~Ursan Blessing and balance~

Racthoh

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
Take a single player with ursan blessing and 7 hench out and see if it totaly overpowers foes on hard mode, I think you all know the answer.
Curse of the Nornbear is a good example of showing how the Ursan blessing can be very effective when compared to a normal warrior skill bar. Immediately you're swamped with conditions from the mandragor's, then jotun packs for the rest of the mission. You could bring extra hex removal for the Visions of Regret, Ineptitude, Clumsiness spam or you can just Ursan and ignore all of the shutdown you would've face. Hard choice; use Flail through Visions of Regret for 150 damage or Ursan Strike the Jotun for 150 damage? Overpowered? Compared to what you would've been doing with normal skills in that situation it sure is.

Quote: Originally Posted by trobinson97 I've played long enough and been in enough bad Pugs with bad monks and still survived to know it doesn't take a skilled monk to ensure survivability. As Simath mentioned the individual (in this case, the monk) could be surrounded by superior players to make up for their lack of ability. I could bring along a necromancer hero with Enfeebling Blood and Reckless Haste to significantly reduce the pressure on the party. It would significantly reduce the workload of the bad monk when everything is either missing or striking for 66% less damage.

Quote:
Every class has their own self heal for a reason. The good monks would be the ones you can trust enough not to bring a self-heal and in that spot slot some utility to make their job even easier.

Quote:
Huh, Which only proves once again, that it doesn't always take skill, especially in PvE. What is baffling is despite practically every situation being pre-determined players are still unable to succeed on consecutive attempts. These are the players who simply refuse to try and adapt continuing to run the same bars in hopes that it just eventually works. It's basic problem solving and you can only help but wonder how these people made it through pre-school (why isn't my square fitting in the triangle spot?). The kind of people who ask for assistance on any trivial task I want them to fail repeatedly until they come to a working solution and actually learn on their own instead of resorting to Ursan Blessing. Ya know, catch a man a fish and feed him for a day or teach him to fish and you'll feed him for life.

kmburton

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2006

Texas

Heroes Etc. [HeEt]

R/

[QUOTE=Whiskeyjack]While i agree that PvE does not require the same amount balance that PvP does I do think some sembelance of balance must be maintained. Most of the PvE only skills are ok being slightly more powerful version's of regular skills or providing a useful effect that you would normally have to spec another attribute line to get.
The problems arise when a certain number of skills are so powerful that even "bad" players can steamroll any area in the game without even breaking a sweat. Ursan falls into this category (SY! being another culprit imo), I believe this skill was included due to all the whining from certain quarters that the previous campaigns were to hard(obviously untrue) so Anet decided to include a skill that any fool could use and expect to win.
QUOTE]

Why does that matter? You'll never play against them in PvE. How does it effect your playing PvE? Why do you care about how someone else plays PvE? The only time another player affects you PvE game is when they are in your instance, ie. PUGS. And, in that case it would seem like you'd be happy that "bad" player had UB?
Skill balance for PvE only skills is a joke. The people complaining about them just want to make everyone play like they do. Which is pretty scary......

DivineEnvoy

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2005

Me/P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racthoh
What is baffling is despite practically every situation being pre-determined players are still unable to succeed on consecutive attempts. These are the players who simply refuse to try and adapt continuing to run the same bars in hopes that it just eventually works. It's basic problem solving and you can only help but wonder how these people made it through pre-school (why isn't my square fitting in the triangle spot?). The kind of people who ask for assistance on any trivial task I want them to fail repeatedly until they come to a working solution and actually learn on their own instead of resorting to Ursan Blessing. Ya know, catch a man a fish and feed him for a day or teach him to fish and you'll feed him for life. Is it just me or does that sound wrong for so many reasons?

Whirlwind

Whirlwind

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

Wolven Empire

D/

By Racthoh
Quote:
Curse of the Nornbear is a good example of showing how the Ursan blessing can be very effective when compared to a normal warrior skill bar. Immediately you're swamped with conditions from the mandragor's, then jotun packs for the rest of the mission. You could bring extra hex removal for the Visions of Regret, Ineptitude, Clumsiness spam or you can just Ursan and ignore all of the shutdown you would've face. Hard choice; use Flail through Visions of Regret for 150 damage or Ursan Strike the Jotun for 150 damage? Overpowered? Compared to what you would've been doing with normal skills in that situation it sure is. That is not a valid argument, since that mission came out with the same game as Ursan did. Therefor there is no reason to run a normal warrior/derv/monk whatever bar, since they clearly intended for ursan to be useable in the expansion.

zwei2stein

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy
Is it just me or does that sound wrong for so many reasons? Actually no, it does not.

If you can fallback to "easy mode" instead of improving yourslelf in game where skill is supposed to be important, there is something wrong.

One of main motivation to improve oneself is failure: you improve in order not to fail again. Once you improved, you wont fail again.

If you give someone easy way out (in grind games, it was grinding for next tier or level), he wont learn and stay sucky player.

normal mode pve is easy, so its not like ursan has reall place in game outside being win button for challenging content. win buttons are not fun.

Crom The Pale

Crom The Pale

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

Ageis Ascending

W/

Your saying its only overpowered if a war uses it?

How about an ele or mesmer or necromancer, none of those hexes would stop them?

You still have to attack while in UB to keep your energy up unless your tanking so Clumsyness is still a factor. Claiming that it can be avoided by stoping your attack is pointless since that is true regardless of UB. How is using UB any differnt than taking a war/monk and some hex/condition removal?

Claiming that the lack of healing is not worth concidering is also a false statement. Reliance on other team members is called for when using UB, and that is a good thing. Ursan blessing give a war a few more seconds of life, no more so than Defy Pain does and with 0 means of self healing.

