[Dev Update] Exploits and Bans – 10 January 2008 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

GloryFox

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Good ol' USA, where everyone else wants to be

Now Plays World of Warcraft on Whisperwind

12 Jan 2008 at 23:02 - 1481

Quote:

posted by myrealnameismatt
In response to Gaile's post, can you please answer the question that has been asked several times - i.e - why are we banned and not everyone who went down to exploit, specifically.. the Duncan the black glitch that appeared recently? You must admit that there is a direct similarity between the two, maybe not in terms of actual game mechanics, but in the way it appeared to the person doing it? Most of us thought that it was exactly the same deal, a faster way to do something that would eventually be fixed and the precedents had already been set, so let's enjoy it while it's still here.

And as some others have stated, there is nothing worse than having an actual problem and getting an automated answer, if there are only 117 people can we at least speak to a human being? It's not much to ask.

You don't get it she does not have to; so stop asking. Overall it appears that the community as a whole is very glad they did act this time. There has been too much anarchy of late in this game by people thinking its ok to exploit something or someone. Consider it mercy for any situation where they did not perma ban before, instead of thinking mercy is some kind of RIGHT.

Mercy
noun; compassionate or kindly forbearance shown toward an offender, an enemy, or other person in one's power; compassion, pity, or benevolence:

Lady Ana Stacia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

Germany

Beware of our Temper [BooT]

Me/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:02 - 1482

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arwen Granger

Not really trying to show off, but I did do Mallyx the hard way many moons ago: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10146676
After that trip I have not killed Mallyx again, not even during this latest episode, and definitely haven't farmed it repeatedly.

Then in that case I truly hope you do get your account back. :-)

Yes I do believe that there are people who where probably banned for a 1 or 2 time thing and for those they should get there accounts back. For those who knew and repeatedly took part I have no sympathy for.

Drop of Fear

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

W/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:03 - 1483

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clait

Sorry but this whole situation has sapped me of most humor. Please dont say to me "chill out", when thousands of hours of my life have been brushed away in an instant.

...and if u've been blocked by mistake because u only beated mallyx a couple of times i wish u to get yor account back, but i'm fairly confident that a vast majority of the infamous "117" exploited this badly and deeply and laughing at how smart they were and are now just trying to jump on the train leading to redemption hoping a.net to forgive them all.
u understand that unbanning anyone who exploited holes for months is not healthy for this game. or any online game at all right? i don't think this is the point of the discussion really.

amongst the 117 there are some blocked by mistake -and with "by mistake" i dont mean "the ones who didnt hack in the first place"- ? fine, no reason to keep such players banned. but i truly hope that the ones deserving it wont go free, it would be a sad day for guild wars lovers.

Exx The Necro

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jan 2008

12 Jan 2008 at 23:03 - 1484

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

But you seem to be confused: The issue isn't about just the hacking, although that is a major concern. The issue is whether someone exploited the game. That is why people who were ferried, and did not actually perform the hack, were also banned. Going to a hidden outpost, cutting off about 80% of a mission, and farming an end-boss in minutes -- when it normally takes a couple of hours to reach him in normal play -- is exploiting the game. And that is against the User Agreement.

Let me give you an example.

One player hacks the client.
He finds a way to turn creatures into fluffy bunnies with zero HP.
He finds that anyone he subsequently takes into a mission also has the Fluffy Bunny Bonus.
He tells 1,000 friends, family, alliance members, maybe he even sells ferry rides with him to get the Fluffy Bunny Bonus.
1,000 people use the cheat.
Is anyone going to suggest that we should only ban the person who hacked?

I hate to tell you Miss Grey, but nearly everyone who has played GW has found a bug or exploit at one time, and used it. Some over and over, some only once. Is everyone who used said exploits going to be banned? If so, the servers of GW are going to be very empty. If someone hacks these exploits and gets the "Fluffy Bunny" bonus, by all means, Ban them, and with a vengence. But the point is, if you are going to ban people because they used the exploit after it was "hacked" then you better get out a bigger ban stick and ban every single person who ever used any kind of exploit, large or small. I agree people who used the exploit should be punished, but isnt a permaban a little extreme. Or does Anet just take it upon themselves to pick and choose who gets punished and how severly. I said it before and Ill say it again, if Anet is going to ban some people for using an exploit, then they should ban EVERYONE who ever used an exploit, not just 117.
If it was truly a hack, I would hope Anet has the ability to detect who it was and crucify them without mercy, but to permaban a person who used the exploit after the "Hack" is assinine, punish, yes, ban,RESOUNDING NO!

myrealnameismatt

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2007

[any]

W/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:04 - 1485

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

/yawn
Did Duncan's exploit had something to do with hacking?

lol
They benefited from the same thing for less "work" (didn't have to hack client) and should receive lesser punishment?

