A discussion on 7 heroes

I think he meant his three PvE skills.

In which case i would agree with him as one pve skill is well worth 1.3 hero with good bar.

Think about it this also way:

those 4 heroes have runes and equipment. up to 120 extra health, having extra energy, runes, HSR/HCT mods and armor mods. Physical bars would have ias, etc etc. Basically, what they would get is equal to conset being active on them.

What we gain here is at power levels of one conset for those 4 extra heroes - one half of permanent conset for whole party. Its well worth of sacrifice of one players pve skills.

However, there is one very chief factor: This is under the fact that the heroes are completely geared, bars completely built, and generally toned to near perfection.

As I said earlier, heroes aren't an automatic win button. You have to know your stuff, know *their* stuff, other peoples stuff, etc. And that's why they're not gonna "sucking in" puggers as much as people here think: you have to be good to use heroes effectively. The same doesn't need to be said of PvE skills.

Depends. Even average players might be "smart enough" to simply run Sab+Rac(+1 Hybrid monk)-way.

But again, whoamikidding. They would run koss as obsitank, dunkoro as bonder, BiP olias, HB talkhora and ogden and 2x SF eles. Sup runes/Radiant insignia included. Fail rightaway or progress miserably slow and go back to pugs.

Damned if you do damned if you don't, eh? As much as we shun pugs, it's their silliness that's keeping them puggin' ;P

They should include it only too close this silly thread.

Lightbringer rank is also displayed for and affects heroes. Obviously while having a rank 8 I would like to use heroes in RoT than pug with people with much lower ranks. In this case having possibility of 7 heroes will make this RoT piece of cake even on HM. Same with GWEN titles.

I never display any titles that have a benefit on the game. Not in GWEN, nor in RoT.
I play with heroes and hench. And those places are a piece of cake.
This simply can not be a valid reason against it.

How would it "break the game for others"?
This is something I really do not see.

If you use 7 heroes, what's the point of being in a Guild? Being part of a guild is doing stuff together instead being a big selfish player that only does stuff with 7 heroes!

There's tons of people that H/H everything. I wonder why they're in a guild. Surely they must be anti-social and have no need for a guild!

Exacty, it's always those who complain about stuff like this.

I think the people who complain about 7 heroes are more likely to have more social issues than the ones that are for it. The people against it don't seem to realize all the social problems that take place in the game.

Some of the people that are against it are worried that they won't have anyone to play with anymore. Finding a good reliable guild to get things done with isn't always easy to do. Finding a decent pug is next to impossible. Many players wanna take advantage of GW's skill synergy and create their own team builds with 7 heroes.

There's tons of players out there that want 7 heroes and are more than willing to share their team builds with other players. They're not as selfish or anti-social as you might think. They just wanna get more into the game without having their gameplay disrupted by others.

Just because you do not do it, does not render the validity of the reasoning. Most of the people do display them and profit from the effects. With empty skill bar all areas can be a piece of cake if the team is good. What does that prove? Nothing. It can be done with just 3 heroes and no henchmen and what does that prove? Nothing again.

The problem is that by having possibility of 7 heroes and knowing the effects of displaying titles people with high ranks will have additional incentive to chose heroes over real players. Now you have 3 heroes + you who benefit and 4 henchmen who do not. Then there is at least an incentive to replace those and team up with someone for better effect. Of course it is possible to handle many areas with henchmen but worse players may encounter difficulties which may force them to try to team up. With 7 heroes who benefit then there will be absolutely no need to team up for most of the areas. I think then even more people will be playing solo than now.

What other players do is none of your business if they don't want it to be. Sorry but it's the truth.

Responses like these do remind me of kids. Even to this day, I still see it sometimes - young kids crying to their parents because someone didn't wanna play with them. It really isn't much different in this case.

I like PUGs.

They're fun.

But rarely do groups form anymore.

Guild Wars is supposed to be an MMO.

GW's PvE has one massive flaw - you always know what you're going up against.

We all know that PvP is a hundred times harder than PvE, but why is it that there's alot more variety in PvP pug's? It's because the opposing team will always be random.

If PvE mobs were random, what would happen? You couldn't Tank 'n' Spank anymore because you wouldn't know if the other team is gonna bring something to counter your setup. The result: hey let's bring a Warrior, the other team might have some caster hate. Let's use a fire Ele, they might bunch up often. Let's use a Mesmer, what if they have a monk that needs to be shutdown? Let's bring a Ranger, interrupts could be useful. What's this? It's a balanced group being formed. You don't know what you're going up against so you bring a variety of classes that way you're prepared to go up against anything.

