Ursan....Thoughts?

By the way, I don't care what anyone thinks of me by me saying this, but if your going to flame me for my opinion of Ursan, you need more important things to worry about.

I like Ursan because it has allowed me to Pug DOA and UW and complete it. I play a ranger, and it would be a hell of a lot of trouble to get a group in a dead area, and learn my position. I don't want to BiP on a ranger. So when Ursanway came, I was able to have a team of 8 humans to clear DOA, and it was not stressful to learn my role. Takes no skill you might say, but you still have to focus target, watch aggro range, and guard monks with bodyblocking.

UW didn't need to be Ursanway'ed, an alliance group of mine could have cleared it with a normal build using an Obsidian Tank, but...4 hours versus 2.5 hours with Ursans is a lot more appealing to more casual players. Besides, I hate Obsidian Tank.

Anyway, that's the enjoyment I got out of Ursan, would prefer if you didn't take it away from me, but this is the internet, so no one cares what I think right?

Question: Didn't it occur to you are you no longer play class you enjoy, i.e. that you are no longer a ranger?

You could have used any other toon and it would be the same...

Now, if you are no longer playing Ranger, why didn't you do those areas with other characters/classes more welcome there?

Monuments are not transferrable. I vanquish using ranger builds, but I dont want to do DOA with a ranger build. and that build doesnt even use bows.

Good point i do not hate the skill itself or what so ever.
What i dislike it that if you wanna roll with the people in DoA is that they exclude you course they think my title show my skill.
though luck for them they never seen me play the game my Lb is low like 5 near 6 but i play since the beginning and did some serious damage there with more proffessons.
Let those players judge me by how good i play the game itself not what they think my title shows.
IMO it just shows there fragile mental state course they think this is THE WAY of playing GW has 1235 PvP skills they are made to be used i one way or another.

as i said to the other lad in a quote i do not judge the skill it's just the way how people play that way there is no other way there im still stuck with 15 gemsets.
Only the more higher title rank players think they are to good for me.
And as i said my LB does not show/say my skill only that i whas crazy enough to rank it up to play the content they exclude me from since the title with benefits. (purple heart syndrome)

By removing all professions except ursan and monk, and effectively turning all professions into rushing wammos on steroids?
The answer to insufficient variation is even less variation?

So you'd be OK with an instawin skill? You click it, and all monsters in the zone die and drop their loot. That would make for enjoyable PvE?

I'm not talking 'fair' here, I'm talking 'challenge and enjoyment', which imbalance does not provide.

I think the same people who'd like that instawin skill also like ursan: farmers. Farmers are the bane and scourge of PvE, and it's a shame that ANet have apparently been convinced by a vocal minority that PvE and farming is the same thing.

They obviously don't believe that PvE users are capable of designing their own skillbars, as they gave them a single skill which when clicked turns into a full skillbar of overpowered skills, and made sure that those overpowered skills would require no thought or skill beyond mashing as soon as they recharge.
I guess they figured even PvE players could manage that.

Sup runes are OK in PvE.
Tanks are OK.
Aggro is still being thrown around.
I R TEH KING OF TEH WORLD and it's all about me me ME!11!

Yep - PvE is being farmed rather then played.
I thought that was clear to pretty much everyone.

- All previous builds that can complete DoA + ursan > all previous builds that can complete DoA.

- Yeah! I'm also okay with jews, blacks, gays and arabs as long as they don't come bomb my house. How about you? Are you okay with things that have nothing to do with you?

What takes away challenge of this game?
"Ursan does"
Why?
"Because it's overpowered"
But it doesn't take away challenge if you don't use it.
"..."

And suddenly Little Timmy shuts up and starts paying more attention to what he's saying. For Little Timmy, unlike posters on this board, is an intelligent kid since even when he's being humiliated he learns from his mistakes.

Why do people get the image that if you use Ursan, there is no challenge or enjoyment? The challenge part only applies if you have Good monks, people who can focus target, and people who don't overaggro. Then, some of the challenge is eliminated, because you have co-operation between the ursans.