Losing patience. You know nothing about this subject and have nothing to add apart from an opinion - not a fact, kindly keep it to yourself. Do we really need to put "WE DID NOT HACK" on copy and paste before you understand it?

TheGreatPie

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2008

12 Jan 2008 at 23:05 - 1486

Quote:

You don't get it she does not have to; so stop asking. Overall it appears that the community as a whole is very glad they did act this time. There has been too much anarchy of late in this game by people thinking its ok to exploit something or someone. Consider it mercy for any situation where they did not perma ban before, instead of thinking mercy is some kind of RIGHT.

A-net didnt because there was TOO MANY people exploiting WHICH might I add is biased, if ten people killed one person, they get away with it but one person kills someone and they're condemned to death for it, is that right?????

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

12 Jan 2008 at 23:06 - 1487

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob79

snipzor

You seem to be a cool guy so let me ask you this- how many things that you listed involved hacking?
kthx

Quote:

Losing patience. You know nothing about this subject and have nothing to add apart from an opinion - not a fact, kindly keep it to yourself. Do we really need to put "WE DID NOT HACK" on copy and paste before you understand it?

I don't give a rat's ass if it was you that hacked the client or you friend or your friend's friend. The fact is that hacks were involved. Now cry me a river.
Anyway, since you'll lose patience soon, what will you do? Call me dumbs**t and so on so I won't ever see you in GW or here ever again? Cool.

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet

Join Date: Feb 2005

12 Jan 2008 at 23:06 - 1488

Quote:

Originally Posted by myrealnameismatt

Most of us thought that it was exactly the same deal, a faster way to do something that would eventually be fixed and the precedents had already been set, so let's enjoy it while it's still here.

If you get stopped by a policeman for speeding, do you wonder "How did you miss the guy ahead of me, driving 10 MPH faster?" I think it's human nature, but the answer is clear: "Because I got caught, and he didn't."

In the larger sense, would we ever presume to tell the police department or the criminal justice system, "You didn't catch (or convict) that criminal, therefore you should not try to catch (or prosecute) any criminals?" No, because that's not the way things work. And yes, we're not talking "real life crimes" in this forum, but I'm hoping an analogy will be helpful. Game issues: Should we not block [this poor name] because [that other poor name] hasn't yet been caught? Should we leave every bots unbanned because we cannot ban them all?

I am not here to debate "that other thing" or "those other players." Other players have made it clear why some issues are larger than others, or why they are handled differently. I do understand the question, but I feel it's off the topic at hand. I came here to give you information about the Mallyx exploit, and to assure you that while we realize that we cannot catch everyone who behaves badly, nor every player whose actions can have a negative effect on other players or the game as a whole, we're not going to stop dealing with those whom we do catch, and we are going to continue trying to handle each issue to the best of our ability.

SirJackassIII

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

Belgium

none

N/E

12 Jan 2008 at 23:07 - 1489

Quote:

Originally Posted by myrealnameismatt

In response to Gaile's post, can you please answer the question that has been asked several times - i.e - why are we banned and not everyone who went down to exploit, specifically.. the Duncan the black glitch that appeared recently? You must admit that there is a direct similarity between the two, maybe not in terms of actual game mechanics, but in the way it appeared to the person doing it? Most of us thought that it was exactly the same deal, a faster way to do something that would eventually be fixed and the precedents had already been set, so let's enjoy it while it's still here.

The precedent hasn't been set. It still hasn't after this. The "exploits" in both cases are completely different. In the case of Duncan, there was a bug that opened the door if only 1 person in the party had the 4 areas done. The problem here would be that the same group can't do it repeadedly, since upon killing Duncan, you need someone else that did the 4 areas. Another difference is that the bug was in at the start of the game, so it could have been intended cfr. The Final Assault in SF. The Last Hierophant itself isn't even clear on that issue, since it all 5 bosses are given as objectives at the same time, suggesting there could be a way to kill Duncan before the others. Apparently, this wasn't so.
The difference with Mallyx is that the quest clearly states you have to beat the 4 other areas before going to kill Mallyx. This was in the game since the start. The Exploit allowed you to bypass that requirement and repeadedly kill Mallyx with the same party. Not only that, but the access to it was gained by exploiting the GH trick, which has been on the edge for a while (but too many people used it to ban them all), but it also abused gaining access to a Dev only outpost, originated by a person that apparently hacked the client.

