Ursan....Thoughts?

It's the fact that UB is the best choice for that situation when you should have a handful of builds that you can use.

It's not normally a good thing to concern someone.

In terms of player size, 8v8. At least with 8 people the teams were much more flexible and not filled with the Jagged Bones crap (which also took awhile to nerf).

Hence why I'm calling UB the shotgun approach. Instead of fixing professions and making them more flexible in PvE, they just say "oh to hell with it" and lay down the hammer and just give something that's powerful and that everyone can use. But from what's been stated by many thus far it may end up doing more harm than good.

If anything Ursan fixes PvE. At least in A.Net's way of "fixing" things.
Instead of going after the root of the problem - they just gave us an insane counter. And because I don't feel that they will ever address the real problem - I don't have a problem with at least a counter being in the game!
But this of course only works because of the specific of PvE: If you don't like it, you don't need to use it!

Ursan was only possible because PvE is so broken that it allowed for such a skill.

Edit:
Ohh it seems that the last few posts said exactly the same thing.
Just from the different angle.

No, I didn't know that, but if those heroes are, say, a bonder, a healer, and a smiter or SS necro, then the empty skillbar isn't a farming build, then the entire team is a three-person build, with the player as the fourth member. However you're right that there's probably a broken skill somewhere at the bottom of that build too - like, say, Spirit Bond. I've never said that Ursan Blessing is the only broken skill, have I? It is, however, the worst.

Defining "farming" as only meaning "solo farming" like you do, means that a 600 monk + smiter hero is not a farming build, because, hey, there's two in the team! I hope we can agree that conclusion would be ridiculous.

To me "farming" is the act of repetitively killing the same mobs, over and over and over and over, for their drops. It doesn't matter what is being farmed or if it's a full team or not, that's just optimizing the yield, and completely irrelevant to whether it's farming or not.

What you're saying here is that you're resigned to the problem, that you've basically given up on GW. I'm not, and have not, although it does increasingly seem to me as if ANet is, since a year or so, taking GW in directions I don't want to go.

However, this kind of "fix" is very dangerous, and it could have been done in a lot more accessible way while preserving original spirit.

One of arguments pro-ursan i take is that it makes game faster, thus allowing people to get tre and be done with statue fast. Elite missions are lengthy, full of dull parts.

Also, challenge is not frontloaded, most anoying missions contain long easy part preceding hard part, thus making it frustrating to do casually because without proper planing you are wasteing time.

Elite missions can be reexamined and redone. i.e. Deep has couple of unchallenging parts which only lengthen it. Correct approach would be to cut away pretty much everything except first 4 areas, teleport room and boss room. Deep, FoW, UW, DoA, all of it can be downscaled by removing "lame parts", and keeping only challenge, and by putting challenge forwards much earlier. Long missions with fail moment can have this fail moment much earlier (i.e. make hard part of THK cleaning the city, not siege, make less "one monster" waves during siege.).

You can cut down time needed for, i.e. Deep for 15 minutes, granted that party rocks. That makes 3hour slugfest inexperienced party would endure normally cut down to one hour. It would not be easier, but it would be faster.

Another is that it allows people to expecrience all the content. There is nothig easier than adding Easy Mode. suck but prove that you really want to have that missions x thing done (simply, party wipe after certain point in mission unlocks easy mode). Easy mode is true tourist mode. Monsters are sub L20 (or L20 in elite missions), their ai rigged so that they get more dumber if they manage to kill people off, they would miss elite skills, etc ... Ofc, no statues come from it, but you are there just to have fun or to advance storyline, right?

This is example of two problems that ursan seems to solve solved without ursan, by promoting skillfull play, and by making content accessible to "i have no time" and "i have no skill" people.

It takes more time to do by devs, but it would overall *improve* gameplay, unlike ursan.

Actually, the build is not very specific. Take 2 MM necro heroes and one healer of some sort, that's it. Provide corpses by equipping a vampiric weapon, let the necros raise minions, let the minions do the killing. The original idea was to provide a way to get a spider without external help.

Ever heard of Pain Inverter? Now there's a lulzPvE instapawn skill.

No, I don't define farming as only solo farming. Actually, I fully agree with your definition of farming as quoted above. However, I disagree with your definition of 'farming build' or 'farming skill' as something that's used for farming.

Let's take an example: during the Wintersday people were farming gargoyles outside Nolani and Ascalon City to get some free booze. The issue is, if you state any random build X it could be shown that a lv20 character is able to farm gargoyles with build X. Ergo, any build is a farming build. However, that makes it completely redundant to talk about farming builds in contrast to just builds.

I would define 'farming build' as one or more sets of skills designed for the primary purpose of farming certain class or classes of monsters. You start with the target of your farming, then design the perfect counter. UB as a skillset is not designed for any particular target and is thus not a 'farming build'.

About farming skill then, I think that the whole concept is an oxymoron, because that would require you to have a skill that is designed for repeatedly killing same monsters over and over. Hence UB as a skill is not a 'farming skill' either.

The state PVE and PVP, whether you view them in good or bad light, are now what they are now because of the SUM of all the whining and anti-whining of GW community and ANET'S reactions to those whining in the span of over 2 years.

Now we are where we are.

**************

GW2 is coming. It is the ultimate solution by ANET. Better hope it will be a good one. ANET having learned from all the whines worth noting and whines worth ignoring.

If some people think GW need saving, people have few months to do so.

Why would Anet "reexamine" ANY area in a dead game? There are no new chapters coming. Their devs are "working on GW2".

Instead of looking for ways Anet should fix things to get rid of UB .. enjoy your game how you want to play it and don't worry about the other guys instance. That has ALWAYS been the beauty of guild wars .. you have your very own instance .. stop trying to dictate how others play in theirs. This is not about wanting others to improve .. anyone with an IQ above 70 can see through that BS.

Not that some of the egos around here could take it .. but maybe you are not as pro as some of you seem to think you are. Assuming all UB users are "bad at gw" just reinforces that possibility. That is ego talking not facts. Assuming you know what is best for the game is also ego talking .. not fact. Assuming people will never evolve beyond UB use is also ego talking .. not fact. The attitudes I have seen expressed here make me want to hug my heroes.

