[Dev Update] Heroes' Ascent Changes Coming

Bocjo Bassannn

Bocjo Bassannn

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2006

Texas

Pervs R Us {pErV}

Mo/Me

Have to say this .. this "let the community discuss the changes" was a noble idea...... A total disaster but a noble idea... I personaly hope somehow amid all the name calling and "e" pissing contests that anet can find what it is there looking for from a thread like this.

Personaly were it me this thread should be locked untill there is something changed to even discuss..... At this point untill changes are made there is NOTHING even to discuss.

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx
Sorry, only felt like quoting a few things, although there was a lot more I would like to quote from multiple posts.

The reason rank would mean less is two-fold. First, if you're playing only people around your rank, chances are you played fewer battles. Second, if someone has only played against someone their rank, they haven't seen as skilled players yet and thus have not learned as much... do I really need to explain this? Less exposure=less experience. If a system was implemented to make rank to obtain3, people simply set my rank requirements higher, making rank worth less. Also, if you knew anything about HA, you'd know that more teams in halls would result in a lot longer wait than a few minutes (3 teams every 6 minutes, if you have say 6 teams reaching their due to teams getting farther from rank set up matches, you do the math). Also, all I ever hear is rank discrimination. For the large part, it is skill discrimination. I know several r3s I regularly play with because they're good, even though I'm a much higher rank. I don't care about rank, I care about skill, it's just that the average person below r6 or so has no clue wtf they're doing, FACT.
Sorry, it cuts both ways. The way the current system is set up, that means a lot of high ranked players are getting to play against new players AND earning more rank points on top of that. By your logic this also dilutes the value of rank since said experienced players might not have had as much experience as they would otherwise have had they played against their high ranked peers...

Spank My Woman

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2006

Burn

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legendary Ultimatum
there are guilds that done 1.5k fame runs Spank... (in 6vs6)
yes like 50 people have done it... benq is the only guild that done it and the other teams were rank 12 +... but ur forgeting us normal peopel :S rank 7 avreage :S make crapy runs.. like 1 good run in 3 weeks ( 100 - 200 fame run)

Y O U Lo Se

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2006

Wee Free Men[凸〇一〇]

Mo/Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank My Woman
yes like 50 people have done it... benq is the only guild that done it and the other teams were rank 12 +... but ur forgeting us normal peopel :S rank 7 avreage :S make crapy runs.. like 1 good run in 3 weeks ( 100 - 200 fame run)
OH NOES you cant get your r9 in a week, blame anet blame r9+ elitists, you're so poor, only 100-200 fame a week while every1 makes like 500 average a day. Since all r9 people got it in a week, you should also be able to get it that fast. Sue anet imo and demand a r9 acc, since why work for a title when you can get it for free>.>

generik

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx
Sorry, only felt like quoting a few things, although there was a lot more I would like to quote from multiple posts.

The reason rank would mean less is two-fold. First, if you're playing only people around your rank, chances are you played fewer battles. Second, if someone has only played against someone their rank, they haven't seen as skilled players yet and thus have not learned as much... do I really need to explain this? Less exposure=less experience. If a system was implemented to make rank to obtain3, people simply set my rank requirements higher, making rank worth less. Also, if you knew anything about HA, you'd know that more teams in halls would result in a lot longer wait than a few minutes (3 teams every 6 minutes, if you have say 6 teams reaching their due to teams getting farther from rank set up matches, you do the math). Also, all I ever hear is rank discrimination. For the large part, it is skill discrimination. I know several r3s I regularly play with because they're good, even though I'm a much higher rank. I don't care about rank, I care about skill, it's just that the average person below r6 or so has no clue wtf they're doing, FACT.
Sorry, it cuts both ways. The way the current system is set up, that means a lot of high ranked players are getting to play against new players AND earning more rank points on top of that. By your logic this also dilutes the value of rank since said experienced players might not have had as much experience as they would otherwise have had they played against their high ranked peers...

shardfenix

shardfenix

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2005

Il Power Overwhelming Il [HaX]

Thanks for the answers to some of our questions Gaile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
I wonder if you guys can provide some ideas about how to eliminate (rank) discimination.
Make the metagame balanced and reset everyone's rank. I wouldn't mind losing my rank 9, because in a balanced setting I can win it back within months, or in one month if I'm lucky. Yes, this would cause many rank farmers, especially iwayers and spirit spammers, to quit the game. I don't care but I know my favorite game company does.

I highly doubt anet will decide to reset rank. That's an unfortunate mistake.

For whatever unknown reason, players will always discriminate and be elitist about a title that means absolutely nothing. People in DoA discriminate with lightbringer titles, even though 8 damage reduction against 500 damage attacks won't make a difference.

If you want to eliminate rank discrimination, eliminate rank.

B Ephekt

B Ephekt

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Team Crystalline [TC]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin_of_ni
But hypothetically say your a guild group lf r6/9 whatever monk, I pm you saying i have the build but im just under r3 and obviouslly cannot prove this, but there are no other monks that are lfg. You cannot tell me honestly youde accept me into the group where as far as your aware im 6-9 ranks lower than everyone else, thats the descrimination im talking about. its the generalization that unless you can make a few shiney farm animals your not worth the time
How can you logically tell Mendes, or anyone for that matter, what they would do? Do you know us so well that you can make such bold statements? If not I'd refrain from posting obvious conjecture, as it only makes you look like a whiny person.

