[Dev Update] Exploits and Bans – 10 January 2008

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

what? whats the point? they break eula.... they are all subject to punishment also. ok they dont have the man power. but its these breaches of user agreement which made these 117 think it may be ok to exploit mallyx. wrong i know but you cant punish one without the other.counter argue all you want.
they cant punish one without the other...no matter the seriousness. if you do wrong you get punished to my knowledge...
ethics morals and the law all stand by what i say.
all of the "minor offenses" still are profiteeering and exploits. get off my back and let me help these guys

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

Though last time I checked, ANet bans bots as well. They just keep coming back...so that really doesn't go unpunished.

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

If you think you deserve to be un-banned because you can cite a bot that has not been banned, then they should also ban your ip so you cant come back and make another account.

Its the same reason you can speed past a cop sitting in a speed trap and not get yourself a ticket. Part of it requires identification of the offender, as well as intent, as well as a means of capture, seriousness of the offense.

Bots are harder to identify as such. If Anet had the manpower, they'd ban all bots. They wish to. They just cant identify all of them, track all of them and get that done, but they ban all the ones they can and have been doing that for ages now. There's still more coming in than they can give a speedy exit to.

Now along comes someone like you, leaving a nice trail in the logs that is ridiculously obvious, exploiting a high end boss for large monetary gain and its easy for them to see. What did you think Anet was going to do? Ignore you and let you continue because they havent gotten rid of all the bots? What do you think the policeman in the speed trap is going to do when his or her radar detects a speeder and they get a call about an armed robbery?

Some criminals deserve to be caught. Some of the excuses are also very entertaining, and games imitate real life.



And you can come back too, Anya. Unfortunately.

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

as far as im aware ANET's drop off point means i get my account back...
im not here for myself. an unban would be justified for me i will be getting what i deserve. the others deserve the ban if they repeatedly farmed mallyx and i back the ban. i am merely pointing out that ANET cannot punish one without the other. ethics and morals bla bla...

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

... but its these breaches of user agreement which made these 117 think it may be ok to exploit mallyx. ...

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

We've spent too much time circling over the same topics, just written differently. It'd be good that everyone stops for a day or two, maybe spend that time re-reading calmly this thread, and that Anet comes back to us revealing the extent of the "affair". I'm waiting for the next announcement, because on the side of the exploiters I don't see any progress at all since around page 50.

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

Originally Posted by high priestess anya
GWG team doing an excellent job :P
sorry for one liner

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

What? Defending Anet? Come now. Have you ever read any of my posts? I complain about Anet as much as I praise them. Depends on the issue. If you disagree with Anet in this case fine. Dont take it out on those who happen to agree.

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

read my last 20 posts....
you cant join in half way through an argument unless you are psychic

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Actually zwei2stein's argument stands on its own, unrelated to the previous 105 pages, and it's a very strong one. IIRC Gaile mentioned that some people sold this ferrying and asked people to keep it secret (source: here). So that automatically makes more suspicious the comparison with previous exploits and it surely does sound wrong when people want to get out of the "guilty" box. It looks like "intent" in a legal framework, though I'm not versed into this domain.

When we'll look back at this thread later, it'll be amazing to see how many people may have been lying around. This is the "internet anonymized me" effect that script kiddies used... until they realised that they could be located exactly located.

*knock knock on the door Excuse me sir, do you own the computer that had the IP address 123.456 from ISP fastNet?*

new GW version:
*Err045 you've been perma-banned* *goes to webforums to complain and make his case* *sorry the case is closed and you're guilty!*

Originally Posted by Dont Mess WithMe

[B]
I think she/he means that Guild Wars Guru Mods are all over this thread deleting inappropriate posts, doing their job quite well.

Inde said no names, no outing, no one liners.... so those keep getting deleted. People keep posting but we are not advancing page-wise. Posts are being deleted faster than they are being posted.

I say Kudos Mods!!

Originally Posted by Dont Mess WithMe

Sorry but I am still quite confused....

so what you are saying is after you killed Mallyx you had to get the quest again.. BUT... WHERE did you get the quest from?? I'm guessing the *official* post, DOA?? since the *unofficial* one did NOT have any NPC's.

If this is what needed to be done... how can anybody claim they didn't know...

You go to DOA get the quest
You go to your GH or Party leader's GH
you MAP to this post that you can not access any other way
and you Kill Mallyx again


hmmmmm did no bells ring???

