*Grabs a torch and gathers an angry mob to hunt Izzy*
horns was perfectly balanced skill, with a reasonable condition to meet.
i could see how trampling ox was a bit too strong and always thought it should do about the same dmg as hoto.
now hoto is pure garbage making most reasonable builds useless to lack of damage.
i say its a bit better than [skill]jagged strike[/skill]
BRING HOTO BACK!!! and buff trampling ox by about 5-8 dmg more!
Update: 13 Nov. 07
zknifeh
Sekkira
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fates Monk
So...someone/team comes along with a unique build that catches your "balanced" team off guard and wins a few times and you dont want it nerfed?
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There's a huge difference between bringing protective spirit to counter large single attack damage and bringing shields up to counter the damage from ranger spike.
Full Metal X
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fates Monk
Pet corpses, which have been in the game since the beginning, are now stupidly overpowered?
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Shadowfox1125
Next update. Player corpses aren't exploitable. =P
Sins were hit hard either way you look at it. SP sins are dead, thank god. But, Impale got hit by the nerf bat.. I loved Impale.
I used EW for Destroyer Core farming. Well I guess I can still farm, but less efficiently.
Sins were hit hard either way you look at it. SP sins are dead, thank god. But, Impale got hit by the nerf bat.. I loved Impale.
I used EW for Destroyer Core farming. Well I guess I can still farm, but less efficiently.
Fates
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Full Metal X
They could cause problems in spirit/heroway in which the thumpers pets died and the necro made minions from them, giving the other 3-4 necros in the team infinite energy and super powering barbs.
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Shadowmoon
Quote:
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Originally Posted by øln
Did exploitable player pet corpses make that big of a difference in PvE?
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Orinn
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
That's exactly what PvPers don't want. Which is where the call for nerfs come from. Don't any of you pay attention?
|
A resilient metagame is full of options. Some are stronger than others, some are incredibly strong against certain things and weak against others. By constantly asking the developers to promote the 2-warrior, 2-monk, 1-ranger, 1-mesmer, 1 runner, 1-other build, to favor it above anything that can beat it, PvP players are killing any hope of a vital and resilient metagame, and they don't even understand that they are doing it. When every team starts to look the exact same, when all the gimmicks are dead and am completely standard, stale, and stagnant metagame consisting of only balanced teams comes about, PvP players will be left wondering... how did this happen.
And not one of them will blame themselves for helping to kill off any semblance of a resilient metagame. I fully expect that the really top-level PvP players will see this coming months and months in advance, and will simply, quietly, leave. A stale metagame environment is the only possible outcome if things continue the way they are going: a cycle of nerfcalling and capitulation that seems to actually be accelerating. more and more skills are put up for nerfs by the community every day. Good arguments are made, but they alll assume that balanced builds should have a chance to beat everything, and that underlying assumption will be the thing that eventually kills PvP.
B/P_Ranger
The more I think of it.. I am so tired of this game and its freaking elitist attitude... a casual player like me isn't allowed to play I suppose, because I dont want to build another character, because I don't want to discover another build...you have effectively screwed me out of playing the game. There is no need for my build.
Maybe I should just give up on my favorite type of games Diablo 2 GW and go to some shooter game like Halo that isn't nerfing their players every time they turn the f around
Maybe I should just give up on my favorite type of games Diablo 2 GW and go to some shooter game like Halo that isn't nerfing their players every time they turn the f around
Full Metal X
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fates Monk
and this is new, or even common?
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AKA Infinite energy is baaaed
Spike
If anef keep going like this, thier won't be enough people left playing to pay for the server upkeep.
Lhim
Quote:
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Originally Posted by aaje vhanli
It seems to me the more they try to "balance" Guild Wars the more imbalanced it gets... -_-;;
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Fates
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Orinn
I try, I really do, but I have to agree that calling for nerfs on the forums to anything that actually beats "balanced" on a regular basis, has become second nature to a lot of people. Adaptation is not necessary, just throw around around catchphrases like "degenerate gameplay" and "bad for the game" if it beats balanced, and keep insisting that the devs nerf it. Eventually, the devs cave, repeat until "metagame" means nothing more than "what flavor of balanced do we want to run today?"