That would be the death to the Holy Trinity - the one thing that's ruined PUG's in GW since the very start.

If Anet knows this and plans to fix it, GW2 should be a huge step foward and a big success. I know for a fact we won't ever see it in GW1 because it'd require a massive rework of PvE.

Yeah, but that's not what's being discussed here. What's being discussed here is allowing people who for the most part doesn't group with humans to use heroes instead of henches, and to bring full teams to elite areas.

True. 8 humans is VASTLY, ENORMOUSLY superior to 1 human + 7 heroes.

True, we don't know if this would lower human interactivity at all. Still that is the reason ANet wont give us 7 heroes: research has shown that the human interactivity is what keeps players playing. This is also why GW2 will be designed from the ground up to encourage human grouping and discourage soloing.

True. Yet, we are the customers.

Don't know what area that might be, though. I have vanquished all areas and can do all dungeons in hardmode today with 3 heroes and 4 henches, even most of UW with just three heroes. Give me 7 heroes and I'm pretty sure I could do any area.
Yeah, because they think encouraging grouping and discouraging soloing leads to more loyal customers, who keep playing for longer. I only know it means I wont buy GW2.

So? If ANet don't want people to use heroes or hench in those areas, then they could do like (it used to be) in FoW and UW, that heroes and hench were banned from entering.

As for me I frankly don't give a damn about the "elite content", ANet can keep it. I'd just like to be able to use decent team builds in the game instead of having to make do with the weak skillsets of henches.

Dude I am much to old to be compared to kid and being offended. Keep those off topic remarks for yourself ok?

This is MMORG and people want to introduce amendment which will be a great incentive for more people to play solo. I think it is against the purpose of this game and will destroy its multi player aspects even more.

I never said I need titles to finish any areas. I said many people need them. I never wrote I need to team up for anything in RoT or GWEN. Others do. For two years I was a leader of guild with more than 30 newbies in it and the ones who did not team up left. Regardless how bad PUGs are they are keeping several people still in the game. I think that further promotion of anti-social behavior will not do this game any good.

I think you need to get to grips with the concept that a lot of people, e.g. me, are already playing GW as if it was an online single-player game.
We don't PUG now, wont PUG tomorrow, regardless of whether we can bring 7 heroes or not.

Conversely people who can't get by with consumables and heroes & hench today are unlikely to be able to get by with consumables and heroes tomorrow, so in other words those who PUG today would also PUG tomorrow.

Actually this is an interesting point. Games like WoW which have subscriptions want to keep players playing as much as possible, which is why they focus on grind and social interaction (as the common wisdom is that is what keeps players playing). However, GW is not subscription based, so what do they care if I keep playing or not?
Wouldn't GW in fact be better served by a model which let players complete the game (after getting their moneys worth) and move on?

There's a big difference between anti-social behavior and people that just wanna play the game their own way without having to rely on others.

Anti-social behavior in GW: Guidless, never pug's, tries to avoid all conversation, has little to no friends, and isn't even willing to group up with what little friends they might have.

Now, compare to the people that want 7 heroes to dive deeper into skill synergy and the build-creation part of the game. They're often in a guild. They're interested in what others are doing with builds. They're willing to share their findings. They might want to test a specific setup with another person. It can be a fun learning experience for them.

And of course, sometimes people are just getting off of work and already had enough time spent dealing with others. Yes I'm describing an average person. Were there any of those in your guild? If you haven't had any experience with them, you wouldn't understand another big reason people want to be left alone with 7 heroes....

....And no, it's not anti-social behavior. If you think it is, your social experiences with others in and out the game might be lacking.

I agree with what you wrote and understand your point but in my opinion it is much too early for such a change. This can be a perfect improvement when there will not many new ones coming to the game, then it would just add some more possibilities for the ones already in the game without affecting most of the newbies. Now however it is a different story. It will improve the situation of people playing solo but may in negative way influence the ones less capable and mostly the ones new to the game who in my opinion will just get bored soon and just leave the game. It is hard to say why still so many people join. Anyway some of them join for a team play and those can be affected. Those anti-social will play solo anyway and it will not change much if have 7 or 3 heroes since most of the game is fairly easy.

Guilds created by a new players and for new players will minimize its negative effects a bit but in my opinion it is not enough to agree on 7 heroes at this moment.

I wonder how many oldtimers thinks that implementing 7 heroes may actually keep people (themselves) in GW longer. it might be a perfect topic but for a different thread. I see that several of them are rather neutral about the issue. If the numbers are high I would then rather keep the people already in the game than focus on the possible new ones.

