[Dev Update] Exploits and Bans – 10 January 2008

To the 117 who got banned:
1. can anyone care to pm or email me (through guru) if you are one of the first seed players who got into this outpost? I was lead into this outpost through a guildie and he told me that he first got into the hidden outpost AFTER killing Mallyx the normal way, then his client got kicked out/ disconnected and when he reconnected he was landed into this outpost. I just want to collaborate if this version is fact as I only heard it from my guildie.

2. So, if the access method of this outpost is through normal game play - (note that reconnection is normal!) ArenaNet cannot accuse us of hacking or exploit, as has been communicated through all the officially published innuendos (i.e. official GW personnel postings in Guru). If we can prove that the access is through normal game play, what Arenanet has been saying here is designed to defame us to make us look bad (i.e. they are spinning).

3. Personally, I have been kicked out of my guild within 12 hours I told them I've been banned. Lost access to guild web site, vent etc because my guild has a "no hacking" policy. As I do communicate with my guildies through emails, web chat etc, this is causing me stress and anxiety in real life.

4. To those of you who got banned, I'd like to get a defence team setup. If there are lawyers in the group, I'd like to hear from you. We may have a case here.

Thanks
Kai

The EULA stated that ANet could do anything they want to your account. If that includes banning, putting glitter in your hair, turning your skin color to rainbow, or changing your name to "Gookilyglop Funbucks," they can do it.

Since you agreed to the EULA, you don't have much of a case.

Please do this. It would be the funniest thing ever to happen on these boards.

Yet had the line been clear, the point of non-return would be an obvious deterant. Some people just live on the edge.

Dr. Strangelove has given a better reason than I for this:

It means that people will know what they can get away with.

Yep...on target as always.
I want you to write the next EULA when it updates again.

To those that were banned:
READ THE EULA PLEASE.
If you felt un-justly banned...email gaile.

EDIT: *hugz* Chicken, Ryan, and Alex.

But if the line is clear, then everyone and their grandmother will start doing everything not quite ban-worthy, because there's no punishment for doing so.

Offtopic - Doc, Trub and Alex = <3

Sorry, you have to separate two things:
1. Access to outpost - Arenanet can terminate the accounts as per EULA, no worries. They can ban accounts till the cows come home.
2. Defaming those players who accessed the outpost as "hackers" in public forums like guildwarsguru is not protected by the EULA. This is libel.

The statement in the very first post was written thusly (hah, I finally get to use that word!):

It is not implied that all of them were hackers.

Your missing something on the libel issue. Anet did not post ANYWHERE here is a list of the 117 people banned and they are known hackers. All Anet did was state that 117 were banned. The have done the same thing in the past stating they banned 4000 bots in one week. Does that mean those 4000 people can claim libel as well?

Most people wouldn't even know who except you have all come out admitting you where one of the banned. Btw, can't sue a company claiming libel when it is only for an IGN!

I have to agree with Bry and again emphasize that people here need to start reading things very carefully.

It has not been stated that all players are hackers. There are two seperate groups here. The one(s) who are directly responsible for the exploit by using this hack and the others are the players who used the exploit as a result of it.

In another statement made by Gaile, "you get to the outpost by hacking the client, or by using the exploit gained through the client hack.

I just watched a few programmers use every trick in the book, including Guild Halls and other things, to try to end up at that hidden outpost (as a few players have claimed they did.) And the programmers could not make it happen.

You didn't get to the outpost from a crash, a server burp, a roll-back, a glitch with the Guild Hall, or a sacrifice to Grenth. So my point is, some of the banned players may not have done the actual hacking, but they certainly used the exploit that resulted from the hack, and they certainly were able to profit from it.


Nothing in this is confusing. The only people labelling everyone as hackers are those who are labelling themselves without reading through these statements carefully.

And Guru has, in fact, deleted several lists that players have tried to start with the 117 names. Anyone who has been banned, and who's names you might know, are strictly those who have come forward and admitted so themselves.

Lol... everyone who plays this game knows that he/she isn't allowed to use exploits. So why should they first warn you?

Anyways.. i agree with Anet.

Umm so the outpost should be a blank white space? As a former QA game tester for a few years (Not with ANET), I tested games that had areas inaccessible to the normal players. Those areas had graphics as well. Why wouldnt they? Sometimes they're areas that were left over and wont be used in the game or they're just recycled from another area. So your excuse is completely lame.

So do you people who got banned understand why so many don't believe you? Because of the lame excuses and justifications that you're all making. The only valid excuse is if you got dragged to MallyX once and never went back and yet still got banned. But from what you've posted you went back multiple times. And claim to not know it wasnt intended for the general public, because the outpost has graphics? Lame.

