[Dev Update] Farming and Loot Scaling

I totally agree with what blackbird71 stated on page 11 of this very thread. Blackbird71 stated everything I wished to express.

Now I would like to apoligize to Anet. When they updated the loot scaling I predicted what would happen with in game prices...and they came true with ecto hitting 11k friday morning, so I came here to guru because Gaile said in game to "post concernes on forums" so I did so. I stated in my frustration that I would leave the game...this was the first time Anet had driven me to even think about doing so. I had been frustrated with many of their recent game changes but nothing came close to this update. I was going to give Anet one month to change(thinking full well that they weren't because of the way they have acted on previous updates) but in less then 24 hours they updated the game. So I wish apoligize not for what I said but for the fact that I thought you(Anet) were just not going to listen to your costumers and would think that everything you choose to do is the best idea since air. So I am sorry, you proved that you do listen(at least to some extent) to the guildwars community on fan forums.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread (and I'm really glad that you are saying it) but it is the weekend ...

My guild is a tiny guild, but the large portion of 46 players in it are actively seeking a new game as a direct response to the update. The reasons range from the farming nerf to the dislike of the AI changes.

What does that mean about the update? Hmm, I am not sure, but it is hard to go over the official line and smile about losing a lot of people just to nerf bot farmers. Mmmmmmaybe, the solution is to not make everyone leave? Instead, modern economy models show market places function as financial vents for "extra" real life gold. Why not the "stock market" aka auction house to manage gold and in-game items? It works for the real world, every other online game, and literary world.

huh, interesting logic there.

Do 8x work, get 1x reward. GG Lenin.

To be honest, the nerf doesn't affect me so much personally because I usually farmed greens and such anyways, I rarely if ever did things like vermin and kirin farming.

What I am against is the rationale used to defend the nerf (socialism) and the fact that those hardest hit will be the players, while making bots' services more valued.

You people can claim we're all a bunch of whiners as much as you want, but when ectos and other rare items continue to rise in price, while the supply of gold drops off, resulting in a double hit to the economy, you can remember this thread.

And to those who say gold farming is all great and good now. I see the average merch price of golds is around 5-6 times a max white. So if you were to get a gold drop 1 out of 6 monsters instead of a white drop 6 out of 6 monsters, is there a change? No. [edit] remember, the gold drop rate is only altered in Hard Mode, not some place that is forgiving to the casual, NOT spend 10 hours a day playing gaming crowd.

This is cosmetic masking at best. Agree with me or not, makes no difference to me, I don't take offense from anonymous forums. All I'm trying to do is posit alternative solutions to a problem that imho ANet keeps bungling over and over again with each successive nerf/update.

I have tried to respond to several points made by many posters with opinions different from my own. In quoting a few individuals, I am not trying to single anyone out, but rather I have used the words of those who seemed to have the most understandable and rational explanations of their views. To those I quoted, thanks for being reasonable and civil, let's all try to keep it that way.

Thanks for the support. Like you, I also dislike farming. Farming or any type of a grind is not how I want to spend my free time. However, after over a year and a half of avoiding it, playing through with mediocre equipment and standard armor, then with the advent of heroes, I came to accept that it was the nature of the beast. High end, fixed price, costly items set the terms for the market, and simple questing did not yield enough to get them, so I had to turn to farming. I don't farm constantly, that would defeat the purpose, but I farm occasionally and I gradually build towards goals of items I wish to purchase. I still do not have rare skinned items or 15k armor, etc, I just farm for better equipment. I do not find farming enjoyable, but having better equipment with better stats has made the game more fun, so I farm not because farming itself is fun, but because with reasonable investment of time, it could improve the rest of my game.

Also, it seems that the thread I linked to with my economic analysis has been removed. To add a little more to my summary, let me say that the change has effectively implemented an exchange rate in which every 1 new gold which appears in game has approximately eight times the rarity and therefore eight tiems the value of 1 old gold in existence before the update (1 new gold = 8 old gold). The problem is that this exchange rate is then applied to all old gold in existence in characters' inventories or players' storage, effectively multiplying the value of such gold by a factor of 8. This means that those who had large amounts of gold to begin with now have even more, and there is enough of this gold in circulation to keep high priced items at or near their previous values. At the same time, new gold is harder to come by, and therefore those who need new gold and do not have old gold hoarded are still in a difficult position so far as earning enough gold to purchase high priced items. Eventually, the prices for market items should adjust to the changes and even out, but not until most of the hoarded old gold has been spent and recirculated. How long this will take is anybody's guess, but the time becomes an issue when you consider that the advent of GW2 has placed a limit to the lifetime of the GW economy. Meanwhile, as the market items adjust, and prices drop to reflect less gold in the open market, the relative value of fixed cost items (armor, kits, etc.) will increase, making them even harder to obtain for the casual player. I fail to see how this effect on the economy is good for anyone except the hardcore "expert" farmers who already have a great deal of wealth.