I actually join low ranked groups all the time, and help as much as they let me (some people have attitudes and aren't receptive to suggestions ). I rarely ever play HA seriously now since it's so horrible, but when I'm bored I go and put up an lfg message saying I'll join lower ranked groups if I like the build. When my guild does HA (which is rare, tbh), we often play with low ranked players - in fact, our core GvG monk is only r5, but he is pretty damn leet (<3 monkie). Also, lately my guild leader and I have been playing with an r5+ guild, both in gvg and HA.

However, if I were to play HA seriously, I would most likely play with people off my friends list, or PUG some r9+ people as a last result. This is because I would want to win as much as possible, and not have to worry about losing because some guy didn't know what to do on a certain map, or reacted poorly to a certain situation. So does that make me an elitist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv
I for one prefer 6v6 and have been trying to make my say to keep it. It is MORE balanced then 8v8 and prevents abuse of stupid builds like IWAY and blood spike. Searing flames is nowhere near as bad as the riddiculous 8v8 builds were, neither is any of the other that are going on. If you dont like 6v6, got do GvG instead.
How exactly is 6v6 "more balanced" when you're losing utility slots on each non-monk character, and an entire player slot? Furthermore, how do you rationalize 4 identical ele builds as being somehow "better" than 5 identical necros? That's some pretty amazing logic, imo.

Quote:
Also, to whoever said get a better infuser... You have most likely never played an infuse monk, and I can tell you the amount skill, reaction time and patience required to play one in 8v8 HA is too much more compared to any other build or character class. 50% of the groups I used to infuse in told me I were fantastic, the other 50% would just spam insults and noob comments at me, not realisng how difficult the build was to play during 8v8.
Infuse was a counter to AFTER SPIKES, active disruption or shutdown was the counter to spikes. The fact that you seem to be unaware of how to counter a spike build paints a picture of someone fluffing up their ego. And before you come back with some brilliant comment about how I have no clue how hard it is to infuse, I got at least 1k of my fame from playing infuser.


Quote:
8v8 was hugely imbalanced, 6v6 is the best way to keep HA. To all the 'leet' ha players that dont like this, stop playing HA, go GvG, and stop being such drama queens over it.
It’s pretty funny that after you call people idiots, and imply that proponents of 8v8 “have no brains” that you have the gaul to be a hypocrite with this drama queen comment.


In reply to the rest of your 6v6 comments, I'm just going to quote myself from another forum.


"Sorry but your comments lead me to believe that you don't actually play in HA much. Maybe your idea of "balanced" is any build without 5 of the same profession, or some other crazy criteria, but there is certainly very little balanced being played currently. You only have a handful of builds out there at the moment, and sorry to break it to you, but 3 dervishes and a warder is not balanced in any sense.

I can say from personal experiences with my guild (mostly r10+, and top 100 in GvG) that running balanced in the current meta is mostly pointless. You simply cannoy take the utility required to counter the spirit spam, 3 dervish, fearway, etc builds; you can hard counter one quite well, but you will always be weak against most of them. Quite simply put, builds are winning matches in HA currently, not players - so you either hop on the scrubby, boring FoTM train, or you deal with being less effective. For many people this means that 6v6 is simply not fun. It's far too limiting and build dependent to instill any sense of actual accomplishment when you win.

I used to prefer tombs to GvG, but there is just no point in playing in that broken arena anymore. New maps and more levers (!) aren't going to change that if they're based around 6v6."


"There is nothing wrong with spikes, unless you're a whiny scrub or someone who can't beat them. FoTM's aren't necessarily a bad thing, and hardly something you can "fix" with map updates. People will always cling to easily run builds because quite simply most players are pretty bad at the game.

6v6 was and will remain bad because it lacks space for utility, and the counter to FoTMs you mentioned has always been utility. Winning in 6v6 is done with build strength, not player strength. Furthermore, it is only "competitive" if you consider spiritway vs. spiritway on 90% of the maps competitive. Please, wake up, there is no balanced anymore, the current meta is the worst tombs has seen since the very beginning.

As long as tombs remains 6v6 I doubt there will be much reason to play there instead of GvG."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin
Just in ID1 now

A nasty sign that the rank problem is getting worse, the average rank people want is 8/9+.............

It used to be 3+...
This is what heroway and 6v6 did. All the players struggling to get r4/5/6, etc were able to farm teams with 5 NPCs for tons of fame.

shreds87

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Warriors of Joo

W/

well, first off I don't come to these forums often so I'm glad I dropped by for this. Second, guys stop arguing about crap that's totally opinion based, you're giving them a load of stuff to sift through to actually get anything out of this thread. "Discuss" the rights of newbie pvper's, unfair practices, etc somewhere else.

Getting down to business, I think adding new maps to HA is a great idea, will add an interesting touch to what's already there, but what I would like to see most is a game re-balance. I don't play HA much anymore b/c there are so many gimmick builds there, so I primarily play GvG, but the game is so unbalanced right now, GvG is starting to have its share of gimmicks as well.

I'd say the best thing that can happen at this point would be to re-balance all the skills used in the overpower builds common almost everywhere. Do something with Searing Flames, do something with the entire Dervish attack line. Defensive skills like LoD and ZB have already made slow condition/hex pressure that was once common in balanced teams almost entirely useless. Counters to everything are out there, but its getting to the point where you have to play a counter build to what is popular in the meta-game to have a chance at all anywhere. Many groups have picked up on this, and I've noticed major build changes almost daily on observer, one thing becomes popular and a counter pops up the next day. The game thus becomes less and less about skill and mid-match tactics and more about writing an effective counter build to popular trends. This ultimately makes balanced builds ineffective.

So I guess I'm going to agree with what a lot of people have already said here: re-balance things and make balanced builds legit again. That is the biggest and best thing you could do for PvP overall right now, because imo, its broken. Gl with whatever you decide to do, I look forward to seeing what new things you have to add to HA to make it that much more fun.