Both cases are completely different. Another problem with the Duncan bug was that far too many people had used this, and a lesser factor is that it had only been there for about a week. The Mallyx hack/exploit was apparently being used by a small group of people over the course of several months, angstly keeping it quiet, yet now they all plead innocent.

I'm sorry their accounts got banned and they lost their characters, but they were abusing an exploit, knowingly and willingly (except maybe the testers...), so I do believe ANet made the right decission. I am however starting to feel less and less sorry because of the extremely lame excuses they're coming up with.

Cab Tastic

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

Rt/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:07 - 1490

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob79

Dear Gaile Grey
PLEASE ANSWER THIS

How many people got banned for using the free Zaishen chest "exploit?"

How many people got banned for getting a free ferry to the end of the game?

How many people got banned for getting a ferry to the deep, to urgoz or to slavers exile?

How many people got banned for /resigning in the Warrior Guild hall to be transported ANYWHERE in the game?

How many people got banned for using fort aspenwood, dragging all the necro npcs to the the base.. owning the other team?

How many people got banned for ferrying people from Kamadan to Consulate docks?

How many people have been banned in ab for dying at a gate and using necro transversal to go through it before the timer starts?

How many people have been banned for taking heros into AB and holding 64v64 matches?

How many people have been banned using the Warrior Guild hall trick to ferry people from Kamadan to LA without taking a quest?

How many people got banned for finding a bugged area while mapping and saw the "end of the world" effect?

How many people have been banned for vanquishing Bukdek Byway.. taking 2 quests.. and having to kill 1 enemy to vanquish?

When you question about how I know about all this, its simple. When you play the game for 30 months you find out about all these "exploits."

To say that ferrying to Mallyx is any different from the above is preposterous. Those guilty of any above are in the same position as this "exploit."

My question is.. Why where these not permanent bans?

Are you serious. It is preposterous to compare all of the above to the Mallyx exploit. The profitablility is 1000's of percent higher.

Messy

huh?

Join Date: Jun 2005

Follow the rainbow, make a left and voila

Guildless

R/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:08 - 1491

I have a question for you guys....

I have never done a Duncan run, but I know for a fact I have been in Eye Of The North (I think that's where it was) and I have seen parties forming, people spamming.... GLFM Duncan Run..... this was NO secret.

Did you guys go to DOA and Spam.... GLFM Mallyx Run!!! or did you guys keep it a secret and did it amongst yourselves?

I'm sure there were good weapons/ rewards when Duncan was killed, but the community knew about it. There was no need to keep it a secret. A shortcut was found and eventually fixed.

For 5-6 months, some of you managed to keep this place under wraps.., asking people to either join and remain in certain guilds, or demanding secrecy... why??

I find it hard to believe it was just greed. WHat makes sense is you knew this was an exploit and you could get in trouble if it was ever outed. The problem is, you thought a temp ban would be the punishment. None of you were expecting a perma ban.

Phaern Majes

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Anywhere but up

The Panserbjorne [ROAR]

R/Mo

12 Jan 2008 at 23:08 - 1492

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob79

Dear Gaile Grey
PLEASE ANSWER THIS

How many people got banned for using the free Zaishen chest "exploit?"

How many people got banned for getting a free ferry to the end of the game?

How many people got banned for getting a ferry to the deep, to urgoz or to slavers exile?

How many people got banned for /resigning in the Warrior Guild hall to be transported ANYWHERE in the game?

How many people got banned for using fort aspenwood, dragging all the necro npcs to the the base.. owning the other team?

How many people got banned for ferrying people from Kamadan to Consulate docks?

How many people have been banned in ab for dying at a gate and using necro transversal to go through it before the timer starts?

How many people have been banned for taking heros into AB and holding 64v64 matches?

How many people have been banned using the Warrior Guild hall trick to ferry people from Kamadan to LA without taking a quest?

How many people got banned for finding a bugged area while mapping and saw the "end of the world" effect?

How many people have been banned for vanquishing Bukdek Byway.. taking 2 quests.. and having to kill 1 enemy to vanquish?

When you question about how I know about all this, its simple. When you play the game for 30 months you find out about all these "exploits."

To say that ferrying to Mallyx is any different from the above is preposterous. Those guilty of any above are in the same position as this "exploit."

My question is.. Why where these not permanent bans?

