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Originally Posted by JDRyder
and this makes me wrong how?
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The game was designed from conception to be able to be played alone is this in anyway unclear to you?
A discussion on 7 heroes
Inner Salbat
The game was designed from conception to be able to be played alone is this in anyway unclear to you?
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Inner Salbat
The game was designed from conception to be able to be played alone is this in anyway unclear to you?
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DreamWind
Yes...its extremely unclear because the box says HENCHMEN. It says nothing about heros. Not to mention the brilliant fact brought up by Avarre that original game design (as advertised on boxes) and current game design are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. asfdsafds
Inner Salbat
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Originally Posted by DreamWind
Yes...its extremely unclear because the box says HENCHMEN. It says nothing about heros. Not to mention the brilliant fact brought up by Avarre that original game design (as advertised on boxes) and current game design are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. asfdsafds
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The trouble is with the content they have henchmen are largely ineffective but only when it comes to hard mode.
Amy Awien
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Originally Posted by DreamWind
Yes...its extremely unclear because the box says HENCHMEN. It says nothing about heros.
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"Recruit a team of fearless Heroes who will fight at your side and follow orders in combat."
There's no basis for claims that the game was intended to be played with humans alone. The henchmen were in it from the start and with the heroes added later this really does not indicate to me that using H/H is in any way going against the 'design'.
JDRyder
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Originally Posted by Inner Salbat
You've been wrong this whole entire time you just absolutely dogmatically sticking to a rubber gun hoping it will shoot a bullet your sterile.
The game was designed from conception to be able to be played alone is this in anyway unclear to you? |
with no heros you can still solo the missions, with the way things are now you can solo the missions, Some areas were made for guilds/friend/pugs cause they didnt add henchmen to it.
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Originally Posted by Amy Awien
The Nightfall box extends it to heroes.
"Recruit a team of fearless Heroes who will fight at your side and follow orders in combat." There's no basis for claims that the game was intended to be played with humans alone. The henchmen were in it from the start and with the heroes added later this really does not indicate to me that using H/H is in any way going against the 'design'. |
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Originally Posted by trankle
Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't playing with random people what you're all about? Isn't that what defines fun, and is best for the game?
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Originally Posted by trankle
Wouldn't grabbing random players from LA serve this purpose nicely?
Also, is it not true that every time you group with seven guild members, that's seven potential PUGgers you exclude? |
Shasgaliel
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
with no heros you can still solo the missions, with the way things are now you can solo the missions, Some areas were made for guilds/friend/pugs cause they didnt add henchmen to it.
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The only argument so far I liked for 7 heroes was that they will allow better team build creativity and allow to enjoy the game with a set of skills fully chosen by player (3 heroes in 4 man area doesn't do the trick apparently, but 7 will do or maybe 11?). I would like to enjoy that myself as well. But it does not mean that I have to pretend to be blind regarding other aspects of the game as PUGs which will diminish as I explained already so many times before. Keeping things as they are, does not change much but implementing 7 heroes will make some people happy at the cost of others. I would like such improvement as heroes but without side effects on the team play it has. If at the other hand puging would somehow be improved by some other changes in the game then no problem. I realize that people who do not pug might not understand that, but the ones who pug do and so far Anet seems to see it this way as well.
Inner Salbat
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
and this means you have to 7 heros why?
with no heros you can still solo the missions, with the way things are now you can solo the missions, Some areas were made for guilds/friend/pugs cause they didnt add henchmen to it. I dont see where it says "have 7heros" no i play with H/H, Guild groups, friends and pugs ? |
You play with guilds / friend and pugs that is perfectly fine but where do you get off dictating to the rest of the community 500+ of us so far that your way is the way it should be?
Not everyone has friends they can call on, not everyone has a guild with people to do things with, that's the very reason henchmen and heros exist for but the henchmen do not match the game mechanics when it comes to hard mode, but then there is no use explaining this to you I may as well have the conversation with my wall, because it has about the same flexibility and understanding of the over all picture as you do.