The dmg output of ursan blessing has been proven less effective than a dragonslash war build. Added to that you can not inflict deepwound or bleeding or cripple.

This is an Elite PvE ONLY skill, it is suposed to be powerfull, even more so than any other pve only skill.

The other elite blessings are equally powerfull, but not as practical or as easy to use for most people so nobody is asking for thier nerfing.

Leave PvE skills alone, if you want balanced play go PvP, don't complain that a skill that gives us a chance vs a mob wielding monster only skills is making the game unplayable for you.

DivineEnvoy

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2005

Me/P

Quote:
Originally Posted by zwei2stein
Actually no, it does not.

If you can fallback to "easy mode" instead of improving yourslelf in game where skill is supposed to be important, there is something wrong.

One of main motivation to improve oneself is failure: you improve in order not to fail again. Once you improved, you wont fail again.

If you give someone easy way out (in grind games, it was grinding for next tier or level), he wont learn and stay sucky player.

normal mode pve is easy, so its not like ursan has reall place in game outside being win button for challenging content. win buttons are not fun. He wanted people to repeatedly fail in a game, just because he believes it's a skill based game. He wants other people to suffer simply because of his morals that this game must be skill-based. That's just wrong. Last time I checked, I paid for that 59.99 and the tax myself for the original Guild Wars back in 2004. Why should some random person jump out of nowhere have the rights to tell me what to do in a game I paid for it?

Also, what you said above is really just your opinion. You have your ways to play the game, everyone else have their ways; the right way, however, does not exist.

zwei2stein

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy
He wanted people to repeatedly fail in a game, just because he believes it's a skill based game. He wants other people to suffer simply because of his morals that this game must be skill-based. That's just wrong. Last time I checked, I paid for that 59.99 and the tax myself for the original Guild Wars back in 2004. Why should some random person jump out of nowhere have the rights to tell me what to do in a game I paid for it?

Also, what you said above is really just your opinion. You have your ways to play the game, everyone else have their ways; the right way, however, does not exist. You might consider paying close asdvertizements where gw was mentioned as game of strategy and skill.

anyway, he wa talking about hard stuff: hard mode, elite areas.

Noone really cares what you do in normal game, noone wants you to fail repeatetly there, bt there are areas where challenge needs to be preserved.

Basically, random pug of teribad players should NOT be able to flawess malyx thanks to ONE SINGLE SKILL, log in next day and still be teribad players. They should fail there repeatetly untill they l2p.

DivineEnvoy

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2005

Me/P

Quote:
Originally Posted by zwei2stein
You might consider paying close asdvertizements where gw was mentioned as game of strategy and skill.

anyway, he wa talking about hard stuff: hard mode, elite areas.

Noone really cares what you do in normal game, noone wants you to fail repeatetly there, bt there are areas where challenge needs to be preserved.

Basically, random pug of teribad players should NOT be able to flawess malyx thanks to ONE SINGLE SKILL, log in next day and still be teribad players. They should fail there repeatetly untill they l2p. Advertisement is a way to raise sales for a certain product. Buyers do not have to follow the exact way the product is introduced to make use of the product. People are humans, not robots.

Secondly, he never specificly referred to "hard stuff."

Lastly, it is once again your opinion to people should fail repeatedly until they learn to play, even in challenge areas. What is this learn to play anyways? There is already a limit to how many elite skills and pve-only skills we are allowed to bring; what's wrong with sacrificing two limits to bring Ursan Blessing? Do I have to bring only non-elite skills and non-pve only skills to a pve area just because that's what you considered to be morally correct? No, because that's only your moral standard or perhaps opinion; other people have different standards. Truly, one's morals should not extend to the rights of others.

Zorgy

Zorgy

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

Paris, France

[any]

W/Me

"...I recently Did Shards of Orr with 2 guild friends, The team consisted of 3 Smite/Heal monks, 3 Smite/Prot monks, and 2 tanks with FGJ and SY; one with Dslash and another went W/P. it pwned shards HARD. It was laughably easy, we raced through there. SY turned the monks into super soldiers. +100 armor makes most attacks/spells do practically no dmg at all. It is godmode..."

link:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10207449

This player does not speak about UB but SY.

So is SY (Save Yourself) overpowered like UB?????

As soon as I got a norn Elite I used it & when finally I got UB it was great & I completed GWEN with H/H except for 1 quest where I joined a PUG.

Atra Culpa

Atra Culpa

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

Manchester, England

Servants Of Fortuna [SOF]

N/

To be honest, a large part of the Ursan Blessing build is the use of consumables.
Essence of Celerity, Grail of Might, Armor of Salvation being the most notable.

They allow for heavier tanking, increased DPS and add an auto IAS.

Ursan just seems to be the best way of taking advantage of those, For now.

Remember that while Ursan Blessing itself is only one ELITE skill, It transforms your skill bar, thus changing the way you have to play.

There is no self heal on the skill bar (unlike on a Junundu)m which means the need for other players still exists. Could use heroes I expect, but those are a whole other game breaker aspect from a community standpoint.

Either way, it promotes casual TEAM gameplay in otherwise unaccessible areas.

Want a challenge? take it to HM DoA. Drop Ursan. do something that isn't 600hp or trapper farming.

If the mindless 123 123 spam is what bugs you about it, take a trip to RA and TA and see how many Sins you encounter doing exactly the same thing without UB...

I'm sure others have mentioned it before, the skill bar you carry isn't everything. Knowing the layout of the instance, the spawns and what they contain, pros n cons of your builds. it all needs to be taken into consideration.

