Vote on PvP access control over PvE areas.

If by "bridge" you're refering to a monodirectional bridge you get forced across to get in a fight with some folks on the other side, just so you can live out your daily life on your side of the bridge, then yes, it's a bridge.

P.S. New players can't play HA. No rank 3 = no group = no favor.

Exactly. We have to see that annoying message scroll at the bottom of our screen. Just get rid of PvP control over PvE areas and it would not be a problem. Or at the very least, let us turn that thing off.

Vote still no. Heck, add another no. I have 2 accounts.

yeah seems like PvE Players are like african americans and women were back in the early 1800's..no ability to vote...

why is it that pvp players now have no reason to go to pve? that wasn't around 2 years ago...so why did that change...oh that's right because only pvp votes count it seems.

give us a real reason why the favor system shouldn't be changed other than because it's been around since the start and shouldn't be changed...that reason isn't valid. Why should certain elite pve areas be freely open and not others? (not that I'm suggesting UW/FoW be completely free to enter and unrestricted in anyway, see my previous post for my ideas)

That's a very clever and fun idea you have.

I took one person's suggestion to heart and moved my account from America to Europe. None of my guildmates have done the same. Well... DUH, I didn't think about this at the time, but I am now guaranteed to never be able to go to UW and FoW with my guildmates unless they all change over to Europe or I change back to America. Ugh... I had to bang my head on the desk for not thinking that one through! And if I change back to America we'll still be getting favor at 10:30PM Central Time. I'll be back to square one - America, which thankfully gets favor on occasion, usually gets it too late for me or my fellow guildmates to participate in for very long.

Okay okay I know, nobody is terribly concerned about my plight, and that is quite fine with me. But it did get me thinking: I noticed that i could not change territories to Japan, Taiwan, or Korea. I found it odd, so I did some research - players in those territories do not even have the luxury that Americans and Europeans do of switching to other territories through their account management button. They have to write to PlayNC and request that their territory be changed manually. There's no automated process for it.* Not that players in those regions are expecting pity from an American like me, but I really wish ANet will consider doing it differently. I also noticed that I had a territory change cap of something like four territory moves. ...Four? Over the lifetime of my account? Whatever for? People have already abused favor by purchasing multiple accounts anyway. What could this possibly hurt?

So then it brings me to another suggestion. Rather than change the mechanics of favor at all, ELIMINATE the permanent cap of four or five territory moves over the lifetime of an account. Make it unlimited. Heck, that probably amounts to only a handfull of query changes and no other design changes at all. I bet a developer could implement this in no time.

That reminds me! From what I heard, Gaile Grey made an appearance in Kamadan the other day and did a Q and A, during which she said something about responding to this thread. I wonder if we can expect comments directly from her anytime soon.

* Gotta cite my source! - http://www.plaync.com/us/support/doc...l?p_faqid=2076

much better than most ideas mentioned here that still involve a pvp link to UW/FoW...just as long as you include the part about paying 1k to access the areas at any time without the 10% morale boost. I'd still like a pve equivalent to those arenas so pve players can get access too and get the morale boost without paying the 1k...but I wouldn't fight it if they implemented your system. (just as long as I can get in without playing pvp)

Vote: No Dislike having to wait for favor just to access a PvE area... example: HA previous 6:6/heros staged protest affected FoW/UW for weeks..

I just want to say, most games, I love PvP. I like the competition, I like the adrenaline, I like the abuse - received and dealt back with interest, preferably. When I win, I count my blessings, and when I lose, I watch the replays and try and learn something... or sometimes I just curse and blame my allies or a 'noob tactic my enemy used that needs to be nerfed' (I'm human).

For some reason, GW PvP just doesn't do it for me. Who knows why? Maybe it's because the game is decided too much by the Skill Templates before the countdown even begins? Maybe I suck at it. I don't know - I haven't been interested enough in it to put any time into learning it, apart from a brief spell as a E/A Starburster that bored me to yawns but earned me my first and only 8 Fame points in one evening session*.