A resilient metagame is full of options. Some are stronger than others, some are incredibly strong against certain things and weak against others. By constantly asking the developers to promote the 2-warrior, 2-monk, 1-ranger, 1-mesmer, 1 runner, 1-other build, to favor it above anything that can beat it, PvP players are killing any hope of a vital and resilient metagame, and they don't even understand that they are doing it. When every team starts to look the exact same, when all the gimmicks are dead and am completely standard, stale, and stagnant metagame consisting of only balanced teams comes about, PvP players will be left wondering... how did this happen. And not one of them will blame themselves for helping to kill off any semblance of a resilient metagame. I fully expect that the really top-level PvP players will see this coming months and months in advance, and will simply, quietly, leave. A stale metagame environment is the only possible outcome if things continue the way they are going: a cycle of nerfcalling and capitulation that seems to actually be accelerating. more and more skills are put up for nerfs by the community every day. Good arguments are made, but they alll assume that balanced builds should have a chance to beat everything, and that underlying assumption will be the thing that eventually kills PvP. |
raddaman
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ensoriki
Stop talking, please.
HoTO has been a good Assassin skill for so long its not funny. HotO was not imbalanced before Nightfall, it was not imbalanced AFTER nightfall. Horns required an off hand, most duals do. However consider horns effect, it was not high damage , but you got a knock down. Before Nightfall this and Iron palm were really the Only assassin skills to activate Falling spider, the other 1 being Mark of instability, but its 20 second recharge made it undesirable...at the time. hoTO was just a skill, not under powered, not Imbalanced. it was just a skill. Saying it needs skill to play? There are BUILDS that should require skills to play. And then there are just skills. Some skills should, some it does not matter. hoTO is just like entangling asp, How can you say its over powered? Entangling is only good due to paradox. HoTO has gone from a decent skill (that people did not take ALL the time, because it was a skill that was viable sometimes and sometimes not) to shit. Think of the warrior skills that do Horns job (knockdown + damage) if horns was turned into a warrior skill right now...they probably wouldn't even take it (hammer warrior) because its shit right now. Especially on a class that would use it a lot more if Balance was to arise. Horns....you stayed good through good times bad times....and now they killed you. |
You have me confused, as the only nerf was damage, but you say the only reason to take it is the knockdown.
Out of the only well-known bar where it wasn't necessary was SP. You need the deep wound, and your bar is already small. Twisting fangs was the only Deep wound skill, and no need for a 6 skill combo. When Impale got the deep wound boost, there was no reason to use twisting fangs (plus the fact that imaple needs only 5e down cost). You have your cake and eat it too with a knockdown, high damage, and room for an IAS. Had they known that they should kill impale, no deep wound or less damage, they would have no reason to kill HotO because they would have to re run TF.
Depends on how they adapt it for warrior, as the good knockdowns besides bulls are elite and devastating has no+ damage.
A skill that requires thinking should be better than one that does not. Protection should be better than heal, SoJ sins should be dead, etc.
Llint
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Orinn
I try, I really do, but I have to agree that calling for nerfs on the forums to anything that actually beats "balanced" on a regular basis, has become second nature to a lot of people. Adaptation is not necessary, just throw around around catchphrases like "degenerate gameplay" and "bad for the game" if it beats balanced, and keep insisting that the devs nerf it. Eventually, the devs cave, repeat until "metagame" means nothing more than "what flavor of balanced do we want to run today?"
A resilient metagame is full of options. Some are stronger than others, some are incredibly strong against certain things and weak against others. By constantly asking the developers to promote the 2-warrior, 2-monk, 1-ranger, 1-mesmer, 1 runner, 1-other build, to favor it above anything that can beat it, PvP players are killing any hope of a vital and resilient metagame, and they don't even understand that they are doing it. When every team starts to look the exact same, when all the gimmicks are dead and am completely standard, stale, and stagnant metagame consisting of only balanced teams comes about, PvP players will be left wondering... how did this happen. And not one of them will blame themselves for helping to kill off any semblance of a resilient metagame. I fully expect that the really top-level PvP players will see this coming months and months in advance, and will simply, quietly, leave. A stale metagame environment is the only possible outcome if things continue the way they are going: a cycle of nerfcalling and capitulation that seems to actually be accelerating. more and more skills are put up for nerfs by the community every day. Good arguments are made, but they alll assume that balanced builds should have a chance to beat everything, and that underlying assumption will be the thing that eventually kills PvP. |
lg5000
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by B/P_Ranger
The more I think of it.. I am so tired of this game and its freaking elitist attitude... a casual player like me isn't allowed to play I suppose, because I dont want to build another character, because I don't want to discover another build...you have effectively screwed me out of playing the game. There is no need for my build.