Yes, It's made elite areas easier. Throwing down Urgoz's warren in an hour or less for example. but that only comes with experience of play.
I wouldn't expect a team of freshers, to be able to grab the skills they need for the build and just run it.

lishi

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobalt
Aren't we heading down this path anyway?

With skills being nerft every time we turn around which in turn is narrowing and narrowing our choices and limiting our builds. the goal of skill nerf is to render a very effective skill less effective so people will try other build.

Think about that.

You have.

build a -> work extremely well.
Build b -> work well
build c -> work well
build d -> work well
build e -> work well
build f -> dont work.

Now basicly everone will play the build a becouse of it superiority.

But if the build a get nerfed to work well then b,c,d,e,f will be a valueble choise.
Thus actually the build variety incleased.

lishi

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
This thread, like many many before it is really not about any one skill in particular but in the need for some people to control how others play the game.

Pugs demand someone runs a build that they can't or won't and people start to complain its the skills fault.

The easiest means of vanquishing many maps could be to take a party of 5 MM's a tank and 2 monks, but people do not demand this because they know its not practical.

The only reason people are asking for Ursan Blessing is because they know its very likely that most players know have the skill if they have access to it.

If this skill was only useable for wars would people demand that every party member choose war as thier secondary proff?

The only time Ursan Blessing becomes over powered is when half or all of the party members use it. This is true of many elites and non elites skills.

8 players using Obsidian Flame can deal massive dmg quickly and easily but we don't see a cry for every player to use this because people refuse to have thier skill bars dictated to them at every turn.

Take a single player with ursan blessing and 7 hench out and see if it totaly overpowers foes on hard mode, I think you all know the answer. 8 obsidian flame dont work at all,

you will be able to kill a foe immediatly but after that you will have to wait 5 more second to kill another one while the mobs are attacking.

Then you will have to stop to heal, witch mean you will have to delay more second for the next kill.

And after 2-3 kill any caster who is not a ele will encounter exhaustion probrem.

Even if you manage to survive the first group you will have to wait 2-3 minute to wear off exhaustion .

Basicly 8 monk wanding a target to dead is more efficent.

Crom The Pale

Crom The Pale

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

Ageis Ascending

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by lishi
8 obsidian flame dont work at all,

you will be able to kill a foe immediatly but after that you will have to wait 5 more second to kill another one while the mobs are attacking.

Then you will have to stop to heal, witch mean you will have to delay more second for the next kill.

And after 2-3 kill any caster who is not a ele will encounter exhaustion probrem.

Even if you manage to survive the first group you will have to wait 2-3 minute to wear off exhaustion .

Basicly 8 monk wanding a target to dead is more efficent.
Actually no it does work, people ran Obsidian Flame spike builds in GvG for almost 2years because it works. It does take a lot of teamwork and skill to run it effectively.

Keep in mind if your running high earth for OF then you've got Armor of Earth and can use a glyph to deal with energy. Only 4-6 party members really need the skill as it will reduce most all monsters to barely a sliver of life left which can be taken out with some other skill like Stone Daggers or Ash Blast.

My whole point is that any skill when used by multiple people as a spike is powerfull and takes team work to pull off.

As has been stated before isn't team work what people want in PvE??

lishi

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
Actually no it does work, people ran Obsidian Flame spike builds in GvG for almost 2years because it works. It does take a lot of teamwork and skill to run it effectively.

Keep in mind if your running high earth for OF then you've got Armor of Earth and can use a glyph to deal with energy. Only 4-6 party members really need the skill as it will reduce most all monsters to barely a sliver of life left which can be taken out with some other skill like Stone Daggers or Ash Blast.

My whole point is that any skill when used by multiple people as a spike is powerfull and takes team work to pull off.

As has been stated before isn't team work what people want in PvE?? People runned that because it worked and it was easy in a pvp contest to play.

But not many runned it and very few run it now because dont work well.

You have to wait after ever encounter for exhaustion to wear off(yes, even with the glyph you still have to wait plenty of time), in hard mode most of mobs will stay alive even after 5-6 obsidian flesh and if they have a monk they will heal up. etc etc etc.

People dont run it in pve for a reason

Atra Culpa

Atra Culpa

Academy Page

Join Date: Jul 2007

Manchester, England

Servants Of Fortuna [SOF]

N/

I think we, in one sense or another, are all in agreement that UB is overpowered.
(those of you who don't think so, face facts. it's imba)

However, i don't see why this should call for a nerf. To be honest it's allowing casual players to join in on runs that usually take hours to complete in places they'd normally not even get a party going simply because the dominant build of the time doesn't allow for their toon class. (Granted, not all teams do it, but the vast majority do and those who don't are usually filled with guild and alliance members).

If the fact that Ursan is too overpowered for you, annoys you, then just don't use it. It really is that simple. Ignore it's existence and continue playing the builds you want to. That's generally what individualism is all about, doing things you want to do how you want to do them.

Yeah, certain things work better than others and it's a fact of life that people will try to cut corners to get to where they want to as quickly as possible.
Just look at the amount of people wanting runs to Droknar's Forge and then once there, want to be power leveld. It's why get rich quick schemes are so proliferant.

If it is to be nerfed then hopefully not to the point where it's broken and useless.
I suspect though that the other aspects will likely have to follow suit as they're all unbalanced in a sense. Just happens that the bear got the bigger slice of the imba cake.

Doodle123

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2006

CCCP

Me/E

theres one aspect that every single one of you seems to have neglected to mention, the cost of UB on the economy of the game, which many people do enjoy being a part of. I left the game before nightfall came out and only recently got nightfall and gwen, and all i can say is wow. In factions in the elite areas, it took almost a year for prices to fall for most elite items, now with gwen being out for what? 3 months only, everything is already sub 100k.