Argh, sorry. Arenanet did post it in their dev update wiki page that "only by hacking the client" can the client-hackers access this outpost, so they are banned.
When I found that I'm banned, I posted in my guild web page about this, and my guildies do know about my name, email address, etc so they can identify me. After several hours my access to guild was cut as they have a no hacker policy. This is causing me real stress and anxiety as I can't connect with my guildies of nearly 2 years.
So, by classifying me as a hacker when this access issue is really caused by an ArenaNet bug, I think I have a case of defamation.

poor exploiters(sorry for my mistake mr pie sheesh) got their accounts got banned im reely sorry for them all. nat

Ok klets get One thing straight NO hacking was involved they said that so they could justify their means of getting more money end of story

No. We cannot access this outpost on our player characters, and if an employee were to exploit his/her GM abilities, or use some sort of exploit to attain personal benefit, you can be assured there would be very serious consequences.


Shan: You've raised some interesting points, but one of the first things I'd like to suggest is that we consider that not all who claim they are "testing" are truly testing. Let me give you a for-instance:

• Player A: Hey, I found an exploit.
• Player B: Oh yeah? Well, send a ticket to ArenaNet and let's exploit the heck out of it until they have a chance to close the exploit. Since it's the holidays and all, it may take them a while, and in the meantime, by sending a "I think there may be an exploit" report, we (and as many people as we choose with whom to share this "secret info") have free access to all the riches we can farm.

The point is, a report is very very helpful, but it cannot be seen as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card. If that is what is appears I've said, I apologize. It is possible to reconstruct these things, and the people who report and continue farming are doing the wrong thing, even if they did the right thing in reporting. We know of cases where people have farmed an exploit and waited until it appeared to be nearing resolution, upon which they reported it, hoping to slide under the radar as an exploiter.

We are going to review things, of course. We greatly appreciate reports and yes, there is some latitude towards those who report, within reason. When we review appeals, if there is any possibility of fairly and rightfully restoring an account, we will try to do so. I've offered to help in any way that I can, and I know our QA, Support, and Content Programming Teams are all working to resolve each individual case in the best possible way -- for the player and for the game.


Those sending exploit details: We are testing, but so far are not able to establish that any of the methods you suggest are workable. (Yes, we know this is corrected on Live; we can test in pre-existing state on another server.) Hacking the client did work, that's without doubt. Partying with someone who hacked the client did work, and yes, once someone was there, it appears that he/she could be a ferry into the hidden outpost for others. But we have not yet found any other means to get into the hidden outpost in order to exploit the Mallyx portion of the DoA mission. However, we will spend as much time as needed to test this in order to resolve any reports. Thank you for letting us know your thoughts and suggestions.

Nope. 1...2...3...4...117

EDIT: Gaile came back, and states the same..
/wave Heyas Gaile!

Sorry, but I have to make a correction: Please submit a Support Ticket. Support is gathering and reviewing all appeals. ArenaNet is involved in setting parameters and may be involved in assessing the appeals. But emailing or PMing me is not going to be fruitful -- appeals must go through Support.

well thats new : D because i know alot of people who were banned over this and they NEVER hacked
hope that sounds familiar Gaile

Gaile said "Only by hacking the client, or partying with someone who had done so, could a player access that outpost." This is a direct quote from the first page of this thread and the dev update page (with my emphasis).

I'm very sorry that you've had to go through this, but it is not ANet's fault that your guildies are not actually reading what's going on. ANet has not called you a hacker - they are saying you used the exploit that was CAUSED by a hacker. There is no defamation here.

Hello Everyone 101 of 117 here,

First off let me say grats to the staff at A Net & Play NC. Good Job guys you guys caught us feasting on stolen food. We did not steal your food I just eat it and it was good. As for guys closeing this little town off to the normal ppl... you didn't, I still have access to The Ebony Citadel of Mallyx how and why I'm not saying.

Secondly I heard lots of very diffront ways of getting into this "hidden" outpost. what's true, what's not, I honestly don't know so I can't say. what I do know is that we feasted on this stolen bread (wether it was a few crumbs or half the loaf). Oh but wait I'm not saying that I knew it was stolen when I was feasting, I honestly had/have no idea how the first of us got in there. But some found the keys to the bakery and well everyone here knows what happened.