(also, forgot this was mostly about HA, give jagged bones a recharge time, should help balance things in HA a good bit by taking the sting out of that holding build)

NeHoMaR

NeHoMaR

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Maybe sound stupid but skill balance for revive old popular builds (or make new ones) could fix a lot in HA. When the IWAY was running, at least a lot of people was playing one side IWAY and one side anti-IWAY. I insist in the necessity of over popular builds. And this will sound even more stupid, but I think killing that popular builds with resent updates killed indeed HA, not the 6vs6, people are just confused.

About rank discrimination, is indeed a problem, I posted a lot time ago an idea about 3 different HA, one for r0-r5, one for r6-r8, and one for r9-r?, not only the outpost but all arenas, excluding the Hall of Heroes.

I just posted another idea about Profession Rank PvP Title here, not sure if this will add even more discrimination
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10102358

About that Party Search, is not the topic here I know, but it need a lot improvement, in the 1st place, why you can trade in a party search window? Just add a different window for trade.

Note: Why all threads end in flaming? WHY?

tomcruisejr

tomcruisejr

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by shardfenix
Thanks for the answers to some of our questions Gaile.

Make the metagame balanced and reset everyone's rank. I wouldn't mind losing my rank 9, because in a balanced setting I can win it back within months, or in one month if I'm lucky. Yes, this would cause many rank farmers, especially iwayers and spirit spammers, to quit the game. I don't care but I know my favorite game company does.

I highly doubt anet will decide to reset rank. That's an unfortunate mistake.

For whatever unknown reason, players will always discriminate and be elitist about a title that means absolutely nothing. People in DoA discriminate with lightbringer titles, even though 8 damage reduction against 500 damage attacks won't make a difference.

If you want to eliminate rank discrimination, eliminate rank.


reset fame BUT leave the emotes earned. see i played Tombs to get my emote and nothing else. i didnt play tombs to get ranked and discriminate against no rank or lower rank ones.

make me rank 0 but leave my tiger, i wont mind. I won't be able to get into rank-conscious group anyway, say r9+ by just displaying my IWAY tiger coz the actual rank can now be displayed.

see, remove the numbers but keep the EMOTES EARNED.

Sarevok Thordin

Sarevok Thordin

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

W/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcruisejr
reset fame BUT leave the emotes earned. see i played Tombs to get my emote and nothing else. i didnt play tombs to get ranked and discriminate against no rank or lower rank ones.

make me rank 0 but leave my tiger, i wont mind. I won't be able to get into rank-conscious group anyway, say r9+ by just displaying my IWAY tiger coz the actual rank can now be displayed.

see, remove the numbers but keep the EMOTES EARNED.
That's just how they did it in the old days, will accomplish nothing.

tomcruisejr

tomcruisejr

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

hmm actually i used the wrong verb. Reset fame and there will be still rank discrimination coz the same or new people will accumulate fame and get higher ranks and the lower ranks will feel it.

Removing fame is a solution but i got a better one, how about not making a f'in big deal about rank or fame? If certain group of people won't play with you coz you're lower rank, just play with your homies, enjoy the game, get some wins and get your fame?

Sharing my experience, before there was no rank 9+ iway to join. so what did we do? we got together and kill noobs inside the tombs. now, most of guildies, ex-guidlies are r9+. we didn't depend on joining r9+ to get r9+ quickly. we didn't whine in forums coz ex fotmers e.g. spirit spammers, smiters don't want us to be in their ranked teams.

Dodo The Extinct

Dodo The Extinct

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Me/Rt

Stop rank discrimination?

Maybe we should take away the Emotes? I think that having special emotes for a title kinda makes it seem important. Maybe taking them away would make Rank seem more like a title than a requirement. Its just an idea, I`m no HA pro.

leguma

leguma

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

Steel Phoenix[StP]

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcruisejr
Removing fame is a solution but i got a better one, how about not making a f'in big deal about it? If certain group of people won't play with you coz you're lower rank, play with your homies, enjoy the game, get some wins and get your fame?
QFT

If you hate rank discrimination and the peole who do it so much, why, o why do you keep QQing about it. If you dislike these people so much, why do you want to play with them? If rank means nothing, why do you want to join a high ranked group? If all the high ranked players are incompetents who got their fame from IWAY/bloospike/insert FOTM here, why do you want to play with them?

There are more than 6 people on this thread QQing about rank discrimination, why have they not gotten together via PM? Why are they still posting instead of being ingame, PWNing high ranked noobs that can only C+SPACE or 3 2 1 spike? WHY?
Oh yeah, maybe it's because QQing is easier.

Phoenix Ex

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2005

Mo/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcruisejr
hmm actually i used the wrong verb. Reset fame and there will be still rank discrimination coz the same or new people will accumulate fame and get higher ranks and the lower ranks will feel it.

Removing fame is a solution but i got a better one, how about not making a f'in big deal about rank or fame? If certain group of people won't play with you coz you're lower rank, just play with your homies, enjoy the game, get some wins and get your fame?

Sharing my experience, before there was no rank 9+ iway to join. so what did we do? we got together and kill noobs inside the tombs. now, most of guildies, ex-guidlies are r9+. we didn't depend on joining r9+ to get r9+ quickly. we didn't whine in forums coz ex fotmers e.g. spirit spammers, smiters don't want us to be in their ranked teams.
That was BEFORE HA is like 2 dist international and 1 dist american with like 0 unranked guy to choose from and occasionally you get like 2 unranked SF ele wanting a SF group....unfortunately as always any chance of unranked people to earn fame will always be nerfed to the trash bin. I don't think any sane unranked guy would stay in HA for 2 hours waiting for an unranked warrior to show up, then trying to find more unranked from the non-existent unranked people.