I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. I know obsessive FPS players who don't like GW PvP. I know ranked RTS players who don't like GW PvP.

If GW PvP turns your key, lucky you. I'm pleased it makes you happy. I'm sure a lot of things could be improved in the PvP experience. I'd support you in your requests if they were rational and didn't affect my game experience.

So, do us PvE'ers a favour. Vote 'No' to PvP results affecting access to UW and FoW. It doesn't affect you. You don't even care. You play your game. We'll play ours. Sounds a fair deal to me.


* I only played that evening because my gf loves GW PvP and her HA team was desperate. (Note to ANet: My gf may be able to make me play GW PvP - you, however, have a lot less chance of persuading me).

My vote is no....I don't do PvP and even though the idea of one having the influence over the other may seem like a fun idea, I think the almost navy vs army type attitudes between the PvP-ers and PvE-ers is reason enough not to give one group the power to affect the other group...

The game play is too different...if you really wanted the two to come closer together they need to be interesting enough for both groups to play both but as it stands there is a separation between the two groups and the group of players that actively participates in both game types is too small to warrant it in my view.

Vote: NO

Besides PvPers would die in 3 seconds in UW/FoW/Tombs/Deep/Warren/DoA. They don't know shit about PvE, since they never got a character that is ascended.
And dont forget about all the premade farmbuilds that will overrun these places. Some people are kept from here, just by the fact their elite for the build is too hard to cap for them.

Elite stuff = Elite, lets keep it that way

Your post made me rofl. You are clueless about PvPers.

1) PvP builds tend to roll through areas like FoW/UW/whatever assuming compotent players are playing them. I will admit that many skills are sub-optimal in those builds for PvE, but considering PvE is designed to let you win...

2) Most serious PvPers have ascended with at least one charactar. There used to be a time when just about everyone had a PvE fully tricked out with gear so they could PvP. And most casual PvPers are also known as PvErs that dabble in Random Areans/GvG/HA once in awhile.

PvPers playing with their friends probably make good PvEers, but they can suck for PUG groups.

I played Ring of Fire with this group, including a PvPer playing a monk. The party went down, due to some stupid typical puggish nonsense, but we could have gotten going again, except the last man standing, the PvP player didn't have a rez.

"Monks don't carry rez."

I patiently explained that in PvE, players expect a monk to have Rez, even though I completely understand why they don't in PvP. If you want to play with pugs, you need to adapt to the environment.

For my pains I got flamed and called a "PvE Noob!"

I submit that it was the PvP player who was the PvE noob.

Of course this goes to illustrate the differences in the game.

For the record, whilst I've played some amount of RA, I would surely describe myself as a PvP noob - but a damnably well experienced PvE player.

Vote: No.
Great majority agree on this every time, but.... (sigh)

Oh, yes we are! And the plight of the people in the Korean, Taiwanese and Japanese servers. The player community has showed solidarity here. The ball is in Arenanet's corner.

Thank you for your remarks, Pakana! Okay so I had another idea about "Free Roaming" as I call my last proposal.

PVPers are offered a PVP pack that they can purchase to unlock their skills and such, right? This allows them to bypass aspects of the PvE experience. So why not sell a "Free Roaming" package to PvE'ers whereby we can freely move from territory to territory without a cap? It'll let me get into the Prophecies dungeons I want without depending on PvP. After all, PvPers used to depend on PvE to unlock stuff, and now they can buy their way out of it. Why not allow PvE'ers, who currently depend on PvP'ers to unlock these two areas, to buy their way out of that situation as well?

...I mean I'd certainly consider paying $5 for Free Roaming.

I'd pay it...so would most other probably. Which would essentially make favor meaningless...

but more importantly Before the unlock packs there was Balthazar faction...this allowed people to unlock PvE skills without going to PvE....but that wasn't enough...they needed to have a shortcut way so they didn't have to grind for the faction. So not only did they get their wish to stay out of pve...but they also got their wish to prevent themselves from having to farm. We're just asking for that first level...It's a reasonable request...we don't need some shortcut like pvp players did.