Nobody got banned for getting ferried to the hidden outpost. They got banned for ABUSING AN EXPLOIT. Getting ferried anywhere isn't breaking the EULA. The exploit was skipping the entire quest and going straight to Mallyx. The exploit was shaving hours, possibly even days of time and only killing Mallyx. Do you seriously think out of the thousands of players that only 117 of you were ever ferried to the hidden outpost? Its way more likely that the 117 of you were the worst when it came to benefiting economically from the exploit. AND even if you truly believe all the people involved in your examples deserved to be banned also, then you should be happy that Anet is finally doing something about it, that they are learning from past mistakes. Two wrongs don't make a right, I believe thats how it goes.

Full Metal X

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

Zomg Lasers Pew

12 Jan 2008 at 23:08 - 1493

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exx The Necro

I hate to tell you Miss Grey, but nearly everyone who has played GW has found a bug or exploit at one time, and used it. Some over and over, some only once. Is everyone who used said exploits going to be banned? If so, the servers of GW are going to be very empty. If someone hacks these exploits and gets the "Fluffy Bunny" bonus, by all means, Ban them, and with a vengence. But the point is, if you are going to ban people because they used the exploit after it was "hacked" then you better get out a bigger ban stick and ban every single person who ever used any kind of exploit, large or small. I agree people who used the exploit should be punished, but isnt a permaban a little extreme. Or does Anet just take it upon themselves to pick and choose who gets punished and how severly. I said it before and Ill say it again, if Anet is going to ban some people for using an exploit, then they should ban EVERYONE who ever used an exploit, not just 117.
If it was truly a hack, I would hope Anet has the ability to detect who it was and crucify them without mercy, but to permaban a person who used the exploit after the "Hack" is assinine, punish, yes, ban,RESOUNDING NO!

Ever think they may be cracking down on exploiters? I mean this case was small enough that they could ban the people and be done with it, a public example if you will. To prove that they aren't the crap anymore. After the duping incodent I guess you could say it was an eye opener. The ferrying exploit on the other hand was FAR to big to ban everyone involved, so they used this incodent as it was much smaller and easier to contain. You may feel that this is unfair to you because you may have thought you were doing something you had done in the past (exploit) and hadn't got in trouble, well tough luck. Life isn't fair, and ANET doesnt have to be fair either they are taking steps to make the community better. So keep up the good work ANET.

TheGreatPie

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2008

12 Jan 2008 at 23:08 - 1494

Quote:

f you get stopped by a policeman for speeding, do you wonder "How did you miss the guy ahead of me, driving 10 MPH faster?" I think it's human nature, but the answer is clear: "Because I got caught, and he didn't."

In the larger sense, would we ever presume to tell the police department or the criminal justice system, "You didn't catch (or convict) that criminal, therefore you should not try to catch (or prosecute) any criminals?" No, because that's not the way things work. And yes, we're not talking "real life crimes" in this forum, but I'm hoping an analogy will be helpful. Game issues: Should we not block [this poor name] because [that other poor name] hasn't yet been caught? Should we leave every bots unbanned because we cannot ban them all?

I am not here to debate "that other thing" or "those other players." Other players have made it clear why some issues are larger than others, or why they are handled differently. I do understand the question, but I feel it's off the topic at hand. I came here to give you information about the Mallyx exploit, and to assure you that while we realize that we cannot catch everyone who behaves badly, nor every player whose actions can have a negative effect on other players or the game as a whole, we're not going to stop dealing with those whom we do catch, and we are going to continue trying to handle each issue to the best of our ability.

then why didn't everyone get banned for exploiting everything else?

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet

Join Date: Feb 2005

12 Jan 2008 at 23:09 - 1495

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clait

I apologize Gaile, but I went through several automated responses when I sent in support address lag in November 07. I received several generic answers to solutions, and nothing seamed helpful. It was Incident: 071126-002471 and 071110-001559. Your support team has a log of it.

The fact remains, these bans were done with an automated script done on Wednesday 12pm Pacific. That list was printed off listing account names, bans were done.. no reviews made.

Reviews were made before the bans were placed. How do I know? I was involved in the reviews. I have the spreadsheet. Subject closed.

Puritans Aid

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:09 - 1496

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiden Arcana

Personally knowing Puritan, he means before Anet screwed up the economy with Ursan. After Ursan was introduced, he did the other two areas.

What I mean is, and your Kind of right, That I did only the 2 repeatedly. I never finished the quest before I was brought to this town, and I thought this town was a normal part of guild wars, where you to see it, and how hard it is, maybe you could see that, but yes I joined an ursan group to do the last 2 nearly impossible before ursan groups, and then was showed how to kill mallyx, VIA this area. I did NOT ever complete the quest or kill mallyx before I was brought to this area, and I DID think it was part of the game.

