A discussion on 7 heroes

How sub-par the PUG players are, not the game.

And of course removing the hero cap will improve the game, so that's a good thing.

just imagine this...

the henchies we have now, but without the shit builds and as good, if not better AI as the HM monsters.

there would be no need for more heros. right?

Yeah I was there too and asked the same and didn't get an answer on that either. It seems a delicate issue with ursan and all. It's a contradiction and at this point I think that we will either get 7 heroes or Ursan will eventualy get nerfed.

Yes, there would be a need, because some of us like using our own specific builds, not whatever generic build the henchmen carry. Consider also that the henchmen cannot be flagged or tailored to the team build, they have some incredibly annoying battle quotes (particularly Devona and Talon Silverwing), and their AI is even worse than the heroes.

Which brings me to another thing. ArenaNet needs to stop fiddling with the heroes' AI; it's just irritating.

lol.

what I'm getting at is we might have a better chance in seeing henchies UPGRADED. more heros just ain't gonna happen. it will make an already easy game, silly easy. and trust me, I'm all for 7 heroes but I know, and all of you know as well, it's in nogo status. at least until the near-death status of GW.

Ursan already has. What 7 heroes will do is make the game fun, unlike Ursan.

Every area of the game except for areas that require more than one zone to get to (such other levels of multi-level dungeons, and zones not attached to towns like Mineral Springs) can support one player with 6 heroes. How? Team up with another player with 3 heroes, or use a secondary account, and have them leave. Bam. There ya go.

So someone is going to have to explain how having one extra hero is going to make the game that much easier. Before you say "Well, multi-level dungeons, there ya go!" I submit to you these facts - DoA, Slavers, FoW, UW, Urgoz, and the Deep are all 'single-level' (or each section in the case of DoA and Slavers is single-level) areas. One person, six heroes, all doable, and all considered "elite." So again, explain how that one extra hero is going to change everything.

EDIT: Simply put, the way the system is now, it favors those with secondary accounts and plenty of time to get one character on that account with decked-out heroes and many towns unlocked. It's unfair to just about everyone else. Just to throw this out there, I can personally do this anytime I want as my wife has all these areas unlocked and fully decked out heroes. Anytime she's not around, I still have 6 heroes anywhere I want.

...


The only way there could justifiably be 7 heroes in a party is if ANet decided to make a super hardmode. And in that case, you might be better off with real people.

Nods. If I'm playing as Ursan, sometimes I'll even play both accounts simultaneously. To be fair, I do that with ele, hammer war and MM as well, not just Ursan

Ask for Hell Mode for Ursan when you're at it. I have no prob with Ursan but couldn't resist

Seriously the imba point is rediculous by now as explained above and on the last pages by myself, arcanacabre and other loyal customers of this thread.

It's there solely to "encourage" you to group up with at least one other person, especially in the elite areas where henchies can't follow. Same reason heroes can't use PvE skills. (Which will be the next thing this crowd is demanding, surely.)

Actually this is an interesting thought. If this would be the case than the question is if that encouragement is worth the price. Pug people will say yeah sure while the others will just keep on playing h/h or with guildies and friends and avoid pugging as much as they can.

PvE only skills is another matter though, I haven't really thought about it yet.

You say that as if heroes give some form of advantage...

Which as has been discussed many many times in this thread just isnt the case. A good teams of players is more powerful than a team of 7 heroes so balance isnt a concern.


And why should people be encouraged to pug?
I purchased the game because it said I could play with AI, it was sold as a game you could choose how you played. Not be punished for picking the "incorrect" option.

No matter what I wont pug, if the option for AI wasnt there I just wouldnt play.
So it doesnt encourage me to pug, it just makes the game less appealing.

Why does the easy argument always seem to be the most important?
I pretty much NM only. The game is already easy.
What heroes bring is variety in builds. It's kinda a waste to run an a bunch of supportive characters that provide other chars with adrenaline if the hench have no adrenaline skills. But that also means MY builds need to be shit because of it (or at least not as good as they could be!)!
That's pretty much the only reason why a 7 hero party is needed.

And yeah I could party up with other people. Theoretically. Now find me another dude at Copperhammer that wants to play heavy physical. At any given time of the day.
We are just too spread on 4 games for that to be a realistic option.