Comparing pvp packs and free access to the underworld is quite the logical leap ....from a bridge, to logical suicide.

pvp control of pve areas is what makes guildwars different from other games - it gives guildwars unique flavor, and it gives people who wouldn't pvp a reason to try it.

No, not really. It gives them a reason to shop for a more reasonable game. Or bitch about it endlessly on the forum. What it won't do is make people PvP. Two years have shown that in spades.

Unreasonable is debating the design for two years and expecting it to change now.

Although I basically only play one I still think its fair that pvp makes pve decisions. A-net made it this way for a reason! It was so the gamers get the best of the game that they can! So that you can get fame and win favor for your side and then go battle it out with the shadow army and thoose dam smites !

All you who say that it shouldnt are idiot cry babys who think WAHHHHHH i cant get into the fow cause dam europe has it all time Its not fair. A matter of fact its 100% fair! Both america and europe (not asian countries no offense never have favor) Have the same amount of chance to get favor as europe its just europe ppl are more into pvp then pve! so get off your fat lazy asses and do some HA get a real feel for the game and then quit complaining and go mending the fow >_<

PvP packs replaced having to earn (grind) the required faction to get the skills you want. Free Access via paying for access with real money would replace having to go to HA and earn favor to get access. May not be exactly equivalent...but it is the closest comparison.

People who want to play pvp can get into it easily through the several lower level pvp areas...there is absolutely no reason to force people into playing a PvP area they have no realistic hope of competing in. The only thing having favor as it is now does is piss off people who have no interest in pvp. Like I said...get it through your thick skull...if we have no interest in pvp we're sure as hell not going to go try it in HA.

That's not unreasonable, it's called tenacity. The opposite would be to roll over and die.

Spelt it out. They never have favor. They can't go unto the Underworld or the Fissure, and they never get the bonuses at shrines.

How is that fair?

I agree with you, Bryant, it is not fair. I would like to see it changed too! But other posters are most likely correct that it will not change.

To win and hold favor must have consequences, or it is meaningless. And...tens of thousands of people seeing the avatars and knowing that their region has favor, as well as tens of thousands more not seeing that and being unable to access the ultimate areas in GW, is consequences.

If they remove that, then what will the winners have to brag and crow about? I'd wager that without real stakes, the competition would be less fierce and the PvP population would decrease.

Sorry man.
TabascoSauce

True. But I wouldn't do it because, to me, it's saying that the way favor is now is okay, and it really isn't.
And don't forget about server crashes when undoubtedly everyone and their mom moves onto the same server leaving the others desolate.
It doesn't make me want to try it. In fact all it does is make me stay away and resent it. But that's just me.
That doesn't make it right. Or even smart.
Idiot cry babies who so far have made much more intelligent posts than yours by far. Not to mention some of the people who post here are on Euro servers.
I can assure you I'm neither fat nor lazy. Insulting others gets you nowhere. If I go get a team of 5 people standing in ToA waiting for a group to UW/FoW what are the chances of us making it through the first map? Then actually making it to HoH and holding 5 times in a row?

As Gli said, and I can add too as well; it has added reasons not to purchase future GW games. Why?
Why engage in something we do not enjoy (GW PvP) to be able to play somethign we do enjoy (GW PvE) when we can simply spend the money else where and not have to worry about GW PvP or PvP in general?

That unique flavor tastes a lot like sour milk or rancid chicken if you ask me and those along with GW PvP are unpleasant to even be near.

Consequences? Thanks reminding us of the phenomenon known as cause and effect. I should remind you that just because something affects tens of thousands of people doesn't make it good.
eg: Natural disasters.

If they removed the Favor system, which most HA players don't care about or they wouldn't play in International... they would still have the biggest emotes in the game - Ranks - and they would still have gold drops like Legendary Swords, Runic Blades and Celestial Sigils.