I also would like to point out to gaile gray, that this is reportedly fixed, but I know someone who says they still have this town, and it still works. He hasn't used it, and wont, but would like you to know, just in case you skiped somehow the post he wrote.

Out of the 2700 or so glitches/bugs in this game. I suppose your teams are very very busy.

Gun Pierson

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

Belgium

PIMP

Mo/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:11 - 1497

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The issue is whether someone exploited the game. That is why people who were ferried, and did not actually perform the hack, were also banned. Going to a hidden outpost, cutting off about 80% of a mission, and farming an end-boss in minutes -- when it normally takes a couple of hours to reach him in normal play -- is exploiting the game. And that is against the User Agreement.

If a person duo farms UW for ectos, he's making 'ten times' faster money than in normal play. This could be seen as an exploit too, but gladly it isn't at this stage. I'm just worried because the line is vage. Ferrying to Duncan seems to have been an exploit and many players would have been banned, including myself, but we weren't. Don't get me wrong, I don't wanne get banned.

In the old days it was a sport to find glitches and exploits in games and nobody cared that much as nowadays. On the contrary, you were cool. That was before mmo rpg's though and before Starcraft, times have changed.

I made a few controversial posts in here, but I was wrong I guess. In the new gaming culture, cheating and exploiting is a crime with permanent consequences based on an Eula. I still find it a loss of creative freedom, but it's for a good cause I guess, fairness.

bobbylr

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

Drunks Really Know Nothing [DRKN]

E/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:11 - 1498

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

If you get stopped by a policeman for speeding, do you wonder "How did you miss the guy ahead of me, driving 10 MPH faster?" I think it's human nature, but the answer is clear: "Because I got caught, and he didn't."

In the larger sense, would we ever presume to tell the police department or the criminal justice system, "You didn't catch (or convict) that criminal, therefore you should not try to catch (or prosecute) any criminals?" No, because that's not the way things work. And yes, we're not talking "real life crimes" in this forum, but I'm hoping an analogy will be helpful. Game issues: Should we not block [this poor name] because [that other poor name] hasn't yet been caught? Should we leave every bots unbanned because we cannot ban them all?

I am not here to debate "that other thing" or "those other players." Other players have made it clear why some issues are larger than others, or why they are handled differently. I do understand the question, but I feel it's off the topic at hand. I came here to give you information about the Mallyx exploit, and to assure you that while we realize that we cannot catch everyone who behaves badly, nor every player whose actions can have a negative effect on other players or the game as a whole, we're not going to stop dealing with those whom we do catch, and we are going to continue trying to handle each issue to the best of our ability.

Why are you acting like it s real life? It is a game we all played and spent a good bit of money on. And we do not even get a human to investigate what went on.

Pleas tell me why my account was TERMANTED when you don't even look into my case.

Trub

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sitting in the guildhall, watching the wallows frolic.

Trinity of the ascended [SMS]+[Koss]+[TAM]=[ToA]

12 Jan 2008 at 23:12 - 1499

Quote:

I am not here to debate "that other thing" or "those other players." Other players have made it clear why some issues are larger than others, or why they are handled differently. I do understand the question, but I feel it's off the topic at hand. I came here to give you information about the Mallyx exploit, and to assure you that while we realize that we cannot catch everyone who behaves badly, nor every player whose actions can have a negative effect on other players or the game as a whole, we're not going to stop dealing with those whom we do catch, and we are going to continue trying to handle each issue to the best of our ability.

Maybe that answers the question about the 'other' exploits.

Lord Sojar

The Fallen One

Join Date: Dec 2005

Oblivion

Irrelevant

Mo/Me

12 Jan 2008 at 23:12 - 1500

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Rich players don't purely farm. Trading is vastly more profitable in the long run. This is the case in just about every online game.

Because clearly my post was to show that the people with thousands of armbraces got them legit.... OH WAIT. Smart up Avarre, clearly you missed the entire point of my mathematical posting. I know your more keen that this.

STOP THIS MADNESS. Clearly you went to an outpost that wasn't even a damned outpost. What did you think it was? Was Duncan an outpost that couldn't just be skipped to? No, you walked in a door, fought a few things, and poof, done.

Mallyx isn't in an outpost, he is in a chain of instances. GET IT? No? Go smash your face in with a broken bottle or brick till you pass out, then when you wake up, hopefully you won't have bled to death, and will understand that exploiting Mallyx for personal gain is/was far worse then Duncan could have ever have been, muchless the stupid guild hall ambassador warp trick.

Aiden Arcana

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2006

Germany

Eazy Bake Oven [loli]

Mo/E

12 Jan 2008 at 23:12 - 1501

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Should we leave every bots unbanned because we cannot ban them all?