It is less grinding because when exploring an area with a party, it takes more time and earns 1/8th of the reward. Both can be called grinding, but if done right, you effectively spend less time doing it solo. But yes, higher quest rewards would definetly remove the need to farm.

(boldface added for emphasis)

I agree, but that question needs to be directed towards Anet, not the playerbase. They set the prices for the fixed high-end items, and the rarity of valuable drops, they have set the terms for the economy. As the players we just try to find ways to cope with it as best we can.

The fallacy here is believing that Anet has eliminated the need for farming. On the contrary, the need to farm to afford high-end items placed in game by Anet is alive and well, they have just hobbled the means of doing it, and made it even more of a pain to accomplish.

Boredom? Others may have used this argument, but it's not one I agree with nor have I seen much of. Actually I find farming to be the pinnacle of drudgery in this or any game, but as stated before, thanks to the system established by Anet, I've found it to be a necessary evil, and this update does nothing to change that. At least before the update, casual players could spend a minimal amount of time farming to meet their needs and wants, now that time has been increased. What's the point in that?

I think we both agree on the purpose of the game here, and that is that it should be fun. Where we disagree seems to be whether this update has increased the opportunity for fun, or decreased it. I only see more tedium ahead in order to reach the same goals as before.

The problem here is that you are lumping all farmers into one category. The fact is that there are two, the hardcore "expert" farmers, and the casual farmers who only farm occasionally to supplement their normal gameplay. All these new things are wonderful for the former, but how does the addition of an elite system (Hard Mode) and the scaling of loot for lower end items but not those rare objects in elite areas (ecots, etc) help the casual farmer? Isn't the casual farmer more of the average player who Anet claims to want to help? And the "pre-defined farming income" is not solely created by the community, rather it has been kept in a relative range by the presence of fixed-price items, which were coded by Anet and have a great influence on the economy.

QFT Anet has palced a large number of fixed cost gold sinks in the game, but then decides to make it harder to obtain the gold to purchase said sinks. If they really want to encourage the trade of gold between players instead of it going to merchants and being removed from circulation, why all the high end, high priced sinks?

To answer that, let me quote again from Gaile Gray:
Apparently, according to Anet's representative, every "average joe" should be able to afford the 15k armor and other high end items, they claim that that was the point of the update. Whether or not it accomplished this is what is up for debate. I seem to note a constant disparity between what Anet states it's intentions are and what occurs in reality, and that is why I get upset with Anet's actions. If the difference is caused by incompetence, they should just leave the game alone. If it is caused by design, then they are intentionally deceiving the community by claiming one intent when they have alterior motives. (note I have not accused any individual of anything, but have postulated the possibilites as I see them, don't take it as flame, it's merely speculation on my part. I wish I didnt' have to clarify, but people seem overeager as of late to take offense)

I'll agree that an increase in the amount of "rare" items in game should eventually lower their cost. The problem is that there will also be a decrease in the amount of currency in circulation, which will in turn increase the relative cost of fixed-price items, pushing those items farther out of reach. Personally, this is the bigger issue to me, I could care less about having a weapon with a rare skin, I don't really like most of the rare skins. What I do like is nice looking armors, and with the cost of all armors being fixed at a set value, they all become relatively more expensive.

I don't think it would be much extra work to change that part of the coding. As it stands, bosses often drop more than one item, it shouldn't be difficult to spread this functionality to other enemies. I don't know if this is the best solution, but it is certainly a thought that has some merit and ought to be given consideration.

Once again, the problem with any change to an economy is that there are so many variables that there will always be opposing views on how that change will truly affect the economy. We can agree that the economy needs fixing on behalf of casual players, what remains to be seen is whether or not these changes actually accomplish that goal, or if they work against it. Over the past few days, there have been many posts, some saying that the new system works great, others that it is worse than before. I'm afraid that a few days is not enough time to see the effects of a change this big on a system this complex. Rather, it will take weeks if not months to see the total effect on the game's economy, and who knows, by that time they may change something else. Personally, I have my opinion on how this will affect the game's economy. I see this being beneficial only to the "expert" farmers, as those who farm in Hard Mode, or for high end items like greens, or in elite areas such as UW and FoW, will see little decrease in their gains. The group I see being hurt the most are the casual players, who either farm occasionally to support their gameplay, or who rely on drops during missions and quests as they play the campaigns and strive to improve their characters. It is the casual gamer who will see the greatest impact on what they can earn and the value of what they do earn. Am I right? That remains to be seen, we can debate about it all we want but only time will tell. Like I said, I have my opinions and ideas, but I will reserve ultimate judgement until I see the true results.