With the Addition of the Hall of Monuments potentially unlocking stuff for people in guild wars 2, there is massive incentive to have money for armour and minipets, and as minipets become dedicated to more and more people the value will inherantly increase on any undedicated ones.

My real point is that ursan is making everything that is rewarding in the game become obsolete, when you can do any elite run in the game in half the time with 6 ursan +2 monks, then of course elite items become more commonplace and drive the price down, which of course makes the elite items not elite anymore because anyone with 5k in their pocket can buy it. One of the reasons i left guildwars before nightfall was because there lacked incentives to actually do more in the game, i get titles that give no bonuses? weapons that are exactly the same as another skinned weapon that costs 1/20th the price, all armour being the same too. What is their to work towards in the game? the only thing i could see was minipets, and as their prices are only going upwards because their will only be less and less of them, whereas prices for weapons are only going downwards, and quickly because of how easy it now is to get them, how are we ever supposed to get the more expensive pets?

My problem with guildwars always has been that it tried to make it so that everyone could have good stuff (unlike in WOW, which made it silly because you had to be an uber nerd ot get anything decent) to the point where someone who plays for an hour a day can have everything someone who plays 4 hours a day can have. I dont know about you guys, but i do enjoy the feeling that im working towards something (and no farming the same spot over and over again for a title that gives me nothing doesnt count) and if anything, ursan is destroying that. Already now you cant do the best elite area in the game (DOA) without being ursan, because everyone can see that ursan is twice as fast and easy as any other build.

Im not even sure where this rant is going, all i know is that ursan is making elites not elite anymore, and it will destroy the economy faster and faster until everything but minipets is basically worthless in comparison.

cheers,
Adrian

trobinson97

trobinson97

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Guildless :(

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodle123
theres one aspect that every single one of you seems to have neglected to mention, the cost of UB on the economy of the game, which many people do enjoy being a part of. I left the game before nightfall came out and only recently got nightfall and gwen, and all i can say is wow. In factions in the elite areas, it took almost a year for prices to fall for most elite items, now with gwen being out for what? 3 months only, everything is already sub 100k.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trobinson97, a few pages back Or maybe it's because as more people complete the mission, the prices of those precious tormented relics will drop, and you won't be able to sell you gem sets and armbraces and tormented shields for so much. After all, if I have to be a loser in real life at least let me be a rich loser in Guild Wars. It's not something that damages the game, lower prices on items are ALWAYS a good thing no matter what the gold hoarders say. Pugging is ALWAYS a good thing no matter what the H+Hrs (myself included) say. It seems like "Ursanway" as you guys like to put it is contributing to one and will contribute to the other.
It's been a long thread, so it's easy to skip some things and then say they weren't there.


Quote:
With the Addition of the Hall of Monuments potentially unlocking stuff for people in guild wars 2, there is massive incentive to have money for armour and minipets, and as minipets become dedicated to more and more people the value will inherantly increase on any undedicated ones. Ok, so what's the problem you seem to have here, prices getting lower or prices getting higher? Or is it the type of items that are getting higher and lower. In your first paragraph it sounds like you are complaining that prices are getting lower, but yet in this one, you seem to be claiming that prices are getting higher because of minipets.

Quote: My real point is that ursan is making everything that is rewarding in the game become obsolete, when you can do any elite run in the game in half the time with 6 ursan +2 monks, then of course elite items become more commonplace and drive the price down, which of course makes the elite items not elite anymore because anyone with 5k in their pocket can buy it. Prove where UB has made any item reward obsolete. As of yet, nothing considered "elite" has fluctuated in price. Armbraces are still around 100+30++, same with tormenteds. I do look forward to the day when they are sub 100 though I doubt it will happen anytime soon. You guys are making a really big ruckus about UB but the fact of the matter is, it's not very common. Yeah you'll see it around but it's no where near the level some of you seem to propagate. I've been in DoA at peak times EST almost every day since last week and I see more non UB things going on that UB, mainly just a few 600 and Trap farmers.

Low prices on items are not a bad thing in any case. It's a great thing. For one, it cuts down on a lot of those ridiculous 100 +___duped ectos (oh yeah, you better believe they were duped too lol). Without those, you're likely to see a lot less ebayers. So someone has the same precious Tormented Shield as you, boo hoo. Thanks to that wii site for builds, everyone can be a "pro farmer". It takes little longer to build up bank than it did before loot scaling, but it's not all that bad. Somehow I still manage to get whatever armor I want outside of FoW whenever I want it.

Quote: One of the reasons i left guildwars before nightfall was because there lacked incentives to actually do more in the game, i get titles that give no bonuses? Plenty titles give bonuses now, welcome back.

Quote:
weapons that are exactly the same as another skinned weapon that costs 1/20th the price, all armour being the same too. What is their to work towards in the game? the only thing i could see was minipets, and as their prices are only going upwards because their will only be less and less of them, whereas prices for weapons are only going downwards, and quickly because of how easy it now is to get them, how are we ever supposed to get the more expensive pets? Ahhh, now I see the resolution of the problem I had with your first two paragraphs. You need to sell the tormented stuff high so you can buy mini pets high. Well, that's easy, the UW still exists so you can always get ecto and you can still get cash from farming and selling to merchant. So you may have to work a little bit, but isn't that the point anti-UB folks have trying to make, put some effort into it? Chances are though, if you're talking about those uber rare minipets like Kanxai and the Panda, well don't fret, those weren't meant for the majority of the people anway. If you weren't in on the duping craze and managed to slip by Anet's multi0ban, chances are you wouldn't be able to afford them anyway. The rest (majority anyway) are pretty doable. Besides, this UB craze has still yet to catch on as it's been stated so tormented stuff is still in excess of 100k. You can still make some moeny and hoard it away for your future cheap mini purchases.