No because as a company Bots are great for you. Ban an account, the person whom botted his account sold the gold before hand makes $80. buys a new campaign after his bot was banned ($$ in your company's pocket). I see a win-win, THATS why you don't ban all the bots.

high priestess anya

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2007

12 Jan 2008 at 23:13 - 1502

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhapsody Shadow

why were people banned for this but not exploits like the slave's dungeon or ferrying to the end of nightfall? Surly everyone should be treated the same.

i agree..
some of my friends were banned even thou they reported this bug.ANET's justice system is surely questionable.

FeroxC

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

EOA

P/W

12 Jan 2008 at 23:15 - 1503

Keep up the good work Gaile ! and don't buy this "I was ignorant" excuse. These people are experianced DoA farmers and knew exactly what they were doing when they milked this exploit.

Drop of Fear

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

W/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:16 - 1504

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

i agree..
some of my friends were banned even thou they reported this bug.ANET's justice system is surely questionable.

err... reporting an exploit doesnt give u the antiban-shield meaning u can keep abusing it. ask your friends the whole story

myrealnameismatt

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2007

[any]

W/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:16 - 1505

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

If you get stopped by a policeman for speeding, do you wonder "How did you miss the guy ahead of me, driving 10 MPH faster?" I think it's human nature, but the answer is clear: "Because I got caught, and he didn't."

In the larger sense, would we ever presume to tell the police department or the criminal justice system, "You didn't catch (or convict) that criminal, therefore you should not try to catch (or prosecute) any criminals?" No, because that's not the way things work. And yes, we're not talking "real life crimes" in this forum, but I'm hoping an analogy will be helpful. Game issues: Should we not block [this poor name] because [that other poor name] hasn't yet been caught? Should we leave every bots unbanned because we cannot ban them all?

I am not here to debate "that other thing" or "those other players." Other players have made it clear why some issues are larger than others, or why they are handled differently. I do understand the question, but I feel it's off the topic at hand. I came here to give you information about the Mallyx exploit, and to assure you that while we realize that we cannot catch everyone who behaves badly, nor every player whose actions can have a negative effect on other players or the game as a whole, we're not going to stop dealing with those whom we do catch, and we are going to continue trying to handle each issue to the best of our ability.

Gaile - If you were to have commited a crime, got caught and it was up in court then the law would be set by precident. I am not claiming that I didn't do anything wrong, just that our punishment was disproportinate to the offence. I understand that a-net does not have the resources to police such a massive world and i'm sure that if you had the resources to hand to hand out punishment to anyone who did anything wrong, then it would be done. For some of us that play for long periods of time, finding bugs in the game is almost like a sport and adds enjoyment - if we didn't find something to do with our time you would have to spend large amounts of money creating new game content to keep us hooked.

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet

Join Date: Feb 2005

12 Jan 2008 at 23:16 - 1506

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiden Arcana

No because as a company Bots are great for you. Ban an account, the person whom botted his account sold the gold before hand makes $80. buys a new campaign after his bot was banned ($$ in your company's pocket). I see a win-win, THATS why you don't ban all the bots.

The inevitable "Bot" comments. Let me say this again, as I've said it before: It costs us more to ban an account than we make in profit for selling a copy of the game. Hard to grasp, I know, but Support personnel are involved, sometimes at multiple levels. We don't "auto-ban" anyone, so there's the time to pull logs, review the parameters, check chat logs, appraise trade histories, and more. Bots are not a profit center for us.

Banned was Erin

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jan 2008

N/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:17 - 1507

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Reviews were made before the bans were placed. How do I know? I was involved in the reviews. I have the spreadsheet. Subject closed.

If reviews were made, then you would know that all 117 of us were not hackers. That also means that you committed an open act of libel by knowingly calling us hackers when your logs showed this to be false. It would be greatly appreciated if you would step up and admit you lied to the general public by labeling us all hackers. Your reviews, if any were indeed conducted, would show this to be completely false. Subject Closed.

Da Tru Legend

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

Light of Honor [Lite]

A/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:18 - 1508

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiden Arcana

No because as a company Bots are great for you. Ban an account, the person whom botted his account sold the gold before hand makes $80. buys a new campaign after his bot was banned ($$ in your company's pocket). I see a win-win, THATS why you don't ban all the bots.

Uhh, by that logic, they would try to ban ALL bots so that the person has to buy the campaign immediately and thus more often as he's getting banned more often. So whether through moral values or your cynical vision of the corporate world, they would try to ban bots as quickly as possible either way. The only reason they don't is because it is simply impossible to ban every single bot as there are way too many.