I see your point but how about alliance members that can do stuff with you (if your in an alliance)?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...play.php?f=268



Imo heros were a bad idea to begin with. Maybe its just me but before heros were added it was not that hard to find a pug group that didnt suck, now all the better players use heros etc so they dont have to play with the "lesser" players and if your going to do a HM mission/Vq you really have to rely on guilds and allys. Also I think a reason it was not hard finding a good pug back then was cause people were jugging you more, so you had more of a reason to get better at the game. Now with heros if some1 has a bad build "like a warrior with mending and orison of healing" they just get kicked from the group and then they add their heros and keep using bad builds and dont learn any new builds, tactics etc that you learn when playing with a group of real people.

Also its a online game. Its like if you were to say "I want to play Grand Theft Auto but i dont want to steal cars"

This is more complex than that.

People got tired of hopeless people. If you meet mending warrior and suggest him improvement you get any of these reactions:

* Silence - Does he just hope you get tired and stop bothering him? No idea.
* STFU (noob) - Whatever he uses he uses because it is teh best thing ever.
* QQ - Mommy, bad man violates my rights to play bad builds that make no sense! That nazi ...
* Build ninja - You get pinged build without mending. Then you enter mission and what do you see wammo casting? Right.

* Cool, thanks for tip.

Guess which is least likely to happen. (It is because good player will listen and by time he groups with you he runs something passable, while bad player will remain dense.)

Few encounter like this is enough to discourage puging both for wannabee mentor and for would-be student. People don't react well even to constructive criticism on internet on general and result is not pleasant for anyone.

Which leaves you with option of guild or H/H.

just so theres no mix ups, i was not pointing any of that at you it was for the rest of the thread i just quoted you to give you the link.

Also i thing my analogy owns face, why play a online game if your not going to play with other players? for the chat? just DL a IM or xfire if thats what u want.

As for getting you guild jump started it can be hard yes, even in a guild like TAM it can be hard to get groups going cause not every 1 is going to want to always do DoA, Fow, Vq etc at the same time.

A lot of times it looks something like this
Loki: hey guys lets do fow
LuLu: YEA LETS DO FOW
Me: yay fow
Evyl: Kay meet at GH noobs
Trubs: GUMBALLs!
Mike: Let me get a new hammer 1st
Quink: lets do DoA we have not done that forever we did fow last night
LuLu: YEA LETS DO DOA
Sigh: wow im owning this team in RA ATM
Mike: do you need a Hammer war for DoA?
Trubs: GUMBALLS!
Tyla: wow theres a lot of noobs on guru in campfire right now
Scarn: hey evyl
Scarn: evyl
Scarn: evyl
Scarn: evyl
Evyl: WHAT!
Scarn: hi
Evyl: .....
LuLu: hey guys im going to go HA l8rz
Loki: so we're not doing fow?
Me: f*** if i know
Trubs: GUMBALLS
Mike: we have not done Bogroots forever why dont we just do that? Ill get to smash things with a hammer
All of the guild: BOGROOTS!
Snow bunny: guys im ghey
All of the guild: GTFO
Trubs: GUMBALLS

Know i went a little over board with that but if you know the guild you will be rolling right now. Any way Tara I think if you want your guild to grow find a HM dun your guild can do, that has good drops "for TAM its bogroots " and just do it a lot then try new areas etc. as long as your doing stuff people will stay in the guild and it will get bigger sooner or later and you will not even have to be on and they will be doing DoA HM w/o heros and they will have a line for the next run

Im sure after your guild gets people doing stuff you will say "wow why did i ever use heros? its so much better playing with real people"


but how many times do you think hes going to get kicked from group before he/she gets better and listens? Its not really hurting the group cause they just kick him and find a new pug, dont forget there was a lot of people all over the place before heros, and people didnt mind pugging as much. now the only people that look for groups of real players are the noobs that cant solo the mission with heros and they need help, so it has filtered the noobs from the good players and they dont learn as much, imo any way

sry for BIG post >.<

People do not play with heroes and hench because h/h would be godly.
People play with heroes and hench because other people are bad. Or not available.
That's the issue here.

Sure there might be some people moving into playing with all h/h if you offer it - but considering the game design (instances, the lack of a world party search, the NEED to have certain roles in a party, the game slowly coming to it's end, ...) - there is less and less arguments that speak against it.
People that like to play with people will need to realize sooner or later that the days of being able to find a party of people anywhere in the game are over.

Syncing at Aspy.
Ohh and the ability to chat with multiple people without all needing to be in the same area.
That's the whole purpose of our guild.