I enjoy hard mode and the drops. But if find that easy mode has the problems now. Me and several friend find that while hard mode has increased drops normal mode has suffered with decreasing rates for ectos and several other items..i think this is rather unfair for people whod rather solo farm uw or fow on regualar mode. Or mabey me and my friends are mearly having bad luck?

My drops in normal rot with full hero/henchie team are about 1 half of what they used to be. This seems limited to rot for me.

Golds in HM aren't anywhere near 1/6th the drop rate of pre-nerf whites. You'd know that if you tried it yourself. They are only worth farming if you sell them to players.

Mind explaining how people can charge higher prices when no-one has the gold to pay for them?

The gold is fake, so why sweat it

Hardcore farmers did and will continue to have plenty of gold to buy whatever they want. Anet assured this when they 'split the herd' by excluding ectos and doa gems from scaling. So anet's 'chosen' folks will always have plenty of gold to pay exorbitant prices for niche items.

The rest of us? Well not so much cuz we don't meet anet's idea of worthy apparently...because we were all somehow ruining the economy and need to be punished.

No one? Are you sure? Or are you just overgeneralizing for the sake of your argument?

You do realize that if nobody was willing to pay for the items at the price requested, the prices would drop, right? Obviously there are people that can and people that do. As long as there are people willing to pay ridiculous prices, sellers will continue to ask for them.

If items are in short supply and someone wants that item and has the money to pay for that item, they will pay for it at the price asked. If nobody will pay for it at the price asked, the seller will be forced to gradually drop the price until someone bites.

That problem is still going to exist with this update. There are going to be the people who have the money that are willing to spend it, there are going to be the people who have the money but are unwilling to spend it and there are still going to be the people who don't have the money. As long as the people who have the money are willing to spend it, prices for low supply high demand items will still be ridiculously high priced.

Thank you for proving my points yet again.

So no matter what you do, you will be unable to accumulate as much wealth as pre-nerf, solo or group. Yay fun.

Secondly, as blackbird71 explained so eloquently, is that if you decrease supply of gold such that its drop rate increases its value 8 times, than that 15k armor you could previously get is now WORTH 8 times more.

Nothing stops a player from setting their prices. The actual price of an item may drop, say a sword from 50k to 35k because gold is scarcer, BUT due to the relative value of gold going up, its actually increased in price!

But if you want to believe that this change will make crystalline swords attainable to the general public, fine. You can believe that. But unless ANet ALSO reduces the value of fixed price items like armor (and MAKES insignias fixed already) and heck even id/salvage kits and especially skills, the average player will quickly see his or her gold vanish. An 8 fold drop in gold drops means cap sigs cost a relative 8k gold now, compared to the old economy. A bit expensive don't you think?

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post. My comment was an attempt to defend arcanemacabre's quote, which I believe was suggesting that because hard mode is profitable, players have little reason to play in ways that they don't enjoy. Either way is profitable enough to cover expenses, so you're free to choose whichever one you like best.

I think I already explained my logic before, but if not, I'll restate it:

1. This is a game, not real life. In real life, money is paid by employers in exchange for work or productivity. In a game, there is no work or productivity, so money is used to aid a player's progression through the game and give them optimal enjoyment. Whether this is directly related to killing monsters is irrelevant. In Guild Wars, money is used to provide players with interesting choices on how to spend it.

2. This is a virtual world, not a real economy. Money can be indiscriminately created and destroyed based on arbitrary rules. Real economic principles don't directly apply in the case of interaction with money-creating NPCs.

3. If playing the game is work to you, perhaps you need to take a break from it or find a different hobby.

And just as a friendly tip, I think ANet and Gaile (as well as the rest of the forum members) would be a lot more receptive to your comments if you left out the name-calling.

On this I think we can agree 100%.

Now you've lost me. I think I must have missed something. Anet upped the rewards in every other playstyle "preferred" by players? When did this happen? Did I not see something on the update notes? All I saw that was increased was the drop rates in the new "Hard Mode." The drops were increased in the new, "elite" portion of the game. And as far as I can tell, playing Hard Mode is just another way of farming. You repeat the same areas and missions that you've already done, and why? For better loot. It would be different if there were new quests for HM or something like that, but as it stands, Hard Mode is just another farm/grind. The problem is that it's farming for the high end players. I haven't seen anything noting an increase in the items or areas frequented by the average, casual player. The casual player whom Anet claims to love and support. Help me out here, I'm not seeing how this connects at all.