Maybe I should just give up on my favorite type of games Diablo 2 GW and go to some shooter game like Halo that isn't nerfing their players every time they turn the f around |
What's soo wrong with learning a new build? With experimenting with new builds?
Zeek Aran
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
When some team comes along with a unique build that happens to shit all over your balanced build and the only way to effectively counter it is to change from a balanced build to one that specifically is designed against said build. That is imbalance.
There's a huge difference between bringing protective spirit to counter large single attack damage and bringing shields up to counter the damage from ranger spike. |
CyberNigma
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Llint
Alright bro, we'll just bring back old IWAY, vimway, ranger spike, pre-pre-pre-pre-pre nerf gale, discord, paragon way, ritualist spirits, FoC, Chain lightning, Ether renewal, smiting, Rao etc etc etc so the metagame doesn't get stale and I won't have to run FoTM's. Woot. Go us.
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Llint
Quote:
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Originally Posted by CyberNigma
Well if you can bring all of those back and they're playable against each other, then you've got your 'balance' right there lol.. with variety even.
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Edit: Bolded for emphasis.
ensoriki
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zknifeh
*Grabs a torch and gathers an angry mob to hunt Izzy*
horns was perfectly balanced skill, with a reasonable condition to meet. i could see how trampling ox was a bit too strong and always thought it should do about the same dmg as hoto. now hoto is pure garbage making most reasonable builds useless to lack of damage. i say its a bit better than [skill]jagged strike[/skill] BRING HOTO BACK!!! and buff trampling ox by about 5-8 dmg more! |
1 second bleeding that you can spread to multiple people.
That also activates on If ally attacks skills from paragons/monks/rits
horns
you get 18 damage more..On the weapons with the weakest damage in the game. Conditional Knockdown, that any skilled team would learn. Horn's made people think about their position? PVP your going to tell me thats bad, to make people want to position themselves? Horns made sins have to consider who to target than just pick a target 12345, because you needed a target who was really away from others.
Anyways
horns recharge is longer than jaggeds (by many times)
meaning Jagged can activate, when Ally uses a skill clauses far better than Horns.
Thats something people forget about jagged.
Spammable bleed, that is good for activating clauses.
Horns...no...15 seconds (or was it 12) for additional 18 damage.
Considering sins will usually hit about 6-14 damage (average) and 32 crit (60 AL)
thats not allot, that means horns will really do
+10 damage at 13 dagger mastery
so 16-24 damage per hit, 42 damage if you crit.
thats 36-48 damage total, 84 damage if your LUCKY, and Actually my math for the crit is off. As I've never seen horns hit for that high from a crit even before the nerf >.>
regardless if it does that 84 damage, believe it or not is still total crap.
1 its based of luck, 2 crits are based off multiplication not stacking.
IF guardian is used as defense with its 50% chance only.
And the normal sin has a less than 50% chance (about 30 ish %
you show me how thats fair?
its probably more about 68 damage if you crit.
PvP you call that balance? A good skill conditional knock down thats simplest counter is basic POSITIONING?
Just want to hammer that in.
Prove me wrong if you want to.
B/P_Ranger
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by lg5000
I'm a casual player, I play mesmer and I am more than interested in other skills because I do need to know which skills can be interrupted, what's an enchant and what is and what isn't a spell. Don't wanna put backfire on the ranger that doesn't have any spells
What's soo wrong with learning a new build? With experimenting with new builds? |
Distracting shot, Savage shot, Barrage, Pain inverter, healing, rebirth, comfort pet and charm pet..
I play maybe a 3 hours a week, and changing your skill bar wont matter, because when it comes down to it, it will only be a matter of time before its nerfed again.
I left diablo over this kind of attitude, and I'm honestly sick of it.
