[Dev Update] Farming and Loot Scaling

Type a code when you try to enter a 2nd or 3rd time in the same area for example, if think this take me over 3 seconds they could find a better way to stop the bots, and after 2 years thinking on it scale drop is the solution.
I think that a similar solution that scale drop could be that you can only leave the cities or outpost with all members in the group (other 3 seconds to think this), but what happens if you want to go out with less members for a better drop to the party, has the same problem than scale drop the freedom to choose, unless they has the same reward.

Rebalance???, equal distribution of something??, they don't rebalance simply they change skill for time, oppositely to which they always said, this is the change. Play more, get more loot, you cannot focus time in other way to get more loot that spend time, because you don't have the freedom to choose how to play. To balance 1 to 8, you need 7 more in the 1 side then 1+7=8.
And if someone is unhappy is normal, casual farmers must steal the loot from other players or something bad for that now they can't choose, is a punishment for being bad.

[QUOTE]you stated the following quote which combined skill over time with changes in the game play mechanics.

as i said that skill over time is for PVP not PVE and the PVP gane was unchanged by this.

i know who she is and has been helpful and pleasant each time i have contacted her

the problem is that many people have wildly divirging ideas on what is a reasonable amount of time/effort to obtain that cool loot.

i will give as an example the 3 tier armor system.

1 DROK as the LONG TERM GOAL for the casual player.

2. 15K armor for the serious player also taking a long time (months not weels) to get

3. FOW armor for the seriously hard core taking many months to over a year to earn.

when a casual player expects to get FOW armor in casual play they are getting way too much loot to begin with.

phone call bye

Ok....

In simple terms:

Anet's argument

8=1

My argument

8!=1; 8=8; 1=1

I'll do a math proof for it if you'd like.

Whether you like it or not, a person who solo kills the same number of monsters as an 8 person party should get all the drops, having done 8 times the work.

The only counterargument to that that is valid is if you believe that regardless of time, skill and effort, everyone should be rewarded equally.

If that's the case, there's no difference at all how you play, whether you solo, PUG or hero/hench. Because there's no incentive to do anything?

That's why socialist economies fail.

Most games I have played online do not drastically rebalance the entire economy after the game has been running more or less smoothly for two+ years, and having millions of dedicated and casual players. And IF such drastic measures are undertaken, its usually done for one of two reasons:

1. Public outcry. Yes, when players complain enough, things can change. However, this rebalance was not whined for that I can see, prior to this update, I don't remember ever hearing people say how unfair things were.

2. Hidden agenda. Yes, it happens, that companies do not always tell their customers everything. All this update serves to do is make title grinding more attractive (increasing rare drops in HARD MODE means Wisdom track for one) than economical grinding, its called a switcheroo. And it makes sense, sort of, given the "carry-over" Hall of Monuments, that requires players to buy EN so they can use them IN 2! So in one stroke, the devs have subtly encouraged the naive or otherwise uninformed to alter their playing habits to "mold" them to buy both their next expansion AND sequel. This is doubly apparent due to the NON-carryover of items and wealth.

Conspiracy theory? Maybe. But it seems the only logical reason for an update that does the exact OPPOSITE of what it purports to do.

I agree. If the dev team could do this, it would be ideal. But it's difficult to lessen the viability of bots without also lessening the viability of players who act like bots.
Unless all ways of play provide identical rewards, there will always be some styles of play that are less viable than others. As it stood before, PUGs/henchmen were far less viable than farming. How is heavily encouraging farming any more fair than heavily encouraging PUGs/henchmen?
Myself and several others have already pointed out that farming is not necessary for the enjoyment of the game. I don't know what more can be said on that subject.

I did read the post you quoted.

I'll elaborate on my response, since I can see how it could be misinterpreted: Nobody -- not GloryFox, not me, not ArenaNet -- is restricting you from playing the game the way you want to play it. You want to play with heroes and henchmen? Go ahead, and I hope you have fun playing that way. Don't worry so much about what other people are saying, just enjoy the game.
Agreed. Anet has done a pretty good job of supporting different play styles, and making the game enjoyable to different types of players.

That being said, (and this isn't meant as a direct counterargument to your post, but as a general observation) the game by design expects some types of play over others. For example, some players may choose to play by charming pets, leveling them to 20, and then selling them to the pet tamer, and have a fun time doing it. ArenaNet won't discourage them from doing it, but those players should realize that the game wasn't intended to be played that way, and that they might not be able to easily accomplish the same things that other players can do.

Guild Wars was created with certain play styles in mind, and while you have a wide range of freedom within those play styles, you don't have limitless freedom. That is a basic necessity of game design; you can't design a game to be fun without being able to expect that players will play within the bounds of some basic guidelines. If you don't like those basic guidelines, it's possible that you would be better served by playing another game.

so many people are missing the point whether it be deliberate or otherwise, and most of those missing it are 'experienced' players who have made their cash and kitted out their characters.