Quote:
My problem with guildwars always has been that it tried to make it so that everyone could have good stuff (unlike in WOW, which made it silly because you had to be an uber nerd ot get anything decent) to the point where someone who plays for an hour a day can have everything someone who plays 4 hours a day can have. I dont know about you guys, but i do enjoy the feeling that im working towards something (and no farming the same spot over and over again for a title that gives me nothing doesnt count) and if anything, ursan is destroying that. If Guild Wars has, as you say, ALWAYS tried to make it so you could have something in one hour that another gets in four, how is UB destroying the feeling that you are working towards something? You just said that your problem with Guild Wars has been that you didn't feel like you were working towards anything because other people could do it in less time. You guys spend way too much worrying about what other people are doing.


Quote:
Already now you cant do the best elite area in the game (DOA) without being ursan, because everyone can see that ursan is twice as fast and easy as any other build. Back that up with some PROOF, because right now you are blatantly spouting lies. There is no elite area in the game where you can't get without UB.

Quote:
Im not even sure where this rant is going, all i know is that ursan is making elites not elite anymore, and it will destroy the economy faster and faster until everything but minipets is basically worthless in comparison. I'm not sure either. All I know is Ursan doesn't change any other elite whatsoever, the economy is not being destroyed, and minipets were always worthless (sentimental value aside).


Quote:
cheers,
Adrian Cheers Adrian

Jeremy Untouchable

Jeremy Untouchable

Wow Stole my freetime

Join Date: Mar 2006

Arkansas

None

W/E

"I'm a freaking bear, i should be strong"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
Your saying its only overpowered if a war uses it?

How about an ele or mesmer or necromancer, none of those hexes would stop them?

You still have to attack while in UB to keep your energy up unless your tanking so Clumsyness is still a factor. Claiming that it can be avoided by stoping your attack is pointless since that is true regardless of UB. How is using UB any differnt than taking a war/monk and some hex/condition removal?

Claiming that the lack of healing is not worth concidering is also a false statement. Reliance on other team members is called for when using UB, and that is a good thing. Ursan blessing give a war a few more seconds of life, no more so than Defy Pain does and with 0 means of self healing.

The dmg output of ursan blessing has been proven less effective than a dragonslash war build. Added to that you can not inflict deepwound or bleeding or cripple.

This is an Elite PvE ONLY skill, it is suposed to be powerfull, even more so than any other pve only skill.

The other elite blessings are equally powerfull, but not as practical or as easy to use for most people so nobody is asking for thier nerfing.

Leave PvE skills alone, if you want balanced play go PvP, don't complain that a skill that gives us a chance vs a mob wielding monster only skills is making the game unplayable for you.
QFT its real nice to counter monster only skills with. Blah... Just play guys, if you dont like it then dont use it..Heres a post from a guy using ursan and having a hard time beating a dungeon. And he is from a very good guild. i bet he knows how to play..http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10215834 even with one ursan he is having trouble...XD we have threads saying its to strong, and threads saying even with it areas arent H/H able....hmm "me thinks thou dost protest to much"



I am able to get Thommis, Stormweaver, and Salvetarm with Hero/Henchie builds without much trouble.

Forgewight is another story altogether. I am currently using me (W/Me Ursan Semitank), a variation of Sabs 3 necro hero build, 2 monk henchies, Zho, and Herta. With VERY careful pulling and motion tanking, I am able to finish it without any party wipes. I think Cynn may be better than Herta. Some of the battles with the summit dwarves can last a LONG time, with me praying that their energy runs out first. But the 3 necros really help with the energy problem. I like to use Well of the Profane to breakup the Summit's general prot spirit/spirit bond damage reducing build.

Does anyone have any other 1 player builds for Forgewight?

lishi

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

People should understand in a Online game the concept you dont like the feature because it make the game cheap dont use it dont work.

To show you i will make a example of this concept taken to the limit.

Lets say anet tomorrow make 2 skill.

Skill A : Summon 10000 gold from nothing and add to your inventory.
Skill B : Kill everthing on your randar.

People can choose to not use them, so why dont keep them?

This is not a sigle player game, where a overpowered thing wont affect anyone but you.(guess why there are no cheat in the game?)

Even a instanced game like gw you still have a market system where you meet with other people.( and there are other stuff too, like the value of certain title track.)

trobinson97

trobinson97

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Guildless :(

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by lishi
People should understand in a Online game the concept you dont like the feature because it make the game cheap dont use it dont work.

To show you i will make a example of this concept taken to the limit.

Lets say anet tomorrow make 2 skill.

Skill A : Summon 10000 gold from nothing and add to your inventory.
Skill B : Kill everthing on your randar.

People can choose to not use them, so why dont keep them? Neither of those are skills in the game so why would we discuss that? Let's keep it to what's actually in the game please.

Keifru

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2007

[Meep] Biscuit of Dewm

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by lishi
Skill B : Kill everthing on your randar. I would be interested if you would care to explain this 'randar'. It may have game-shattering effects.