But w/e, its not like I don't like 8v8 or new maps, so they can go ahead and change stuff to their liking and we'll see if that's the real problem (which I am pretty sure isn't).

P.S. I am ranked...before people start to jump down my throat. Yes, there are some people who actually care enough to defend da noobs

Franco Power

Franco Power

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2006

UK

W/

I think JR should delete all these posts and ban everyone talking about rank discrimination, Guildwarsguru is not where you come to sort out your childhood issues and drama.

Priest Of Sin

Priest Of Sin

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

Sitting upon Kerrigan's Throne.

Live For The Swarm [ZERG]

Me/N

There is no good reason to remove Rank, reset Rank, or anything of the sort! And the emotes are one of the only reasons why HA is so popular. We had a funny discussion in Alliance Chat today..

Them: LF R8+ ZB Monk for HA!
Me: Why R8+? I have ZB and I'm not an idiot.
Them: What rank are you?
Me: 2 >_>
Them: So, you don't have an emote or title?
Me: No...
Them: We don't want you. We need GOOD players. Noob.
Me: 40 platinum says you get raped by Searing Flames, you bunch of morons.
Them: Well, you're a noob, so we don't want you.
Me: I can't be pro if you never let me BECOME pro.
Them: /endconversation.

Interesting, eh?

tomcruisejr

tomcruisejr

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ex
That was BEFORE HA is like 2 dist international and 1 dist american with like 0 unranked guy to choose from and occasionally you get like 2 unranked SF ele wanting a SF group....unfortunately as always any chance of unranked people to earn fame will always be nerfed to the trash bin. I don't think any sane unranked guy would stay in HA for 2 hours waiting for an unranked warrior to show up, then trying to find more unranked from the non-existent unranked people.

But w/e, its not like I don't like 8v8 or new maps, so they can go ahead and change stuff to their liking and we'll see if that's the real problem (which I am pretty sure isn't).

P.S. I am ranked...before people start to jump down my throat. Yes, there are some people who actually care enough to defend da noobs
there are now staple 6vs6 template builds that are commonly played that unranked or new players can use to get their share of fame. i ocassionally go to American districts and im seeing groups forming without any rank requirement. Few wins can get them fame. See, getting a group together and working things out is a start. The problem is that people enjoy the forums instead of being in game, playing and getting better.

also you are right dude. a.net nerfs those easy to run, noob friendly, casual friendly template builds because of the pressure from the players who take HA seriously. FotMs should be encouraged coz these FoTMs are the lifeblood of HA. I remember lots of American Districts in tombs during the IWAY heyday. when the major iway nerf was implemented (dual orders, resolve, etc), there was a drastic decrease in American districts.

It is not true that the good old players fill the districts of Tombs/ HA. It's the FoTMers, its the people interested in running the successful Tombs/HA builds to get 2 or more fame and get emotes.

Or maybe also ebaying ranked accounts contributed to the reduction of HA districts? why play ha for rank if you can get a r9 account with sigils for $xxxx.

leguma

leguma

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

Steel Phoenix[StP]

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcruisejr
also you are right dude. a.net nerfs those easy to run, noob friendly, casual friendly template builds because of the pressure from the players who take HA seriously. FotMs should be encouraged coz these FoTMs are the lifeblood of HA. I remember lots of American Districts in tombs during the IWAY heyday. when the major iway nerf was implemented (dual orders, resolve, etc), there was a drastic decrease in American districts.
I totally agree with you, the ideal thing for new players is an easy to run build that is capable enough to roll enough of the enemy teams to get you a decent amount of fame, and that ideally requires as few skill unlocks as possible . Unfortunately, the builds that do exist, and that meet these requirements, mainly do so because of skills that are overpowered or skill combinations that are overpowered. Exactly what overpowered is, where it begins and where it ends is quite debatable, however, all of these builds in some way or another fall into this category.

As for HA being taken seriously, unfortunately that is something that lies in the hands of A.net themselves. By tying it to favor, by giving it the rank emotes, by linking to it so heavily in the chapter 1 PvE, they endowed it with importance and seriousness. They decided that ABs will be a joke, they decided that Snowball fights and all other event games will be a joke, but HA they made serious. If you think it should not be, then mayhap the problem resides with you.

Sofonisba

Sofonisba

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

Tucson, AZ

The Black Hand Gang [BHG] and The Black Helm Gang [BHeG]

Quote:
Originally Posted by king_robin
Ok I have played GW for a year now and 2-3 month I played HA. Is was SO BLOODY hard to find a group. So I think that Anet should do something like put these people that doesn't have a rank into distict where 0 ranked can meet 0 ranked can form a 0 ranked group that face another 0 ranked group. That would be perfect.
Or those people can just found themself a guild that does HA.
I really want to play HA tho but I don't know any such build either... (r2)
What about scrimmages using the HA maps, like you can do with GvG? I for one am most intimidated by the maps and what the heck each one "does."

I can take instruction well, I know what many of my skills do, and I've done a lot of RA. But get me on a map with relics, levers, flags, heroes, priests... yeah, it'd probably be a bit overwhelming.