1. This game is for casual players as well as experienced.

2. Not all people want to make this game their life

3. getting builds together and time and effort to organise things such as guild mission runs etc. is not being a casual player.

4. The casual player could make enough money to get by doing a few low level solo runs to get some cash.

5. Now the casual player (I don't mean one who wants to work out builds for hard mode, or who wants to spend their life in a trading battle trying to sell stuff with a million other people in LA but the casual player) cannot make enough money to kit out their heroes, skills, runes etc. unless they upgrade from casual to advanced(so can't even afford to make these leet builds etc. that advanced players keep yelling about)

6. solo UW runs and green runs are done by advanced players, not casual players and are unaffected by the nerf which is probably why we see so many leet farmers telling us casual players to stop whining.

7. yes you can try and trade weapon mods, but have you seen weapon mod prices recently? unless you get a perfect sword fortitude or sundering mod you're lucky to even sell it after an hour of spamming. Apart from high level drops (advanced play yet again) and chest runs most of the drops are useless to the casual player

Bottom line, the advanced or experienced player can play as before and sees no problem with the update. The casual player who played the game for fun, has been stuffed by this nerf. You get no more cash for playing in a group or playing the game, just less if you try to make up the shortfall.

Anet are stating that this update is friendly to the casual player - they are wrong. This is a fact not an opinion, as can be seen by the many many casual players that are complaining.

Anet are going to lose revenue. People won't be able to afford to create new characters - loss of revenue in character slots. There will be a good percentage won't buy eyes of the north because of this. They haven't just made a tweak or small change to balance out the skills etc. They have destroyed a whole level of gameplay for the less advanced and poorer members of the playing society (who says games don't mimic reality o_O)

I don't recall anyone offically saying that what they advertised was only talking about part of the game. I tend to assume they are talking about the entire game unless they state otherwise. I see no reason why my success should be determined by time spent rather than skill in PvE either, personally. That's a big part of why I bought GW, in fact.

That's why farming and the economy are both irrelevent to me. As a casual player, I have gotten everything I need to be successful just by playing the game. The drops I've gotten just by playing through the campaign have been more than enough to get me max stats on my weapons and armor. Max equipment plus my modest level of skill have been sufficient to overcome every challenge I've tried so far given enough consideration and effort, along with a few retries when necessary.

As far as I'm concerned, that's all the game promised. If they happen to provide more than that, good for them.

[QUOTE=Loviatar]Does a casual player have to wait over 3 yrs or untill GW2 comes out to get their set of FoW armour no I wouldn't think so.Then there are those who have it already I wonder how long it took them to farm unless their guild bought it for them.It should take about 4 months say after ascending by playing the game right but the drop rate has been cut back so bad.It is worse than Government cut backs in services.

This is why you're wrong:

See, even ANet thinks you're wrong. I disagree with Gaile's assertion that solo farming hurts other players' games, that is the province of botting, but whatever.

I just wanted to point out that the basis for your argument is wrong. Have a nice day.

I'll quote myself and bold my point, so you don't miss it this time.

"Let them play" is not suggesting that they (GloryFox) is restricting any type of game play. It is a statement of "don't worry about it and go about your own business" (I figured this was logic, but I guess I was wrong) because, really... telling people to "grow up and play the game how it was intended" is not only contributing absolutely nothing of use to the conversation, but is incorrect anyway because there is no correct way of play style.

The same could be said for you and GloryFox. And, perhaps, all of the people defending this update. You don't like people being able to farm? Don't worry so much about what other people are doing, just enjoy the game.

This is your opinion. Would you please back it up with a source from Anet (not PC Gamer) in which they specifically state that the value of skill over time played only applies to PvP and not PvE rewards? Here is what I could find on the subject direct from my GW Prophecies (purchased before it was called that) box:
(boldface added for emphasis)


I don't care to argue this point further, so once again, I will let Gaile Gray's words do it for me:
According to Gaile, Anet's intentions are different then yours. Anet seems to think that all the "coolest" items in the game should be within reach of the casual gamer. Granted, she does not specify 15k armor or FoW as being the "coolest" items, but I think it is a reasonable inference from the context that they would be included in this category. The gist of the statement seems to be that Anet's intentions are that any item in the game should be relatively attainable by the casual player. So yes, many people have diverging opinions on this, but shouldn't Anet's opinoin be the final word?

I'm glad we have found some common ground. Personally though, I would prefer no fix to a fix that harms the community as a whole more than it helps it.