For the record EVERYONE DOESN'T HAVE URSANS or EOTN and also EVERYONE DOESN'T HAVE NIGHTFALL, so, there's only a small portion of the community wanting to get 7 heroes as opposed to the others that just have Factions or Prophecies or the combination of the two. So, as Anet has stated there's not going to be 7 Heroes. Now they never said they weren't going to make Razah easier to get or that everyone wasn't going to get extra storage that Factions brought, but, they HAVE SAID there's NOT going to BE 7 HEROES. <grin> Changes came from things they never said one way or the other about, but, 7 heroes has been officially stated "NOT GOING TO HAPPEN" and you can whine and cry and QQ about it all you want to till you're blue in the face, but, it ain't gonna happen as their direction now is GW2 and even in GW2 they are eliminating the Heroes and Henchies for a "companion" so, if you think only 3 heroes is bad now, and 4 henchies just wait till you get GW2 and don't have any heroes or henchies. <grin>

That's their problem.
It's not like A.net is trying to sell a product or something ....

So, what a.net has to say about it? Their main arguments - too easy game and end of PuGs - are gone, both because of Ursan. Game is already too easy with it, and heroes can't use it - so people will still pug for ursanshit.

Its a valid argument, but rendered void by stuff like :

1. not being able to cap and then use skills from expansions you do not own.

2. not having access to extra storage tab if you dont own the corresponding expansion.

3. not being able to acquire items from expansions you do not own other than through trading.

People are already disadvantaged when not owning an expansion, whats more 7Heroes would not impact those people because of all thats been said before.

I heard selling more copies of a game was good.

So petition for heroes in Prophecies and Factions.

/signed.

But people that actually want and use heroes (90% of the player community?) Will have already bought NF + Eotn. Were not to blame if you or a minority of players decide not to buy them.

I paid for all the campaigns, I would like to use 7 hero parties for FUN. And I dont care if they cant use PVE skills, I have plenty of skills to choose from to customise my bars anyway.

If I am not mistaken one of their main arguments was that problem of incorporating 7 hero bars into the interface.
I really don't remember the game being too easy as one of the arguments against it. (Correct me if I am wrong though!)

Well the solution to any interface problem is simply...dont.

Most people in this thread have already said they would be more than happy to only have the 3 current heroes in the interface with the extra 4 just being able to have their builds changed.

However it would obviousely be nice to have a proper interface for them, the solution there would be to not be silly and open all 7 bars at once!


And apparantly when asked why there wasnt 7 heroes Gaile said it would be to powerful. Obviousely when you think about it thats silly because it would still not be able to touch a team of players, so it seems more like a way to try and brush it off and hope people dont keep asking.

Ohh please someone tell me we messed up and she didn't say this?
Because this pretty much implies that the only challenge in PvE happens as a result of bad design. (Which, let's be honest, isn't that far off the truth, BUT when you have the people that are trying to sell this game uttering this public secret aloud ... well then we have a real problem on our hands ...)

Anets official answer was "it does not fit in with our game vision" or was it "it does not fit in with the game designers vision".

you get the gist though. read what you like from that, i've given up expecting ANY coherent reasoning from them.

The easiest awnser: I prefer GW as a Multiplayer game, Not as a 1 player and 7 NPC game.

This would bring parties down even more.

Well it is advertised as a game you can play solo with AI.

Also a lot of people who purchased it for that reason will obviousely only be using AI.

As it is those who enjoy pugging over AI will still form pugs if thats how they prefer to play. So the drop in players would be very small. And those that do change would obviousely prefer to play with AI anyways so its not as if they are being forced from pugs they are chosing not to use them.

And what was their vision? And why 7 heroes do not fit in that vision? They said nothing. They could've as well said "because".

No it wouldnt because you still have your ursanway. People that enjoy pugging are still going to carry on pugging, whereas players that already play solo will be able to enjoy the game even more.

Exactly. Those of us that will refuse to pug for genral stuff already do so. Adding more heroes will not decrease the number of puggers in a large way, since those still pugging are doing so because they prefer to, not because they have to. It would make the game more fun for those who don't pug.

Obviously, for some things, pugging will always be more popular ie Ursanway DoA, Slaver's Exile, Urgoz etc.