I probably have more hours logged in gw than 99% ranting against UB. Do I think I know what is best for GW? Nope. What I do know is that this game is on the decline with fewer people in every outpost with each month that goes by. UB has actually shown a noticeable improvement in people grouping together again. I call this a good thing given the state of decline of the game. As I said in another post. 32 months ago I would have seen your point. However 32 months into a game with no new chapters coming and a shrinking playerbase .. sorry your rants only come off as I am leet or you are protecting a farm.

Only thing left to do with this horse is chain it to a pickup and drag it down a gravel road.

And as I've said before, is where we are a good place to be?

Few months until what?

I'll ask you again: Where do you draw the line for how broken a skill is allowed to become? If all enemies could die in a single click of a new skill would that be acceptable to you?

It's not about wanting them to improve but of wanting them to experience the game. Playing in a handicapped or spectator mode is not playing the game.

Strict difference in "ego" and "opinion", and a lot of the opinions are based off of facts and/or common or general knowledge.

So in other words: "RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO it."

Likewise, couldn't the people in defense of UB be doing so that they're game stays easier?

UB is broken? Is Anet aware of this? Or is it just another weak argument to shore up a losing position? DING DING DING .. we have a winner! Odd I thought Anet even said it was working as intended.

What new skills? No new chapters means .. no new skills. Very weak example for your argument. To humor you .. Pain Inverter .. shreds any aoe monster in seconds. Didn't break the game ... If they did come out with that kill all monsters in a zone with one click and all monsters drop 100k. You are not posting out of greed remember? So it wouldn't matter if everyone was instarich. How would this change how you play your instance if you chose not to use it? Remember you are not protecting a farm so I am having difficulty seeing how this would change what you are doing in your own instance. Oh btw .. I could care less what skills you use or if you choose to dance naked on dead monsters. Why? I have my own instance.

Now you don't want them to improve? That has been used so many times in the rants against UB (note: confused look). More waffles here than an Ihop. So the official position now is how they "experience" their instance? I must be an epic fail on how I experience my instance then .. I often do it while watching tv or returning business calls. I guess I should lay my soul bare and confess to letting my heroes finish off mobs while I go get a drink as well. Really kind of amazing how much concern there suddenly is for Timmy the noob .. coming from the worst online community.

Why not call it what it is .. ego based opinions. You nor anyone beyond Anet has ANY facts. Till you produce the log files showing skill use per zone by player to support your ego based opinion it isn't a fact. Thinking you or anyone here knows what is best or fact is pure EGO. Best part is those log files would most likely blow your arguments out of the water. Not everyone uses the skill and not everyone using it is a noob.

Am I posting pro Ub to protect a farm? I made my first million before there was a rune trader. I don't need to farm anything. I am posting pro UB for one reason .. stay the hell out of my instance. Nobody beyond Anet has the right to dictate how I play in my instance. Those attempting to have influence over it have prompted my replies far more than the skill itself.

Horse is chained to pickup ... feel free to drag it down the gravel road without me.

I'm sure ANet is more than aware of the UB dilemma.

Okay then. How about an option that's enabled in the menu that makes it so you're invincible? Or made it so there were no monsters in any area? Or that made it so every monster dealt 1 damage and 1 hit point? From the direction yours posts are heading in, I'd say that you'd say "sure."

Learning how to play, what's best, what works, and most importantly what works for you is all part of the game experience. When you take ladder and skip a lot of that then you miss out on a lot of the content.

It's akin to the "difficulty bar" in Oblvion. Just this time there's no one to tell you what you're doing is the easy path.

That wasn't to accuse you. I'm saying that both sides of the argument can have similar shitty motives.

I've come to terms with it, though I refuse to use it.

Making your own build is the most fun that this game has to offer. Ursan takes this away and taunts you on top of that. Why bother being creative if you can be the Unstoppable Bear of Doom?

Right now we have Hard Mode, Normal Mode and Ursan Mode.



All I hope for is that it doesn't make its way into GW2 or that it gets severely toned down.

I asked you how exactly do these people find Ursan affecting the game, and since they are PvP players, it would've been interesting to see how exactly are they affected. Yet, you gave me another general statement.

Such creativity never existed. I have been telling how easily people can just take a build off PvXwiki for the last few arguements; have you even read what I wrote?

In other words, like I said, you will be another standing meat shield while your Ursan is off. This isn't really creativity with Ursan; it is simply an experience we have after using it, and understanding the better way of using it.

Especially the topic of this thread is about sharing different uses of Ursan, and many people have point out different ways to be most efficient in using it, people are still capable to think that the standard non-Ursan users method works as enough to beat any given areas. Indeed, it doesn't take a lot of brainpower to use, but I can see why and how people fail with it.

So when your Ursan is down, and you are still capable of doing all those? Explain how.

They tried to buff Mesmers and other unwanted professions to make them more wanted in PvE. Guess what, it doesn't work. They are still unwanted. Now, we do have a solution here; unless you have a well-thought idea to fix this, you are really part of the problem as you keep trying to destroy this only solution we have so far.

It's not the best, but it's useful as groups can be assembled in a lesser amount of time, and unwanted professions can join.

Like I said above, there are better ways of using Ursan, and when people are not using it properly, they will die. Now, I don't get your point; you are saying that people need to put in efforts when making build set-ups, but the amount of efforts really various from people to people, even with Ursan, why do you want to keep it at a maximum, and does it matter to you?

Secondly, people really do give me a good laugh when they try to use the term, competition in PvE dicussions. Since when did PvE became an area where we can all compete, despite the fact that we all have different instance, where we don't see eachother?

Sure.

Look at it this way, I'm at 900 points, and I'm on my winter break. That was only 6 hours and 2 hours spent in doing two dungeons, which one of the two is quite difficult. I'm only doing them once, so 8 hours is really not much.

However, as noted in these groups, there were a lot of ditchers. Without Ursan, would I have made it? If I didn't, how many more time would I have to spend in order to finish them? Now that's a lot.

