-50 mins looking for a groud. But now that I finished the game and decided to start PvP, its much easier to get into a party in TA and HA if you're a Dervish. Well welcome to the club. The thing is that, like in HA and GvG, there is always a "meta", or build/class combo that seems to "dominate" and is popular. A while back, people used to think that only a N/Mo could MM, and anything else was nooby. They woudln't take warriors unless they were whammos. Mesmers were shunned by PvE. Only a few people actually saw through this stereotyping, hence the mesmers that have survived since then (just one example). Recently, with new updates and etc, groups seem to be taking anything and everything (though I suppose assassins and dervishes are being resented). Paragons sometimes have trouble finding groups too, since they say "oh monks can heal better than them" or "just get a ranger". Something the GW PvE community experiences, but I see is slowly dying away. One problem I see with PvE atm is finding groups, since people are becoming spread out through the campaigns. Soon many outposts and missions will be near empty with all the new campaigns (solution?) RVallant
Well I rolled with a dervish (still do it's my new main class) and the survivability is there, considering I almost got Survivor with him. I rolled with him all the way up through the second mission without dieing in starter armour. I'm convinced if I had bothered to upgrade the armour then he wouldn't have been killed at the end-of-mission boss, but I digress it's not too difficult with a dervish thus far, also it wasn't as if I was even trying to survive in the first place it just happened to be there.
Also while the Dervish's strength AND weakness happens to be enchantment based it's other strength lies in it's versatility. You don't have to run an enchantment heavy Dervish and in situations where enchantment stripping is common place then targetting and taking out said enemies is usually the way to go. Considering a monk or any other class being stripped of enchantments that it relies on will usually result in severe difficulties I think a Dervish doesn't get impacted so much seeing how when an enchantment is stripped off a Dervish they're getting healed and free energy into the mix, often enough health and energy (unless you're skimping on Mysticism in which case, why are you bothering here?) that you're being given an early-warning/free buff up to take out said enchantment removing enemies. The only time an enchant stripping area will wipe you is if you happen to solo with an enchant heavy build. GW is a team game so your henchmen and partymembers should be aware and there to make up for your shortcomings there in the same way that you would for them (i.e. Chilblains enemies are always a priority interupting target for Jin). In regards to versatility, running a scythe build is another alternative to running an enchant build so it's a moot point anyway and I really don't see the arguement for it. Ok fair enough I may be new to the class and still getting to grips with it but I don't struggle with enchantment stripping thus far and I know that to run around like a moron with an enchant-heavy build in danger areas is going to get me in trouble so I don't do it :P
strcpy
The only time enchant stripping really gets tough is if there is a lot of it - every once in a while you will get a spawn that has 4-6 necro's with Chilblains that decide you are an easy target - you better have an alternate way to survive or just leave the fray for a moment and let a couple get killed.
The thing I like about it is that where we are weak warriors are strong, where warriors are weak we are strong, and most of the game we are about equal. So it meshes well to have one Dervish and one Warrior for tanks. ArKaiN
Quote:
Originally Posted by strcpy
The only time enchant stripping really gets tough is if there is a lot of it - every once in a while you will get a spawn that has 4-6 necro's with Chilblains that decide you are an easy target - you better have an alternate way to survive or just leave the fray for a moment and let a couple get killed.
The thing I like about it is that where we are weak warriors are strong, where warriors are weak we are strong, and most of the game we are about equal. So it meshes well to have one Dervish and one Warrior for tanks. I'm sorry, but is this really what happens? In my experience, unless you have like 12 mysticism(even then, actually. it`s not like 4 energy's a lot), and mystic vigor and/or regeneration gets stripped in the middle of a big battle, I either have no energy to recast it (because I mistakingly spent it spamming attacks) or I just die from my low armor combined with no regen. People keep harping about how we have 4 pips of regen and mystic regeneration, but lets face it, thing aren't always ideal, and when they aren't, warriors are still sitting behind that huge armor. Derishes CAN be built around being a good tank, but given the same player skill, I do belive warriors are better suited for this purpouse. It's a trade really, we get worse tankability but we get high damage+aoe.