As for enjoyment, I personally get more enjoyment when i'm suceeding.

What's the point in playing a game if everyone else tells you how to enjoy it?

I remember when Masters of Orion II came out and was all the rage, and everyone said the way to win was by only using the "Creative Research" option when building your race. After a while winning became boring and the natural flow that followed was to not use that option for the sake of getting a thrill from winning. I therefore handicapped myself to become better by NOT using "Creative Research". It was the natural flow of progression from being a poor player who hated trade to a tournament player using trade to my advantage for the win.

Naturally people do this when an area in a game or the game itself becomes too easy. However if you force your idea's of "play how I enjoy it" down someone else's throat people will automatically rebel and either leave the game or play with a poor attitude. I prefer they stay and enjoy the game.

I've known too many people who have left the game due to Ritual Lord Nerfs, and Aggressive Refrain Nerfs. This came from PvP forcing how PvE players play and enjoy the game. Now it seems people are forcing how PvE skills should be conformed to how others should play their PVE game. BECAUSE THEY WANT A HANDICAP forced upon the community by someone else, rather than giving themselves their own HANDICAP.

Either way its a handicap (self induced or ANET induced) so give it a rest already. Don't be a hypocrite; If you want to handicap yourself thats fine but don't go and handicap someone else just to boost your own ego.

^^ Good post mate

Sorry, but I have seen MORE pugs forming since UB was introduced to DOA than the months leading up to it. There was a period where DOA was reduced to farming builds not clearing builds. UB at least seems to be bringing back the concept of actually clearing the areas again not just farming the easy parts of a zone. I would call this a massive improvement.

Who cares if it is easy for Timmy the noob (aside from the usual suspects in this and every ursan thread) atleast now he has a chance at a pug. Like anyone would take Timmy as an OB tank .. if Timmy puts some effort into it he can easily get a UB group.

The true casual player NEVER got a group in DOA anyway. Nothing changed.

I dont think its a matter of forcing someone to play a certain way.

But rather...look around and see the current state of the gameplay.

Is the effects of Ursan positive for the community and the game?
Is the effects of Ursan positive for the game only?(at expense of the community)
Is the effects of Ursan positive for the community only?(at expense of the game)

I think in its present state, Ursan creates a very dangerous situation, since it completely nullifies almost any and all gameplay challenge which is very detrimental to the game, even though it has some positive effects to the players.

I never knew what this was until now, lol. I am still not 100% familar with everything in EoTn, skills, towns, etc. I have beaten EoTn but that doesn't mean i know everything about it, hehe.

That is true in part. I use Ursan-way from time to time for farming, vanquishing, or to get pass a particular annoying/time-consuming area. For me, I worry more when a new or less experienced player rushes ahead in the game to get Ursans Blessing because they read it is great 'build' and not taking the time to learn the game itself. For example, Ursan-way is not 'invincible' if you pull/aggro more enemies than your group can handle. Either way, I don't care if they leave it or nerf it seeing as GW2 is not too far off and all this will be irrelevant.

You and those thinking UB is the cause of the decline or a possible cause need to consider one thing. Perhaps .. it is Anet's response to a game on the downhill slide to becoming a ghost town.

EVERY outpost has fewer people in it each month. People do NOT group together unless forced to. If they have 10% of the copies sold actually playing the game I would be shocked. I am not preaching the sky is falling just stating what anyone that actually still plays can already see. Go through and get all the protector titles in a week and you will see how dead the towns are.

UB has actually gotten people to CLEAR UW. There are ACTUALLY groups forming for it now not just 16/16 monk LF.... I am sorry I do not see the downside that you must see.

If you still find ANY area a challenge I would love to hear what it is. Every area in PVE land is the same challenge (none) once you know the patrol pathing. This skill just helps Timmy the noob find others to play with.

/agree100%

maybe soon all the people complaining about ursan will realize they are beating a dead horse. and the people who support it are also beating a dead horse, with ursan strike. Just agree to disagree, and move on with your virtual lives.