Henchmen fall far far short when it comes to hard mode, I wouldn't even bother adding the extra 4 heros for normal mode, but for hard mode you bet I would add the other 4 of my heros, I've vanquished every area in the game and if it had not been for consumables and power stones it would not have been possible at all, I should not have had to resort to spending gold to complete that game goal I should have been able to construct a build to complete the goal without them.
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Originally Posted by Shasgaliel
I think you will need to post this part on every next coming page of this thread even though it was posted more than 10 times already. It still seems that it is unnoticed or misunderstood by people discussing with you. The game can be done solo with henchmen and heroes and there is no need to make this soloing any easier.
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JDRyder
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Originally Posted by Inner Salbat
It doesn't it says Heros implying more than 1 or that would be "hero", you could take implication of which that it could mean 2,3,4,5,6 or 7 additionally it leaves them open to increase or decrease the number of allowed heros without being sued for false advertising by not mandatory stating an exact number, which gives them flexibility if they need it.
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this this is dumb ....
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Originally Posted by Inner Salbat
You play with guilds / friend and pugs that is perfectly fine but where do you get off dictating to the rest of the community 500+ of us so far that your way is the way it should be?
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Originally Posted by Inner Salbat
Not everyone has friends they can call on, not everyone has a guild with people to do things with, that's the very reason henchmen and heros exist for but the henchmen do not match the game mechanics when it comes to hard mode, but then there is no use explaining this to you I may as well have the conversation with my wall, because it has about the same flexibility and understanding of the over all picture as you do.
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Originally Posted by Inner Salbat
Henchmen fall far far short when it comes to hard mode, I wouldn't even bother adding the extra 4 heros for normal mode, but for hard mode you bet I would add the other 4 of my heros, I've vanquished every area in the game and if it had not been for consumables and power stones it would not have been possible at all, I should not have had to resort to spending gold to complete that game goal I should have been able to construct a build to complete the goal without them.
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Originally Posted by Inner Salbat
Any easier ? have you any idea how hard some of that stuff is with h/h I guess not maybe your another one of these lucky people with friends and a guild?
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any 1 can have friends/guilds its nothing to do with luck, its just 5-10mins in the guru guild rec threads.
Inner Salbat
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
...
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sixofone
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
this this is dumb ....
if 99% of Guild wars wanted a sword that killed every thing in 1 hit do you give it to them? |
Try arguing the actual point instead of some ridiculous, exaggerated one.
eximiis
Pugs are bad, they will alway be bad.
If they remove heroes, ppl will go with henchman or will go with guilds not with Pugs.
So if they add 7 heroes or remove heroes, ppl still don't go with pugs.
Why do you puggers don't want 7 heroes, what do you want ?? any things we can do for you ??? Your pugs are already bad, why don't you go find a guild and play with them while we (Hway) get 7 heroes ???
If they remove heroes, ppl will go with henchman or will go with guilds not with Pugs.
So if they add 7 heroes or remove heroes, ppl still don't go with pugs.
Why do you puggers don't want 7 heroes, what do you want ?? any things we can do for you ??? Your pugs are already bad, why don't you go find a guild and play with them while we (Hway) get 7 heroes ???
sixofone
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Originally Posted by eximiis
Pugs are bad, they will alway be bad.
If they remove heroes, ppl will go with henchman or will go with guilds not with Pugs. So if they add 7 heroes or remove heroes, ppl still don't go with pugs. Why do you puggers don't want 7 heroes, what do you want ?? any things we can do for you ??? Your pugs are already bad, why don't you go find a guild and play with them while we (Hway) get 7 heroes ??? |
Maybe they're right. And unfortunately, most of us don't care if that happens or not. I don't PUG, so I wouldn't miss it. People still PUG in PvP anyway, so why limit PvE based on a minority of players?
DreamWind
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Originally Posted by Inner Salbat
I'd agree with that maybe I should sue them for false advertising ? - I don't think so the basic concepts are still there or henchmen would not exist today, the point is that simple concept is 35% of the reason why I brought the game, saw the game looked at the box and thought "Ahuh! so if I can't find/don't want too I can play it by myself bonus" one for the tick column.
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Originally Posted by Amy Awein
The Nightfall box extends it to heroes.