Age
This is what I think of the Dervs yes they are a lot like the Sins with 70al armour and being in melee range as with Sins they can do thier hit and runs shadow fo haste.Dervs don't do nearly as much dmge as a Warrior can.The only real problem is putting a balanced group together and when I was playing my Monk through game they were clicking on me left right and centre even worse than Sins in Factions.You must not forget those few Mesmers over in cornor that need to get through the game and can be very usefull especially in the Gates of Madness.
Balanced groups is the real proplem lets hope Anet doesn't make these type of char agian or none at all.There just isn't enough of us Monks to go around.
CagedinSanity
I think I have missed something entirely. I never had much of a problem finding a group (got NF on December), untill I get to certain areas where there's like, 5 people. Can't get a group there!
Perfected Shadow
The truth about Dervishes? They kick ass, it's the only prof I managed to reach Legendary Survivor with. Only the master difficulty quests gave me large trouble and I haven't finished all those yet ><. I played through Factions and NF, almost always being the only melee char in every quest/mission. It helps a being the only tank because Earth enchantments + Monk Prot enchantments + solid Monk healing makes you quite unbreakable.
Divine Soldier
I'm new but with only basic spells and level 13 i hit extremely well rivaling my friend's level 20 W/Mo. I am a Scythe master and I dont have he best armor or the best scythe, bt you know what? I still don't suck i can kill 4 level 11 Skales in one hit. Also i have non trouble finiding a group, in fact people want to group with me.
RVallant
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArKaiN
I'm sorry, but is this really what happens?
In my experience, unless you have like 12 mysticism(even then, actually. it`s not like 4 energy's a lot), and mystic vigor and/or regeneration gets stripped in the middle of a big battle, I either have no energy to recast it (because I mistakingly spent it spamming attacks) or I just die from my low armor combined with no regen. People keep harping about how we have 4 pips of regen and mystic regeneration, but lets face it, thing aren't always ideal, and when they aren't, warriors are still sitting behind that huge armor. Derishes CAN be built around being a good tank, but given the same player skill, I do belive warriors are better suited for this purpouse. It's a trade really, we get worse tankability but we get high damage+aoe. It's not like Dervishes have a lot of energy in the first place anyway, 25 energy, 4 pips of regen, you're gaining four per enchantment stripped with the regen on and hey presto you've got 5 energy right there which, as you should know is what most of the low-end enchantments/attacks/whatever cost to cast (Avatar of Dwayna being a plain on wild self-healing hex breaker for that 5 energy too.) I understand things aren't always ideal in the battlefield, but then why are you spamming skills/attacks/enchants rather than taking into account what's going on before you do so? You should never really be out of energy with a dervish peroid even if you only use two or three enchantments that's 12 energy back right there when they've gone down, enough to either wipe out the threat or re-apply important enchantments (heck by the time you've put on Mystic Regen, you've got the energy for mystic vigour) and let's not forget Signet of Pious Light or Vital Boon, the former can end whatever you have left in your favor while vital boon is a 5e heal right there. Still, I do agree Warriors have more viable tanking options and Dervishes can be a tempermental class in the wrong situations (what class isn't though?)
Dross
I've found that dervishes are very good at staying alive, if u know how to play them. And dervishes are the highest dmg melee class out there: crits will regularly go over 100 dmg, sometimes into the 200s. Also, why do people say dervs are an energy black hole for monks? maybe the stupid ones are, but ive never found that dervishes need constant healing when i monk. Take this situation for example: My melandru dervish was in a group with another dervish, 2 mesmers, a ranger, an ele, and a monk. This is in a PuG. We didn't have a single death (except for pets), and the monk didn't complain once (which typically happens even in really balanced groups). So much for being a black hole on healing.
And whats this about sins? theres no similarity between dervs and sins except 70 armor. Contrary to most people's belief, the purpose of the sin is not to frontline: its to ASSASSINATE. Why do u think sins are so popular in PvP? the best role of a sin is to shadow step in, kill the important casters, and then shadow step out. Don't compare dervs to sins: they are almost NOTHING alike. As for real tanking: the warrior definitely wins in this category. But where do u need to REALLY tank? DoA and maybe UW. I would certainly take my warrior to wither ofthese places. But the fact of the matter is that neither of these places is worth the time (IMO) to actually tank in and clear the place. Farming: yes, a warrior is probly a better farmer. Whoopdedoo. Invincimonks are better than warriors at farming. Depending on what ur farming, an earth tank ele is better than an invincimonk. Farming doesn't matter. I know no one has brought this up yet, but someone will. All in all, warriors are good. So are dervishes. If you like to sit behind walls of armor, go for a warrior. If you like to do high dmg and manage enchants go for a dervish. Just don't bash good dervishes because of the noobs who like scythes and hoods.
strcpy
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArKaiN
I'm sorry, but is this really what happens?