To be honest, the shift between 6-people party and 8-people party is really just a balancing method to keep people refreshed with their builds. Thus, it explains the time duration each setting holds.

However, just because there were changes made to certain areas in the game, it doesn't mean that this aspect of the game will be changed just because you believe so.

That's not really our concern now, is it?

That's just a plain bad idea. Like I said, you have this non-Ursan user perspective to Ursan, which you believe it is all almighty and capable of getting you all sort of achievements without doing anything, but in reality, it does not.

Wintersday was more damaging than Ursan can ever do. It's like there's a nuclear missle that's about to hit North America, and people are still complaining that the community is not recycling enough to reserve the natural resources of Earth. It just amazes me.

EDIT:

There will be a skill called Bear Form, which is similar to Ursan Blessing.

While a build ripped off of PvX Wiki is still a build taken off of PvX Wiki, each one has it's own unique application. When you use one of those builds, you're pretty much test driving those skills. You get used to their application and what they're used best with. It gets better when that person gets bored with that build or wants to try something new, so they go on the wiki and get a different set of skills to be introduced to.

A build listed as "great" in the wiki pretty much says "here's a good example of what works." The more you show people what work, the more they can make connections and understand a large assortment of skills. It may be uncreative, sure, but you're learning in the process.

If you're losing your Ursan than that's a totally different problem that you *really* need some looking into.

Again, it's the fact that using it takes the least amount of coordination and planning compared to any other build, and the fact that it encourages people to think "the more of the same, the better."

Even today they're still unwanted. Mesmers and Rits aren't joining groups because of their skills, but because of Ursan. Not only that, but they're not playing as Mesmers or Rits, they're playing as bears. They're not utilizing what their class does best. They're not learning to play as their class, their learning to use a very rigid build.

Don't mistake: Those professions aren't getting into instances because they aren't viable, but because people *think* they aren't viable. While Mesmers may have a slight harder time than others, they can kick as much ass as anyone else. Another problem UB might cause: It could convince the player that they're profession is useless, which is far from the truth.

Class discrimination can't ever be helped. But at least most PUGs have a tendency to fail, anyways, so the mesmer/rit/sin won't feel too bad (left out Para because well, honestly, they can do much better on their own). We can only hope that said class will lose hope in finding PUGs and look for a guild to join.

It's not so much a solution as much as it is an "I give up." The idea that me and Upier share to solve this is not terribly easy, and that's to balance PvE - and that's very unlikely. I would've rather the players just resort to finding a guild or to not playing than introduce something like UB.

If you want to be so strict on the application of the word, go right ahead. What I'm saying is that the alternatives to going Ursanway are much weaker. It's the same as if IWay was the best and most successful team in GvG, or having the best party setup in Dungeons and Dragons to be nothing but Barbarians.

? Never before have I had to resort to Psyduck to express myself...

So the only thing you were missing out on was something pointless, and/or that could be easily substituted? I guess I could be a little more understanding if you had every single other title maxed out.

Maybe not, but the fact that you alone were able to cover the incompetence of the group says a lot. It should be a team win or a team failure.

Not so much to "refresh the builds" but to provide a greater amount of flexibility and counters. Take Hero Battles for example: For awhile, seldom would you not see a SP Sin not topping the score boards. And still to this day there's always a Heal As One R/P in the team. There wasn't (isn't?) a whole lot of variation because of how limited both the arenas and the AI were.

The smaller the party cap, the less flexibility you can have. This was part of the reason why "Forgot The Ghostly" won so many HA matches (until they nerfed the build, which also took awhile.)

It's not just me that thinks so.

Not to mention, there have been other PvE demands that have met (Razah, DoA difficulty.)

It is if ANet thinks that this was a good idea. If anything, it was a last resort.

At this point, it's not so much as that I want Ursan removed or toned-down, just that people understand how broken and damaging it is. As long as you know that you're handicapping yourself, then I will be at the very least content.

Indeed. I wonder how many people would consider this a bad idea before Ursan hit: "An elite skill that when used would replace your entire bar with it's own set of skills, and that grew more powerful through a Kurzick/Luxon-like title."

But that's besides the point: Where do you draw the line in terms of what's a "plain bad idea" and something that actually helps the game?

I can't tell if this is sarcastic or serious. How was Wintersday damaging?

I've used ursan blessing in some long HM Dungeon which I can't remember the name of.... Mindless fun indeed.

You do know that in Hard Mode, e-drains caused by mobs can nearly consume one's whole energy bar, despite any energy management method that is been used. And despite this, Ursan is still almighty for you.

So basically, you want Mesmers and Ritualists to play their classes the way you see it's right, despite that the fact they are unable to find a group due to class discrimination. Now that we have a solution to reduce this class discrimination, and you would want to to get rid of it, since it does not fit your standards, despite how many people are finally able to find groups in PvE areas. That's plain selfish.

So what alternative solution will you provide instead of just general saying that Anet can look into it? As far as I have read, you have no working solution.

So players who have unwanted professions will feel better knowing that most PuG's have a tendency to fail? That's just messed up. Why do you think players would feel better when they hear some else is suffering?

Basically, your only solution is for these unwanted classes to join a guild, which you believe it will fix all this class discrimination problem. To be honest, there are players who like to stay in a guild with their friends, and there are casual guilds, which are not active in playing. Just because the current solution does not fit your standard, you would want to get rid of it, and your so-called working solution is forcing people to change guilds.

So basically you are telling us that you have no working solution, yet you believe that you should get rid of the current one and only solution just because it does not fit your standards.

I'm not being strict on the application of your arguement, but I'm just using a logic technique to narrow your arguement down to its premisses and conclusions, then reply to them.

And so, your justification to nerf a PvE-only skill, which can only be used in PvE, is your so-called PvP experience. Like I asked many times, why can't you just play PvP?

Secondly, as for Iway being the best in GvG, that's just wrong to so many different levels. Iway isn't even efficient in HA, and to be honest, it actually requires basic PvP knowledge and knowing the maps to even earn a few fames with it. The pro of Iway is, you can set up a group just in a matter of minutes, while most balanced teams take longer. The con of Iway is, you will be owned by any experienced balanced team. In simple terms, Iway is only used for new HA players to learn HA, who do not have a rank and earn a few points to their fame, and perhaps for fame farmers earning a few quick fames.