Don't you noble and courageous ranked players wish there were more players who knew what they were doing (and not from repeated humiliations, but from actual education via scrimmaging)?

tomcruisejr

tomcruisejr

Banned

Join Date: Apr 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by leguma
As for HA being taken seriously, unfortunately that is something that lies in the hands of A.net themselves. By tying it to favor, by giving it the rank emotes, by linking to it so heavily in the chapter 1 PvE, they endowed it with importance and seriousness. They decided that ABs will be a joke, they decided that Snowball fights and all other event games will be a joke, but HA they made serious. If you think it should not be, then mayhap the problem resides with you.
to be able to win in HA, you must do all things seriously - play seriously etc. with the rewards and stuffs, HA should be taken seriously. i get what you're saying (but HA gets too old). but what i was saying is that the people who are taking HA seriously are usually people who are asking for nerfs to favor their own builds. these people don't want to lose against nobodies. these people don't want to lose against people who are unheard of. and if they do, they blame the build that these nobodies/unheard of are running. that's basically it. maybe they fail to realize that these rookies are better than them (i.e. aNc vs QQ anyone) or they're not really good and just relying on their rank.

leguma

leguma

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

Steel Phoenix[StP]

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcruisejr
to be able to win in HA, you must do all things seriously - play seriously etc. with the rewards and stuffs, HA should be taken seriously. i get what you're saying (but HA gets too old).
Sure, HA get old, as does everything else after long enough... hell some people even get bored of living. However, I believe that if people are bored of HA, they should play something else in GW, instead of going into HA to take the piss. Also there is the matter of the nature of competition, and how people construe the concept. Some will thrive on competition regardless of wether they win or loose, while for others it boils down to whether they win or loose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcruisejr
but what i was saying is that the people who are taking HA seriously are usually people who are asking for nerfs to favor their own builds. these people don't want to lose against nobodies. these people don't want to lose against people who are unheard of. and if they do, they blame the build that these nobodies/unheard of are running. that's basically it. maybe they fail to realize that these rookies are better than them (i.e. aNc vs QQ anyone) or they're not really good and just relying on their rank.
I remember you saying that you played the Snowball fights and enjoyed them, so I will answer based on that. Have you ever lost a game there, versus a good team while also being in a good team simply because they were Dwayna and you were Grenth? Have you ever faced incredibly incompetent teams that still managed to hinder you and get a few presents capped by the time you won, because they were Dwayna and you were Grenth?
There are skills and combinations of skills that are overpowered, and many of the of FOTMS work off of these, it is what gives them the ability to be efficient despite the experience deficit.

pigdestroyer

pigdestroyer

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Los Chavos Del [ocho]

W/

if there are sooooo many EXCELENT players without rank, why dont you form your own groups?... instead of complaining why you cant get into ranked groups.

NoHomework

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Mendes
@ lyra_song:

Of course rank is a direct measure of experience in HA. A rank 0 person will likely not know about different tactics during relics runs, the current metagame and effective counters to it, how to play altar maps in a way that suits your build, bodyblocking relics and ghostlies, when to kill a ghostly or push for a priest, how to split a team on relic runs, when it is safe to let a ghostly die and go for a recap, etc...
All these examples listed above are acquired through extensive play in HA, and the closest indication of the amount of play in HA is rank. Granted some people might pick most these things up very fast, but they are usually the ones that move up the ranks very fast.
couldn't you learn HOW to do all of that in obs mode at r0 and then not be able to get in PUGs or meet cool people to HA with?

*psst* the answer is yes. I don't enjoy tooting my own horn but I started infusing for r3+ groups and guild groups of mixed ranks when i was r0 and managed to get a lot of compliments. I practiced a little in RA trying to catch people as late as I could with infuse before they died and got a feel for how high infuse can raise different health bars, but MAINLY I was decent because I watched infusers better than me play HA. Don't think it can be done? I'm probably just better at learning than you :P

REGARDING RANK DISCRIMINATION AND PUG FORMATION(im gonna split this long post into blocks you can skip if you want):
But ya... building a friends list is hard. Most of the pugs I got into sucked and the guild groups obviously had a stable of players they trusted with their time and if they were ever again 7/8 looking for an infuser they'd gladly take any old r3+ infuser over me ( and regret it :P ). But honestly, the problem is in the players. I think instead of trying to revamp or do away with the ranking system the players need new party making tools. (come on the party search BLOWS all you have done is made a new way to display LFG). This is what I imagined and anticipated when I heard party search was being implemented. When you use the party search button you can either use the tool as a party leader or party member. Party leaders use a groovy GUI that I know you guys love to make in order to request 1-7 members. He should be able to specify what primary and secondary profession, require that certain skills be brought, or even require an entire bar of skills be brought, or he can be totally general and not care, just 7 warm bodies. When somebody that wants to be a party member uses party search, he can specify what classes he can/wants to play, what skills he wants to use, or again be entirely general, leave every field blank meaning he can play anything. The 'party search' tool should then automatically put the players into parties based on the skills they have unlocked/want to use and the professions they have unlocked/want to use. The party leader can then talk to them in the party chat. If the guy the party search tool selected doesn't fit the profile, the party leader can remove him from the party, even select that he never be accepted into this specific party again, and then party search will look AGAIN for somebody to fill the same slot. I hope that makes sense. ANET can give me a salary if they want details on my vastly superior pug making interface :P

REGARDING 8v8:
Changing HA to 6v6 is NOT the correct way to fix IWAY. In fact, many good balanced players before 6v6 claimed IWAY wasn't even a problem, and I am inclined to agree. What can IWAY really do against a team with wards that kills trappers first and has anti-melee hexes? Then there's the blood spike, which I, the newbly r0 could only laugh at with its 2 second cast time. Half the time I didn't even have to infuse vs bloodspike because the guilds that let me on had developed superhuman reflexes allowing them to interrupt and shut down casters with 2 second cast times. Add to that the soul reaping nerf and I think bloodspike is a fun build to fight with and against. Ranger spike, is a different story really. A spike with a duration of roughly half a second between the first and last packet of damage, with 3 packets of damage per ranger ( meaning it can't be helped with prot spirit ) it was hard as hell to beat. BUT, there is a new nightfall skill called shield of absorption that seems tailor made to crap all over ranger spikes if you manage to catch it right before the arrows hit. But still, who cares if those tried and true builds carry on some glimmer of hope for a newb to get into a r3 build? Balanced builds were still possible. Cutting out 8v8 for the sake of fixing stuff like IWAY destroys every other 8 man build. Remember that when you are sitting in ANETs lap telling them what you want for the next patch. (I WANT 8v8 AND RIDEABLE PONIES!)