Yea but guess when it started getting harder to find good pugs? when heros came along, half the players started to use "and were forced in NF missions sometimes" the heros, and now most people do not cause they are better but cause its hard finding other players.

The Days of playing with other players is far from over theres always a group doing something in TAM and its ally, if any thing theres just a lack of people wanting to play w/ other players cause its hard to find a group of 8 neros with discord.


If your only in a guild for chat why not just DL Xfire or some other IM app and get a good guild that plays together?

How is playing with heroes selfish? I'm not taking anything away from the PUGs - PUGs, who, by the way, are themselves to blame for their own class discrimination, rampant stupidity, immature behavior, and refusal to improve gameplay skill.

I could join a team. MY OWN without stupid Henchmen. Wait WAIT... nope not anymore. EXCUSE ME PLAYING THROUGH...

Some would say MMORPG. I say PRESEARING.

Some say Stupid Idea. I say I'm A STUPID Player and no one wants to die 50 times killing one group.

Some say Too easy. I say THEN HELP ME.
They say NOOB. I say F*&%'n M*&^&$# F(*&^R 934ed983999389w98w389.

They say "REPORT". I say GOOD RIDDANCE.
They Say Your the one REPORTED. I say Crap

I was referring to non-guild/friend teams.
Since I really don't see how a full hero team would lessen the initiative to play with a bunch of people that are fun and that most of the time surpass the AI - if nothing else - they at least know how to throw that PS BEFORE you get hit for that 289738107972 damage.


Ohh and I am not complaining about the activity of our guild. I love those guys. I just don't want to spend every moment playing with them.

I say we go to 0 heroes. The game was far better before they existed.

Do you realize that the H/H players would simply quit? You wouldn't get more PUG players, you'd simply lessen the server load a small bit, and likely speed the game further to its grave.

Some of them yes. But they do not bring any new players to the game do they? To the contrary I would say. With 500.000 such solo players game would be dead. With 50.000 playing together it would be still alive. Why make it solo online game? I think it is a bit against GW purpose. As I stated before additional heroes can be a good addition when there will be not many people left playing and not many new coming.

umm i cant find where he said that i smell a edited post hmm let me try
see what i did there?


well if you were able to use 7heros i dont think you'd every see any other players again other then your guild making it even harder for new players/noobs to get better.


agreed

so your saying that people will quit the game cause they will have to play with other players in a online game? its not like we see them now so even if they did leave you'd never be able to tell. I bet if they left things like ecto may go up

I can care less if heroes get removed or added. I personally think that it would be better with 7 heroes, because people will use them if they want and if need be they would simply PuG, or get an alliance or guild group. I also agree that heroes should be banned from elite areas altogether, or atleast limit it to 1-2 the same way they did it to HA, except PvP other than HB shouldn't get heroes altogether.

If they get removed, I'll just use henchmen, get guildies / alliance-ees(?) or continue AB'ing. The only thing it affects is my title progression.

All in all I see this as an online game where playing with other players is optional but extremely beneficial depending on what you take. Heroes can't use PvE skills and have an extremely retarded AI, and that balances it out with humans. Humans have the ability to use 24 total PvE skills which can be copied 8 times, they can be coordinated even easier and they can weaponswap for maximum efficiency. An online game doesn't imply that you have to play with people at all.

Oh and JD, I don't say the word "noob" unless I'm pissing about.

While I want to be able to use 7 heroes, I also want the option of playing with other players when and if I feel like it, that's why. Since GW is NOT an MMORPG (and has never claimed to be one), your point here is not relevant.

As for "go play a single-player game or something", point me to one that (1) is as well made and as fun as GW, (2) has comparable features, (3) has an AI party/hero system, (4) has a level cap, (5) has the same (or a similar) skill and gear setup, (6) is set in a world as beautifully rendered and creative as Ascalon, Cantha, Elona, etc., and (6) follows as rich a storyline, and I'll seriously consider it.

mass effect

12345

If the ability to take 7 heroes was added then people will just make another thread asking for 11 heroes in urgoz/deep.

TBH - that's a risk I am willing to take.
These guys can always come to Guru and I'll yell at them here.



I think most people here are in favor of FULL hero parties - the number 7 was chosen only because 8-man parties pretty much represent THE PvE experience (meaning that he game really starts once you have 8 people in your team).
Well at least I am in favor of full-hero parties.

In that case, if this is added WTB bigger monitor.

7 heroes and offline mode plz.....no but seriously 7 heroes would be pretty sick.