I dont think the UB is the cause of any decline. I would agree that it has possibly increased activity (hence my comment about being good for the community).

I think it makes the game too easy. I think this is bad. Simple as that.

Even with Ursan in place, I actually had zero incentive to clear UW until the Eternal Sword was revealed.

We can attribute Ursan to making pugs easier, but I wouldn't say that its the only motivating factor.

I only really find a challenge in pvp nowadays.

But...how I feel about the challenge of an area doesn't change the fact that an area is supposed to a certain amount of difficulty (because I do not represent everyone). This is built into the design of areas and monster choices and patrol choices.

My opinion about that difficulty should matter less than Timmy the noob. Its supposed to be hard, thats why Timmy the noob finds it hard. If Timmy can instantly negate the need to know the area, to have knowledge of how to play and can just mash buttons to beat an area, this is good for Timmy.

But this isn't good for the game. The quality of a game is directly correlating to its integrity and maintaining good design principles.

Ursanway may make the game easier, but it doesn't make it better.

Imo, Ursan way is nothing more than an super-exploit. Its a broken skill. Its no different from using any skill thats more powerful than balanced game mechanics should allow. I remember when Thunderclap didnt end...and you could have continuous KD. That was a hell of a skill.

Now I know you'll say something like..."Oh its pve, pve doesnt need to be balanced."

If every monster dropped 100k, that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

If you gained 20 levels on your first kill, that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

If you can defeat any area of the game based on one skill,that would make some people happy, but its not a good game design decision.

That's really all there's to say about it. Very good post.

Theres a balance between pleasing your customers and actually having a good game just as there should be a balance between monster strength and player strength.

A company could do everything the players wanted, and those players would be very happy, but you would end up with a crappy fanservice game to players who already arent established in the system.

That is probably the best post I've ever seen regarding this topic, Lyra.

Sorry but UB is not instawin .. so many people still fail with it that it should be left in as a basic IQ test.

I think pugs actually forming again in a game on the decline far out weighs the negatives. Timmy will still have to learn patrol pathing and agro management to survive .. UB or not. UB just gives Timmy a better shot at getting a group to do it.

Good design principles really do not apply to a game with no further chapters planned. UB 32 months ago .. YES I would have been 110% behind you on removing it. 32 months into a game losing players at an alarming rate .. sorry it is a much needed breath of life.

Guilty as charged .. I abused the hell out of Thunderclap in PvP when it was broken and enjoyed every second the opposite side was sitting down

NO.
PvE needs to be balanced.
But it NEVER was.
That's why I don't have a problem with Ursan.
It's just as bad as every other idea since the begging of GW PvE.

It's just that this time - the players aren't getting screwed.

Please, let's not talk about good game design decisions. Since when was boosting enemies well over the level cap, giving them infinite energy, half casting time on all spells, faster attacking speed, moving speed, and an extra skill or two and calling it Hard Mode a "good game design decision"?

So one bad decision justifies another? I don't think so.

How would you "balance" PvE? I'm not saying "How could you do such a thing!!!" but I'm asking what you would do.

No. Lets.

Hard mode was a good design decision. Creating a mode that gives players a more engaging and challenging experience. Hell ya. The implementation however falls rather flat on its face. Hard mode isn't even really harder, just longer. Same enemy, takes longer to kill. And taking more time isnt the same as being harder.

They could have created balanced monster mobs with excellent skill synergy that require player skill, random patrol pathing. Good AI tactics, etc. But no..they cheaped out and used the "add 10 levels and lets call it a day" syndrome.

So what did you actually have to say?

- There's a magical number where monster strength vs. player strength is in harmony with what players expect. Cheat here is the freedom of choice to select how difficult game we would like to play through our skill decisions. Ursan is the "very easy" mode, nothing else. Those who want to remove Ursan from the game really just want to take away this freedom of choice.

- It's too easy to just say "better AI". Try those charr groups in Ascalon. Lingering Curse, Power Block and Eviscerate are all worthwhile elites to use.