"Recruit a team of fearless Heroes who will fight at your side and follow orders in combat." There's no basis for claims that the game was intended to be played with humans alone. |
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Originally Posted by sixofone
LOL -true! Your argument "is dumb..." If the thread were about a sword that killed everything in 1 hit, then chances are most of us would agree. But, since its not...
Try arguing the actual point instead of some ridiculous, exaggerated one. |
Shasgaliel
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Originally Posted by eximiis
Pugs are bad, they will alway be bad.
If they remove heroes, ppl will go with henchman or will go with guilds not with Pugs. So if they add 7 heroes or remove heroes, ppl still don't go with pugs. Why do you puggers don't want 7 heroes, what do you want ?? any things we can do for you ??? Your pugs are already bad, why don't you go find a guild and play with them while we (Hway) get 7 heroes ??? |
sixofone
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Originally Posted by DreamWind
Actually I find his argument to be quite valid. Should something be put into the game because the players demand it even if it is bad for the game? Thoughts of Ursan ring in my head.
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Was adding heroes bad for the game? Seems a lot of people don't agree with that argument, either.
Please - no more of the "should something bad be added to the game no matter how many people want it" arguments. Obviously the answer is no. But, you make a huge leap about what is "bad for the game" when you equate 7 heroes with imba OP God-mode!
What's bad for PUGs does not = bad for the game. It's bad for PUGs in PvE, and that's it.
eximiis
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Originally Posted by Shasgaliel
Answers you will find in this thread. Please read the thread. My question is how many times people have to post the same arguments over and over? 7 heroes reduces the possibility of PUGs if you want detailed arguments read the thread. BTW most of the people against the heroes have guilds so I do not get your advice of finding one.
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And NO 7 heroes will NOT REDUCE the possibility of PUGS. the possibility are already kill !!!!
It's like shooting on a dead body. He's already dead so he won't die more !
Inner Salbat
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Originally Posted by eximiis
I have read this thread. the same arguments are post over and over because they are true. If ppl already have a guild then play with your guilds and don't pug. experience with pugs are bad.
And NO 7 heroes will NOT REDUCE the possibility of PUGS. the possibility are already kill !!!! It's like shooting on a dead body. He's already dead so he won't die more ! |
How much do they suck? I watched my wife do The Wilds / Bloodstone Fen / Aurora Glade .. lets say after 2 weeks of watching her try with PuG after PuG and then getting to Aurora Glade and getting the same trash PuGs, I walked in there myself ripped the place to shreds with some other strange person tagging long with my wife, the ele was in the group she was in before I came a long I didn't want to be mean so she came too.
The only thing 7 heros will do is add more fun, and I can quit cursing ArenaNet for it's suck henchman builds and blame myself for my own suck build which would make me make it suck less.
JDRyder
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Originally Posted by sixofone
LOL -true! Your argument "is dumb..." If the thread were about a sword that killed everything in 1 hit, then chances are most of us would agree. But, since its not...
Try arguing the actual point instead of some ridiculous, exaggerated one. |
try making a point other then trolling
sixofone
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
you can replace that with any thing really, if people wanted something that would ruin the game, is it a good idea?
try making a point other then trolling |
Considering that the way you argue is little more than trolling.
You keep stating things like "would ruin the game" when that hasn't been shown, nor even agreed with. Given the feedback here, it is overwhelmingly considered that using heroes has been a positive experience for people vs. PUGging. Can I say that's good for the game? Don't know. I can only say it's something I desire, and have enjoyed H&Hing.
So, again, how exactly does adding the use of 7 heroes ruin the game? By making it harder to PUG, in PvE? Hardly ruins anything - but, then again, I don't PUG, so I can appreciate your concerns.
Ack! Why do I bother responding to your posts...
DreamWind
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Originally Posted by sixofone
And most people here argued for nerfing Ursan, iirc.
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Originally Posted by sixofone
Please - no more of the "should something bad be added to the game no matter how many people want it" arguments. Obviously the answer is no. But, you make a huge leap about what is "bad for the game" when you equate 7 heroes with imba OP God-mode!