This controversy has been raging on for sometime now, and I would rather not waste time adding to this thread ANet will likely ignore.

I earned by 15k armor after about 5 days of farming Ettins, that was BEFORE Ettins were nerfed, and BEFORE loot scaling.

This doesn't help at all. I make more money doing a mission in Hard Mode, something that is not as desirable as classic farming.

Look. How about we just stage a rebellion meeting somewhere in-game?

Doesn't sound like it would do much good. Frankly I'm starting to appreciate the idea of a monthly fee since then you can 'vote with your wallet' more directly. this change won't have any real effect on anet's bottom line until GWen rolls around and then they won't necessarily see it for what it is.

The advent of Hard Mode did not remove Normal Mode from the game. So many of you seem to be missing that fact in your arguments. Its not solo farm vs. hard mode, its farming vs. playing in normal mode.

1. Right and wrong. GW is not real life, but people put time into it, and expect something out of it. Whether that's enjoyment from PUGing, capping elite skills, hero/henching masters' missions or even FARMING, the concept is a player expends time and effort, and gets something in return. If Player A puts in X amount of effort, and Player B puts in 4x amount of effort, why should Player B receive the same rewards as Player A? That's not fair based on effort expended.

2. Right and wrong again. Right regarding this not being a real economy, wrong about money being indiscriminately created by NPCs. The only way money is introduced into the economy is by the number of man-hours expended by the players as a ratio to loot and sales of loot. I have yet to see the "Mint NPC" or the Money Tree.

3. Playing the game MY way is not work, I enjoy the challenge in farming where and when I choose. Sorry that my fun is not your fun, but we're two different people.

The Lenin comment was in reference to your apparent idea that its okay to reward people equally regardless of the amount of time and effort. Gaile and ANet don't seem receptive to ANY player's comments who don't agree with them and fawn over them. I could be wrong, but meh, its only a game. Too bad its not as fun as it was before.

You know, just the length of these threads and the arguments presented should be a clue to even the most thick that there IS something wrong with the update, telling people to just roll over and accept it kind of defeats the entire point of having a discussion forum.

I was severely ticked off by this change when I first read the update news. I told my girlfriend "There's no point in ever playing that game again." Because I'm not a great player. I've never beaten the game with any of my characters (though I have a ranger sitting 1 mission away from the end), haven't made any ventures into uber areas. I like getting stuff, collecting bows and trinkets and my ultimate goal is to have a complete stack of every crafting material there is. I might have made it if I hadn't gotten antsy and sold them all off to play Nine Rings a while ago...

I farm to get stuff I want. It's tedious and frustrating at times. I sell everything to merchants because I hate sitting in town trying to read the scrolling spam of the trade community. On average, I make 3 plat/half hour. Most of it from white items. It's sufficient income for my purchases, usually.

After thinking about it a couple days, I'm still annoyed. Gold (money) and white and blue and purple drops are a fraction of what they used to be. I've got no chance of having even the small amount of cash I used to pull in. I see people complaining about not being able to afford their 15K armors. What about us not-so-1337 players who just need the necessities?

Explain it to me. Does this mean prices for armor materials and capture signets and otther things will go down? Will there ever be hope for players, old and new, to make their way through the game without having to spend 8 times as much time trying to earn what they need?

I just recently talked my sister into buying Factions to try. I kind of regret that, now. I've personally spent around $300 on Guild Wars - all campaigns, extra character slots, instore upgrades, promo items - for myself and my girlfriend. I really regret that, now. I can't say if I'll be giving Anet any more of my money. I want to say never again, no more GW, no GWEN, no GW2, nothing, but I don't know.

I don't know if I want to play anymore. It's really depressing. So tell me, how are the not-so-great players supposed to be better off, now? This sucks.

i agree here with you. and like i posted in another forum:

Personally, I believe that collector-related drops should be exempt as well. Plenty of people try to reduce party size just to increase the chances of getting X certain collector items, required by Y collector in order to get some other Z item... Right as things are, collectors are further away of casual player's reach.

I believe (based on my experience with the in-game reward system) that there is a discrepancy between how Anet and players are viewing high-end content. Judging by the prices of armor and such, I think Anet intended 15k/Obsidian armor to be somewhat of an endgame reward, to be obtained after you've already acquired all the skills/runes for your character. From my experience, it isn't hard at all to pay for 15k armor just by doing Titan quests, Sorrow's Furnace, FoW/UW, etc., assuming that you're not spending money toward skills or other expensive items. It was intended as an advanced goal for someone who has been acquiring money for a while.