TheGreatPie

Banned

Join Date: Jan 2008

12 Jan 2008 at 23:19 - 1509

Quote:

The inevitable "Bot" comments. Let me say this again, as I've said it before: It costs us more to ban an account than we make in profit for selling a copy of the game. Hard to grasp, I know, but Support personnel are involved, sometimes at multiple levels. We don't "auto-ban" anyone, so there's the time to pull logs, review the parameters, check chat logs, appraise trade histories, and more. Bots are not a profit center for us.

hmmm how much does it cost to ban someone in a free game that you already got your money? i'm curious because these bots do more damage that all of the 117 combined

Lord Sojar

The Fallen One

Join Date: Dec 2005

Oblivion

Irrelevant

Mo/Me

12 Jan 2008 at 23:20 - 1510

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The inevitable "Bot" comments. Let me say this again, as I've said it before: It costs us more to ban an account than we make in profit for selling a copy of the game. Hard to grasp, I know, but Support personnel are involved, sometimes at multiple levels. We don't "auto-ban" anyone, so there's the time to pull logs, review the parameters, check chat logs, appraise trade histories, and more. Bots are not a profit center for us.

Gaile, I recommend you leave this thread as quickly as humanly possible. It is quite clear at this point that these people are only going to continue to point the finger and call you unjust, unfair, etc. Your wasting time and energy on these petty 117 complete losers. I am sure there are many better issues to cover that actually mean something to more people. God willing, they will eventually shut up and go away.

Puritans Aid

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:20 - 1511

Gaile, the thing is there is real world issues here. For one, IF someone really did HACK the game, IE your server, or whatever, thats ILLEGAL, and they should be found and made to pay for all of our banned accounts, and jailed for illegally hacking a game.

Due to the digital signature act, I signed a legal agreement with A NET, and my play nc account says my account was terminated. I didnt breach the agreement, but now you guys have, if my account truely is terminated. In this case, DO i have a legal case against you, as I have proof that I didn't Breech this agreement, and now by terminating my account A NET has?

PM me if you cant post it here, because I really need to know.

Thanks.
puritan

Chicken Ftw

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

12 Jan 2008 at 23:21 - 1512

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banned was Erin

If reviews were made, then you would know that all 117 of us were not hackers. That also means that you committed an open act of libel by knowingly calling us hackers when your logs showed this to be false. It would be greatly appreciated if you would step up and admit you lied to the general public by labeling us all hackers. Your reviews, if any were indeed conducted, would show this to be completely false. Subject Closed.

You should work on your reading before you post.

Quote:

An exploit was recently discovered in Guild Wars that allowed client-hackers to travel to a hidden outpost. From that outpost, they could travel directly into the room containing Mallyx, the final boss in the Domain of Anguish.

This hidden outpost existed strictly for testing purposes and was never accessible through normal play. Only by hacking the client, or partying with someone who had done so, could a player access that outpost

You were not all labelled as hackers. Nobody was directly named a hacker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puritans Aid

some blah blah about having a case

No, you have no case. You were found guilty of exploiting, which is against the EULA, and banned. It's entirely within Anet's right to ban anyone they deem guilty.

Full Metal X

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

Zomg Lasers Pew

12 Jan 2008 at 23:22 - 1513

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Gaile, I recommend you leave this thread as quickly as humanly possible. It is quite clear at this point that these self centered bastard children are only going to continue to point the finger and call you unjust, unfair, etc. Your wasting time and energy on these petty 117 complete losers. I am sure there are many better issues to cover that actually mean something to more people. God willing, they will eventually shut up and go away.

They could go away if some MORE ban sticks were thrown around, *cough* guru forums. As most of the 117 that have posted in this thread have just complained and whined and added nothing to the disscusion other than excuses.

Phaern Majes

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Anywhere but up

The Panserbjorne [ROAR]

R/Mo

12 Jan 2008 at 23:22 - 1514

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatPie

hmmm how much does it cost to ban someone in a free game that you already got your money? i'm curious because these bots do more damage that all of the 117 combined

It costs them profit when they release their next product. If you ban someone especially from a free game, then you safely assume that person is going to avoid your future products. Not to mention all the people that person then convinces your products are crap. So while the cost may not be immediate it is there.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

12 Jan 2008 at 23:23 - 1515

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Metal X

They could go away if some MORE ban sticks were thrown around, *cough* guru forums. As most of the 117 that have posted in this thread have just complained and whined and added nothing to the disscusion other than excuses.