All right then, I suppose I should clarify my statement. What I should have said is that they are not directly encouraging playing in groups, rather they are heavily discouraging not playing in groups, something which they used to claim they were "fine" with. Does that make more sense?

Here's the problem. You only go so far as to say it's not necessary for the "enjoyment" of the game. Anet takes it a step further. As I have pointed out, Gaile Gray has said that it should not be necessary for the obtaining of the "coolest" items in the game. The problem is that the update actually increases the necessity to farm in order to obtain these items, it now takes more farming, solo or otherwise, in order to afford the high-priced "coolest" items.

This one wasn't directed at me but I would like to make one comment on the topic if that's all right? You're assuming that solo farming is the way we want to play. Personally, I can say that it is not, it is something I have resorted to from time to time to supplement my in-game income. The thing is that it used to be a method that was at least rewarding enough to counter my dislike of doing it, i.e. the rewards were good enough to make me not mind so much. Now this has changed, I don't care for solo farming, I wish it weren't necessary, and Anet has made it necessary to solo farm for even longer periods of time in order to gain the same reward as before, while failing to provide an alternative. So are they restricting me from the way I want to play? Yes, by ensuring that if I want to continue playing in my normal manner I will have to waste more of my time farming and so I have less to spend actually playing.

Please point out one time in which Guild Wars was advertised or promoted as a game which required social interaction. As far as I can tell, that is your opinion of what the game should be, not Anet's. Here is what I found from my GW retail box:
(boldface added for emphasis)

Your complaint is that solo play is "all about you." It's kind of funny that those are almost the exact words which Anet used to describe their game in the first place: "It's Your Adventure!...created just for you." It seems to me that it has always been Anet's intent that we have a choice on how we play, whether in solo or in groups. Henchmen were not provided as a last resort. For that matter, I don't see anything in that statement about being required to form groups with total strangers either, it said "friends," i.e., people I know and whose company I enjoy. If at any time Anet's policy has changed and I am now required to play only in groups in a social environment, please inform me and I will address my complaints directly to the appropriate department, because that's not the game I paid for.

Guys, "stop feeding the troll," (EDIT: in regard the the post advising people to "get a life;" not as a slant against the user who posted said comment) I reported the post, it should be gone soon. I don't know what else there is to say really. Other than I would classify myself as "casual" (1 level 20 about to beat Prophecies, 2 others chars. in early parts). I haven't farmed at all, but I was going to go out this summer and try to get enough money to buy some 15k armor(s). Right now I have maybe a total of 25k between my 3 guys, solely from doing quests/missions. This is only buying some armor, no runes (that I remember, all drops), weapons, etc.

Now, it seems like I may never get the armor I was looking forward to. I'm not going to grind Hard Mode, I don't want to spam the trade channel, I don't want to spend a weekend constantly going through Hard Mode to make any money. I've never even been in FoW/UW, though I do sort of look forward to popping in one or two times.

Unfortunately I have no good suggestions to add, as they have all already been stated, far more eloquently than I could.

I am also "guilty" of solo play; my guild has gone inert in the 1.5+ yr. I've been gone, and PUG's have such an appalling lack of class that I have no interest.

That's your opinion, not a fact. I've already explained that I disagree with that opinion, and judging by this update, so does at least part of the design team at ArenaNet. I will concede that the method you describe is very commonly used in other RPGs, but Guild Wars has many design elements that are contrary to common RPG standards.
Gaile said that (paraphrased) ArenaNet wants to make the game fun for all players, regardless of their style of play. That doesn't disprove my point, that Guild Wars was designed with certain play styles in mind.

I agree, although it has yet to be seen that this fix will produce net harm to the community. Economic issues like this take a while to settle out. If there is a high probability of this producing a net gain to the community, then Anet had a good reason to implement it. Keep in mind that the community, as a whole, is far larger than the set of vocal members of this forum.
I see where you're coming from, but encouragement/discouragement is relative. Personally, I view it as both styles being encouraged (approximately) equally, whereas previously farming was more heavily encouraged than grouping. Farming is still plenty profitable; it's just not as profitable as it was before.
I agree with Gaile. Farming isn't necessary for many of the coolest items (Obsidian armor being one major exception). It might be necessary if you want lots of the coolest items, but that isn't a reasonable goal for a casual player, and giving every player every item for free (or very cheap) would make for very poor replay value.

No, its not an opinion. If a single player kills the same amount of monsters as an 8 player group, then that player should get 8x the drops, unless something is seen as unfair regarding reward commensurate with effort. Its math, not opinion.

And the reason its so commonly used is because it makes sense both lore wise and reality wise, and why it works, whereas socialized economies do not.

Even though I disagree with a lot of things Gaile said due to the content, you can't argue that she said ANet wants to make the game fun for ALL players, even the solo farmers, jesus just READ her post!