I am tired of my character being screwed with because of f'ing pvp
Full Metal X
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by CyberNigma
Well if you can bring all of those back and they're playable against each other, then you've got your 'balance' right there lol.. with variety even.
|
/FAIL
CyberNigma
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sekkira
When some team comes along with a unique build that happens to shit all over your balanced build and the only way to effectively counter it is to change from a balanced build to one that specifically is designed against said build. That is imbalance.
There's a huge difference between bringing protective spirit to counter large single attack damage and bringing shields up to counter the damage from ranger spike. |
peterchen620
You know whats funny about the Soul Reaping nerf? Exactly... What does Soul Reaping means? Spirits have souls, and yet Soul Reaping does not apply to them. It just doesn't make sense... Pretty pathetic I must say.
Sekkira
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Orinn
I try, I really do, but I have to agree that calling for nerfs on the forums to anything that actually beats "balanced" on a regular basis, has become second nature to a lot of people. Adaptation is not necessary, just throw around around catchphrases like "degenerate gameplay" and "bad for the game" if it beats balanced, and keep insisting that the devs nerf it. Eventually, the devs cave, repeat until "metagame" means nothing more than "what flavor of balanced do we want to run today?"
A resilient metagame is full of options. Some are stronger than others, some are incredibly strong against certain things and weak against others. By constantly asking the developers to promote the 2-warrior, 2-monk, 1-ranger, 1-mesmer, 1 runner, 1-other build, to favor it above anything that can beat it, PvP players are killing any hope of a vital and resilient metagame, and they don't even understand that they are doing it. When every team starts to look the exact same, when all the gimmicks are dead and am completely standard, stale, and stagnant metagame consisting of only balanced teams comes about, PvP players will be left wondering... how did this happen. And not one of them will blame themselves for helping to kill off any semblance of a resilient metagame. I fully expect that the really top-level PvP players will see this coming months and months in advance, and will simply, quietly, leave. A stale metagame environment is the only possible outcome if things continue the way they are going: a cycle of nerfcalling and capitulation that seems to actually be accelerating. more and more skills are put up for nerfs by the community every day. Good arguments are made, but they alll assume that balanced builds should have a chance to beat everything, and that underlying assumption will be the thing that eventually kills PvP. |
It's heading into gimmick territory that's killing the game. This is the reason for the call for nerfs. The reasoning behind a nerf 'because I keep dying to it' is bullshit being spouted. The reasoning behind one 'because the only way to effectively counter it is to run a specific build for that which gimps my own build against anything else' is a damn good one.
PvPers aren't calling for nerfs in order to obtain a flat game with a single build which they will face the same thing day in day out. They're calling for nerfs to avoid that fate. They're calling for nerfs to bring all skills of the game to such a level where while your build may be radically different from your opponents, and while you may or may not have the advantage, depending on both of you, your build is not what will decide the match ultimately.
raddaman
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by peterchen620
You know whats funny about the Soul Reaping nerf? Exactly... What does Soul Reaping means? Spirits have souls, and yet Soul Reaping does not apply to them. It just doesn't make sense... Pretty pathetic I must say.
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wetsparks
Pets no longer leave exploitable corpses puts the hurts to b/p teams, sadly I have always wondered why they didn't get wacked with the nerf bat sooner. You use five rangers, one monk, two necros and roll through "elite" areas.
But, why oh why hit energizing winds with that huge a nerf? Do they not want people to trap underworld? I can think of no other way that this is even remotely used. Make every skill/spell cost 10 energy and 33% longer skill recharge made most people shy away from it, unless there is some build that uses it in pvp which would make no sense to me.
But, why oh why hit energizing winds with that huge a nerf? Do they not want people to trap underworld? I can think of no other way that this is even remotely used. Make every skill/spell cost 10 energy and 33% longer skill recharge made most people shy away from it, unless there is some build that uses it in pvp which would make no sense to me.
CyberNigma
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Full Metal X
I think you missed the point lulz, the whole point was all of those were imbalanced so they got nerfed.
/FAIL |
HawkofStorms
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Spike
If anef keep going like this, thier won't be enough people left playing to pay for the server upkeep.
|
Anyway, on topic. I can't believe how many people are whinning over like 4 skills changed. God, I hate the guru community sometimes.