And this is your business, because...?

So just because some players do not have the responsibility to stay in the group, so that we can complete the task, you believe that the whole team deserves to fail. Are you a bit too serious?

We are discussing PvE here. Why are you using comparisons on PvP mechanics to reflect the needs of PvE mechanics?

So where is this large amount of players who share the same belief as you?

Finally, you are being honest that you want people to handicap themselves just to please you, but I'm sorry, we got other things to do.

Where Anet believe it's right, which is neither of our concerns.

The usuall four headgears have been reduced to two, and the designs were rushed. The ice crown, for example, should have provided a more suitable hair style for each professions. However, each character's head size is different, and thus additional programming time was needed. Consequently, we got an ugly wig that can suit all the characters. More information can be found in an another thread, which I thought you have read it as you replied to it. Nevertheless, once a year event has been a dissapointment for many of us.

-There is a limited amount of AoE e-denial skills, and are also not common
-Some that do drain energy are on attack skills. UB bypasses this.
-The other wide-area effect e-denial skills are spirits. Take them down fast (Quicksand also triggers on attack, easily bypassed.)

Regarding your re-quoted threads: So you'd rather promote a slim chance of learning something new over a greater chance of learning something new?

And are you saying that running Ursanway is not the most simple team to build? You yourself said that it was quick and effective, so why are you re-quoting yourself?

Nuh-uh, I'm saying they should be able to be wanted by playing as their class.

I almost forgot about one vital, important point: Is the discrimination really reduced? What about those without UB? This can screw over *any* profession!

Balance PvE. Make it so the difficulty is because the monsters are smart, not because they're level 28 and deal five-bajillion damage.

As it usually goes, doing is a hell of a lot harder than saying, hence why I am calling UB the simple ole' "shotgun approach."

Depends on who's suffering. If I was a Mesmer looking forward to a pug only to be denied by all of them rather harshly because of my profession, I think I'd feel kinda glad knowing that they failed. Most people are nastier than nice, and in this case it'd be justified.

It's one of the things they could do, not should. As stated previously, the Mesmer is too smart of a profession for how PvE is currently set up.

Aight. So you understand what I mean now, right?

Nope.

Of course - hence why it was a hypothetical example. I'm saying Ursanway is the equivilent IF IWay was the most effective build in HA and GvG.

After having it essentially be my business in the past posts you suddenly stop making it my business?

What I'm saying is this: You want to play Hard Mode so you can get such-and-such titles. You can get other this-and-that titles without having to party up or play through Hard Mode. However, with UB, a lot of people are having their cake and eating it, too. I am not applying that to you, but to others.

Besides that: Titles, on the whole, don't matter - period. "But they'll matter for GW2!" No it won't, because it's already been made clear that you won't get anything beneficial from the HoM.

When you join a pug, you are committing yourself to that group. You are spending their time as well as you're own. When one person is like "eff this" and leaves, that sucks. That's always a problem in MMO's. This is why I'm *greatly* relieved that GW2 will not require having to party with anyone else. ANet has seen the quality of the PUG drop (skydive?) and is responding in the best way possible.

With that aside, I am not saying that that team deserves to fail. If anything, they deserve to win. I am saying that you should not have been able to cover up so many holes as just one person.

Um, because that was in reply to your HA comment:

Remember?

Read this thread for a few. And this one, and this one.

Quite the opposite. I am saying that you *are* handicapping yourselves:

We play their game and buy their products. It IS our concern, and that's why they, ANet, should also be concerned. Like you yourself said, ANet wants more people to buy GW2.

Okay HOLD up, HOLD the phone, young son.

A few posts ago, you were criticizing my second contribution in this thread, which read:

In which you said:

So it's okay if you do it or something?

What's more: You're complaining about a "rush" of design and programming for the hats when a lot of peoples' excuse for the hammer-down effect of UB because that they're working on GW2. All I can say is . What gives?

Ursan Blessing: Breeding idiots since August 28th 2007.

All i have to say is: W...T...F

Don't forget, skill spamming also leads to boredom, and this (imo) will be bad on ANet's part.
Also considering the EASE to clear ANYTHING with this single skill.

What raises eye-brows is how far he can actually go with that.

And nice avatar, Sph0nz.

Yes.
That's why I pretty much play Paragons, Warriors and Necros only these days. (I'd play a Monk also but I was into monking just to get the pretty armour.)
There are things that I can influence - but the persistent world of GW PvE is sure as hell not one of them!

Once again - yes.
But then again - since we are not asking for a new hat or a mini - I wouldn't exactly hold my breath.

The point of that image is, that everyone is using that build or such simillar build? Great argument.

Actually, there have been idiots BEFORE August 28th 2007.

Actually, there have been stupid builds BEFORE August 28th 2007.







Bryant, as I see them, Mesmers and Ritualist are discrimnated for two reasons:

1. PARTY META-BUILD SYNERGY. The mentioned classes doesn't usually fit most party meta-build synergy, an environment created by intelligent people who thinks they know all things GW. But, personally, dont see any wrong with it. What's wrong is, people double standard of applying the rule.

2. IGNORANCE. Many are not fully knowledgeable (euphemism for ignorant) of the classess like the Ritualist class I play. Ancestor's Rage can do damage of 137 every 8 sec, with arcane echo we can do it every 4 sec. We can add splinter also to boost damage. All for 5 energy. That's pretty hefty damage even alongside an elementlist. But we still rarely find a PUG group unless there was no one else around or just fill up the eight slot. But even if one joins a group, we are still relegated to the Resto/Channeling stereotype. If we show a spirit's strenght build, we get boot out of the party.

If you want discriminated class be part of the party, lets educate ourselves of our ignorance, not ram into people's throat they dont know the concept of skill building.

Actually, as Ritualist, EVEN NOW without Ursan, we can play pivotal role in party - being easily offensive and defensive at the same time without being handicapped. But since we dont fit the party meta-build environment created by the player-gods of GW, we dont get in a party most of the time.