And your point is PURE speculation, you don't know if the devs decided they only wanted a few styles of play, or wanted to give every player the opportunity to experience freeform gameplay, unless you ARE a dev or were for some reason included in design discussion.

So you're wrong, just as Gloryfox is wrong. Nothing bad about having wrong opinions, it just looks silly, especially when the PR person of ANet contradicts what you're arguing for.

I have said before and will most definetely agree with you now that it will take time to see the actual effect of these changes on the game's economy. However, I disagree that a net gain is more probable. I trust my own analysis of the situation better than Anet's assurances. Why? Past experience with both Anet and other gaming companies, the general trend of changes in the past several months, and admitedly, my inner cynic. But as you said, we'll have to wait to see who's right.

Also, you're right, the community as a whole is far larger than what is represented on these forums. However, any statistical analysis will generally accept such a random sampling of a population as a legitimate proportional representation of the population as a whole. By this, I think it is safe to assume that the opinions of the entire game community would be generally reflected by the opinions in these forums.

The problem with this is that solo farming is generally considered (at least by casual players) to be more difficult and time consuming than playing grouped. I'll readily admit that it is not necessarily eight times more difficult, but it is most definetely harder and longer by some measure. So, if both methods receive "equal" rewards, this effectively lowers the reward to the solo farmer below that of the group player when considered according to time invested. Also, by my own experience and that of others who I've talked to or who have posted here, farming is not "still plenty profitable," most agree (unless were talking about Hard Mode, but I'm considering casual players here) that it is a mere shadow of it's former self. Granted, this could be considered a matter of opinion, but rather than splitting hairs, I think Anet should concern itself with the general discontent of what appears to be a majority of the playerbase.

The difference is that Gaile makes no exception. Anet's claimed position seems to be that all of the in game items should be attainable on some level by the casual gamer. I agree with this general idea. I'm not saying that every player should have a nice shiny set of FoW armor handed to them in Pre-sear Ascalon, but I think that with a reasonable investment of time and effort, all should be available.

To help clarify, I'll explain a little about myself. I consider myself a casual gamer not because of how little time I've played, but because of the way in which I play. I have logged 1700+ hours over the past 21+ months (of course, no telling how much of that time was afk, after all I am the one who posted a pic of GW telling me "You have been playing for one week. Please take a break" ) In that time, I have one character who is level 20, and has beaten two campaigns, Prophecies and Nightfall (I got bored of Factions before I got anywhere near finishing it). Each campaign took me 3-4 months to finish, not weeks. I have one other level 20 who has ascended in Prophecies, but gone no further. I have two more level 20s, and 11 characters in all, two of whom are dedicated mules. My 4 level 20s each have 1.5k armor from one campaign or another. One of them actually has a single chest piece of 15k. It is the only piece of 15k armor in my posession, and I do not have a single piece of Obsidian armor, Vabbian, or any other expensive set. Up until about 2 months ago, all my characters used whatever weapons I had picked up as loot, mostly purples, even some blues and whites. Recently when I gave up and began solo farming on occasion, I found myself supplied with enough extra cash to afford a few nice gold weapons for a couple characters (at least, as long as I could sell what I farmed, which was an adventure in itself). Common skins, but good stats, so I felt the farming was then worth my time. Now that I would have to put in up to eight times as much of my time into doing it for the same reward, I'm not so sure.

I didn't mean to get so long-winded, but my point is this: if the "coolest" items should be available to all casual players (as Gaile says), then at what point should this happen? Is a year of playing enough time? How about two? When you consider that the game may be offline in another two years, it would be nice to get some of these items with enough time to actually enjoy them before the whole thing gets deleted. A lot of us have been around this game a long time, and we'd really like to partake of the "coolest" items which Anet has offered us, but as it stands, it seems that the only way to do it is now to become more than a "casual" player and spend more time farming than I do at my regular job. I'm sure some may find this worthwhile, but for me? Definetely not. I don't like games which dangle carrots in front of my face, and after I've spent time and effort working towards these, yank the reward far out of reach. I've been through it before and I don't care to put up with it again.

FoW Armor is supposed to be a LONG TERM goal.

Months and months of casual play.

That seems reasonable to me, granted the requirements for it.

So for the record: 21 months, long enough or not? Because after 21 months of casual play, I'm nowhere near being able to afford FoW.

If not long enough, how long would you say? Bear in mind that the game may only have a four year lifespan, and 21 months is getting awfully close to 50% of that lifespan.

Despite the fact that without hardcore farming, and after 23 months of regular play, I only have one character with partial FoW (the other part being Vabbi), that certainly seems reasonable to me too.

As a long term goal for a hardcore, dedicated player, who employs various methods to get it.

