A discussion on 7 heroes

Having 7 heroes will make it so that everyone will be able to blaze through everything which then leads to them getting bored faster. And there will be no economy left lol not like there is any in this game.

What do heroes have to do with ruining the economy?

And if having 7 heroes drastically speeds up game completion it's the player's fault he's bored for rushing.

No, it wasn't. Most of it was pure hell before heroes, because people and henchmen both sucked.

That's an orange, Tmr asked for apples.

I'm gonna have to agree with him, though. From the start, GW's been stated as having the *option* to play with other players. While it doesn't mean that the soloing has to be as viable if not moreso, it definitely rules out the belief that you're supposed to play with others.

wtf JD. what about Swirly?

on topic. the only reason people ever want 7 heroes is because they can't find people to do what they want to do. no one, including me, wants to PUG. use forums like this to meet people and get done what you want to do.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...play.php?f=269
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...play.php?f=266
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...play.php?f=268

this forum alone has plenty of resources to meet people. it's supposed to be a social game and 7 heroes makes it more antisocial than it already is.

I am sorry but you are sadly mistaken!

I want 7 heroes because i dont want chicken shit henchmen with awesome outdated and rubbish builds to do my stuff with.

I want 7 heroes because it allows me to make better and more fun builds.

I want 7 heroes because hench suck (didnt i say that already?)

Well, to be to the point, pugging in the game is dead, well sort of and there is no use for me to go in a pug, knowing it WILL suck and we lose the mission or ive hit a strain of luck and we win, but ehhh cant remember the last time that happened, and im not counting ursan pugs because that was different.

Fact is, if i with my heroes screw up on a mission i can blame it on AI error and possibly some build that just dont work where i am at, i dont have to read all the terror from players when a party fails to achieve something, or im just having bad luck, which sometimes just happens.

I have no problem with pugs, i have a problem with the ammount of rude and antisocial people that i see in the game and that puts me of it, because most of the time its pretty rubbish, which is a shame.

idk ive had a lot of good pugs, the number of good pugs did go down a lot when heros came out and move when ursan came out and even more when they nerfed it "good thing imo" im sure after a 2 or 3 months pugs may regain so of the little skill they had, Im sure every 1 will agree that back before NF came out some pugs were not that bad.

I still think heros need to be taken out just cause it will make the game harder if nothing else, and force you to play with other players etc. I think it will even help smaller guilds like taras, cause there will be more of a reason to be in a guild that players. That will be good for the game, adding 7heros so you can play alone will not.

"They Said No!"

As we all know, No means No, as the vast majority knows, no means work

They have to iron out other things before they could implement & heroes, things like, why minions (non ranged) stand at walls trying to attack enemies 1 floor above, when they have no ranged attack, they just stand at the wall and get pelted to death, i know they are minions but balloons have more intelligence, rant over

Three words: Thunder Head Keep. Not a single one of the pugs I entered - out of 9 - were able to complete it. I finally beat it when I went with *henchmen* and camped the king.

Heroes didn't turn me away from PUGS, PUGS did.

That's awful. It will make the game harder and more challenging not because the game itself is difficult, but the players - and that's not what I'd call a "fun" challenge.

Also, removing them won't force me to play with "others", it will force me to play with henchmen. There are many out there who don't go solo just because they're better than your average PUG. The reasons are numerous, and many are generally backed by poor experiences. I don't think people would want to go back to those treacherous times.

We can already play alone. There are only about five areas I can't successfully complete too well in HM and that's only because you can't bring henchmen into them - and even then you only need one or two other people to complete them so they can bring *their* heroes. But aside from that, 7 heroes isn't a "need", it's a want. We don't "need" them because we're having trouble with the game (if that's the case l2p), we want them because it would provide a more in-depth and enjoyable team-building experience.

You must have played with bad players then. I always found PvE to be easy even in bad pugs. The game has always been henchable.

Not to mention the original idea of the game was to play with guildies (ie Guild Wars), not solo.

when? when i pugged it on my monk back before heros i did it 1st time.


so? I have a lack of caring about if you have to play with henchmen cause you dont want to play with other players.


nonono your misunderstanding me, i want ALL heros gone so you cant play alone. Adding 7 heros WILL kill the game, guilds will not be needed, theres no reason to pug or play with other players etc etc. Sure the people that like to play with other players still can but it will not be long till they move on to other games and there will not be enough new players coming in to guild wars to make up for it, and they will most likely use heros cause its all they will know.