Sin
Anyway, Black Lotus was an interesting way to nerf SP sins. I like it. Trampling, Impale, and Expose all needed some reworking. Now, the Horns nerf hurts a bit, and ruins my current FA AoD build, but it was pretty commonly used. Forcing a meta shift is fine by me. I'm not going to cry over spilt milk. I'll just adapt. All this "causal player being screwed" stuff is BS too. It isn't elitest to have to force people to buy 10-24 skills per character and change their build around every once in a while. God. Bitch less please, because true casual players are the ones using W/E with flare, not the ones who actually understand why a -12 damage reduction in a dual attack hurts. True casual players won't care about nerfs because they won't even notice them.
Monk
Good. Was getting kinda annoying in RA/TA.
Necro
Finally. The N/Rt build will die.
Ranger
Barrage buff? This along with SF a while ago makes me think a-net wants more C-Spaceing in PvE (and thus helps the "casual player" <see above>).
Good, Magebane now makes sense and is actually better then distracting shot. A.net listened to my comments on last weeks thread. Huzzah. I feel famous. *blows kisses to the crowd*
Pets.... eh. B/P groups still work. You can make a nice minon army by just killing the enemies. I've played MM in enough of the Tombs/Urgoz groups to know that pets are useful more as meat shields along with the minions then as actual minion factories (really, when I play in BP groups, the pets don't usually die that often since your team should roll through the PvE groups so quickly).
Sleeper Service
and so if people bring counters to that "gimmick" build what happens?
what happens to the meta? it changes. people stop using THAT particular "gimmick" build and move onto something different.
and THAT. is META.
what happens to the meta? it changes. people stop using THAT particular "gimmick" build and move onto something different.
and THAT. is META.
Zeek Aran
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Llint
Okay... I mean ... Wow... I dare you, DARE YOU, to try and beat ANY of those builds, without a DIRECT COUNTER.
Edit: Bolded for emphasis. |
55ing is still allowed in TA, just like perma SF if I'm not mistaken. One, ONE single skill, can be a direct counter that helps against more than just what is trying to be countered. What's is the issue? Note: I'm not talking about group builds, but single builds.
Fates
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Llint
Okay... I mean ... Wow... I dare you, DARE YOU, to try and beat ANY of those builds, without a DIRECT COUNTER.
Edit: Bolded for emphasis. |
Sounds a lot like what pvp'ers are constantly laughing at pve'ers for. "haha, fighting opponents with set skill bars that do exactly the same thing every time."
blue.rellik
This is a joke, how can anyone complain about PvE being 'hard' when the best skill has not been touched (aka a certain elite skill from the Norns that blesses you with the powers of a large four-legged carnivorous mammal)? If Ursanway can tear the buttocks out of HM Mallyx through C-spacing then the Darkness and some silly little Grasps are just toothpicks behind it
Full Metal X
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zeek Aran
Teams in TA have lost because of a 55er. They whine, and someone says, "Well, you should have brought a counter for that."
55ing is still allowed in TA, just like perma SF if I'm not mistaken. One, ONE single skill, can be a direct counter that helps against more than just what is trying to be countered. What's is the issue? Note: I'm not talking about group builds, but single builds. |
Sekkira
Quote:
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Originally Posted by CyberNigma
or that team just couldn't play their balanced build as well as they thought they could against anything that isn't predictable (like another build). there's something to be said about overcoming a challenge (yes, a challenge) when you're the underdog.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zeek Aran
What's wrong with bringing a single skill? What's the reason for nerfing sins? Ineptitude, any form of blind, just a single skill can ruin THEIR whole chain. I don't understand how Izzy can find that unbalanced.
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ensoriki
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by raddaman
Out of the only well-known bar where it wasn't necessary was SP. You need the deep wound, and your bar is already small. Twisting fangs was the only Deep wound skill, and no need for a 6 skill combo. When Impale got the deep wound boost, there was no reason to use twisting fangs (plus the fact that imaple needs only 5e down cost). You have your cake and eat it too with a knockdown, high damage, and room for an IAS. Had they known that they should kill impale, no deep wound or less damage, they would have no reason to kill HotO because they would have to re run TF.