They would also still have their guild name broadcast across the entire game in order to ruin the painstakingly designed PvE atmosphere with : Xx Clumsily Rendered Tolkienesque Name Xx has worn Hoh blah blah blah.

Heya Pork Soldier;

I am genuinely in your point of view. Could you explain how my argument is a logical leap?

To sum up my position: What is PvE to a PvPer? There is either a free way or a paid way for PvPers to circumvent any need to access PvE areas. From what I see, the reverse is not true. Therefore, in my view a paid "Free Roam" travel pack (that circumvents the need to worry about favor) is to PvE what a "skill unlock" pack (that circumvents the need to unlock those skills, including elite skills,* in PvE areas) is to PvP. I do not understand how this is a logical leap and hope you will elaborate further.

* - Gotta cite my source! http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...vpeditions.php
(Thanks to Tari Laisi for locating that reference page!)

Since the addition of balthazar faction to pvp there has been no reason for dedicated pvp only players to play pve, with one exception, it's far faster to unlock skills in pve by buying them than it is to grind balth faction to unlock them. Basically the pvp packs were a shortcut that let players get up to speed and play the portion of the game that they want in a short period of time.

If you want to connect pvp packs to a comparable pve time saver then I suggest that Anet start selling gold from the in-game store, pvp pack price for 1M should be about fair. Alternately a pvp pack priced "unlock all outposts and missions" option would work as well. Both of these options are time savers for pve players

Paid access to the UW or FoW has substantial gameplay problems that haven't been addressed.

First, the UW and FoW are a reward for your region doing well in the global tournament, you aren't entitled to them all the time. This sounds harsh but in the same way that you aren't entitled to go to the deep or urgoz's warren you are not entitled to go to the UW whenever you want. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get flamed for saying that, but that's how the mechanic governing those areas is designed.

Second, you're going to mix the haves and the have nots in the same area - this is going to make a large portion of the playerbase angry that they aren't allowed access because they haven't spent their $10usd. That isn't good PR, it makes the "pay for more stuff" business model very apparent.

Third, you're allowing professional farmers permanent access to the most profitably farmed area of the game (24/7 smite runs anyone?) I think this is a large part of why people support this idea, they can do ecto runs whenever they like if they have 24/7 access to the UW. Basically they're paying for gold in a very indirect way.

So back to the logical leap ~ the UW and FoW are rewards for coordinated effort, much like elite missions, while pvp packs are paid for time savers - they are separate concepts, hence connecting them is a massive logical leap.

edit: there are other reasons for pvp players to pve, pve-only weapon and armor skins are a big part of that.

edit2: basically what you're asking for is a license to farm ecto and shards, if that is the case then I think we can rephrase the debate in terms of why people need or want more in game money.

This is utter crap. First off, everyone started out rank zero. It happens, you deal with it. Secondly, you try to bridge the gap, you'll get help. I rarely lead groups in HA, but when I do, if someone whispers me and asks can they join, they are unranked but have played PVP with that class and know the basics more often than not I'll let them come. If I don't want to for whatever reason, I put them on my friends list and take them in another group later. Most of the people who I know who regularly run groups are happy to take unranked people with them if they have done some basic search, have an idea how to play and know the builds.

I started HA when rank was firmly entrenched and I got most of it in R3 or higher groups when I was unranked - it's called communicating and being a decent player. If you sit in HA ID1 and don't make any effort to bridge the gap your fame stands still. If you sit and whine on a forum about discrimination and elitism it stands still. If all you get is people saying they don't want you, maybe you should work on your communication skills because I never had any trouble getting into ranked groups without prior contact. In fact I still don't have trouble getting into groups ranked higher than I am. If you try and talk to people, ask questions, attempt to learn you may get somewhere...

Say you and 3 other PVE friends want to learn how to play HA? Find a PVP player off a forum who is ranked, ask them to come along. You'll find if they aren't doing anything else, they'll come. They'll give you tips, help you out and if you are decent players but inexperienced they'll be happy to come back and help you out later as well.