Even if you take out Ursan, people will still be sticking to the meta-build environment and people will still insist people are not creative enough like they are.

Oh, that has been going on even BEFORE August 28th 2007. Perhaps the only way people can be regarded as "intelligent and creative" was drop Ursan and follow their formula of playing guildwars.

My take.

I've long suspected(and I think mentioned a couple of times) that UB is anets tool to end class discrimination and 'compensate' for the areas that encourage class discrimination(DoA for example). However it does this in a very clumsy way in that it turns whatever class into another one. An Ursan.

People complained that mesmers,paragons, assasins etc were not getting teams, or that such and such a place was too restrictive on the builds one could play(all of which is true). So anet kinda listened and made a skill that essentially made every class the same therefore by and large 'negating' class discrimination.

In doing so however I believe the solution they made is very wrong, instead of revamping the areas that were causing the discontent they went for an almost 'Borg' approach of having a single skill that will assimilate all other professions and losing them of their distinctiveness.

People, by and large will take the easy route. I know people who wont buy a game unless it has cheat codes for example. Now in a single player game a cheat code harms no one. It's up to you if you want to turn a 20 hour game experience into a 2 hour one.

With an online game things are different, every skill bar you run affects someone else. MMO Chaos theory if you like. So while yes it's your choice if you run Ursan, that choice also has ramifications on others.

Now if all you want is to lose the heart and core of what profession you play just to get a shiny statue then no one can really stop you. However don't kid yourself you got that Mallyx, Fow or UW statue on your Mesmer, Assasin or Paragon you did'nt. You got it from another profession, an Ursan(maybe dressed differently but thats all). Usnig a single player game as an example may help to get across what I mean.

Take HL2, now there are certain achievements one can get there (in the same way as titles or the HoM stuff) what if there was a command that allowed you to turn Gordon Freeman into say 'Dog' with all of 'Dog's' abilities but who still looked like Gordon. Now would you have gotten those achieivements by playing as Gordon or as 'Dog'?

That is what UB does to your GW character..

What takes real skill in the game is to succeed in the areas where Ursan now flourishes is to play as your own proffesion, with all the limitations and benefits that offers. To use a build that does'nt lose the distinctivess of it, and break out of the Ursan borg collective. I can see a time if left unchecked there will be only 2 professions in the game, an Ursan and a Monk.

I can't or won't force anyone to never play Ursan(tho I have been tempted) as it's a personal choice. But my choice is never to have UB on my bar because of the reasons I gave.

I've also seen people mention that unless they plan an Ursan they wont get a team. Well putting it bluntly if your guild or alliance is so blinkered as not to take you in teams then leave go to one who does. My experience says that very often guilds and allliances that will adapt a build to fit in with who wants to come are usually the better ones anyway. So the I can't get a team argument is also wrong. It's not a can't it's a won't.

In the same way as I cant do an area without UB, well sorry but learn to. It's not a can't do it, it's a won't do it

I've also seen people say 'I've not got time to do xyz' that's also a misconception. A proper balanced team build is still faster than ursan, just use what time you have to learn what works. You may not get there before someone else, but since when has GW been a racing game?

It's your choice what you play, but that decision does have ramifications. If you are happy to eventually see only two professions in HM or in elite missions then go ahead and run Ursan, if you want to keep the varations, nuances and uniqueness of GW professions then just don't.

There's also a limited amount of counters for other builds like cookie-cutters, but it doesn't mean that's the reason to nerf it. The reason why people made these builds is that it allows them to form a group faster, and knowing that most PvE areas these builds can bypass it, many areas can be used with them.

Out of curiousity, how many people are really playing Guild Wars to learn? The answer is not many. If people truly wish to learn, they can attend universities, and they can actually get a degree for learning. As far as I know, people play games for fun.

Secondly, please give the community some credits for playing all these years. In all fairness, there are hardly any new comers, and the current players, despite some of them are only casual players, they know how to make builds that work. With this said, however, I'm not saying the new comers shouldn't at least understand the basic mechanics to the game, but the problem is, Guild Wars 2 beta is coming out in 6 months or a bit. In other words, most areas will be deserted, and unless you would have the kindness and patience to actually drop by Guild Wars while playing Guild Wars 2 to teach these new players and help them out, can't we just give them Ursan?

I stated that a Ursan group is easy to assemble, but I did not state that it was perfect to the degree that there are no counters in the game, which is two completely different matters.

Yet, there's no possible solution for that.

When a person is unable to get into a group due to lack of a certain skill, that's campaign or expansion discrimination. However, when a person is unable to get into a group due to the fact that this person plays a unwanted profession, that is a class discrimination. Campaign discrimination can be overcome by purchasing the missing campaign, but class discrimination is unable to be overcome unless additional campaigns/expansions are made, in which allows new and better builds to convince the community that the unwanted profession is now wanted. However, there will not be any additional campaigns or expansions. In simple words, class discrimination is worse than campaign discrimination. Consequently, the discrimination has been reduced.

If you are aware of how pointless your goal here is, what's your point?

Most people aren't that malicious and that serious about a video game.

Yet, it is still the most unwanted profession in the game.

Personally, I have tried to argue in your perspective, but most points I would make would seem rather selfish or biased. However, I have came up with one idea that seems less selfish or biased.

The idea is, we should buff other PvE-only skills and nerf Ursan a bit on the way. In return, there will be more variety to the builds people make, and thus we won't see as many Ursans in the game. Basically, the idea has considered that Guild Wars is almost to the end, and so, it is really a way how the game can be enjoyed for everyone for this brief moment. Nevertheless, I believe this idea will be heavily criticized by certain people as they believe, despite the fact that Guild Wars is going to end, they want to hold the title of being elite, or so they believe, in the game, and so, they would believe this is more an act of destroying the game. If so, I'm going to be honest, it seems that all the reasons in your arguement is really founded on selfish and biased foundations.

It was never your business. It's more or less just an example to show how little is left in Guild Wars.

I agree, I do find it annoying how some people who do not understand a simple concept to the game, and they are able to complete areas like DoA. Nonetheless, the fact is, like I said previously, Guild Wars is coming to an end, and why not let Little Timmy there have his moment in the sun?