Most players will not think "wow, what an overpowered skill this is," they will think "wow, I've gotten much better at this game!" They won't be seeing Ursan as an "easy mode."

- I'm talking about this game, not what some imaginary players are feeling.

That's interesting because I am talking about this game, and it's the common player that I'm referring to.

I have not read such an unconstructive post in a long time.

I don't think it's any more nonconstructive than yours. He's saying he's telling you how he feels, you're talking about what most players feel when you have no clue of what most players feel.

I think based on the general fact of how many people consider healing as a monk to be the best route and how many people consider Healing Hands the best choice on a warrior that I'm not too far offtrack.

Freedom of choice? Hardmode is supposed to be hard. Going into hardmode and turning it into easy mode is a very contradictory to its purpose and design.

Its like jamming a square hole in a round peg. Think about it.


I dont want to remove it. I want it balanced so it doesn't slaughter anything and everything. Its a cool concept but its really overpowered.

At the same time, i dont want it nerfed so it becomes utterly useless.
It should be good (to warrant being a PVE skill), but not too good.

Imo the best balanced PvE skills enhance and can coexist with existing skills and builds. But those builds would still work even without the PvE skill enhancing it.

Have used it for everything on my warrior since September, kthx.

Good for them, but out of curiousity, how did you manage to achieve the ultimate power of the human mind to read another mind, despite the distance, and understand exactly what they feel? There are a lot of Guild Wars players too, and did you feel what they all felt? If not, are you just assuming what players are feeling based on your logics?

Last time I went into a pickup group in Factions, I had two elementalists claiming that they can heal a lot better than normal monks. Later in Nightfall, I had a ranger who uses healing spells and claims that he can heal. I'm currently doing Temple runs, and I usually bring Arcane Mimicery to see what elites people have.
Here's a short list to what the warriors have:
Eviscerate, Cleave, Charge, Hundred Blades, Triple Chop, Ursan, Life Barrier.

Are you sure you know what the general population thinks?

Lastly, if you people really want a game where skills are truly mattered, Ursan and other PvE-only skills will never exist in it, it will be truly challenging as battle strategies change nearly every month from skill balancing, and you get to show off your skills to the general public through the Observe channel and win expensive prizes, why don't you just play PvP?

I'll answer that in this post.

That's just the thing: A prot monk is much more viable than a healing monk. It's better on the energy and damage mitigation. So saying "I can heal better than a monk" is...not terribly impressive, most especially when Eles can deal some nice damage and Rangers are the best interrupters (and anyone can heal, it's the quality of healing that matters.)

You read too much into that. I'm saying people have a narrow sense in terms of what's good, or the best route, for their class. For a long time I ran a sword warrior build with Battle Rage and Mending. Frankly, I thought I was the shit. It wasn't until a couple months after that I started experimenting with Dragon Slash and focusing more into my Warrior attributes that I saw how much ass I could really kick.

My point? It takes a lot, and awhile, for people to realize what they're doing. And when Ursan is that powerful,

(and honestly, the fact that you saw warriors with Life Barrier kinda proves my point.)

So, if I wanted a PvE game where my skill mattered, I shouldn't play Guild Wars? You sure you want to advocate that?

And I'll comment on your older post since I came late to this party thread:

That's kinda silly. Why is it sad that Hard Mode was implemented to be challenging? It's called Hard mode. I think you're assuming a bit too much into ANet's expectations...

It's not "hurting my pride", it's just kinda contradictory and - to be a little bit harsh - stupid: Why give a key to make Hard Mode easier when Normal mode is easy enough??

Depends on the demands of the general population and who the general population is. Based on what I've said above of the "common player", I'd rather that they didn't.

They shouldn't listen to the general population for the same reason that (as Avarre kinda stated in a similar thread) skill aren't balanced around Random Arenas.

My point is, the so-called narrow sense in terms of what's good only applies to a minority of the population as we noted the variety of builds people can come up with, while no one needs to force them into doing anything. Secondly, it doesn't take long for people to realize the game mechanics and how to make effective builds. How? Go to PvXwiki and choose a build from the working - great section.