Thing is, a lot of players seem to think that 15k armor should be attainable soon after they reach the crafter. I don't know if this issue is the fault of the players (for thinking they "deserve" 15k armor), the fault of Anet (for not giving players the resources needed), or the fault of farmers (for devaluing 15k and giving the appearance that farming is mandatory). I don't really have the knowledge to really answer that.

But I do see a pretty noticeable difference in the way the game was designed and the way people expect it to work, in that issue particularly.

This is true if you base your measurement of "effort" solely on number of monsters killed. I would argue that this is not a useful metric. By that metric, a healing monk expends no effort, because he/she is not killing things. And what about external efforts? Are planning builds and coordinating teams not effort? Effort is not so easily measured as the number of kills a player earns.

Time is a more measurable metric, but ArenaNet has repeatedly stated that Guild Wars was not designed to reward players for time rather than skill.
Glad to hear that you enjoy it. But if you truly enjoy what you are doing, then why do you feel that you should be compensated at a rate 8x what other players are earning?
I dunno about you, but one thing I've learned from Internet discussions is that some people like to make a big deal out of little things. I've been guilty of that many times.

I'll spell it out for you. B-O-T. Not farmers, botters.

If perception is reality when it comes to gaming, then who is in the wrong, the players or ANet?

I'm glad you would argue this, but sadly you're wrong. What is the one constant in GW that you CANNOT avoid if you wish to advance your character? Monsters must die, so you can gain experience and skills. A healing monk is a support character, who by their very nature is allowing the ones doing the killing to continue, thereby directly contributing to the kill, and hence their share of party loot.

When it comes to in-game loot, kills ARE the only metric. Planning builds and coordinating efforts facilitates more efficient killing, thereby the loot gain is increased proportionately, giving a direct, concrete reward for those efforts.

If their actions were in line with their statements, that would be one thing. But introducing titles that are nothing BUT time and grind somewhat contradicts their grand design, does it not?

I don't feel I should get 8x what another player earns, I expect to get the rewards commensurate with my kill rate. And if I kill 8 times the amount of monsters another person does, I should get 8 times the loot, period. How can you argue this?

So have I. But the funny thing is, changing the loot system of a game after 3 million purchases and two years is a bit more drastic than just another "little thing" like nerfing or buffing skill damage amounts.

I'd agree with your idea of what the 15k and Obsidian armors should be, insofar as they're not standard equipment and are something that should be obtained later rather than earlier. However, Anet does not seem to agree anymore, for as I mentioned before, Gaile uses the unavailability of these and other "high priced" items to the average player as justification for the changes to the loot system. In reality, it appears that the changes do just the opposite, by pushing these items further out of reach of the average player. This is my complaint, that there is a sense of growing hypocrisy in the information coming from Anet.

From my point of view, Anet is the one who is now saying that these items should be more widely available. Farmers have not "given the appearance that farming is mandatory," rather Anet has made it such by placing these high cost fixed price items in the game and not providing alternative means of raising such funds.

Granted there are those who expect the game to work differently than it was designed. However, the bigger difference I've been seeing, in this and other issues, is the difference between what Anet originally told us about how the game should work and what they are telling us now.

You won't have as much gold, that's right. But gold will be worth more because of deflation.

Supply and demand does. If an item is priced higher than a fair number of people are willing to pay, it will drop in price.

Why would the gold deflation outstrip the cost drop? The cost is dropping only because of gold deflation. What is the compensating factor that will push it up to cost more? If anything I'd suggest it will drop further with so many HM farmers piling rares up.

The average player solo farms any significant amount? I guess alot of people in this thread believe that actually... I suppose only Anet has the statistics to know how absurd that thought is. The change would indeed be a waste if that were true, juggling the economy around to just bring a few % of sods up instead of pulling down a wealthier elite. I guess I only know for sure that players who regularly solo-farm for gold are an extremely small minority in my largeish PvE alliance, of course there are farming guilds out there, but not as many as people just playing through. This is an impasse if you disagree though, I'm not sure where we can get reliable statistics on the matter.

How about the number of people in this thread alone who have said they only farm a little at a time for skill money or when they want to acquire something more expensive than 1.5k/collectors?

And player run economies always have a lag time behind economy rebalances, and in that time the same dynamic of super rich vs. poor is re-established. You can't have a game in which people can put in varying amounts of time and effort and have everyone rewarded equally. Unless ANet plans to start redistributing gold out of rich players' Xunlai accounts...