Now, thanks to ANet's rebalance, basic gear for heros and yourself, including maxed armor is the NEW long term goal. I suppose casual players in Normal Mode can rejoice everywhere, because now the only thing they have to look forward to is the same thing experienced players do:

hardcore grind.

whoopie.

I dont see how anything even changes for the regular joe who henches and pugs and doesnt solo farm.

Armor prices havent changed. Collector items havent been nerfed. Green item drops havent changed.

What basic gear are we talking about?

The average joe who didn't solo farm couldn't afford the basics before (ie skills and xp scrolls needed to get skill points), this has not changed for them. The difference is that now the casual farmer (for arguments sake, someone that farms for +-1hr a week) can't afford them now either.

Exactly!

Supposedly this update was supposed to be more friendly to the casual player or as you say, the "regular joe". However, when you analyze the situation it becomes obvious that nothing has really changed for them yet.

In fact even if player to player prices get driven down eventually, the average joe will just reap less of a reward when selling his few lucky drops if he chooses to do so.

The point many have made in here is that this update does NOTHING to help those it claimed to help, but rather seems more like a penalty directed at a specific group.

I've asked many times here and elsewhere and no one has yet been able to explain exactly HOW farming hurts the other players or the economy in general. It's just stated as fact. I've yet to see one player force another player to spend 100K +20 ectos for some nifty graphics. I've also yet to see how anyone who didn't have the latest fad skin was less effective in the game. Furthermore I've yet to see any indication that the casual player will EVER be able to afford to participate in the trading/selling of the "coolest" items by just playing the campaigns - with the lucky drop as the rare exception.

If anyone can give facts (not opinions) about how farming is actually harmful I would like to see them. Mostly what I see is statements like "I'm so tired of seeing WTS spams in town" or "farmers finally got what they deserved" or things of that nature.

The amount of gold in circulation is decreasing, which effectively raises the cost of fixed armor prices.

Collector items have been affected as the collectible drops used to get such items have decreased in drop rate.

What "regular joe who henches and pugs and doesnt solo farm" gets his hands on green items?

Gold increases in value due to less frequent drops, prices for armor stays the same. Result? Relative value of armor increases, actual time required to get increases.

Collector items have NOT been exempted, making them rare and harder to acquire.

In my 23 months of playing, I think I've gotten maybe two drops of greens in PUGs. To get a good chance at greens, the E/A or A/E sliver build is the best shot, requiring highly specialized gear, skills and runes, and is not easy to learn. To get the money for the build requires farming generally, as perfect 20% enchant mods do not fall out of the sky, nor do Totem Axes or Rajazan's Fervors grow on trees.

So that basic gear perhaps? Everyone does know that loot scaling actually affects the casual player in Normal Mode right, not the newly introduced Hard Mode?

Wow, I never thought this topic could go on for so long, that people would be so adamant about both sides, and that in the face of facts such as math, official statements from Gaile Gray, and personal experience in Normal Mode group and solo play, that people would keep refusing to see the obvious. The whole head in the sand thing is simply amazing.

your 21 months of casual play is meaningless without how many hours you have played or if you have been saving or spending as you go.

for the record FOW was never intended for the casual player period.

if you want to know how much you need to play per day to qualify to get it do the simple following math.

get the price of FOW armor plus materials.

divide that cost by the avarage amount of gold you make as a casual player with only a casual number of hours per week available to play into that total cost.

this will give you a rough idea of how many years (in weeks) it will take a casual player to get what would still take a seven day a week 6 hour a day (or more) hadrcore player many months to get.

FOW/15K is a reward for the harder core players by the very substantial gold/labor/time needed for them.

and yes Gaile said easier for casual players to get the nice goodies.

she said EASIER not right fast/real quick/real easy just like the cheap stuff but a wee bit longer.

FOW was a long term goal of the super hard core with the 15k being special but a lot easier/cheaper to get for the long term goal of the serious but not hardcore player and the 1.5k Drok armor as the again much cheaper/easier long term goal for the casual player who simply did not have the hours to play or dedication to get the FOW

they have a long term goal for each of those playing styles and the casual short time available player could go for the 1.5k Drok but never be close to FOW as they dont have even a fraction of the needed play time available for FOW.

Since when did getting the basic equipment required to even start playing become a long term goal??!

I sincerely hope that your comment that 1.5 Drok's armor should be a "long term goal" was worded poorly, because that seems ridiculous to me. The last "normal" armor, that you are brought to the main story-line (or at least directly to the city it's in); shouldn't be attainable at least relatively soon after you get there (w/in a couple hours game-time [say max of 8])?

That would make me stop for good, because my level 20 got 1.5k as soon as she got there, normal play only, no farming; and if my next one through couldn't get it then... I would be one *sad* panda.