Good for you - last time I tried to PUG *anything* it failed miserably. The last time I played with something other than AI or friends I was stuck on Unwaking Waters for about two hours. Teams would bring *all* melee, rush past all the afflicted thinking they could somehow trigger Kuunavang, Stand where every afflicted on the map would be aggroed, run towards the next group of afflicted when dying instead of away to regroup, all nice sorts of things. I finally just waited until late at night and got a full hench team and got masters - first try and no deaths.

I can count the number of good PUG experiences I've had on my hands and have a couple of fingers left over. Granted those times were highly enjoyable. Usually it's no big deal as I only PUG when I'm not that interested in the outcome of the mission (helping others or looking to socialize) so the above actions are amusing instead of irritating.

Nice, and one may wonder why Anet doesn't "listen" to you.

If you want to see a mass exodus of GW players get rid of the AI - that would kill it faster than anything else. No one is forced to log into the game and play and the vast majority of current players like it because they can choose their level of interaction with other people. There are also a LARGE number of couples who play the game and don't want to do it as a couple. Get rid of that ability and they will not just go "Oh well, now I have to group with others" - they just will not play (especially given that WoW is fairly solo-small group friendly). The outposts will not be filled with teeming individuals looking for a group.

But then, as much as I would personally like to see 7 heroes I don't think that is such a good idea either. There are places where having two humans is desirable enough that you see it regularly. Two is usually fairly easy to do and you can usually vett people enough that you don't get the bad experiences you do with eight. Two is fairly easy to co-ordinate over team chat, 8 isn't. I still will not group, but then I can still do any area that will let me.

I, however, do strongly believe that all areas ought to have henchman and allowed to enter with them - while I can (and have) cleared TOPK with them no one is going to use them for efficiencies sake. If one is good enough with the AI to clear the DoA then why not let them? It's not like it will be a remotely fast way of doing it.

IMO Anet has just about the right balance, needing two people promotes a certain level of grouping yet gives us AI players most of the builds we need. It is easy enough to get two people almost anywhere in the game and it also makes it such that some can "share" heroes if it is really that important that they have that many. When they player base falls off more (and that is inevitable in *any* game) I expect them to relent and give us them, but that time isn't now.

Although the information is now old it appears as if Anet is going a different route in GW2 - instead of AI scale the instances so someone can solo it. I don't see how that is going to "fix" anything in the slightest, but oh well. The people wanting to force groups will not be happy unless you are forced, the people wanting to play by their selves will not be happy until they can - there is no way to make both side truly happy. The only thing I note is that one can not force people to group as they just leave for another game and I'm willing to bet that Anet sees that too

Ah well, after giving my 2 cents and keeping this thread alive I will have to say I was amused to see it back again.

it was just 1 bad pug imo does not mean that every pug is that bad, Before heros I had a lot of good pugs "even for unwaking waters" but now that heros are in the game the only people not using them are the noobs cause they dont know what they are doing and need help, if every1 pugged there would be more players that knew what they were doing and pugging would not be as bad





People will not leave the game cause they have to play a online game with other players, people will leave a online game if they cant find other players to play with cause every1 is using 7 heros.

Had the same with Jennur's Horde the other day. Was in a PUG and we tried for close to two hours to get the bonus. I H/H'd it after we all /ragequit and did it the first time round....

PUGS are just too hard to come by good ones. (Yes I know that sentence made limited sense but I'm too tired to actually fix it right now.) There aren't enough players in game, not enough people at an outpost when you need them, and about a million different problems that are simply not making Pugging viable anymore. 7 Heroes I really believe will end up being inevitable just to keep people playing, because the times I play I'm lucky I even see one person in any of the outposts I'm in.

Why do you think you dont see people in the outpost you are in? due to a lack of players? or due to a lack of poeple pugging? No1 is in the outpost cause they just get there and H/H it w/o looking for a party.

^ Because H/H'ing is better than PuG'ing. WAY better. I mean, the other day, I pugged Hell's for the lulz, and the two eles we took had less than 400hp each and managed to die under the effect of SY! by getting into the frontlines and not kiting.

Before people would have to PuG and fail a dozen times. Now we have heroes so we don't have to be stuck a week on a mission. Of course there are henchies, and a number of missions are henchable, but in some places they just don't cut in.

And you gotta admit, there's lack of players.

Some already finished all the campaigns and know how to do it H/H, they're just finishing with another char.