Well I just took my Invinsi-monk out for a spin and I don't see where they have removed all the anti-solo farming processes. There are still spell-breaking/life draining mobs and others they put there specifically to thwart this solo build. If the nightmares are still in UW then I think we are being suckered. Will find out when we have favor.

BTW I completely agree with the person who is sick and tired of all the nerfs/changes. Trying to balance PVP while screwing PVE or visa versa. For example the Necro nerf... My god that character has been in the game since the beginning and they wait till now to nerf soul reaping??? Either Anet is very slow or something else changed to prompt it. Either way, if it was a PVP issue, then just add an environmental effect to the PVP areas. I've been playing this game since the closed beta and over all not very happy with the way they like to nerf stuff and waste our time. Yes I've bought all 3 Campaigns but have been quite frustrated during the process. So I don't think I'll be going on to GW 2. Even though the games rocks... Anet has wasted to much of my valuable game time and to many of my builds...The frustration is just not worth it.

These arguments might hold true if the Guild Wars economy were one composed solely of items whose values could freely fluctuate according to supply and demand. But the fact is that it's not. I hate sounding like a broken record, but people seem to keep ignoring the fact that the presence of items in game with fixed costs, be it armor at any level, salvage or ID kits, keys, bags, crafted weapons, or whatever, adds a whole new variable to the equation. These items have a set numerical exchange value for gold, and if the relative value of gold changes, so do they, and that greatly impacts the economy as a whole. You're predicting deflation, I'm predicting a period of rapid inflation, once again we're back to the two economists' views problem. Either way though is not good, because both inflation and deflation, if sustained for any extended period of time or if too rapid or in a large amount have a negative effect on an economy. The ideal situation for any economy is relative stability. Interestingly enough, stability also seems to be the ideal situation for the growth of an online game community.


(boldface added for emphasis)

As best as I can tell this is or will be the true net effect of the loot changes, to increase the wealth of those who already have it while devaluing the currency available to those who do not. Anet claims their goals to be the opposite, but we will have to wait and see to determine the true case.

Except the only important expensive items (ie the non-vanity ones) will not deflate at all. Skills are still 1000g each and XP scrolls are still 200g each. The difference the update has made is that instead of having to farm for 1-2 hrs a week (about 10% of my play time) to get the funds for them, you now have to farm 8-16hrs (about 90% of my play time) a week.

I am also a casual farmer that just farms for what I want. this is now impossible or at the very least stupidly time consuming. Anet is now saying I have to become a leet farmer to earn any money, that I can't make a few plat here and there for what I need.

they gave us heroes which we have to kit out, with weapons and runes for them to be up to the task. We don't get their share of the cash to do it, they get it and then we kit them out. This is now going to be very hard if you have only one character, but if you have several... Oh well there goes the revenue to anet for new character slots, no one will be able to equip their current characters and heroes so they won't be buying more.


'gold drops are exempt from loot scaling' OK but have they reduced the gold item drops in normal mode then? I used to get a reasonable amount of gold drops soloing kryta including ettin pauldrons even with farming code up. I'm getting none now, even after many attempts, so I don't see this gold item exemption from the scaling at all. I just see a drop in gold itme drop rates.

I did hard mode with heroes and hechies, got some great drops first run, then they stopped, eight runs later I get more in normal mode. Every run after that got worse and worse... hang on thought farming code had been removed. Apparantly not in hard mode.

This update is not helping everyone make more money. People in groups make the same, casual farmers make a lot less, leet farmers go on as before, bots make a bit less but charge more on ebay as gold is now in demand more.

I have never bought gold and never will, but can see a move of a lot of people saying what the heck and just buying gold as they can no longer get it any other way.

Anet say they don't want to force people to farm to make money, now if you want skills, runes and equipment for yourself and heroes, Anet are FORCING you to learn advanced farming as it's now the only way to make money

thanks...

So let me get this straight...

This is the goal. Make it easier for "normal" players to make money.

This is the action towards that goal:

So, by increasing the amount of gold and spiffy items in HARD MODE, you are making easier for "normal" or average or non-elite-mad-skillz players to make more money?

Just to be clear... By REDUCING the drops in NORMAL mode, and INCREASING the drops in HARD MODE, you are making it easier for NORMAL (non 1337 players) to make more money.


That's right folks, the chocolate rations have in fact been increased from 30 grams to 20 grams. The gods are indeed generous.