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sixofone
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Originally Posted by DreamWind
LoL? Ok for your benefit lets replace Ursan with Soul Reaping. The most whiney thread in the history of this forum...most people not wanting it nerfed even though it should have been nerfed years ago for the better of the game. See what I'm getting at?
The leap isn't that huge. Something is either good for the game or it isn't. |
As for the second, yes. But, you need to argue the specifics, not a generalized statement like that. Agreeing that you don't add something bad for the game does not equate to saying the use of 7 heroes is bad for the game.
To be clear: what you are arguing is - 7 heroes = bad for the game. To go back to JD's exaggerated example, we're not arguing about adding a 1-hit-kills-everything weapon. That's why I posted what I did - to get the thread back on point.
Stick with the specifics of what is being discussed here, not generalized exaggerations. That's what I mean by leap. "If A is bad for the game, B must be also" isn't a logical argument. Agreeing that A is bad doesn't mean agreeing that B must also be bad.
DreamWind
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Originally Posted by sixofone
On your first point, I'm in the camp that still feels SR is OP.
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There are a lot of people in this thread saying that since most people voted for 7 heroes, then it should be added to the game. As the soul reaping example shows, this isn't neccessarily true.
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Originally Posted by sixofone
As for the second, yes. But, you need to argue the specifics, not a generalized statement like that. Agreeing that you don't add something bad for the game does not equate to saying the use of 7 heroes is bad for the game.
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JDRyder
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Originally Posted by sixofone
I swore I wouldn't do this, but...
Considering that the way you argue is little more than trolling. You keep stating things like "would ruin the game" when that hasn't been shown, nor even agreed with. Given the feedback here, it is overwhelmingly considered that using heroes has been a positive experience for people vs. PUGging. Can I say that's good for the game? Don't know. I can only say it's something I desire, and have enjoyed H&Hing. So, again, how exactly does adding the use of 7 heroes ruin the game? By making it harder to PUG, in PvE? Hardly ruins anything - but, then again, I don't PUG, so I can appreciate your concerns. Ack! Why do I bother responding to your posts... |
A lot of people also say ursan was fun
if you dont pug how do you know any thing about how good they are
if you dont pug how do you know what will happen to pugs if 7 heros are added?
If you added 7heros you'd be able to solo places like DoA etc, they are places that were made for guild groups and friends, part of the reason they didnt add henchmen there in the 1st place. That gives people like you a reason to be in a guild,have friends or even pug.
You have not ask any Q that was not already asked/answered.
eximiis
@ JDRyder
Are you a pugger ??
If yes, how do U know that 7 heroes are bad for pugs ??
How come you still didn't notice pugs are bad ???
Have you ever seen a good pug ?? Have you ever found a pug in Snake Dance ??? Can i pm you to help me with Snake Dance or should i take henchman ???
DoA = 2 players with 6 heroes !!! If that's your only concern, then restrict to 2 human to enter those place. But then again, 8 perma/terra can clear the whole UW in ??? 10-30 mins ?? but i could bring my 7 heroes ?? why not ?
Are you a pugger ??
If yes, how do U know that 7 heroes are bad for pugs ??
How come you still didn't notice pugs are bad ???
Have you ever seen a good pug ?? Have you ever found a pug in Snake Dance ??? Can i pm you to help me with Snake Dance or should i take henchman ???
DoA = 2 players with 6 heroes !!! If that's your only concern, then restrict to 2 human to enter those place. But then again, 8 perma/terra can clear the whole UW in ??? 10-30 mins ?? but i could bring my 7 heroes ?? why not ?
R.Shayne
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Originally Posted by DreamWind
positive experiences don't always equate to a good thing.
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If you don’t think full hero parties are needed then go to Urgoz and try to get a PuG team together, pack a lunch. Remember only real players, no heroes and no guild or alliance members. They are people that don’t join Guilds or are part of a PvP guild and switching guilds is not something anyone should be forced to do just to play an elite mission. Yes they have just as much right as you and I when it comes to elite missions; they paid the same amount for the game. If you succeed in getting a PuG together then see how far you get.