Lastly, I would like the developers of future expansion packs to take a REALLY hard look at core and prophecies guild wars and try and make the skills FIT into that balance. If I told somebody during prophecies that warriors were getting a skill that gave them +200 HP and made them immune to conditions for an entire minute every other minuteand could not be removed, I would have been laughed off the game. But wait! If we make a new profession and give them an AOE attack and huge criticals along WITH their hugely overpowered avatars of grenth and melandru, that doesn't have much ARMOR--- it'll be balanced! Enough sarcasm. Immunity to conditions guys... for a f*king minute... okay? Removal of enchantments every time you use an attack skill... okay? OKAY?! I saved the ranting for the end I hope you appreciated it.

Lord Toast

Lord Toast

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

Seattle, WA

The Gods Favor [US]

R/Mo

I understand people who dislike being discriminated against because of their rank, but think of it from the other point of view. Getting to a high rank, such as 9+, takes hours upon hours of playing. The people who get up that high have the choice of whether or not to take ranked people into HA. I think that if A-Net somehow forced them to take low ranked or unranked people in the group that Heroes' Ascent will promptly die.

Nobody wants to be with a bad monk or a warrior who over extends, and rank is the way of determining that. Just because somebody says "I'm not an idiot" doesn't make it true. I have heard all too many times "I'm not ranked but I know what I'm doing..." and then they come in our group and end up wasting our time. Everybody was low ranked at one point or another, and they worked their way through it. I personally worked my way up prior to heroway. I would estimate that the time it took me to get to r3 was approximately that which it took me to get then on to r6, even though the fame needed from 0-3 is 4 times as small as 3-6.

There are definitely people who could easily keep up with the higher ranked groups, even if they aren't ranked. But the percentage of people like this is drastically smaller than the percentage that really have no idea what they are doing, and who need some time to learn how HA works with unranked PUG's.

Many groups will take lower ranked players with them if they have some other way to prove PvP worth, such as a Gladiator or Champion title. I know that I will take a rank 1 gladiator over an unranked person any day of the week, simply because they have put enough time into the PvP aspect of the game to understand how it works.

Another solution is to do HA with higher ranked guildies or alliance mates, as they can get you into a supposed "r6+" group, when you might not actually be that high ranked. That is basically the way i went from rank 3 to 6. I went with guildies who were already higher than rank 6, and therefore could form r6+ groups. I just dropped my title and put in my Hapless title instead.

Basically what I am trying to say is that there is no real way to end rank discrimination without pissing off all of the players who have worked hard to get to the higher ranks. If A-net forces worse players upon them, they will lose their interest in the game and Guild Wars will lose most of its high ranked players.

Sarevok Thordin

Sarevok Thordin

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

W/N

Well, either way, HA is dying and it's NOT 6v6 that's killing it, rather the lack of NEW people coming IN.


Someone buying the game today has no chance of getting 1 point of fame in 3 months :/

Gimme Money Plzkthx

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

^Entirely not true. Someone buying this game that spends time QQing and not attempting to be competitive at HA and spending lots of time with it has no chance of getting 1 point of fame in 3 months.

Kyle The Piemaster

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaile Gray
One note on HA: In order to focus on the changes to mechanics, and in order to avoid shifting too many elements at once (which would make it difficult to assess the success of the individual changes)
Great Idea! That would be just terrible if you made a change and you thought it was good because more people played HA during that time, but it was because of some other reason like double fame. If something like that happened you would probably get lots of complaint threads and about 1/5th as many people playing HA. Thanks in advance for avoiding this tragedy!

tacitus

tacitus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

scotland home of the brave!

steel phoenix [stp]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin
Well, either way, HA is dying and it's NOT 6v6 that's killing it, rather the lack of NEW people coming IN.

Not true in a game like this you need a constant source of new players that equals the drop rate of players leaving the game to keep the numbers the same.

Before 6v6 there was not a huge problem of players in HA soon after 6v6 the numbers playing HA dropped dramatically. The main reason HA is so deserted these days is because people lost the game type they enjoyed. Retention as well as recruitment is needed, right now retention is lacking and many players have left after the 6v6 was introduced. It was this loss not a lack of new players which made HA so deserted.

The coming test of HA will be interesting but will prob confirm the fact there needs to be more new players in HA just to counter the ones leaving.

P.S. Most of people wanting 8v8 are not blood spike, IWAY types. Those builds were gimmicks and all you see these days are gimmicks every single map. Currently running 2 necro monks and no spirits or minions could be done since almost ¾ of the opposition will provide the soul reaping for you.

Balanced builds suffered the most out of 6v6 not gimmicks that should be clear to anyone who actually plays.

leguma

leguma

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

Steel Phoenix[StP]

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin
Incase you ain't noticed, this is a thread talking about changes to HA.
And you proposed change is what? Reset Fame? Force at least 1 unranked player per group? Make separate rank based districts?