Some like you get Guild groups for everything. Good for you.

Some just quit. And thousands more will continue that way.

As it was said before, Heroes didn't killed PuG's, PuG's suicided and Heroes made our day by allowing us to play comfortably (sp?).

before there were heros only 4 or 5 out of every 10 pug groups i got in were bad to the point of not being able to do the mission or having to take longer than 30mins

no theres a lack of people pugging cause every is using heros, whens the last time you have been to Kam,KC or LA? most the time dis 1 is full and the other 9 districts are full of people as well, and then you have to count in the Europe districts as well

not sure i get your point there.

like ?


no, more then 3/4 of the game using heros killed it. Not every pug was bad before heros. Sure theirs always going to be a bad pug and every 1 has a story about how a pug phailed but Before nightfall there were also a lot of good pugs.

Any 1 that played for 3 years will agree, before night fall, the game felt very different then it does now, it felt bigger cause you played with people. After night fall came out people just used heros and it started to seem smaller and smaller cause you didnt see as many people.

If you dont like pugs find or make a guild that do the things you like to do dont ask for 7heros cause you want to stay away from pugs as much as you can, that will kill the game more then 3 heros did

I still think the whole idea that more heroes means less PUGs is wrong.

You guys who H/H, would you PUG if you couldn't bring heroes?

For me, I know for a fact that I wouldn't, as I completed Prophecies and Factions with just henches, PUGing only 2-3 times in missions which were very hard to do before heroes and flagging, e.g. Eternal Grove.

I PUG only when i have no other options. First H/H, second guild/ally and after that PUG.
If someone ask me and i have time im joining to a PUG to help. In other cases im a lonely wolf....
ANET do everithing to free their servers AND gain new customers.
But with 1 ars you cant ride 2 horse....

/signed for 7 heroes

I completely agree, Numa.

So still half the time you'd be ragequitting 'cause of the stupid wammo.

H/H never over aggro. They also don't argue, you can quit if something IRL comes up, and the success rate is better than with only henchies.

Europe districts = 1.

LA = 1-2 districts as in FULL. KC = dead. Kam = 3 districts.

Remember Ascalon, Drok's and LA with it's 30+ districts each?

Pointing out that people that want/need their new toons at the end of the campaign/some middle point won't PuG because success is assured with H/H.


Since very early, we've had the chance to hench it when the people avaliavable are just terribaed. That's one of GW's features. And don't come with the argument of GTFO and buy a single player game, because that's just stupid.

Some people joined in the begginning because of the multiplayer aspect. Now that it's kinda dead, some of those people quit the game or took a break.

Others that came late to the party are still playing because they can play solo or with other players, and they don't rely (sp?) completely on the terribaed henchies; but not because they always play alone. They also want to succeed (as in finishing mission/dungeon/zone) because PuG's suck now or don't exist. It's an option.

I personally find Guild Wars rather overpriced for a short single-player game.

I'm in favor of 7 Hero's too, it's not just a matter of not having people for missions,quests,etc but there almost mandatory for vanquishing because you just can not PuG that, I got legendary vanquisher without grouping with a single person I did look from time to time in the more populated areas if anyone else was doing it, and not because I was looking for help or was even going to group with them but just too see if people was asking big fat zero across the board over all the campaigns.

The reason is this vanquishing takes a lot of time with some areas I did one the other day in EoTN that took 3-4hours, people just don't have that sort of time to be able to keep 8 people together long enough, some might granted but I'd propose that they are a rarity.

It is inevitable the only question is how much time it takes for Arena Net to wake up.

umm no cuz i dont get mad over a game in pve ...


thats only happened to me 5 or 6 times to me when i was in a guild group or pug.


what time did u look cause about 6PM EST today there were 11districts in Kam.. if you looking right now all i have to say is no shit it 4AM EST no 1 is playing any where on the US servers

there was only 1 game out when they had that many so people were more packed in.



and theres a bird in the tree next to me whats your point?



how so? why are you playing a online game if you dont want to play with other players?

no its not, a lot of guilds have np getting people to do things together.

whats the point of playing if your not going to have fun doing it? Finishing quest etc by yourself if far from fun imo and im sure most people will agree.

what do you think guilds are for?

If actually played as single-player games (ie not being helped by experienced players, not researching missions in wiki, and actually doing quests) they're anything but short.

It took me over 100 hours to finish Prophecies on my first character, and that's about 2-5x more than an average single-player cRPG.