Well unfortunately, MANY people disagree with you. Most prefer H/H nowadays, for obvious reasons. Adding the ability to use seven heros is not gonna "take away" from PuGs. As I said...heros didn't kill PuGs...PuGs killed PuGs. Those few that still like to random group, still will. People who play by themselves...will play by themselves...period. Whether there are three heros, or seven, or none....it would not change the state of PuGs in any way. Adding seven heros would just make it more fun for those who don't PuG. Those that DO like to PuG, still will. For example, for one weekend, remove the ability to use ANY heros at all. Do you think that would make people start grouping again? Absolutely not...we'd just use henchies or solo farm. Take away heros AND hench, and those that like to play alone either wouldn't play at all...or again, would solo farm.

The number of heros we can use would not affect PuGs. Period. But people can't seem to comprehend this. It would not affect your precious 5 ursan/3 monk ownage groups in any way, since heros can't use those retarted skills anyway (thank god...please keep it that way), and cannot replace them.

Those of you still saying that it would make things imbalanced or too easy...just stop. All I have to say is "Ursan", and your argument crumbles to nothing. Or how about "consumable set"? Balance...challenge? It doesn't exist in PvE anymore. Seven heros would not change anything, besides making it more fun and interesting for those that like to use heros, as well as giving them more options..

Screen clutter? Interface problems? Not an issue. The last 4 would function as henchies. First three can be microd. No problem at all.

And those that say about not having heros...go to Target and buy a copy of GW:EN for $10. There ya go.

i'll take a h/h 7 man team build over pug ursans anyday

Well, when I play an MMO game, I like to play it with players...

Guild Wars isn't an MMO, it's a CORPG.

Sometimes playing with live people is just not an option.

If I wish to fill a Hero Hand Book for GWEN what are the chances of me finding 7 people that also have the time and means to complete an entire book in one run?

My options then are to find a new team for each and every quest, or take 3Heros+4Hench and solo it. This is just one example of when I would really love to have access to 7 heros.

They gave UB to unskilled players so they can get further in the game, why not give solo players 7 hereos so they can join in the fun too?

[QUOTE=Loviatar]Paste and copy, lord almighty i bet you took all night to think that one up

Regardless of what it is, I have played WoW and Lotro and both of them are 100% solo friendly. So you dont have heroes or henchmen, but you CAN play entirely on your own without any Disadvantage.

In GW however, solo players are somewhat crippled as 90% of the game requires a full party of 8 (Hello, not ONE other MMO requires this), and 50% of the solo option (Henchmen) is retarded. Although they are better and more skillful then 99% of puggers, all that pug does nowadays is Ursan way.

Then again I wonder if people that say 'This is an MMO, I play with other people only' have actually played any other MMO's. I highly doubt it when they keep screaming that MMO's are meant to be for group play. Maple Story too, completely Solo, partying is just an option which isnt actually required to play and enjoy the game.

7 heros would be nice, we have so many to choose from as it is, why give us so many if we can only use 3 at a time. just one of the many things Anet added to the game thinking they were doing something good only to screw it up in the end. if the excuse is having 7 hero parties will keep people from grouping up is their best reason for no allowing 7 heros they may as well shut down the servers now. they created the problem by giving us heros now either take them out or give us the option to build parties as we see fit. i dont need 7 heros in my party, in most cases ive done just fine with 3 heros+henchman but theres many, many times a 4th hero would make a world of difference in alot of areas. those that group up with real people will continue to do so and have done so since heros came out with nightfall, heros just gave us the ability to be more creative with builds and parties when guild or alliance mates arent availible or around.

well despite how people spin it, Guild Wars IS a MMO. However it's a TEAM based MMORPG. Which in my experience is very unique for MMO's and indeed RPG's in general, most other games grouping with other players is optional for the most part and solo adventuring characters suffer very little disadvantages.

The fact that you can't effectively solo guild wars (with the exception of a few specialized builds) is the reason we have henches and heroes in the first place. The introduction of heroes didn't lead to a less friendly community or anything.

Imo the only thing that adding the seven heroes option would do is render henchmen entirely redundant (except for proph & factions only owners).

As for the reasoning behind keeping henchmen necessary or viable that's somewhat debatable.

Well the main and most obvious reason its not an MMO is because its not massively multiplayer. Due to instancing and the limited partysize in an instance its not classed as one.

I do agree however thats its a team based game with a lot more team tactics than your average ORPG. And as advertised the team doesnt need to be human, as such it would be great to be able to play with the higher level of team tactics you can use in a team of players.

Because with only 4 controllable builds that limits you in so many ways. And thats before you take into account the limits from them being AI in the first place.