Depends on how they adapt it for warrior, as the good knockdowns besides bulls are elite and devastating has no+ damage. A skill that requires thinking should be better than one that does not. Protection should be better than heal, SoJ sins should be dead, etc. |
nerfing HoTO will never at this current age in time be the smart thing to do.
Really, I liked the OLD OLD impale, back when it was a hex (anyone else love that?)
when Impale was a hex, since did not use IAS, so monks had clearly enough time to remove it since everyone complains how a sin without an IAS is slow.
but if it didnt it boosted your damage by about 70.
Using with boS (back when it was what 50 damage)
was great because you got a 170 damage spike then, with twisting fangs for 300 damage + bleeding,
I was to new at sin to know if the old impale was imbalanced...so I'll say nothing more about it.
The reason for Hoto is not just the knockdown.
if it was just for knock down >impale.
Since impale would knock them out at the very beginning.
mark of instability> also as you can get higher damage output by using it (proven, ive tested it...warrior went wtf hit me)
hoto's use was
moderate damage + knock down in 1 skill. Making it a Good skill (not imbalanced)
thats why before Nightfall, Horns was SO common.
Yanman can probably tell you how common it was to see
Unsuspecting strike fox fangs, horns FS twisting
or Palm strike, FF,horns FS twisting.
In todays age in pvp, that combo wouldn't be ground breaking (wasn't even back then).
So know, horns use is not JUST to get knock down.
and thus this buff makes it crap.
Horns would work better on a hammer warrior
They have the second highest base damage in the game , and it was the highest damage in the game until 1 year ago.
Llint
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by CyberNigma
If you have all of those builds together (if it's possible), then they really wouldn't be unbalanced against each other. They were unbalanced because they were being compared to the 'balanced class composition build' and the other ones were either already nerfed or hadn't been thought of yet. At that point, what you're calling balanced (not balanaced builds, but rather balanced in the composition of classes on the team) would be a weak an inefficient build.
|
lg5000
Quote:
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Originally Posted by B/P_Ranger
I do experiement to some degree, and I have, excuse me had a build that worked awesome for me...
Distracting shot, Savage shot, Barrage, Pain inverter, healing, rebirth, comfort pet and charm pet.. I play maybe a 3 hours a week, and changing your skill bar wont matter, because when it comes down to it, it will only be a matter of time before its nerfed again. I left diablo over this kind of attitude, and I'm honestly sick of it. I am tired of my character being screwed with because of f'ing pvp |
Sekkira
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lg5000
They upped the damage of barrage and you're complaining?
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Alienufo
Quote:
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Originally Posted by 6am3 Fana71c
Magebane Shot - holy hell. This pwns. And to people who compare it to Distracting - IT'S NOT THE SAME! Distracting disables SKILL, Magebane disables SPELL. And Magebane can't be blocked, which is important in PvP (in PvE you hardly need interupts anyway)
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CyberNigma
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
You seem to be forgetting the most important thing about a balanced build: That it's not actually defined. A balanced build is something that has equal chance against everything or strengths against some, weaknesses in others, but both really depend on player skill. A balanced build is undefined because there is no ultimate build guaranteed to defeat anything that crosses its path. If there was, it wouldn't be balanced.
It's heading into gimmick territory that's killing the game. This is the reason for the call for nerfs. The reasoning behind a nerf 'because I keep dying to it' is bullshit being spouted. The reasoning behind one 'because the only way to effectively counter it is to run a specific build for that which gimps my own build against anything else' is a damn good one. PvPers aren't calling for nerfs in order to obtain a flat game with a single build which they will face the same thing day in day out. They're calling for nerfs to avoid that fate. They're calling for nerfs to bring all skills of the game to such a level where while your build may be radically different from your opponents, and while you may or may not have the advantage, depending on both of you, your build is not what will decide the match ultimately. |
Lack of player skill and/or laziness. There are still people that play without using cookie cutter builds that can at least win a few matches against said 'overpowered' builds. Either Izzy or Ensign (maybe Gaile) was talking the other day about how so many guild teams sit until Victory or Death before even doing anything. How friggin lame is that. That is pure unadulterated laziness. Even if you lose or it takes a considerable amount of effort to go on the offensive, at least you would be playing and trying.