And frankly the quality of the content is about on par with games like Oblivion (and the combat infinitely better).

So no, it's not overpriced if played as a single player game.

Results may differ, sir.

Most quests are fed-ex or 'go to random place and kill mob' - making a dozen identical quests doesn't lengthen gameplay, it just wastes time.

Even then, no, Prophecies still didn't take that long. Not enough to justify the price to me as a SP game.

if you only do missions it will not talk very long but if you do every quest and go to every down it can take ages imo

Then you haven't pugged as much you said you did/do.

Ok so let's see... Last time I checked, districts 5-12 weren't even full. The only one ever full is 1.

And if you add up everyone playing these days, you won't get such numbers.

No there's not because it's 4 am EST remember?

And it's one of the reasons people don't need to PuG anymore.

Did I say so? No. I still do AB/RA with other people. I still do HM missions/zones when a group gets together. I still help others with the occassional mission/quest. But are other experienced players interested in doing Venta Cemetery Pugway NM? No, neither I am, except for the occassional toon that you run through.

You have to understand, there's more besides your own little world and your own little guild or alliance (or big, w/e). I'm more of a loner guy, not those attention talkative kiddies, and people have different means of having fun. Yours is not the only one.

While you play you're also chatting with friends, there's a somewhat pathetic built game economy, graphics, numerous posibilities as far as team strategy go, and an achievement game record, from the top of my head, that keep myself interested.

absolutely.... for me Proph was ~300 hours...
I enjoyed every minutes.
I started FC and NF in the meenwhile... doing all 3 campaign simultaneously.
I had 18 months in the game without any bad feeling. (Then arrived LS ... but i dont want start it again )
I PUgged, allyed, soloed, H/H-ed ... i played as many way i could.
If i could i try fullheroe-ed too.

before night fall came out i did nothing but pug when i pve



and the others are not far from being full

and what about events? theres over 200 districts then



no shit? does not mean theres not a ton of people still playing


the point of the bird was that it had no point at all like you saying "people use heros"

and that helps my points cause your saying people dont pug cause they use heros.



i do understand that but, its a online game. You dont play a racing game and say "hmm this game needs to be more like a FPS" do you?

if you want to hero every thing "not pointing this at ALF71BE" why dont you just play some other game? having 7 heros will make it even harder to find people to play with.

Mostly? GvG, TA, HA.. I can't understand why beyond a couple of elite areas why anyone would build a Guild completely based on PvE it doesn't make much sense.

And before you pull the line "why are you playing a online game if you dont want to play with other players?" with me as well I'll tell you why, because I like the game just because it's online doesn't make me like it less, in fact it's by and large superfluous unless I'm thinking of playing PvP, and at the time I could find any RPG games I liked 3 years ago and to be honest I still can't, GW was the grand experiment of if I like online RPG games result is due to various factors I do not, but I do still like to play GW.

so you dont have to do VQs, HM missions, Duns etc etc with boring heros. its also good for your bank.

Hero's aren't boring that's the thing you have to be very skilled to pull off somethings in fact it makes the game harder with hero's it's more of a challenge, playing with humans makes the game too easy.

So by your logic Heroes should be removed since Henchman make it more of a challenge?

Anyways, I don't care either way. This change is practically cosmetic considering how easy it is to just grab 1 more person to bring heroes and leave, and that H/H isn't really limited in what it can accomplish. It's one of those things ANet might roll out when they've got nothing else to show because they're working on other projects.

Some of you mentioned that you've had a few very good experiences with PuG's... but imo those are balanced out by the times when PuG groups have people that are negatively affected by their environment (also known as a**holes) and use GW to vent out their anger. I've met these type of people who show what kind of person they really are about in the middle of the respective area... at which point you have to ask yourself "Should I endure their mental abuse and just finish this quest/mission or should I go back and waste the time I've already been playing?" So, in the end, I get this equation:

PuG = socializing AND (relaxation OR mental abuse) AND low chance of success

The relaxation and mental abuse cancel each other out, and there's no reason to join a PuG if you're only interested in success... so their only unique attribute is their "socializing". Therefore, since PuG's are already used for socializing, I don't see how having 7 heroes is going to change that.

Where did I say that? the hero's should be increased to 7 because that introduces more challenge.

so you saying if you had to pick a good guild team or heros you'd pick heros?

agreed and i lol'ed

if you want a challenge why dont you pug it?



thats any internet game, and if they are assholes, theres this thing call mute.