You make it sound like fame is responsable for the decline of HA, if that is the case, mayhap you would like to enlighten us on why that is, using arguements. Ridiculous exagerations such as "Someone buying the game today has no chance of getting 1 point of fame in 3 months :/" don't count as arguements BTW.

People getting into HA now have it EASY now, compared to how it was over a year ago when I started playing HA.

Shendaar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

P4n드4k트 F0rm4710n

W/

I don't even want the r9s team to take me or whatever. All I want is to actually be able to play without having to spam "lfg" for 30 minutes. There are very few unranked teams and from what I have seen, most of them are SF teams, which I refuse to play.

I don't care if I lose 3/4 of my battles and it takes me months to get anywhere rank wise. I'd be happy so long as I could get to play under a reasonable amount of time and get to have some fun in the process. But right now, I either get stuck at the part at which I get to play, or I don't and I get thrown into some arena where I get to experience some of the most boring battles you could imagine.

There are two things keeping me from getting fame. The first thing would be the lack of available group I can get in at any given time(this problem is likely to be caused by the boringness that is HA atm) and the second thing would be my personal refusal to get into any kind of build that has FotM attached to it. So with next to no group to get in and half of that next to nothing to rule out, it doesn't look like I am getting anywhere soon.

Sarevok Thordin

Sarevok Thordin

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

W/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by tacitus
Not true in a game like this you need a constant source of new players that equals the drop rate of players leaving the game to keep the numbers the same.

Before 6v6 there was not a huge problem of players in HA soon after 6v6 the numbers playing HA dropped dramatically. The main reason HA is so deserted these days is because people lost the game type they enjoyed. Retention as well as recruitment is needed, right now retention is lacking and many players have left after the 6v6 was introduced. It was this loss not a lack of new players which made HA so deserted.

The coming test of HA will be interesting but will prob confirm the fact there needs to be more new players in HA just to counter the ones leaving.

P.S. Most of people wanting 8v8 are not blood spike, IWAY types. Those builds were gimmicks and all you see these days are gimmicks every single map. Currently running 2 necro monks and no spirits or minions could be done since almost ¾ of the opposition will provide the soul reaping for you.

Balanced builds suffered the most out of 6v6 not gimmicks that should be clear to anyone who actually plays.
Yeah I can understand the 8v8 want, after all, 10 professions and people just HAVE to have 2 monks in there.

Not alot of choice eh?

Still, the numbers were record during the double fame weekend, showing the POTENTIAL for HA....(Which btw, should NEVER happen again..........)

NeHoMaR

NeHoMaR

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodo The Extinct
Stop rank discrimination?

Maybe we should take away the Emotes? I think that having special emotes for a title kinda makes it seem important. Maybe taking them away would make Rank seem more like a title than a requirement. Its just an idea, I`m no HA pro.
Hey, I have one cool idea!! TEMPORALLY remove the possibility of wear rank titles, and remove emotes or make all emotes a deer this HA test weekend. Cool things will happen for sure!

leguma

leguma

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

Steel Phoenix[StP]

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin
How about this, if you think it is "SO EASY" to get an unranked person into HA.

I'll pose randomly in the next few days as a newbie in HA asking politely for someone to show me the ropes (WITHOUT a SF team and the like)

I'll see if my arguements are exagerated or not.
Nobody should need to show you the ropes. There are cutscenes before ever map that explain the overall positioning and objectvives of the map as well as your goal. If you've played the PvE, you should have gone through a relic run mission, an altar cap mission and a kill the priest before the 2 minute mark mission. If you skipped PvE entirely, you most likely have very little idea, if any, about how this game works and what all the skills do, bu should still have gone through Isle of the Nameless and know how to work an obelisk, a relic and whatnot.
If all of the above have been skipped, then the person has NO place in HA. there is an old chinese saying, full of wisdom, and it goes: READ THE -ING MANUAL.

As for your paranthesis of no SF or the like, I fail to see what the problem with that is. Is it not a build like any other? Do the people who play it not have 8 skills on their bar? Is their party not limited at 6 players? Can they get more than 12 in any attribute without runes?
This is competitive play we're talking about... COMPETITIVE.

Liberations

Liberations

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2006

Azeroth (shhh)

Ryders of the Sword [FrNd]

E/

Things that need to be gotten done:
-Disable the displaying of Hero, Gladiator, and Champion Titles while in HA,TA.
-Disable rank emotes in HA,TA.
-Make TA differ than RA in more ways; present more rewards and different methods of play.
-Make PvP more rewarding.
-Arenanet should personally in-game and out of game urge the community to take part in PvP.
-Arenanet should design well thought out builds and put them on the website.
-Introduce an in-game build creator.(With more detailed options than what we have)
This is an extensive list of general changes, but it gets to the point.
These could be added in a major core update.

Sarevok Thordin

Sarevok Thordin

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

W/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by leguma
Nobody should need to show you the ropes. There are cutscenes before ever map that explain the overall positioning and objectvives of the map as well as your goal. If you've played the PvE, you should have gone through a relic run mission, an altar cap mission and a kill the priest before the 2 minute mark mission. If you skipped PvE entirely, you most likely have very little idea, if any, about how this game works and what all the skills do, bu should still have gone through Isle of the Nameless and know how to work an obelisk, a relic and whatnot.
If all of the above have been skipped, then the person has NO place in HA. there is an old chinese saying, full of wisdom, and it goes: READ THE -ING MANUAL.