In my experience, unless you have like 12 mysticism(even then, actually. it`s not like 4 energy's a lot), and mystic vigor and/or regeneration gets stripped in the middle of a big battle, I either have no energy to recast it (because I mistakingly spent it spamming attacks) or I just die from my low armor combined with no regen. People keep harping about how we have 4 pips of regen and mystic regeneration, but lets face it, thing aren't always ideal, and when they aren't, warriors are still sitting behind that huge armor. Derishes CAN be built around being a good tank, but given the same player skill, I do belive warriors are better suited for this purpouse. It's a trade really, we get worse tankability but we get high damage+aoe. I'll put it this way - I have beaten all three games, cleared Sorrows Furnace and Tombs of the Primevel Kings with a group of hench/heroes as the primary tank. Much easier time than with my warrior. Let me tell you the problem: "because I mistakingly spent it spamming attacks" - Bingo! You can not simply spam skills with a Dervish and expect to live - just watch what enchant is going off and use skills accordingly. Quit spamming a few seconds before mystic regen goes off and you will do fine in most areas. If you are in enchant stripping heavy areas the order they go on matters or you can cast a cheap crappy one to get them to trigger their enchant strip then put on the good one (see cover enchants and how people solo farm the UW - that build is even harder with enchant strippers and they get by - use the same tactics). A warrior isn't a better tank - a warrior is an *easier* tank.
Age
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dross
I've found that dervishes are very good at staying alive, if u know how to play them. And dervishes are the highest dmg melee class out there: crits will regularly go over 100 dmg, sometimes into the 200s. Also, why do people say dervs are an energy black hole for monks? maybe the stupid ones are, but ive never found that dervishes need constant healing when i monk. Take this situation for example: My melandru dervish was in a group with another dervish, 2 mesmers, a ranger, an ele, and a monk. This is in a PuG. We didn't have a single death (except for pets), and the monk didn't complain once (which typically happens even in really balanced groups). So much for being a black hole on healing.
And whats this about sins? theres no similarity between dervs and sins except 70 armor. Contrary to most people's belief, the purpose of the sin is not to frontline: its to ASSASSINATE. Why do u think sins are so popular in PvP? the best role of a sin is to shadow step in, kill the important casters, and then shadow step out. Don't compare dervs to sins: they are almost NOTHING alike. As for real tanking: the warrior definitely wins in this category. But where do u need to REALLY tank? DoA and maybe UW. I would certainly take my warrior to wither ofthese places. But the fact of the matter is that neither of these places is worth the time (IMO) to actually tank in and clear the place. Farming: yes, a warrior is probly a better farmer. Whoopdedoo. Invincimonks are better than warriors at farming. Depending on what ur farming, an earth tank ele is better than an invincimonk. Farming doesn't matter. I know no one has brought this up yet, but someone will. All in all, warriors are good. So are dervishes. If you like to sit behind walls of armor, go for a warrior. If you like to do high dmg and manage enchants go for a dervish. Just don't bash good dervishes because of the noobs who like scythes and hoods. That maybe so but Dervs. can't still out put out as Much dmge as a adrenal warrior can as they don't require energy.I am talking about a good spiker or pressure build here.
strcpy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Age
That maybe so but Dervs. can't still out put out as Much dmge as a adrenal warrior can as they don't require energy.I am talking about a good spiker or pressure build here.
And an adrenal warrior can not even come close to matching a Dervish's damage with adjacent enemies - the dervish doesn't need energy *or* adrenaline to spread the love. Of course, that may very well be because an adrenal warrior is supposed to spike and a dervish is supposed to spread damage/conditions so I'm not really sure what that point is supposed to mean. They also do not heal, nuke, raise minions, hex, or a ton of other things other classes do well.
I had thought that by now most understood that playing a dervish like a warrior isn't going to work (just as playing a warrior like a dervish isn't going to work). |