Anyway, I like ursan because now I can do DoA without having to run some bullox cookie build. However, making ursan strike an attack skill would make a heckuva lot more sense.

yesitsrob

yesitsrob

Elite Guru

Join Date: Sep 2005

Manchester, England

SMS/Victrix

Quote:
Anyway, I like ursan because now I can do DoA without having to run some bullox cookie build. Because Ursan isn't some bullox cookie build and because you actually do have to run cookie cutter builds in the first place? C/D

Doodle123

Academy Page

Join Date: Aug 2006

CCCP

Me/E

ill try to respond to everything you said, and as you can see my post was a bit rushed. but i still disagree with the general idea posed in most responses here. the fact is that what other people do DOES effect me, the fact that sure you can FARM DOA as trappers or 600s, but noone but ursan does any quests to actually win them. i want to get me a tormented item and i cant because the NPC that sells armbraces is only available to those who have completed any of the lord quests and i cant complete any of them because ursan owns it.

lets put it this way. name one elite in the game where a nuker cant get a group? ill tell you right now that there isnt any but DOA because they have no need, ursan destroys any build. the problem with ursan is that its not close to as good as most builds, its that it basically is MUCH better then any build out there. people talk about how having 6 searing flames nukers would do as much damage, perhaps yes, but we definitely wouldnt survive long enough to deal it. there is no group build out there that is just 6 of everything plus 2 monks and you can do any mission. its always been about a balanced group, and ursan is removing that balance. now people are farming faster, and prices are dropping (dont believe me go look at price of titan gems, dropped 2 k in the last few days becuase of how easy it is to farm everything) thats 20% loss on value to someone who is trying to get money for HOM (no i dont mean panda, but i do mean some of the better ones that cost lets say 80 ectos) how the hell can i get 80 ectos if i cant even FARM the only area with anything +100k in it anymore, let alone the fact that its being overfarmed now because a baby could do it with ursan.

the fact remains that there is a few simple concepts being applied here. what other gamers do does effect me because it effects my ability to generate money which in turn effects my ability to get my heros in HOM (due to paying for armour) or my minipets (due to them inherantly going up in value as they become dedicated) to even my own armour sets (how do i pay for dwarven armour?) because i cant do any farming because ursan is just plain superior by FAR to any build out there. you guys say that people do DOA all the time without ursan but just go there and see what build people are using that isnt for just FARMING it, but actually completing it? none but ursan. i hve had access to DOA for 4 days now and havent even gone on a single run in any location do to ursan. since when was it Anet policy to completely stop a player from being able to do an area because of a lack of a single skill.

like in any market be it items or people, people will do what is most efficient and best. and right now in DOA ursan is the best and most efficient, so if your not ursan or a monk, then GL getting aparty together to do anything.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Guild Wars was designed with balance between skills in mind. This means all skills are meant to be balanced.

PvE skills by nature are imbalanced, requiring restrictions, and are thus a deviation from the original idea. Playing with PvE skills is hardly even playing a game anymore, it's point and click for epic lulzpve. A tactic for winning an area shouldn't be adding more powerful skills, it should be playing better. Elite areas, especially, should be an incentive to make players learn to play better.

Removing all PvE skills would be a good thing.

trobinson97

trobinson97

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Guildless :(

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodle123
ill try to respond to everything you said, and as you can see my post was a bit rushed. but i still disagree with the general idea posed in most responses here. the fact is that what other people do DOES effect me, the fact that sure you can FARM DOA as trappers or 600s, but noone but ursan does any quests to actually win them. i want to get me a tormented item and i cant because the NPC that sells armbraces is only available to those who have completed any of the lord quests and i cant complete any of them because ursan owns it.
Come on man, where are you getting this info? You can't complete any DoA quests because Ursan owns it? Does that really make sense to you? Ursan has_not_taken over any area. Just because people CAN complete it with Ursan does not mean everyone IS. Ursan isn't stopping you from getting a group, so let's kill noise right now. Ursan still doesn't affect how you play in your own instance, should you choose to not play it.

Quote:
lets put it this way. name one elite in the game where a nuker cant get a group? ill tell you right now that there isnt any but DOA because they have no need, ursan destroys any build. the problem with ursan is that its not close to as good as most builds, its that it basically is MUCH better then any build out there. people talk about how having 6 searing flames nukers would do as much damage, perhaps yes, but we definitely wouldnt survive long enough to deal it.
Again, where have you gotten your info man? Eles can still get in DoA lol. You're killing me right now. Surely you don't believe that stuff. Show some proof where no eles can get into DoA and it's all the fault of Ursan blessing.

Quote:
there is no group build out there that is just 6 of everything plus 2 monks and you can do any mission.
I'm willing to submit a group of Paragons and monks could. I've seen where 12 warriors did the Deep, so where's the balance there, and where is the outcry?

Quote:
its always been about a balanced group,
Again, no it hasn't. Traditionally it's been all about the Trinity and that's not balanced.

Quote:
and ursan is removing that balance.
Proof? You still have the choice to run what you will.

Quote: now people are farming faster, and prices are dropping (dont believe me go look at price of titan gems, dropped 2 k in the last few days becuase of how easy it is to farm everything) thats 20% loss on value to someone who is trying to get money for HOM How is farming faster a bad thing? If you're farming faster you're probably making money faster, either by selling to players or merching, so what's the big deal?

Quote: (no i dont mean panda, but i do mean some of the better ones that cost lets say 80 ectos) how the hell can i get 80 ectos if i cant even FARM the only area with anything +100k in it anymore, let alone the fact that its being overfarmed now because a baby could do it with ursan. A baby could go into Underworld and farm ectos with 55/33, Rits, Warriors or groups. A baby oculd spec as B/P and farm ectos in Tombs. Your argument is lacking, ectos haven't gone anywhere, you get them the same way you've always gotten them: farm them or farm other stuff, merch and buy from people.

Quote: the fact remains that there is a few simple concepts being applied here. What are the factual few simple concepts being applied here?