Seven Heroes or henchmen in elite missions are needed. I would rather see heroes since they offer the customer the best chance of success and if a customer has a positive experience they may become a repeat customer.
Sleeper Service
heaven forbid having a positive enjoyable experience while playing a game.
JDRyder
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Originally Posted by eximiis
@ JDRyder
Are you a pugger ?? If yes, how do U know that 7 heroes are bad for pugs ?? How come you still didn't notice pugs are bad ??? Have you ever seen a good pug ?? Have you ever found a pug in Snake Dance ??? Can i pm you to help me with Snake Dance or should i take henchman ??? DoA = 2 players with 6 heroes !!! If that's your only concern, then restrict to 2 human to enter those place. But then again, 8 perma/terra can clear the whole UW in ??? 10-30 mins ?? but i could bring my 7 heroes ?? why not ? |
People have already given reasons go back and read them
I already said some are bad and some are good go back and read what i said about pugs
Yes ive seen many good pugs, go read back a few pages.
What? is snake dances to hard for you to H/H? if so get a guild
You still need to have a friend, guild or pug to do so. I had it my way you'd need 7 other friends/guildies/pugs to do so, or at least take heros down to 1 per person
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Originally Posted by Sleeper Service
heaven forbid having a positive enjoyable experience while playing a game.
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Sleeper Service
if we had it your way JDRyder GW would be DEAD.
how bout you stay in your guild and stop posting crap.
how bout you stay in your guild and stop posting crap.
trankle
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
i do pug,friends,H/H and guild i said that a page ago.
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eximiis
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
i do pug,friends,H/H and guild i said that a page ago.
People have already given reasons go back and read them I already said some are bad and some are good go back and read what i said about pugs Yes ive seen many good pugs, go read back a few pages. What? is snake dances to hard for you to H/H? if so get a guild You still need to have a friend, guild or pug to do so. I had it my way you'd need 7 other friends/guildies/pugs to do so, or at least take heros down to 1 per person |
Because you want more failure in pugs, i have to use henchmen. What if i get the 7 heroes (i'm happy) and you continue to play whatever way you like.
i made a example with Snake Dance. 75% of the explorable are empty. It's not just Snake Dance.
JDRyder
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Originally Posted by eximiis
Not everyone has guild, or want's a guild.
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Originally Posted by eximiis
Yes we could use H/H but why not just heroes. Because you want more failure in pugs, i have to use henchmen. What if i get the 7 heroes (i'm happy) and you continue to play whatever way you like.
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Originally Posted by trankle
On the occasions you H/H, what are your reasons for doing so?
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Originally Posted by Sleeper Service
if we had it your way JDRyder GW would be DEAD.
how bout you stay in your guild and stop posting crap. |
Sleeper Service
Jesus get a clue before talking, if the game had remained the same as at release it would be Prophesies only and people would have LEFT.
there a ton of other arguments posted previously but hey if you cant be bothered to read and all you want is people to play your way and with you....well, prepared to be disappointed.
there a ton of other arguments posted previously but hey if you cant be bothered to read and all you want is people to play your way and with you....well, prepared to be disappointed.
Tyla
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Originally Posted by Sleeper Service
Jesus get a clue before talking, if the game had remained the same as at release it would be Prophesies only and people would have LEFT.
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Whether or not Ursan, or heroes were good for the game, the poll results shouldn't determine whether it should be done or shouldn't.
I still think that 7 heroes should be in the game though, for reasons already stated.
eximiis
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
the game would be way to easy with 7heros, 3 heros already make it easier then needed. think about the builds that people come up with just 3heros, and then think about what they could come up with if they added 7heros. This is not a SP game there are no cheat codes, if some content is to hard for you, get better.
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What about 8 human with pve skills, and Human brain ?? would that be better than 7 heroes ??
Imagine all the builds a 8 human could do !!.
We don't need 7 heroes because the game is too hard !! it's because pugs are bad and guildies are offline and we want to test out some builds. see the synergy betwen them, or just for the fun of playing with 2 mesmer in pve.