I'll tell you a story about a friend of mine. At the time he was about 30 fame off rank 3. He was getting sick of being close, so he got a decent PVPers name off of some forums. It was Tiyuri, who posts here of Wee Free Men. That night we played with his guild (we were both sub rank 3) at this stage, both got our rank 3 deers. A couple of days later, we had some more people, all of us ~rank 3 and needed a few more so we asked Tiyuri to come along. He was happy to. Within a week he'd invited a guild full of low ranked guys who weren't particularly good into his alliance (something our leader foolishly left later but that's another issue). Communication and networking are keys in PVP and if you can't do it you'll fail. That's not the rank systems fault, it's yours.

Edit: While you do all this, have an open mind. If someone tells you that a skill is bad or suggests something, listen to them. Don't cry when they criticise your build, take it as an opportunity to improve. If you go in thinking "my warrior must have Griffon Sweep because that suits his roleplaying background" you aren't going to get good results...

Signed, once you realize that internet games are all about who you know and how you communicate then things are *far* easier.

Regarding all this free advice about how to play HA... go start a thread on it. This thread is about PvP controlling access to PvE areas.

America hasn't had Favor at all today, which is a hopeful sign for me. I think the broken system needs to be really nuked before it will be removed. That nuking might come in the form of Europe having Favor 100% of the time.

And on that note... GO EUROPE! (including your American and Asian allies in International Districts, of course).

PS: Pork, read the post title "It's the economy, stupid." before posting nonsense about the economic impact of opening UW/FoW. Thanks.

I like you.

I vote: Yes.

PvE players are generally wimps when it comes to playing things that... think.

*clears throat*

I DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT RANK...THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE LIKE ME...WE DO NOT CARE TO PLAY PVP...WE ARE HERE FOR THE PVE.

I will keep complaining until favor is removed or changed so PvP does not control it.

To Any PvP players that tell people like me to go play HA and stop complaining...just shove that rank somewhere uncomfortable.

please close this thread. it's becoming a joke for #gwp trolls.

No...as has been said many times...people have offered many ways of restricting access to UW/FoW that doesn't involve PvP. We want the PvP link removed or some other method to gain access that doesn't rely on PvP results (leave the pvp link in...just give us another way...a PvE way!). Also a simple modification to drop rates would solve farming problems...as been said many times.

First...we are trying to break that link to PvP...because it is a PvE reward for PvP...which makes no sense. Most of the people that go there do not go there to get access to UW/FoW...they are there for other reasons.

Second...why would mixing have and have nots be any different with a UW/FoW unlock pack than it is with PvP unlock packs? No doubt there are people in PvP that don't have the unlock packs yet and rely on pve or faction to unlock skills. It's still a shortcut anyway you look at it.

Third...As I said...most people have offered some ideas that involve pve ways of restricting access to UW/FoW. Over-farming can be reduced by cutting drop rates...that's an easy fix. No doubt there are people who want unrestricted access. What we are asking for is some PvE way of restricting it...and removing the PvP restriction.

leave it open....until it breaks out into an all out flamewar...another one will just be opened up and they'll go to that one. They look at the issue to be one they will troll about. So no matter where the discussion is held they will go there.

Nuke the posters that are trolling...not the thread they are trolling...

I was responding to a direct comment that it's too hard to get started in HA. I wasn't saying you should get started, I was saying for those who feel that it is too hard there are ways to move on.

If you don't want to PVP, good for you. But if people are going to complain that they can't get started in PVP or HA, others are going to respond.

Ah, but the implementation of elite dungeons across the PvE campaigns is inconsistent. Why is that? Here's a brief review:

FOW / UW: Implemented in Prophecies, exclusive access is predicated on a player being in the favored territory when they go to a shrine.
Urgoz / Deep: Implemented in Factions, exclusive access is predicated on the availability of a taxi (ferry) from the prevailing guild in that town.
Tombs (TPK): Implemented at the start of Factions and available in the Prophecies campaign, access is predicated on completing the story arc (more or less).
Domain of Anguish: Implemented in Nightfall, access is predicated on completing the story arc (more or less).