In addition to that, you need to note that most of us do not rely on our guilds or alliance when comes to a mission or a dungeon. We usually H/H or PuG, and many of us are stuck with the latter as players do perform a bit better than A.I's from time to time. Warriors with Life Barrier is a good example to the difficults we have to face with average PuG's as many casters would often try to tank. Ursan is more or less just another Life Barrier to avoid the trouble caused by our average PuG's.

If you don't believe me, here's a good example:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10232557

Your skills in a PvE instance only matters to you and the people who care about that. Unfortunally, the rest of the community don't really care. And when you try to force your way down to other people, it doesn't work for us. In which means, PvP could be better choice for you, as it meets your standards better, and PvP is part of Guild Wars.

It's not really assumptions. We don't need a Karl Marx to explain to us the basic theory to economics about the basics of marketing. The existing players of Guild Wars will be a major contribution to the sales of Guild Wars 2, and thus it's not surprising that Anet creates a new option for the general population to enjoy Hard Mode, so that Anet can ensure these players to play until the release of Guild Wars 2; of course, if you want challenge, that option is available too.

To be honest, the reason for implementing Hard Mode to be challenging is really your reason to play Hard Mode. However, for the rest of us, we have different reasons. Whether it's just time we are trying to kill or the few accomplishments we are trying to achieve, it does not affect you. In simple words, you do not have the rights to force your reason to play a game onto another person.

Anet spent months into making Hard Mode, and after it's release, hardly anyone plays or even tries it out. This leads me to a question, why implement Hard Mode for months just to satisfy a few people who are willing to try it, when you can satisfy the general public by making an additional expansion or campaign?

Relevantly, would you care to explain a confusion I have in real life. In order to get an admission to a university straight from high school, you need an A average or more, and for universities in United States, SAT scores are also needed. However, you can attend any community colleges if you meet one of the following requirements: you are at the age of 21 or you have graduated high school. Just a note, a college student can transfer to a university with credits to university courses, and there are no GPA requirements in doing so. What's the point in going straight to university from high school, while you have to work so hard for your grades when you can just go to college and transfer?

Your so-called common players are really inexperienced or perhaps new comers, who still struggle in making builds. In all honesty, the general population I'm refering to is the casual players, which is the majority of the population, and as much as I know, they don't struggle in making builds.

Eh?
FoW.

They suck at it and think they're the best.
Agreed on not having the option to, but again: FoW.

And the bad won't even make an effort to become better.


Ursan made PvE even more rediculously easy than it already is, and to boot people expect you to grind grind grind until its R10 anyway.
Trying to PuG FoW has never been harder. And nobody even does Trapping anymore: And that affects me and has changed something for me.

If a skill will cut "time" down for me to get something done I'm going to use it. After 30 months of playing this bloody game I don't need to prove to anyone I'm "skilled" by bringing a so-called "normal" skill bar. If you think you're too good or too proud to use Ursan then don't! It's your time not mine so I could care less. I see alot of Ursan = teh suck in this thread. What if a high ranked PvPer decided to use Ursan because it was convenient or "put any reason here" does this mean he's an epic failure? Ursan = autofail = you are naive

In my situation I've found it alot faster to clear UW with Ursan because quite frankly my guildies aren't always around and even then they don't always have the right professions to fit the job. Forming an Ursan group is easier and quicker at times.

For some people Ursan and the like are a blessing. Without it their profession would never have been accepted into groups in certain areas. (yes i know about guilds....guess you skipped the previous paragraph)

If "insert any skill" + Hard Mode = Easy Mode then I've accomplished what I intended to do. Conquer. Does this mean I suck? Who cares? I've played 30+ months I don't want to do things the hard/slow/less convenient/more time consuming way. Kthxbye

With millions of skill combinations to choose from and an aged community (alot of us have been around for awhile) if NO ONE can turn Hard Mode into Easy Mode then we definately all SUCK. Thank god that's not the case.