Can you be more inbalance 6 echo/CoP ?? come on, don't talk of 7 heroes being overpower !!
trankle
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
the game would be way to easy with 7heros, 3 heros already make it easier then needed. think about the builds that people come up with just 3heros, and then think about what they could come up with if they added 7heros. This is not a SP game there are no cheat codes, if some content is to hard for you, get better.
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
whats your reason for posting? thats a bad Q imo.
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If you are claiming that players should play with friends or guildies, or failing that, PUG's, but then you say you sometimes play H/H, then I'm wondering what could lead you to make that decision.
I have a couple guesses:
1. You are playing at a time when guildies/friends are not available/willing to join you in your chosen task, and you cannot find a PUG. If this is the case, you would be admitting that "play with other people" doesn't always work as an argument.
2. You are sometimes in a mood to play alone, or to do a task/quest that you feel doesn't warrant the process of grouping with real people. So you choose to help kill the game instead of playing with real players.
3. You do not actually play in full H/H parties, but wanted to claim you do in order to be able to speak with authority about them.
Since I only have guesses, I thought I'd ask. Care to answer?
tmr819
As I asked earlier in this thread, if the ability to use 7 heroes was an option obtainable via purchase, what would be the effect?
My best guess is that the only people who would be willing to pay for this option would be solo-oriented players who are not PUGing anyway or else who felt that working with 7 heroes would just be really fun and worth the added expense. I also suspect that the only players willing to shell out additional bucks for such a feature would be players who are primarily to exclusively solo players.
Rather than hand this out for free and let 7 heroes "kill the game", I think ANet should offer it for sale and let those that want it pay for it. This would be good for ANet ($$$) and good for players that prefer to solo and probably have little to no noticeable impact on the rest of the GW community or PUGing, in my opinion.
I do not think offering such an option for sale would hurt PUGing nearly as much (or at all, really) as it might if it were just handed out to all players in an upcoming patch or something, since the market would likely restrict the feature to people who are already not PUGing or hardly ever PUGing.
Polls are nice, but I say let players vote with their cash on whether this would be a worthwhile feature or not.
My best guess is that the only people who would be willing to pay for this option would be solo-oriented players who are not PUGing anyway or else who felt that working with 7 heroes would just be really fun and worth the added expense. I also suspect that the only players willing to shell out additional bucks for such a feature would be players who are primarily to exclusively solo players.
Rather than hand this out for free and let 7 heroes "kill the game", I think ANet should offer it for sale and let those that want it pay for it. This would be good for ANet ($$$) and good for players that prefer to solo and probably have little to no noticeable impact on the rest of the GW community or PUGing, in my opinion.
I do not think offering such an option for sale would hurt PUGing nearly as much (or at all, really) as it might if it were just handed out to all players in an upcoming patch or something, since the market would likely restrict the feature to people who are already not PUGing or hardly ever PUGing.
Polls are nice, but I say let players vote with their cash on whether this would be a worthwhile feature or not.
creelie
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Originally Posted by trankle
You do understand that real players are more powerful than heroes, don't you?
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Guildies are human players at their best, and PUGlies are human players at their worst. AI falls between the 2 extremes.
A lot of people play mostly with AI most of the time, including myself - AI is infinitely preferable to the horrors of a PUG. A guild group is the best and most fun, but sometimes I can't get a group together, or I don't want to waste a guildie's time while I do something really boring. So I fill up my party with patient, reliable AI and go about my business, maybe chatting to people at the same time.
7 heroes is definitely a lot more powerful than 3 heroes and 4 henchies. It would make playing with full AI teams that much easier, it's true. But full AI teams will never come close to accomplishing what 8 skilled humans can accomplish. And it would give the player that much more control and customization, and on what planet is that a bad thing?
Lishy
I am being patient, but seriously ANET... What the heck is taking you so long to implement this? Let alone, giving reasoning why we don't have 7 heroes. Removing the hero limit would DEFINITELY be much easier than the MOX quests, which were fun but retarded because you cannot redo them.
Amy Awien
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
... If all the people that only play H/H left the game it'd do nothing to the game anyway other than make ecto go up. ...
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