They have added entertainment, which is worth its weight in gemsets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiden Arcana

Took me some time to think about this one, But i figured it out. The banned people tell others not to play GW's because they don't know there ass from there ears. Then those tell others. So it all snowballs from here. Thats how it costs you money.

That interested me too, but I took it to mean paying all the people to review bans costs more than the price of a single game.

Exx The Necro

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jan 2008

12 Jan 2008 at 23:23 - 1516

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Metal X

Ever think they may be cracking down on exploiters? I mean this case was small enough that they could ban the people and be done with it, a public example if you will. To prove that they aren't the crap anymore. After the duping incodent I guess you could say it was an eye opener. The ferrying exploit on the other hand was FAR to big to ban everyone involved, so they used this incodent as it was much smaller and easier to contain. You may feel that this is unfair to you because you may have thought you were doing something you had done in the past (exploit) and hadn't got in trouble, well tough luck. Life isn't fair, and ANET doesnt have to be fair either they are taking steps to make the community better. So keep up the good work ANET.

Sure, punish people for using exploits, by all means. But what if Anet at least posted they were going to crack down more severly on people instead of just going off the deep end over one incident and permabanning a bunch of people. Give these people a 72 hour ban (except so called hacker) and a warning, if they do it again then they need to be banned. But last time I looked, this isnt Iraq were the powers that be (Anet in this case) can just randomly punish a few people for something the masses have all done.

Trub

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sitting in the guildhall, watching the wallows frolic.

Trinity of the ascended [SMS]+[Koss]+[TAM]=[ToA]

12 Jan 2008 at 23:23 - 1517

LOL..they going to squeal now..../fleeeeeeeeeeeee
Keep sending tickets in...quit digging yourselves in deeper.
Gaile is older than 14 for goodness sakes.
She is not impressed with your attempts to dance around the obvious facts that most of the 117 (if not ALL) exploited an area that was off limits to the public!
No, I am not flaming, trolling, ect.
Think of this as a gentle slap in the face to get your thought back on track of the 'Mallyx exploit'!!
Not bots, duncan..blah..blah..blah.

Gaile Gray

ArenaNet

Join Date: Feb 2005

12 Jan 2008 at 23:24 - 1518

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banned was Erin

If reviews were made, then you would know that all 117 of us were not hackers. That also means that you committed an open act of libel by knowingly calling us hackers when your logs showed this to be false. It would be greatly appreciated if you would step up and admit you lied to the general public by labeling us all hackers. Your reviews, if any were indeed conducted, would show this to be completely false. Subject Closed.

No one has been named by ArenaNet. No one has been connected with this issue except by self-admission. No one has called anyone a hacker. ArenaNet has stated that this exploit was made possible by the use of a hack. That is true.

I am stepping away from this forum. It's the weekend, there's no testing or appeal reviews taking place, and I've given an excessive number of hours to this issue outside of the normal workdays in trying to respond to threads that are only getting more and more inflammatory, preposterous, and insulting.

Forgive me (or don't

) and do feel free to talk amongst yourselves, but I am signing out for a while.

Drop of Fear

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

W/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:24 - 1519

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatPie

hmmm how much does it cost to ban someone in a free game that you already got your money? i'm curious because these bots do more damage that all of the 117 combined

there are real people working in the mighty "a.net ban department of death". people who are payed to follow the game and trying to keep the environment under control.
don't forget that out of the 20-40$ retailers and ncsoft makes with each sold boxed copy, only a tiny % goes to the actual developers of the game, u'd be surprised to hear how small a.net's slice of that cake is.
therefore banning bots obliging them to buy new accounts might not cover the salaries of the ban department of death employees.

cosyfiep

are we there yet?

Join Date: Dec 2005

in a land far far away

guild? I am supposed to have a guild?

Rt/

12 Jan 2008 at 23:25 - 1520

to use gaile's example...you get caught for speeding, however you are punished by death the same as someone who killed some one....
I agree that there does need to be some action taken, just that the action taken was a little severe on the part of many of the 'exploiters'.
These need to be reviewed to find out who did the hacking (though it was said that in order to do that they would need to go back MONTHS to find out who started the whole thing, and they dont want to spend the time or money to do it, so in all likelihood the original 'hacker'--if there was indeed one, is laughing his head off since he will never be prosecuted having done the deed many many moons ago), and who just went along for the ride (and fun fact-in japan if you get into a car with a drunk and let him drive, and you get pulled over EVERYONE in the car gets a ticket, glad I dont live there any longer)......
Punishing the exploiters is necessary, giving them a death sentence is a bit extreme....

and since I am not without guilt (yes I took a run once) I will not cast any stones at the accused. (but good luck on the appeals)