To be honest, there are certain effects you can achieve by finishing certain parts of the Hall of Monument, which I believe will lead to certain special unlocks.

Indeed, and so we should look forward to Guild Wars 2.

Just a note, that was 80 honeycombs, 1 powerstone of courage and a grail.

And that was really a reply to your HA reason:


There are also people who are in favor to keep Ursan the way it is.

Guess that's a matter of perspectives.

I was once like you, thinking that Anet cares deeply about every player in the game, but the truth is, they only care about the majority, which is the casual players. I learned that when Skill Packs were released, and many players made very nice arguements to forbid it, saying how it ruins the skill over time factor in PvP, yet it is still on sale today. Nothing will change; why don't you just get ready for Guild Wars 2?

Well we can analyze the situation this way...

Ursan Blessing is a PvE-only elite skill that can only be used in PvE. And so, it only affects PvE players.

Now we look at Wintersday, which is an once a year event, where people gather together to enjoy this holiday. So it affects both PvP and PvE players.

We can see that these two topics both have their pros and cons, but we also need to note that the Wintersday affects more people than Ursan. Personally, I don't know what is the exact number of people that are upset from both topics; however, knowing that Wintersday affects more people, it is possible that Wintersday may cause a greater possible damage.

Lol!


Im pretty sure i joined that group at one point and left after i saw their builds.


The one above + a ranger with fireball and firestorm = Epic win



...right?

Shanaeri:

I disagree with the assumption that using UB diminishes the nature of our profession. In fact, if we go by that logic, would taking a second profession diminish the primary?

If UB is the only skill you have in a bar, and think its god-mode, most likely you will be disappointed and dead. UB cannot succeed on its own, your other skills and game tactics also plays a big role.

Your Gordon the Dog analogy also seems faulty. Using your logic that Ursan is just a profession dressed differently: if, as warrior, I use monk skill to save my self will that degrade myself as warrior. Or I'm an assassin using ele skills to farm items, should I be ashame of getting those items because I use ele skills?

Your assumption that using UB will lead to two-only profession is just stretching it too far to the point of ridiculous.

If you think "having little time" is not a valid argument, I cant do anything about that view.

But since you have never use UB, I think I have an idea where its coming from. But I just have to disagree with your assumptions.

My take.

All mesmer teams.
FC nukers.
FC SSers.
FC Monks.
SoI PvE-skills spammers.

Ursan is just the next step.



We are so past the "heart and core" of a class in PvE.

Ursan is a class of its own.

I agree to the statement that Ursan Blessing largely takes away the diversity between classes.

What I cannot understand is that this is GOOD, because unwanted classes have an easier time to find a PUG.
First, who still really wants to play with PUGs, especially the former "elite" areas, like DoA, which became the major playground of the bears. Dumb people do class discrimination, Ritualists or Paragons are totally underrated, yes... and this is a reason to make all basically the same?


Ursan is not more powerful than a semi-intelligent teambuild played by semi-decent players. It is just so much easier, requires almost no brains.

And this is what wrong with this skill.
It gives players a fixed build that is great, easy to execute and that has proven that it can do even the harder areas of the game without too much problems, e.g. Shards of Orr, DoA, etc...



If they continue to develop GW into this direction, we will have mobs that drop when you sneeze in GW2, Devourers and Wurms rapid firing tactical nuke warheads and so on.

We do not need crude bandaids for disadvantaged classes and ever easier PvE. ANet needs to provide better PvE gameplay, which includes more love for PvE balance. Mobs must be made more challenging, and players given a hand to become better players while progressing through the story.

Right now we do not have that. You can play like a total moron and make it to the end of the campaigns, and then you stand there for weeks, request nerfs on the forum and wait for ANet to give in - or you hire a mission runner.



The gap in player skill is too high. We have a huge and very casual crowd that is so bad that many people gave up on pugging. We also have people with moderate experience, but the bulk of GW players has huge difficulties with any slight challenge. This also created arrogance and elitism among the more experienced players, mostly PvPers who just need to understand more of the game to remain competitive. The lack of challenge and learning how to do things while playing the PvE game also widens the gap between PvE and PvP more and more.

ANet's solution is making the game more casual. Casual PvP and stuff like that.



Let us hope it does not turn out that GW2 will have...:

* Easy mobs
* Easy missions
* Powerful PvE skills
* Powerful legal cheat items (aka consumables)
* "Complete build" skills like Ursan Blessing

High End PvP would still be inaccessible for most players. Not that I want to advocate that everyone should play PvP, I almost exclusively play PvE myself.

At the same time, PvE would be totally dumbed down to collecting some shiny weapon and armor skins, playing Barbie, and grinding a ton of very questionable titles, the second wave of titles we got was no longer about what you already did with that char, but counting numbers of doing things over and over.

Grind which was branded a bad thing when marketing Prophecies now became a core mechanic of PvE progress and gameplay. With many skills being tied to the title, despite flat scaling, and being char instead of account based, this is just the typical grind that the usual MMOs employ to keep people playing.


Ursan is just one more fatal and flawed design decision of many that happened with GW:EN and before.

I can live with the bears, or better, just ignore them and do my own thing. This is the usual silly advice given by people that so awfully depend on UB to people who say it is a bad thing, btw...^^

But if this is the future of GW, GW1 and GW2 are going to be ruined for people who should better play the existing classic progress-quest-MMOs. In fact those are better than GW in the matter of grind and power creep.


GW2 should not become a trivially challenging fee-free graphics showcase with pretty barbie dolls and immense grind.

I started playing GW1 because it was supposed not to be like that. Gameplay is important, and the BEAR makes GW a 5 skill game with little brains required. It is just one of the last examples of dumbing the game down to a super casual target group that is no longer interested in an interesting game at all, but in something I would regard as mindless time-consuming grind to display some flashy titles and item/armor graphics.

There should be more to it, and I am sure even people who totally endorse Ursanway recognize that this would just not be enough to keep people interested and playing for longer periods. But this is the direction GW is heading with Ursans and Co..

I cannot argue with this assertion because it blatantly disagrees with reality.