I can't speak for others, but I expect to be able to afford armor in the new city (that the game led me to no less), pretty soon after I get there. As blackbird71 and kaleban have said, this update makes that into an unreasonable expectation.

*Edit: format, and adding a more coherent "point"*

Gold drops have not decreased for players who have always been in full groups.

Only for people who solo farm.

Casual player unaffected. Solo farmer affected.

Again...only for people who solo farm.

Its the same exact rate if you always played in full groups.


Ive done Tombs with full groups of 8 and gotten greens. Ive gotten greens from SF too.

I didnt know casual players actually went through all that trouble....

That doesnt sound so casual to me. That sounds like a hardcore farmer to me.

Loot scaling affects party size.

Casual players != Solo Farmers

The scaling nerf doesnt affect people who play in full groups. The game is exactly the same.

Ya you said it.

If you'd have bothered to read everything, you'd see that I had logged 1700+ hours, so there's that infor for you. And yes, I have been saving every bit I possibly could, it's just what I do.

You keep saying this regardless of the fact that Gaile and Anet disagree with you.

I've done the math, and at my current play capability, if I did nothing but farm, no playing anything else at all, depending on my luck with drops I figured it would take me between 2 and 4 months of work to get a set of FoW. I figured I could spread it out a little longer and actually enjoy other parts of the game at the same time. That was before the update. This increased my estimates by as much as a factor of eight. If i'm going to spend every minute of my free time in GW dong nothing but farming until the day the servers go down, what's the point?

Only for the "super hard core?" Once again, you keep saying stuff like this regardless of what Anet has said their intentions were. Your personal opinions obviously conflict with what they claim the purpose of these items are. Please stop claiming that you know what Anet intended when their own words have proven this false.

True. The problem with such simplistic logic is it ignores the overall effect of less gold in the economy, which increases the relative value of it, meaning that such things as regular crafting materials, and the basic crafting price rise. REGARDLESS of who's affected, this is the case across the board.

Never said it wasn't, the two main points that have been discussed in this thread is the "farm hate" that ANet denies it has, and the economy being turned on its ear. Casual players generally benefit from farmers because we flood the market with items, not gold. This increases supply and lowers the demand, which means items which initially were 100k or more are now 10-15k. BOTS flood the market with gold, and have the inverse effect.

An area with repeatable quests, no "completion" and items that are of known value. Huh, sounds like farming to me.

Never said most casual players did, I said that for a reliable chance at greens, where one could make a steady income selling to players and player traders, one would need to do something along those line. Out of reach for the casual player.

By altering the way the economy works, you better believe it affects each and every player, regardless of playstyle. Look, I don't know how to explain simple economics any more clearly, between myself, and a few other notable posters in this thread, we've come up with concise and rational arguments, some even put in charts and graphs! But of course, none of it can penetrate such thick armor.

I certainly did.

You're not thinking globally. The idea that these changes only affect solo farmers is wrong. Anet has stated that the purpose in these changes was to decrease the total amount of gold in circulation in the economy as a whole. These changes affect everyone, be it the amount of gold in circulation, the total number of collectible item drops, or whatever. What affects one group of players ultimately affects the entire game.

But thats really the only case i can think of that is affected.

I think Anet hates farming to the extent that players who can earn 300k in less than a weekend through pure grinding (ive done that before) are way on the other side of the spectrum and ruining it for players who grab henchies and clear the map as they quest around and sell the drops, because we can cause outbid players for rarer items.

I dont see this farming nerf as turning the economy on its ear. Rare items are exempt from the scaling, so i dont see what changes there. Rare materials are exempt too.

The only thing, as youve pointed out, that i see as a problem is common materials.

Well I was...am.... rather a heavy farmer.

The point as to illustrate that you dont have to solo farm to get greens.

You can be part of a pug and the drop rates are still the same even after the scaling.

Tombs and SF are more casual areas (compared to UW/FOW/DEEP/URGOZ/DOA) and the builds required there are common.

Barrage - Markis from a PRIMARY mission
Minion Master - Dont you get minions like in pre-searing.....

And still completely unaffected by scaling.

While i agree that it will affect many players, i think it is too soon to have any clear vision as to what direction the economy will take.

All other economy arguments are still conjecture until we see evidence of change.

Personally, i see the economy taking more on a barter system, relying more heavily on high end stackable items like ecto.

[QUOTE=Loviatar]That's right. In PvP players unlock skill with balthazar faction - which makes a skill completely available to all futue PvP characters on the account. And the amount of balthazar faction that one can attain in playing PvP was not altered one tiny bit by the update.