Interesting, isn't it? When we consider it from a historical perspective, by the time Factions came out there was a crack in the Favor design, and by the time Nightfall came out the design had changed completely from a model based exclusively on PVP results to a model based exclusively on completing the PvE story arc. In my view, this is tacit admission from ANet that the two previous implementation methodologies were poorly-received by most players and too flawed to reuse due to the awkward logistics that 80% of us are complaining about right now.

While we're on this subject, I do want to give ANet credit where it's due. They have really improved elite dungeon access over time with each chapter's release, and I'm greatful for it! It also makes sense that they do it this way, at least from a financial perspective. They'd probably want to adjust the policy for future titles that have the greatest potential to generate revenue. Design remediation for legacy titles becomes a very low priority over time. After all, the revenue stream for legacy games falls naturally to a fraction of what it was at initial release and, consequently, maintenance and design remediation have a much lower return on investment. All the same, the design improvements we've seen over the course of three chapters is apparent to me. They are listening and they are improving as they move the story forward. They just can't afford to improve things that no longer generate the lion's share of the company's revenue.

And THAT is precisely why I am proposing a paid offering to uncap territory transfers. It guarantees that ANet is paid for the resources they'd need to allocate in order to implement a fix.

What on earth... it makes it very apparent? I mean no disrespect, but you're ignoring the elephant in the middle of the room. There's an online store button in the corner of your screen right after you log in and you can buy all kinds of stuff there. Skill packs are available for purchase for PvP characters. Heck, people got mini pets in the game because they went out, bought a magazine, and used some promotional code in the online store. Someone can pay a little more for GW at the store and get some glitzy moves (replete with a disco ball for Pete's sake) for their character dances. No sir, I am sorry, but ANet fully embraces this model. It's plain as day. And concerning the issue at hand: in light of the fact that we may not ever see positive changes unless we volunteer to throw some money at it, I embrace the idea of "paying for more stuff" in this case.

And I'm definitely not alone!

I must dispute this also. To reiterate what virtually everyone realizes already: professional farmers already have multiple accounts to cover multiple territories and get around the territory switch cap. I've met a few and they all do it this way.

No no, make no mistake, the remediation that I and others are asking for is a precise matter of saving time. I want to spend time with my friends, in areas that interest us, pursuing goals that interest us. My friends and I have played the game a lot. We've been to a lot of areas. We've bought a lot of armor. My guild has never been able to complete all of the quests within UW and FoW, and it's precisely because of time. My guildmates are in the American territory, and we are all interested in visiting those areas. We cannot do so because of time. The time available to farm FOW is out of sync with the time available to us to play together.

Therefore, the proposal I have made is precisely opposite of what you say is logical suicide. It is, very precisely, a paid-for time saver provided to PvE'ers so that we don't have to grind in a PvP area we hate in order to secure favor. It's really not logical suicide at all - such a time shortcut is a direct comparison to the time shortcut available for purchase to PvP players. To use your own phrasing, basically the Free Roam pack would be a shortcut that lets PvE players play the portion of the game that they want during a time of day that is reasonable.

Voting aside Kate, I like your proposal just for the fact that I think it would be great to play with the European folks or Korean folks at will. It'd provide a better pace to the game as well, since some servers are more active at certain times. Plus you get to see new strategies for the missions, or reaffirm your old ones. I'd pay a $10 fee just for that. UW/FoW would be bonus.

It's funny how we often overlook the practical side of things. Thanks for that insightful post, btw. It's both profitable (and marketable) to leave the sweeping changes for new campaigns. Implementing new gameplay ideas into older zones not only costs dev time/money, but would lessen the impact of a new chapter's innovations. And therein lies upside and downside of Anet's campaign structure. Gameplay can evolve frequently, but older areas are left in the dust.

Just another way of looking at it.