In my honest oppinion, while i do agree Ursan is an "easy" way out (don't worry, it can still go horribly wrong if the people are complete retards), i don't think it's a bad skill.

It gives casual players a chance to do things without all the hassle and annoyance it would normally bring. Say you indeed play a ritualist as a casual player, having great fun with spirits, weapon spells, ... But after a while you realy want to try out those "harder" area's. However, no one wants you there, and your trustworthy heroes/henchies don't survive there.

Ursan Blessing gives you chance to actually do that part of GW, without all the annoyance of hours upon hours of LFG spamming.

The only way to truely promote balanced PvE teams aswell is indeed, to make PvE harder, but not as in the "more HP, more damage, more armor"-way Anet used when they designed their "high-end" area's.

Make PvE harder by giving them decent, state-of-the-art, AI with kickass skillbars and good build synergy. Indeed, oddly enough, make it more like PvP against AI. Put a decent monk backline in every PvE mob and people will be crying for a mesmer to strip the enchants, interupt the key skills, ...

The approach Anet took is, in my oppinion, dead wrong. Instead of creating these "elite" area's where only hyperdefensive builds survive (and giving us overpowered PvE skills to create that hyperdefense), They should be making it harder simply because it is, in essence, harder to play against the foes in such area's (they're more creative, use better skillbars, ...). Make mobs that keep melee classes snared, blind paragons and rangers, shut down monks, strips enchants, ... All in all, make PvE mobs more or less use balanced (or even inbalanced) GvG builds. Give them hard resses and res signets.
There is no need for every raptor to be the same brainless assassin. Make a mob that goes :

W/E Raptor
W/Rt Raptor
E/Mo Raptor
Me/Rt Raptor
Mo/A Raptor
Mo/A Raptor

and you have the same cute 6-pack of rapotors coming towards you, and it might take a while before you know who's who (you could add slight color differences between classes and so on as visual aid), but hey, it's more challenging than nuking the sh*t out of 6 poor assassins.

That way you'll actually have to fight a decent fight even in PvE. That way you'll need those odd classes that are left behind in nowadays PvE. That way you'll be encouraged to know more about the actual skill diversity and game mechanics.

And even better, that way there's no way in hell anyone, anywhere, is gonna solo anything. (i'd like to see you solo a balanced team).

This is to reply to Upier also..

No, because UB fundimentally changes the profession that plays it. Why?

What other profession has by nature +xx armor as it's base, or +yyy more health than any other profession without any kind of buff?

UB uses no secondary skills, has no attribute line other than norn rank(it's primary attribute_. By each and every measure it's a new primary proffesion.

An Me/e me/n, me/x is still a mesmer as it it governed by base mesmer armor, and the FC attribute. When a primary attribute changes it means you are playing a different profession.

Making use of a secondary profession to supplement your primary is fine, and is one of the great things in GW. To replace your primary profession with a new primary one is an entirely different matter.

This is what segregated the all xyz teams, they used secondary and inherit primary professions to show what could be achieved with innovative team builds in a single profession . Replacing primary and secondary profession with a fixed 5 skill new one neither innovative not representitive of the original profession.

If I had a button on my skill bar that meant I could switch from fast casting primary to say divine favor or soul reaping would I still be a mesmer or a monk or Necro?

I'd be a Monk or Necro right?

Ursan does the same. At the cick of a button I turn my primary attribute from fast casting to Norn faction rank.

Sure, but the same skills apply to all other team builds. My point is that it condenses a team build into an usran and ursan support(monk). Not into snare, denial, damage, damage mitigation and healing that other builds require. It destroys diversity, by the nature of the very skill it *has* to.

Ursan IS a profession dressed differently(as to why see above). since you are not using your 'born with' profession it is logical to state you did'nt achieve that goal using your 'born with' profession.

Secondary professions are great, but they are subservient to the primary one in that they have restrictions placed on them.

Been to DoA recently, how many balanced teams form there, been to ToA and seen how many many balanced teams form. I realise that not every single team will be Ursan but even now, in most elite areas they are very much in the majority. What will happen when Anet release the rewards for for GW2? people will want to zerg stuff as easily as possible. if it still remains as it is now then the Ursan build will become even more popular.

I used Ursan once, months(when gwen first came out) ago for some fun. It felt horrible and the most non mesmer I had ever played so I vowed never to use it again. I'm not such a control freak i'll enforce my views on others but I do ask them to really consider the consequences of it's use.

Point is that this player WILL have Mallyx statue, and without problems.

Do you think that someone who does not understand even basics of point distribution to attributes should be able to?

Too late. See Grim Eye, that was totally ridiculous assumption. I can count exactly two people who dont LFG as U or Mo. One is Smiter (monk) and other other is ... urg..tank (which could be some misguided self description of person running ursan.). Groups do NOT look for anything else, btw. Not even godmode paragons (!)



Maybe anet went with "they dont care what they do as long as they look pwetty and are in group". Hence, ursan.

Making "All mesmer groups" could have been begining of slippery slope which took us to where we are now.

When my party is short of nuking I load a fire build.
When my party is short of blind, I load an air build.
When my party is short of wards, I load an earth build.
When my party is short of snares, I load a water build.
When my party is short of a monk, I go E/Mo and healprot.
When my party is short of a ritualist, I go E/Rt and ritualize.
When my party is short of a mesmer, I go E/Me and deny.
When my party is short of a paragon, I go E/P and shout.
When my party is short of a warrior I don UB and smash face.

I do have a character of each profession, know how to play them and use them whenever reasonable, it's just that for many situations it's counterproductive to stray away from the primary character because of the reward mechanism. How does UB diminish build diversity when it adds to it? How does it make me a bad player that I can fill several slots as required with just one character?

When my party is short of winning, it UBs.



And can you blame us? With UB we can't possibly lose. We had a pretty hard time doing Dzagonur Bastion and Eternal Grove on HM, so after a few failed attempts, most of us went UB (with a Monk or two) and destroyed everything. Yay for easy Legendary Guardian!

It was so much fun that I quit playing for a month just to recover from the sheer awesomeness that is UB.