In PvE skills are purchased with gold. Gold earned through playing PvE (like faction earned in PvP). When gold is used to unlock a skill it is for that character's use and that character only as far as PvE is concerned. If you wish to add that skill to a future char, you have to pay the 1000g again. This makes gold more valuable to the PvE player than faction is to the PvP player. The amount of gold one can accumulate in normal mode WAS reduced by this update. So now it take more time to make new gold than before. Which means that more time spent = more gold = more skills to choose from = more adaptable characters = greater opportunity to play. In short, no moer than ever time played is what allows you to have skills. without time played, no skills.

I think Lovi is talking about player skill, not character skill.

Also I thought thats why they added skill tomes?

So only gold amount, white items, blue items, purple items, crafting materials and salvage items are affected by loot scaling. Not bad, IMO.

Upshot of this nerf...

leet farmers - hardcore farmers are unaffected they still make the cash

casual player, who had to farm a bit to make the cash he needed is now unable to do so effectively.

group player who this nerf is meant to help - no difference in drops at all.

If they were going to nerf solo farming, surely it would have been better to increase party drops and quest rewards (skills and useful items to still limit gold if that's what they want, customised so they can't be sold) to help out the person who plays the game casually and can't afford skills, runes and weapons on top of armor.

Helping the casual player should have been just that, not penalise the casual solo farmer and do nothing to help the casual player but let the leet farmers get off scott free.

oh and for the record, they say rare gold drops are unaffected by loot scaling, my gold item drops have decreased drastically in solo farming in normal mode. So I think they've exempted them from scaling but reduced teh drop rate.

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I will explain the reasoning for the change:
...
"All players were seeing high prices for the most desirable items; they noted a push to unattainable of items they wanted to get.

The only players able to attain the coolest items fell into a certain player type, the farmer.

This reduced the fun factor of the game, in that the game seemed to require that players play in a certain way if they wanted to get those items.

Farming is ok with us, no problem at all, but we did not intend that farming would be 'required,' or that only farmers would be able to obtain the coolest items."
...
Here's one way of looking at it, perhaps this will make sense to some: The intention of loot scaling is not to "punish" the expert farmer. The intention is remove the numeric punishment that was previously inflicted upon those who play casually and/or who play in a party."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The fact that prices vary for items is a function of the economic aspects of the game, and the human condition. Desireable items costing more then others is hardly unusual. The alternative is that both desireable and un-desireable items cost about the same. Reason, to the best of my knowledge, does not lead one to that conclusion.

"...push to unattainable of items they wanted to get." How so? What evidence is there to support that ascertion? The price of Rare and Green items can be tracked, and the trend line is almost always downward. At the same time, the number of different Rare and Green Items continutes to grow.
This site has shown the evidence that contradicts the "unattainable" declaration. In addition, the most unattainable items in the game are purely created by "you" (antecedent = Gaile Grey's "us"). The Ghostly Hero mini-pet, for example, currently sells for about 7 million GW Gold, the Panda around 5 million GW Gold. Anguish and Zodiac weapons carry sever price tags also. Clearly, casual gamers (i.e. the general public) have little or no chance to ever own something like that. On the contrary, 15^50, 20/20, +30 items continue to drop in price and availability.

(paraphrase) "Only Farmers attain the coolest items." The community of people who possess GW Gold purchased online is hardly insignificant. Nor are the "cool" items that they possess. The characterization "Farmer" is so vague as to discount reasonable use. The population of "Farmers" is, without doubt, larger then the population of non-farmers. Documented farming includes anything from Solo to 8-man teams. Un-documented farming includes anyone who kills monsters for the drops, afk's for Title points, and lots of other practices. It wasnt' too long ago that people cleaned out parts of pre-Searing, or the Ascalon area just hunting for Dye. If "Only Farmers attain the coolest items" is true, then most of the GW players have the coolest items. Those who make their money in the buy/sell game are "Farmers", too. Likewise, their numbers at hardly insignificant. GW, to its credit, provides a plethora of alternative ways to spend one's time and each can lead to attaining desireable items. The game does not require that a player take a specific approach to acquire funds. The whole concept that the game allows any player to select any approach to reach a specific goal is hardly arguable. But, the argument that the best way to position oneself to make GW Gold is to purchase all three games is almost axiomatic.

The premise that farming is required and that only farmers have the coolest items, is offered to us with the "believe it because I said it" argument. Enough said in light of the previous text.

"...remove the numeric punishment" Well, let's look at that. I believe you are referring to reducing the delta between Average Joe and Super-farmer Bob. For example, AJ was making 100g per day while SfB was raking in 100k per day. But now, SfB is only pocketing 12.5k per day (forget the buy/sell population). And you AJ...well, you are still making about 100g per day. And the conclusion is that AJ now has more access to desireable items. Food for thought for any reader who has made it this far...lol.