Quote:
what other gamers do does effect me because it effects my ability to generate money which in turn effects my ability to get my heros in HOM (due to paying for armour) or my minipets (due to them inherantly going up in value as they become dedicated) to even my own armour sets (how do i pay for dwarven armour?) Wow man, woe is you. If you are worried about prices fluctuating you are aiming your frustrations at the wrong thing. That's what happens in a player driven economy, prices change. You get your hero armor by doing the quests to get them to drop. If you want to pay for it, you farm for the cash like everyone else. If you have to farm that green a few more times to get the money nothing has changed, you're still farming to get the money. You pay for your Dwarven armor the same way you always have, with gold and materials that you bought/collected by playing the game, whether it was playing through or farming. That's how the system works man.

[quote]because i cant do any farming because ursan is just plain superior by FAR to any build out there. [quote]

That's so utterly ridiculous. You can't farm because Ursan exists? How in the world does someone farming in one instance determine how you farm in another? Wow.

Quote:
you guys say that people do DOA all the time without ursan but just go there and see what build people are using that isnt for just FARMING it, but actually completing it? none but ursan. I've gone almost every night and while some Ursan groups have shown up, it's not taking over. The districts are still largely empty and people are still capable of completing the quests without DoA. If you can't find a group to do it non Ursan, contact Racthoh and some of the other mature guys from SMS, I'm sure they'd be willing to help you out. There's also the option of using your friends list, guild, and alliance. Ursan doesn't stop you from playing the way you want to play.

Quote:
i hve had access to DOA for 4 days now and havent even gone on a single run in any location do to ursan. It's not because of Ursan, could be because you're new. Most likely it's because no one really does DoA except to do the farms. Since last week, I've only seen 2 people specifically asking to go Ursan, and the rest were farming. It's been that way a long time before Ursan my friend. Since you are just getting there 4 days ago, you wouldn't have known. Most groups that do the quests are guild/alliance/friend type groups, you should look into them.

Quote:
since when was it Anet policy to completely stop a player from being able to do an area because of a lack of a single skill. Hmm, never, and it still isn't. You're just over exaggerating.

Quote:
like in any market be it items or people, people will do what is most efficient and best. That's pretty smart of people.

Quote:
and right now in DOA ursan is the best and most efficient, so if your not ursan or a monk, then GL getting aparty together to do anything. Says you, the guy who has only been in DoA for 4 days and has yet to complete a quest. How do you know what's the most efficient when you haven't run any of them?!

BenjZee

BenjZee

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

The Overacheivers [Club]

Mo/

im all in favour of ursen even though i don't have gw:en.
Im scared though because i beleve Gaile said somerthing about skill updates. Ursen blessing maybe? Sab's build?

lishi

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by trobinson97
Neither of those are skills in the game so why would we discuss that? Let's keep it to what's actually in the game please.
The point was demonstrate the justification "if you dont like it dont use it" cleary dont work in guild wars.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keifru
I would be interested if you would care to explain this 'randar'. It may have game-shattering effects. Im sure you are smart enough to figure it out my error in spelling.

bungusmaximus

bungusmaximus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guild Of Handicrafted Products [MaSS]

W/Mo



Nurf me....if you dare!

Sweet Mystery

Sweet Mystery

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Shadow Hunters Of Light [SHOL]

R/

Lol... you gotta love it.... people want more skills to play with, they come along and then people moan like hell about a skill. Wonder which will be next on the PvE skills to nerf... am I overpowered as I take a L20 Mursaat or Djinn along too, as its an extra party member free of charge dealing damage?

When it comes down to it, NO ONE can tell others what to play and people will play what they want to play. I choose my build, which does not use UB. Some instances I may chose to load it on my skill bar... most of the time I won't. That is my choice.

If you don't like the skill don't use it, stop crying out to stop others who obviously like the skill and use it by this "bullying" mentality to get a skill nerfed.

That is what I see going on, a small minority of players in the vast millions who play the game calling out to nerf a skill because they don't like it. Simply "bullying" by all accounts.

As to the economy.... many people forget all these other additions to the GW world, Russia came online, most of Eastern Europe have their own districts, more Asian countries coming online. We know that many of them farm and farm and farm... you really think they are all using Ursanway to farm all this and bring prices down? I think not....

bungusmaximus

bungusmaximus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2006

Guild Of Handicrafted Products [MaSS]

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Mystery
Lol... you gotta love it.... people want more skills to play with, they come along and then people moan like hell about a skill. Wonder which will be next on the PvE skills to nerf... am I overpowered as I take a L20 Mursaat or Djinn along too, as its an extra party member free of charge dealing damage?
This game was always advertised as skill > time invested. It's what makes it special and people like it that way. If you have to handicap yourself to get a challenge out of a game there's something wrong. Like boxing against a toddler with 1 hand tied on your back.
Quote: Originally Posted by Sweet Mystery When it comes down to it, NO ONE can tell others what to play and people will play what they want to play. I choose my build, which does not use UB. Some instances I may chose to load it on my skill bar... most of the time I won't. That is my choice. Anet can as a matter of fact, see previous PvP related nerfs in the past. Anet listens to people that know a lot about/care about the game, a lot of those people tend to post on forums. Better to listen to them then to people that never play GW, the other alternative is not listening to feedback at all, which is WAY worse then the current situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Mystery
If you don't like the skill don't use it, stop crying out to stop others who obviously like the skill and use it by this "bullying" mentality to get a skill nerfed. If I would be a bully I would most probably flame you now, which I don't do. I, indeed, don't use UB, I find it to be unfun. People say the things they say because they acknowledge the difference between a good game and a lame game, not because they want to refrain others from having fun, or didn't you peole have fun before UB?

zwei2stein

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
Removing all PvE skills would be a good thing. Amen, brother.

ender6

ender6

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2006

Mo/

No need to flame/or cry...