Thirdly I have no intention of starting over (unlike others). NO ONE BELIEVES THE GUILTY right, that's why you labeled all of us as HACKERS. But I'm not mad at you guys over there at a net and play nc, someone was messing with your game and THIS TIME YOU COULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. and what I mean is all this is, is to show the GW community that you can stop this sort of thing(what ever this thing here is).

I'm say this again,
NO ONE BELIEVES THE GUILTY.
problem is your planeting evidence here by calling us HACKERS.

Do not believe these lies. To any of you amongst the 117 you know that we have submitted appeals via email to the Support Team. Our suport tickets have all recieved the EXACT same reply. We have not been treated as individuals, but as a group. They have not taken a single moment to evaluate our individual actions, but instead continue to group us as a single entity. Why must you continue to feed these people lies? We did not hack. You did not need to do the mission at least 4 times. And sending in a support ticket will get you nothing but an automated response. They are reviewing nothing. We have already recieved an email stating our accounts have been terminated and that appeals will not be given any light. I hope you read my post to the general Guru community. Your statements have led to wrongful defamation of both our online and real life character. As you want us held responsible for our actions, you should be responsible for yours. Stop putting out statements that hold no truth.

That is where suspensions, temporary bans, and permanent bans come in. To just permanently ban everyone whether they visited the outpost once or a thousand times is unjust. It is further unjust to discriminate against this set of "cheaters" while let others that did a similar token go.

Geezus. Even if you didnt hack but still went along for the ride to exploit the result of someone else's hack, it's still illegal. If your friend kicked in the front door of a house and you went in to rob it, you're still guilty of breaking in and robbing the joint, especially when you keep going back to the house with the broken front door.

People knew damn well that the shortcut to MallyX was illegal and farmed it multiple times. They can't claim innocence after going back repeatedly.

The Anet staff are doing their best to review every case. I'm sure the automated responce is ..well..... automated. You're appeal will be reviewed in time so maybe be patient. Afterall you appeared to of broken the law, you can't say "didn't do it" and wonder off, you have to go through the whole justice system

Why did people get away for the Zaishen chest???? that was an exploit of great magnitude i know people during that who got rare drops

Not true. Spamming WTS in all chat is bannable, that's why we have a trade channel.

They didn't defame anybody here. Gaile stated what ANET's findings and actions were. Nobody named anybody. Some of you came forward. Some of you contradicted yourselves and had difficulty adding the number of times you abused an exploit. Some players in the community, like me, said you guys cheated and some of you lied. If you personally didn't hack, then you abused an exploit and cheated.

It is not ANETS fault your guild has banned you too. It might be something you need to clear with your guild leader. He/she might just be trying to ensure none of this mess splashes onto his guild and boards. I can't blame him there.
If they have your email, I would think you have theirs. Email them and sort it out.

If you think you have a case of defamation, go for it. You cheated, you got caught, you got banned, you outed yourself on these boards. As Inde said, some people have tried to put up lists, and the mods have deleted them. Only those that decided to show their faces are the ones we know about. Unless you had come here and posted what you did, nobody in guru would have ever known you were one of them.

Gaile, has Anet learned something about possible vulnerabilities of the client from this experience, and what steps Anet is taking to improve security to prevent possible future hacks?

I read an article in a magazine, you have probably heard of it, PC GAMER, And it was talking about problems with EULAS. MOST EULAS, can only be read after you buy a game. I E you spent the money. Even if you dont agree, Do you get a refund? IN this magazines EXSTENSIVE RESEARCH, no. ONLY WORLD OF WAR CRAFT gave the money back to the customer, who disagreed, wrote to them, and asked a refund.

GUILD WARS WAS TESTED IN THIS>
The magazine said, that there are OODLEs of people being banned from online games everyday, because of glitches in the games themselves. Many people have tried to sue, many people have commited suicide, and or killed others. Everyone knows of a case where a friend gave a sword to a guy who sold it on ebay and was then murdered. The point is, These games, Are being taken to seriously by 99% of the communities, YET NO ONE READS THE EULA.

WHY DOESNT ANYONE READ THE EULA?
Because it doesnt matter. A game company can ban anyone, whenevere the want, and theres no conciquences to them, other than that they already made their money.

I encourage everyone to LOOK UP this article. It was very good/informative. Then if you dont belive it, test it yourself. Buy a new copy of guild wars for 50 dollars. install it, Then decide you dont agree with the EULA or CODE OF ETHICS>
Ask for a refund. THey laugh at you all the way to the bank.

That said, Gaile, ITs good to know your teams are actually working on it. I do know about 75 of these banned players. None of us are hackers/exploiters/cheaters in anyway shape or form.