My observation was that before the "loot balancing" update, the game was moving along rather smoothly, albeit with a downward trend. Everybody and their brother was wandering around with flashy armor, uber weapons, and a zoo of mini-pets. After the update, to use the vernacular, all hell broke loose. This attempt to "...explain the reasoning" threw gasoline rather then water on the fire. (rats...that's close to a mixed metaphor....I better stop).

Take care, namaste...good luck to all.

No offense, but it's frankly not worth my time debating this with you if you can't demonstrate a basic understanding of the difference between fact (or math?) and opinion.

I suppose we may have a difference of opinion here, but I would argue that forums such as this one tend to have a much higher concentration of "hardcore" players to casual players. It makes sense, if you think about it: hardcore players have more time invested, and they have a deeper understanding of the game, so they have more of an incentive to discuss the intricacies of the game and meta-game. A casual player is not nearly that dedicated; they might spend five hours a week in the game, and have really no reason (or time) to discuss the game outside of that time.

From my anecdotal experience, my friend who is the most casual player has never looked at GuildWiki or any forums, the next most casual ones occasionally read the wiki, and only the most hardcore of my friends (including myself) have read any GW-related forum with any regularity.

A couple of points on this:
First of all, if you reread Gaile's post carefully, she never said that FoW armor should be attainable by casual players. She only said that "the coolest items" (she doesn't specifically say all of the coolest items) should be obtainable by more than just farmers. (This would include "hardcore" non-farmers.) I think you've been misinterpreting this in your last couple of posts.

I think we would all agree that FoW armor is in a completely different price bracket than any other item in the game, and is realistically impossible for any casual player to obtain. I'd love to hear Gaile's or one of the dev team's comments on the purpose and "target audience" of FoW armor, but given the situation I don't think that's going to happen at the moment.

Secondly, the game reward system is designed to provide different levels of motivation for vastly different styles of players. Sure, Anet could easily enough make FoW armor accessible to casual players, but then hardcore players would be able to get it in a matter of weeks or even days, and have no more incentive to play the game. So as someone mentioned earlier, there are different tiers of incentives: 1.5k armor and collectable weapons for casual players, 15k and greens/golds for moderate players, and FoW/rare skins for the most hardcore players. Personally, I think this is a great solution, as everyone has something to work for and take pride in, but at the same time, the game remains interesting for all different levels of players, regardless of their time commitment.

An awful lot of people are still upset about the solo farming loot scaling, saying that it hurts the "casual gamer" by making baseline gear more difficult to get. On the contrary, we should expect to see enormous deflation in the coming months.

A farmer has two kinds of income - straight money from selling whites, blues, purples, collector's items, etc. This translates directly into money, which the farmer then presumably uses to buy items from other players. The farmer can offer vastly greater amounts of straight money than other players, crowding them out of the market. This causes prices for commonly used items, like ecto, mods, gemstones, etc to skyrocket. Eventually, if this kind of income is left unchecked, almost all items will be almost completely outside of the means of common players. This type of income was hit hard, so we won't see prices going upwards as much.

The second type of income comes from gold drops, ectos, and the like. These can only be sold for small amounts of money to the merchant, and are often sold to players for a much larger profit than the merchant. This forms the "supply" side of the economy. These crops have been left the same, if not slightly increased.

The net result of this is that we're going to have increased supply of items that no one has the money to pay the prices they used to be going for. Thus, everything gets cheaper, and money gets relatively more valuable. So if you're not a big farmer, you'll now be able to afford more than old shoelaces and +20 health mods. Farmers, you just need to spend more time selling stuff in order to preserve your cash flow.

Anyway, if you have stuff to sell, I'd recommend doing it now, before things start to lose value. On the flip side, if you need to buy stuff, I'd consider waiting a few weeks, if you can.

*wipes forehead*

Well i do agree with everything you said on that post. I think that a0net had become over-obsessed with balance in Guild Wars (and as a result, we have seen countless nerfs aimed at farmers, and a highten overall in affordability of items).

Also notice that the ventari's sell forums have become rather desolate?

Even though prices go down, still hard to make money for the higher end items. For me, it wasn't about getting the money to buy stuff. I just enjoyed solo farming areas while waiting for my friends to get on. Now there is nothing to do in between and it's hard to meet up with my friends since they use to do the same. I'll catch them farming and then we all go off and do a quest or mission. Now, I rarely see them log on since they all just log on and can't find anything to motivate them until the rest of us get on .

I think the unattainable items like FoW armor is not even harder to obtain. Before, if you really wanted it, you could always farm the money to buy the mat. Now, it's hard enough to come up with enough money to buy one ecto just by playing through a mission or two. Not sure how far prices will drop so we'll wait and see.