UB will be nerfed as it should.

As Avarre said the biggest mistake ANet made was introducing PvE only skills. The introduction of such skills underminds the gaming concept of GW. What set this game apart from others within its genre was the use of skills and balance. Hopefully ANet has learned its lesson(s) and it will show when GW2 is released.

Trub

Trub

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sitting in the guildhall, watching the wallows frolic.

Trinity of the ascended [SMS]+[Koss]+[TAM]=[ToA]

Quote:
If I would be a bully I would most probably flame you now, which I don't do. I, indeed, don't use UB, I find it to be unfun. People say the things they say because they acknowledge the difference between a good game and a lame game, not because they want to refrain others from having fun, or didn't you peole have fun before UB? Thank you.
I couldn't have said it better.
_____________
Rit LFG DoA....I AM A RITUALISTS, NOT A BEAR!!

Crom The Pale

Crom The Pale

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

Ageis Ascending

W/

There is no balance in PvE, how can there be with monster only skills??

UB gives some people a choice they never had before.

Now some of the less skilled players get a chance to play in an elite zone and might actually win. This does not mean no other build can be used. You are always able to run any build you want as long as you have guildmebers or can find a pug that will let you.

Now were back to what will pugs allow other people to play, which has been around since the very begining of GW. This skill is just the lates example of how people are arogently dictating how others must play this game.

Remove UB or all PvE only skills from GW and you will still have people telling others what skills are and are not acceptable in THIER party.





The problem lies not with the game but with ourselves!

GloryFox

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

Quote:
Skill A : Summon 10000 gold from nothing and add to your inventory.
Skill B : Kill everthing on your randar. Ever seen the the full power of the original EoE?

You could clear a map in a matter of seconds. It was only nerfed because of PvP, due to Alliance Battle balance problems (Suicide Necro Squads FTW! ). It was never balanced because of its overwhelming power and ability to instantly kill everything on your radar, then hand you 1000's of gold from nothing into your inventory.

Just a bit of historical reference.

DivineEnvoy

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2005

Me/P

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungusmaximus
This game was always advertised as skill > time invested. It's what makes it special and people like it that way. If you have to handicap yourself to get a challenge out of a game there's something wrong. Like boxing against a toddler with 1 hand tied on your back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me on post 209 Advertisement is a way to raise sales for a certain product. Buyers do not have to follow the exact way the product is introduced to make use of the product. People are humans, not robots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bungusmaximus
Anet can as a matter of fact, see previous PvP related nerfs in the past. Anet listens to people that know a lot about/care about the game, a lot of those people tend to post on forums. Better to listen to them then to people that never play GW, the other alternative is not listening to feedback at all, which is WAY worse then the current situation. As you said it yourself, they are PVP nerfs. We are talking about PVE here, which is different than PVP. So what if a player decides to make a free forum account and posts on a forum? That action is so easy even a caveman can do it. Posting on a forum is not a big deal; however, if the idea is valid, we should listen to it. If you ever bothered to read through the thread, most of us are in favor of keeping Ursan Blessing the way it is, and some of us did provide strong and valid reasons, which you are lack of.

This is getting no where. Most of us just continue to post valid reasons against the arguement of nerfing Ursan Blessing; yet they are continue to be ignored. Reason is not that our posts are lacking of intelligent or anything, they are simply the truth, which some of these people are unable to handle. Sounds similar to real life, doesn't it? Ursan Blessing is crushing the pride of these people who use Guild Wars as an escape factor from reality, and that is a problem: go see a doctor.

trobinson97

trobinson97

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

Guildless :(

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by lishi
The point was demonstrate the justification "if you dont like it dont use it" cleary dont work in guild wars.


How does it "clearly" not work, when those skills clearly don't exist? There are skills I don't like, so I don't use them, so clearly the argument of "if you don't like it, don't use it" does work in Guild Wars. There people in this thread who've said they don't like/use UB so clearly it works. It's just that most of them choose to go one step further and say, "I don't like it or use it, and I want it nerfed for you."

Sweet Mystery

Sweet Mystery

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Shadow Hunters Of Light [SHOL]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by trobinson97
It's just that most of them choose to go one step further and say, "I don't like it or use it, and I want it nerfed for you." Precisely. People want to spoil what others do in the game. People don't care on what other people like to use, people who have every right to use a skill they want to use.

As stated I don't use UB, but I am not going to turn round and tell Anet to nerf it because some people are using it for a purpose that seems to work for them.

Let people use what they want and live with it. Don't like it, then ignore the skill. It isn't going to creep up from the shadows and shout "Boo!" at you is it? Just how is that skill being in existence affecting people directly? Not at all. If really really annoyed at PvE skills coming in to help PvE players, go play WoW...

angmar_nite

angmar_nite

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2007

[SNOW] of [YUM]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
Now some of the less skilled players get a chance to play in an elite zone and might actually win! Elite zone = bane of less skilled players.

Or at least it should be. If it was able to be done by someone with little skill, it's hardly elite.

Look at the Steel Wall in the deep. Sure if EVERYONE is experienced it works like a nice well oiled machine. But if a tank pulls poorly? If the necro can't gaze the fleshies well? If the players are undisciplined? Falls apart fast.

It's cookie cutter and trinity yes. Skill less? no

On the other hand with RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin URSAN BLITZ! Just keep tapping the attack
buttons!

And when a skill becomes to powerful boycotting it only hurts the experience for YOU! You won't get accepted into pugs or even guild groups! It'll take the online out of MMO as much as any hero could.