Botters don't wear 15k armor. Or if they do, they don't wear it around in cities for new members to see and envy.
I'm not going to argue this point with you any longer, since it's clear that neither of us is going to change our opinions. Suffice it to say, I don't believe that kills are the only useful metric for success, and neither does ArenaNet, or else they wouldn't have included missions or quests in the game.
Not at all, because titles are 100% optional. They are purely cosmetic, apart from a few fringe cases like Lightbringer. Hardcore players can grind them forever, but casual players can still be competitive without titles.
Among this forum, maybe. Among the majority of the GW population, it's doubtful. I haven't heard a single complaint in my alliance about the changes... most of them are too busy playing hard mode to care.

There are plenty of alternative means to earn money, but they might not be instantly available to new players. As I've mentioned in other threads, myself and three of my friends have each been able to afford 15k armor without farming. I've made about 60k in the last week or so just by taking my ranger through Factions, since I'm not buying him many skills.
In cases like this, I have to give ArenaNet the benefit of the doubt. They have access to all kinds of statistical data about the game that we don't. They most likely know exactly how much gold is flowing into the economy, through which characters it's coming, and what items are producing the most income. They know how much each player plays on average, the average amount of gold in each player's pocket, and what people are spending it on.

A developer with that kind of knowledge wouldn't make this kind of decision if they knew it would noticeably affect the majority of its player base. It's impossible to know for sure, but anecdotal evidence seems to show that many players are content with the modified loot system. I would guess that this forum has a much higher ratio of farmers to non-farmers than the game itself (as well as a higher ratio of people who read the update notes and even know about the change).

I may not be a PvE player (and I wonder why I even check this thread), but that is some of the soundest reasoning I have ever seen. Thank you for brightening my day; I grew tired of all the illogical arguments going on in every part of my world.

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement (remember everyone, countess' post is sarcasm), and I must say I have a guilty pleasure for seeing devs caught in things like that.

Countess, you made my day, thank you.

Now the only player able to attain the coolest items would be the player who spends more time questing (the only type of accepted game know) in the box says something similar about skill and time but that is not how the game was originally designed to be played, it is for PvP. Doesn't matter if you are good and have more skill or a good build idea, the player who has more time will have it, you cannot focus time to obtain gold if you haven't much time. Maybe there was an inequity.

I see all reasons about this but I don't see why the scale drop should solve it. Why scale drop is the solution instead of farming for getting all these items?. And only we lose farming like an amused way of game (unless for the other part), forcing the players to play the area with henchies and heroes because is easy than going alone and has the same reward.

If there were a poll, this would get my [edit] vote for most intelligent AND most hilarious post in this thread.

I'm sure someone will argue against reality being real, such as 8 = 1 and so on and so forth, but thanks for that post, good times.

Although I can quite see why some people would be pissed, Posts like "Greatest nerf ever!" have been on these forums ever since the sorrows furnace update. It seems that the low experienced players(they can now farm in groups) and high experienced players(they can farm hard mode) don't have anything to complain about, but the average solo farmer would see some income shortage.

Of course things aren't a disaster, I knew since prophecies that re-entering an area would decrease your chance of (good) loot. This feature has been removed. This actually means for the average solo farmer that they havent been f*cked that badly, since they can now farm all hour long and still get like 2 golds a farm trip.

My advise to all you people who are complaining their guts out:

Simply finish the chapters. Hard mode is farming paradise, and I'm sure you will like to farm in hard mode. As do I, obtaining plenty of golds per farm trip.

Um? You're welcome?

I'm actually known for verbose posts, but when Gaile says things like that, it just makes it so much easier. I appreciate A-Nets attempts to kill bots and Professional Farmers (those who sell GWgold for RL cash). In fact, I frequently submit screen caps of people advertising such sales in game. That's how I do my part to cut back on botting/Pro farming. But I don't think this is a step in the right direction. I honestly think that all this does is make gold even harder for novice players to acquire.

And gold isn't just important for "vanity" items. Skills cost gold. Just capping all elites for one profession costs 35,000g. And all the non-elites, that's almost 90,000g right there. And that's just for your primary profession. What about secondaries? The strength of GW is the versatility of the characters, but they aren't too versatile when they can only afford to buy 15 skills. Sure many of the prophecies ones you get with quests, but not in the other two chapters. Skills over time spent playing, hunh? Well, it looks like new players have to quintuple the amount of time the play so they can afford to purchase the skills. (BTW, anyone paying more than 1k for an ordinary skill tome should look to see what Michiko has to offer first. She's not that hard to get to, you know.)