IF research IS being done properly, as you stated, I will hope to be playing my account again soon.

Sorry that I cant believe everything you have posted, as most of its contradictory to itself, or doesnt add up with what has happened.

This post is simply to remind people, EULAS are needed/necissary, so that people cant beligerantly take advantage of a gaming system. so that bans can be enacted when needed etc. However, in this case, the punishment didnt fit the apparent crime, esspecially as most people, as I said I know about 75 of them, didnt even know it wasnt part of the game.

A TIP? Next time someone reports a bug like this, IE PABLO, you could tell people, or put a warning message in the place, saying something like, hey, this place is for admin only. Then people like me who really didnt know, would have left, and never gone back.

EULA = End user Liscenseing agreement.

Scam= taking money from someone , and giving nothing in return, but making them think you are giving them something.

EULA=scam.. Read the article if you can find it.

Puritan

If all the "innocents" here did that then this thread would be like 4 pages long.

But you seem to be confused: The issue isn't about just the hacking, although that is a major concern. The issue is whether someone exploited the game. That is why people who were ferried, and did not actually perform the hack, were also banned. Going to a hidden outpost, cutting off about 80% of a mission, and farming an end-boss in minutes -- when it normally takes a couple of hours to reach him in normal play -- is exploiting the game. And that is against the User Agreement.

Let me give you an example.

• One player hacks the client.
• He finds a way to turn creatures into fluffy bunnies with zero HP.
• He finds that anyone he subsequently takes into a mission also has the Fluffy Bunny Bonus.
• He tells 1,000 friends, family, alliance members, maybe he even sells ferry rides with him to get the Fluffy Bunny Bonus.
• 1,000 people use the cheat.
• Is anyone going to suggest that we should only ban the person who hacked?

Does the user agreement NOT SAY, KNOWINGLY exploits? I didnt knowingly exploit, and I am sure you guys can tell that with your exstensive research?

Ouchies.
Gaile said what you can do if you feel you were unjustly banned.
Please stop trying to compare other online game's EULAS?
We ALL have a screen that pops up when we want to read it...and by golly...the ANet site has one there too!!

To the guru community, had our responses been given a single moments pause for review we would not be posting here. Anet has not given any consideration to those that used the official channel of communication (support ticket).

Oh? Claiming ignorance again, not knowing that being able to repeatedly farm mallyx without doing the pre-requisite 4 areas each time was an exploit? You knew it wasn't legit, and farmed for profit like everyone else involved. You might not be hackers, but you're still exploiters, and still deserving of the ban.

I'm sorry but that's pretty ummm not very smart. You think poking ANET is the way to go?? So you got an account banned... and you go back there with a second account AND post here on Guru that you did for everybody to see?? So ANET goes back, they see that you went in there today, they read your post, they ban your second account.... then you will cry again: ANET Lies, I was only there ONCE, I didn't even kill Mallyx, I was just standing there!!
just wow

And ok maybe you are not a Hacker... but you abused and exploit and cheated... so what do you suggest people call you?

They care what 99% of the community thinks... and we don't like people that cheat and abuse exploits. Hopefully this will deter future exploiters... hopefully.

@ Gaile

I as a player am quite proud of the way ANet has handled this situation. Banning these players was both Fair and Just to those who did not exploit the game. Please continue to ban those who would disrupt the spirit of the game. Rewarding poor behavior by allowing them back in the game only encourages more poor behavior. Do not give into any community pressure from these game exploiters for any reason. Actions without consequence encourage community anarchy.

Many have worked very hard to follow the rules of conduct and have little to show for it. Please respect those players who do follow these rules of conduct by being fair to them, keep the BANS in place.

Thank you...

Once again you show that you have no idea about what actually happened.
1. You need to step up and admit you were wrong in your original statements of labeling ALL OF US hackers. Are you finally willing to admit you lied to the general public about what we are?
2. This 'Fluffy Bunny' did not have zero HP.You had to run through the mission just as you would normally. You had to fight all the waves of mobs, and you still had to kill Mallyx with the same HP he would normally have.
3. There is no bonus, you do the mission. Lather, rinse, repeat as you called it. There is no additional bonus other than the mission itself.
4. Please get your numbers straight instead of now making it like there were thousands of us doing this.
5. Yes, some DIFFERENT action should be taken against the individual that actually HACKED guild wars than the individuals that merely participated in an exploit. Do you honestly mean to tell me you are going to treat hackers and exploiters the same? Hacking is clearly more harmful to the game and its players, so yes, they should recieve a more harsh punishment.