As for your paranthesis of no SF or the like, I fail to see what the problem with that is. Is it not a build like any other? Do the people who play it not have 8 skills on their bar? Is their party not limited at 6 players? Can they get more than 12 in any attribute without runes?
This is competitive play we're talking about... COMPETITIVE.
I'm talking about showing the ropes on PLAYER skills, like body blocking, relic running, cover hexes/chants, things you DON'T Learn from a manual.

You WON'T learn much playing SF, which is basically going in and spamming a few skills. I'm talking things that make a GOOD player.

Because as we all know, things like SFs, get "balanced"......

Shendaar

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

P4n드4k트 F0rm4710n

W/

This is one of the reason why I refuse to run any of the FotM. A lot of them have "nerf" written all over them and I see no reasons for me to play any build if it has a strong chance of getting toned down in the next patch. Most of them also tend to be stupidly boring, both because of the sheer amount of people running them and because of their brainless simplicity.

I have nothing to learn from any of these build and I guess there is that thing I don't like about being just like everyone else.

leguma

leguma

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2005

Steel Phoenix[StP]

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin
I'm talking about showing the ropes on PLAYER skills, like body blocking, relic running, cover hexes/chants, things you DON'T Learn from a manual.

You WON'T learn much playing SF, which is basically going in and spamming a few skills. I'm talking things that make a GOOD player.

Because as we all know, things like SFs, get "balanced"......
Hate to break it to you, but if you actually go to the Isle of the Nameless, you will find the Master of Blocking, which, apropriately enough, teaches you how to body block. As for hexes, there is NOTHING to teach. There are hex skills and hex removal skills, hex removal skills remove the most recently applied hexes. If you do not know/understand this, then you have no comprehension of how the very basics of the game works and have no place in TA, let alone in HA. As for relic runing, there is nothing to teach, if you undestand the concept of body blocking, you automatically undestand the concept of avoiding it. Or are you suggesting that there is some special way of holding the relic?

There is no player skill or ability that is needed to be able to start playing HA that the game does not teach you previously. If you decide to skip the training it i nobody's fault and the system should not be changed to accomodate incompetency.

Advanced tactics such as impromptu 4 man body blocks, counting how much energy a monk is gaining from regen while you are draining them, looking at their hands to see when they focus swap, looking at the rate of degen to determing if the conjure cover for migrane has been removed or not are all ADVANCED tactics that are not neccessary to start playing in HA. Everything people need is already there in terms of information, but it is up to them to make use of it and convert it into play.

Sarevok Thordin

Sarevok Thordin

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Scotland

W/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by leguma
Hate to break it to you, but if you actually go to the Isle of the Nameless, you will find the Master of Blocking, which, apropriately enough, teaches you how to body block. As for hexes, there is NOTHING to teach. There are hex skills and hex removal skills, hex removal skills remove the most recently applied hexes. If you do not know/understand this, then you have no comprehension of how the very basics of the game works and have no place in TA, let alone in HA. As for relic runing, there is nothing to teach, if you undestand the concept of body blocking, you automatically undestand the concept of avoiding it. Or are you suggesting that there is some special way of holding the relic?

There is no player skill or ability that is needed to be able to start playing HA that the game does not teach you previously. If you decide to skip the training it i nobody's fault and the system should not be changed to accomodate incompetency.

Advanced tactics such as impromptu 4 man body blocks, counting how much energy a monk is gaining from regen while you are draining them, looking at their hands to see when they focus swap, looking at the rate of degen to determing if the conjure cover for migrane has been removed or not are all ADVANCED tactics that are not neccessary to start playing in HA. Everything people need is already there in terms of information, but it is up to them to make use of it and convert it into play.
They actually HAVE a master of blocking? o_o

(I started back before the isle was even there, so don't get too loud)

But the fact is, even WITH that info in mind, most people just won't take you into a team.

I'll confirm that over the next few days with the previously mentioned task, if I'm proven wrong...well....I'll Change my Avatar to "IDIOT" in big green letters for a month >_>

tacitus

tacitus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

scotland home of the brave!

steel phoenix [stp]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberations
Things that need to be gotten done:
-Disable the displaying of Hero, Gladiator, and Champion Titles while in HA,TA.
-Disable rank emotes in HA,TA.
-Make TA differ than RA in more ways; present more rewards and different methods of play.
-Make PvP more rewarding.
-Arenanet should personally in-game and out of game urge the community to take part in PvP.
-Arenanet should design well thought out builds and put them on the website.
-Introduce an in-game build creator.(With more detailed options than what we have)
This is an extensive list of general changes, but it gets to the point.
These could be added in a major core update.
Ok first of all removing titles and emotes form pvp areas.
This will just make it harder for people to make teams. Most high end teams are made on vent or by looking at guild rosters and vent lists spamming in the district just doesn't happen. For those without extensive contacts its more difficult. Without basic ranks open people will return to the way of constant quizzing people over vent/ts to make sure there not wasting there time with some guy with healing breeze and mending hoping to keep the party alive against spike teams. (Oh yes iv seen people try when I used to pug, iv also heard people argue that pin down>rez sig).

Anet should encourage us to take part in PvP.
That is a players choice nothing is stopping players from taking part. Why should Anet encourage us to play PvP instead of DoA? Oh and they have tournaments for the best players to take part in which is going to be more common with the ATs. Oh I have another idea lets include titles and perhaps emotes as a way of encouraging people to play HA or other types of PvP. Oh wait they already do that and you want them to remove them which is it?

Anet should make builds and post them on forums.
How lazy are you? You want Anet to make the builds for you? For a start most common builds are on public forums anyway, obs mode lets you see them in use being played by good players as an example. What are you wanting next? Anet to come in your house and play the game for you.