There I go being verbose again. Anyhoo, the current change only serves to widen the gap between rich and poor in GW. Those who already have money will have a much easier time making money out of hardmode (buying TH and Lucky titles). Those who don't already haves tonnes of money will invest big bucks in a lock pick, with dreams of Rare Treasure... only to find a crappy major inspiration rune. Rich people can afford to wade through the crap for the gems. Poor people cannot. So poor, average players just got a harder time acquiring skills to play the game competatively*.

I can see it now...

1337 player:So you want to come play with us in the land of Great Treasures?
n00bzor player: Gee that sounds like fun.
1337: Well, the bad guys in this place do lots of X so you need skills Y and Z.
n00bzor: I don't have skills Y and Z yet.
1337:Well it's a must in this place. The monsters are so hard and crafty, it's pretty much the only way. Just go buy it at the trainer, we'll wait.
n00bzor: but I was only able to get this 9-17 forked sword and this fettid carapace on my last pass through normal mode. Combined with my 250g that I had to split with the henchies, that leaves me with... 126g. I can't by 2 skills for 126g!
1337:Well, go farm for another 3 days and get back to us. Later
1337: GLF Player with YZ build for HM.
1337: GLF Player with YZ build for HM.
1337: GLF Player with YZ build for HM.
n00bzor: Why did I even buy this stupid game? Hey look, that guy is offering 100plat for $8. Cool. (logs on to website and whips out credit card)


Seriously, this wasn't a good move. At worst/best all it does is drive the RL price of GWgold up. And maybe not even that.

*meaning:be included for having the desired skills for a situation.

Skills will continue to cost 1 platinum. Max armor will continue to cost 1.5k -15k plus materials regardless of the value of gold. These factors will keep the price of gold up. These are not effected by "deflation".


Keys and lock-picks are the best bet at getting "sellable" items. Keys and lock picks are at a fixed price of 600g-1,500g. If only 1 in 5 drops from chests are sellable (a lot of gold and purple items really aren't that easily marketed - low demand runes - no max weapons), then the lowest feasable price for a "sellable" item is the cost of 5 keys = 3k normal mode chests or 7.5k HM chests. So these factors will keep merchandise demanding a high cost in gold.

Fairly simple really. Skills, armor, keys/lockpicks at fixed high prices will maintain the value of gold. Decreasing the amount of gold will only increase the number of people who can't have things. It will do nothing to lower the prices of items for sale. In fact, I would guess that going in the opposite direction would do much better to decrease the amount of people selling GWgold for cash. I've looked at a couple og GWgold sites today, and their primary selling point is that GWgold actually has value, and that it is hard to come by. This allows professional farmers to sell gold for higher RL prices, making it even more lucrative for them to engage in the practice of bot farming.

Taken from one such site:
Within the world of guild wars, gold is the standard currency (although, players often use other sorts for trading). Unlike many other games within the same genre, it has actual value. This is due to the rarity of gold...

Gold can be used to purchase a wide variety of items from both vendors and players. Although the trading value from player to player is harder to calculate. Nevertheless, the value of gold can be seen by what can be bought from non player characters (NPCs):

*Skills and skill charms
*Dyes (player driven economy, supplied by an NPC)
*Craftings, as each item costs a certain quantity of gold to create
*Weapons (including shields)

It then goes into a salespitch for why they are the ones to by gold from.

They didn't include armor but they should have. Sure you can get armor from collectors, but since the number of "white drops" have been scaled back, it now takes even more time to put that together. So much for the poor guy's armor/equipment.

But now you do get rewards according to your kill rate.

I enjoy playing in a team. You enjoy playing solo. If we kill the same number of monsters, we will now get equivalent rewards (except for ectos, greens, etc, where you get more), since the other players/heroes/henchmen in my team take 7/8 the loot.

Don't think you are 8x better just because you can solo. The skills in GW were balanced for team play, not soloing. Therefore, some solo builds work much better than they should against certain types of enemies. It's fine if you want to exploit this imbalance for fun, just don't expect 8x rewards for it.

Whether or not this patch is right or wrong and whether the effect is good or not (I only come back occasionally for some laugh at crazy updates so I don't know for sure)...it still pisses off customers.

Whatever happened to "we support farming, just not professional farmer"?

Somehow this evolved into "we hate professional farmer, so we'll do whatever it takes as long as its still possible to farm decently", hence all those skill nerfs and aoe nerfs, that has all the "stop whining, you can still farm with other skills" posts associated with it.

And now its "solo farming is bad, along with bot"...

I dunno whether to call this "effective PR" or "being lied to"

I would dare say that this update is for the long time GW player. You know, the people who have been playing for two years... and still plan on playing? This is finally an update that provides the old timers with some fun. To all the rest, go farm a little, go trade a little, or chest run and surely you will have enough to buy some armor.