That was some interesting selective quoting you did on my post there. In response, the reason people don't PUG (as said in the part of my post you chose not to quote) is simply because as I said it took me close to two hours to fail a mission I did the first time through with masters with just H/H. Why would a player waste their time with a PUG when they can already do everything themselves, and better...

I don't think you can blame the advent of heroes on people not being in outposts as the number of people around was already vastly diminished before Nightfall was ever released. Heroes are a relatively new part of the game, and the community was already thinning (at least as far as community looking for parties in outposts) by about two months after Factions came out. Henchmen on the other hand have been part of the game since the beginning, and have always been available for use. Even when it was just Henchmen people still preferred them to PUGs most of the time.

This is not just by chance, there is a very good reason for this, and the reason is as stated above; someone who has played this game for any great length of time (over 3 years in my case) simply doesn't have the patience to babysit a whole bunch of newbs through a mission they can do themselves in 1 minute. Harsh as that may sound to newer players, adding 7 heroes can only help them too in the long run. Whether we get 7 heroes or not will not change the fact that people are not going to PUG. To get us to do that you would have to remove all heroes and all henchmen, but if that happens then Anet loses I'd wager 90% of their player base.

Yes people may not want 7 heroes, but not giving us 7 heroes is never going to make us PUG.

You actually referenced a trade city as proof that the number of people playing the game has not declined? Go to a city that are not along the main path in Factions, the number of people in these city can usually be counted on one hand.

This is subjective. You are basing the statement on your own experience were as in my experience before Factions was released I had already determined the best groups were Guild groups or henchmen group.

Nope, been playing since the very beginning and the game felt bigger to me because it took longer to level up.

What killed pugs was pugs, not heroes. The holy trinity and failure of pugs to realize that meta group builds might have room for improvement. When I started my first Mesmer I realized real quick that pugs were not an option in harder missions. It was the same when I started my Assassin, pugs were just not an option when Factions came out.

The failure of players to learn has been my biggest problem. I don't tell people how to play, I shouldn't have to, they should take the time to learn. When you have a player in later parts of Prophecies that does not have infused armor I feel they need to go back to the beginning and start over.

Anyone in the game can tell the game is loosing players and the reason for that is no knew stuff in over a year. Want to do the elite missions in Factions, I hope you have a PvE guild and I am not telling people to change guilds or create a guild, they may like what they have and just want to try out an elite mission. I have been in the same guild since June 2005, I am not changing now and I don't expect others to change either.

Did a little test: I went to 9 cities to see how many people were there.
Results:
The Aurios Mines = 0
Seafarer's Rest = 2
Eredon Terrace = 0
Bai Paasu Reach = 1
Amatz Basin = 1
Durheim Archives = 0
Brauer Academy = 1
Yahnur Market = 0
Lair of the Forgotten = 2

That means if you put all the towns together you only need one more person to have a full party. What was that argument against seven heroes, oh would kill pugs, opps already dead.

With 7 heroes there will be less pugs. As simple as that.

I noticed one more thing opposed to that statement are mostly playes who do not PUG themselves. I do not get that. If you do not PUG how you can notice tendencies PUGs have? "I do not PUG because PUGs sucks but I am the expert on how the PUGs look like and how they behave". LOL

I know many of you likes solo play and 7 heroes will facilitate it. This is understandable but please not make yourself funny by discussing features of the game you do not take any part in. I personally do not like the logic " I failed with so many (usually 2-3) Pugs so lets make sure they disappear from the game".

I think it is true that there were less PUGs after introduction of heroes. They were then mostly present in the elite areas and a few harder missions. There are no more PUGs with lets walk around a bit and explore or lets do some stuff together etc. After Ursan nerf numbers of Pugs decreased again. Now with 7 heroes in my opinion it will be reduced even more. Since most of you do not Pug why the hell you want to make it harder for the ones who do (I mean newbies here, not most of you and not me)?

Again I do not see the reason for making this game even more single player oriented than it was before. I think it is shooting in one's own leg because if Anet notices that this game is only single player oriented with dead pvp then they will close their GW1 servers down. If you want this game to be still alive instead of constant complaining about it to Anet start making sure it is attractive to new players. They quit not because skills are unbalanced or Ursan is not nerfed but because of jerks and people not wanting to team up. More new players more money for Anet, more chances they will work a bit more on gw1 and close their servers a bit later. I think people posting themselves in helper list made a brilliant initiative. It is a pity that other ones want to sabotage that effort.