While this sounds completely reasonable - you are forgetting one thing.
You are using PvP rules to explain why something is off in PvE - but those rules do not apply in PvE.
The Minotaurs in the desert are using Strength skills, fight in melee but have 3 pips of energy regen.
Are they rangers or are they warriors?


And I also don't see why we should differentiate between a warrior playing a bear and saying that he IS NOT playing a warrior, yet at the same time the ele that is using 8 monk skills IS playing an ele. Yet nothing about the heart and core of the ele class says that they are able to heal others.
He is able to do so though the use of skills from his secondary class.
The warrior is able to play the bear because PvE doesn't follow the rule that one can have access to skills from ones primary and secondary attribute also.
So, what's the problem here?

player rules and monster rules are different in any game(ever see how fast the computer can build stuff in C&C). You can't really compare players and mobs. You have to compare player and player builds.

The one item that distinguishes one profession from another is the primary attribute. An ele may play a 100% monk bar but it's still an ele. It has ele armor levels, an ele energy levels and the energy storage attribute.

No matter what skills it has it's still an ele with all the pros and cons of that class. If somehow I could dress Shan in ele armor, and use all ele skills would that make Shan an ele? No I'd be a draughty mesmer using ele skills.

Ursan turns the ele into something else. It may look like an ele, but it has ursan armor levels, ursan energy, and the norn rank primary attribute.

We're straying from the point tho. Ursan is negativley affecting the team builds used in the game, see the screenshot above for a prime example.

PvP thinking has nothing to do with it, it's common sense. As I said I'm, in no position to enforce my views on others but I think even the most pro Ursan advocate must acknowledge that a GW with just 1 main PvE build in elite areas is a poor state of affairs, and not a reflection of the aims of a multi proffesion, multi player game. Or maybe, in general people don't care about such things anymore, to be damned with everything else so long as one gets ones shiny statue

Okay.

I play necromancer - to PUGs, I'm a Flesh Golem MM, SS and extremely rarely a BiP.

To my alliance, I'm a death nuker (Icy Veins), SSer, SVer, FoC, tank (AotL MM), OoU MM, b/p (N/R MoP). I could nuke or heal/restauration/spirit spam, but I never got to try the first one and I'm an offensive, midliner necromancer. So why not melee? They're already used to see me playing different builds, hell different PROFESSIONS on one character. I wanna go damage tank? I can with Ursan.

But most of the time, you'll see me as one of the others. I think that what I forgot to mention is that Ursan, to me, is just another build amongst the ones I run. Sometimes I feel like MMing, sometimes I feel like SSing, sometimes I feel like playing death nuker, I run N/R MoP barrager in Urgoz/ToPK, and sometimes I feel like going Ursan. But before running N/R, I played the R part as a primary profession. Same with nuking. I'll have nuked on an elementalist primary before nuking on a necro.

And I doubt I'm the only one. Hell, I'm NOT the only one because I have a friend, necromancer player, who thinks quite like me but likes to play support as well (something that aside a monk you'll barely see me doing). He goes Ursan every now and then, but remains a necromancer. My monk friends have similar mindset - ZB prot, RC prot, WoH heal, HBoon, LoD, SoR, etc... Ursan when they feel like being melee on their main.

It's just another build we can run. From tmakinen's post, I can tell our alliance folks aren't the same thinking the same.

EDIT after reading Shaenari's post: Yes, I'm a necromancer. I have soul reaping as my main attribute, and under Ursan it helps a lot since I can stay in "bear mode" longer than anyone else in my team without outside energy management (such as a zealous weapon - I've played Ursan as an ele as well, and I prefer the SR bonus rather than the E. Storage). I have lower armor level than the warrior beside me, however, which requires me to sometimes having to kite because I can't take as much hits as he takes. I might need a prot if we have one. If the monks are rushing and the "wall" works well without me, I'll get out of Ursan and will BR them. Same with res (I tend to run with Rebirth to res fast and take the person away from the mob, and I'm a necro so... energy problems, lol?) - anyways, if I'm not back at max energy soon enough, it means my team isn't killing because SR is triggered when enemies die.

I agree it is just another build, and yes it can be fun but it should not be the only one people can run and can play. Thing is it's insidious. People see it being effective and an easy way to win, so they run it, others then see the same and they run it. Sooner or later it's now the dominant build. We know it happens as we've seen it time and time again in HA and GvG.

An analogy maybe. While it may be ok to run super polluting cars doing 1 mpg sooner or later there is a price to pay. In this(GW) case teams being made that are pretty much only ursan in certain areas of the game(and spreading). Now if you want to run 1 mpg car I cant stop you, but the effects on the environment affect us all. Same with Ursan.

You might get SR benefits, but whats the primary attribute that effects how much health and damage you do when you click the yellow button? Also in builds I've seen often Ursans are shielded by wards, cosumables etc which put them over the armor cap so inherent armor does'nt really matter

Just my 2p

This whole situation makes me realize Mike Judge is right and idiocracy is sooner than he thought.....

Let me do ____________, cause i find it fun.
It's not harming your own gaming experience.
You have the same option.
Stop telling people how to play.


I love how people resort to this argument. We can insert anything in the blank space and justify anything with this.

It makes no difference if the idea is an exploit, a smart idea, or a stupid idea.

What worries me is what UB says about Guild Wars 2.

This skill isn't exactly subtle, ANet knew what it did and how it worked, and they added it anyway. This means that they intentionally dumbed down PvE, which wasn't exactly rocket science to begin with. They felt that having one skill replace all other skills, and all professions except monk, was a good idea, and they felt so during the development of Guild Wars 2.

A magic button the most clueless rusher wammo can click and instantly be able to play with the best.
Hell, they even intentionally designed the skill so it requires no thought at all beyond clicking each skill as it charges, and it rewards rushing!

Is this a sign of what's to come with GW2? Insane catering to the lowest of all common denominators?

Does not bode well.

Indeed. It is a great fake argument to avoiding reasoning why something is broken or not broken.

I like biting off the heads of living chickens. People tell me it is wrong, but it is my personal choice to do so, because it is fun. Nobody is forced to do that, after all.