Originally Posted by pablo24

The client saves the ZoneID of the zone you are in somehow. If by some weird error which I have already encountered the client thinks you are in an outpost even though you are in an explorable area, then it will save that ZoneID and if you relog you get into the Mallyx outpost! I already had that problem twice with other areas and I also simulated it for the Mallyx outpost which did indeed get me there. This was by the way how I figured out the teleport into instance exploit which is still not fixed

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

I tried it. And it's not working for me. Are you sure that it wasnt because of a previous visit to the Ebony Citadel that allows this?

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

this was my response to PlayNC's report saying that i was banned with good reason:

i went to the affected area but only proceeded to mallyx once. i did not ferry people to the location. i didnt know how to.the one time i actually went to mallyx from this location was once and i left mid battle. i gained nothing from the bug therefore didnt "exploit" its vulnerability.
i thank you for taking the time to assess this.
my defense is that i didnt think going to the area was permabannable as it itself holds no personal gain hence the reason why i was going there as i didnt think i was "exploiting" it. using it for no other means than to see friends...yes. there to make a profit...no.
i hope you have the means to see that i ddint profit and i hope you check the chat logs back to 5 weeks ago wheni was pleading with all my friends not to do this as it was bannable.
once again. thank you guys for taking the time to do this but please let me know if the fact that just being there with no intention of making a profit is perma- bannable.

also note the meaning of "exploit".

Originally Posted by Mickey

3 times per run. And if Anet is running their bans off "profit" rather than "times accessed outpost" we will be seeing alot of unbans next week.

Originally Posted by Mickey

Well, 1. Complete all areas first 2. Either A. Go to Guild Hall and get Ferried or B. Resign then go to Guild Hall and get to outpost (not confirmed, friend told me then leprekan said it here 3. Kill Mallyx 4. Get reward inside the mission 5. Ferrier goes to the guild hall 6. Other party members get quest 7. Go to Guild Hall 8. Ferrier takes you to the outpost 9. Ferrier gets quest 10. People go back to guild hall, to pick up the ferrier 11. Back to outpost 12. Repeat.

3 times per run. And if Anet is running their bans off "profit" rather than "times accessed outpost" we will be seeing alot of unbans next week.

When my friend told me that you could access it via resign, I immediately thought, "oh, so you can just try again." I hadn't been to Zellix or w/e his name again except for the quest reward/quest.

Btw, congrats Anya, I hope you get your account back. Even the hope of getting an account back right now is good enough for a congrats.

Originally Posted by Maca

I really don't know what are you all trying to do here. Anet never banned ppl for anything ( not for Duncan, not for pre-searing thing..list is long), the fact that they done this now just shows how serous this thing was. Think about it, what would you do if you find out that someone has hacked your pc? Would you be furious, mad, would you like to find that person and punish him/her? I know I sure would. I was banned in WOW and I am still not sure why,I tryed to find out the reason, and gave up at the end and got new acc. ANet is trying to talk to you guys, trying to explain why they have to do this, if this happened in WOW Blizzard would bann the whole server without any explanation ( keep in mind this is a pay to play game). Maybe the problem is that ANET wasn't so firm with other things, so ppl thought this will go unpusnished as all things before it did, but you can't say this is unfair. Someone did hack the server, I am sure in this, since I really don't see the reason why would they lie about it, they never did before, they just said exploit was there and now it's not for all other things that you say are the same as this one. I would really like someone to explain me why would they lie about a hack?

Originally Posted by Inde

Okay, my brain is about to explode. From the misinformation, the repeated questions that I can find on every 5 pages of this thread, and from those who just like to do +1 posts when they could bring a conversation to PM's. I'm not sure how much longer to persist with this thread. Despite having numerous people ask for it's closure, both mods and users, it's starting to go around in circles. Everything someone needs to know from Anet is on the first page of this thread.

Everything contained in this thread is being read, tested or explained by Anet as evidence from several posts from Gaile Gray. I understand the communities frustration and yes... from some of you, betrayal and outrage. But banging our heads to try to make the other side see our point is not doing anything but contributing to the over 500 deleted posts in this thread. Not to mention countless edits. That's 1 in every 4 posts being deleted. This is a massive amount of effort over the last several days to assure that the community has a voice. That you can express your displeasure, your acceptance or your support of what ArenaNet did.

I wish that there could be some resolution for everyone... both banned, those that think it unfair, friends of those who were banned, those who have been hurt or ridiculed for this, or those simply striving to make the other side hear and understand their point of view.

But there's no end to this in sight. I think all view points have been represented in this thread. I wish there were a better way to handle this, to let those who were banned get their stories and points to ArenaNet directly for consideration but that method has been provided whether you like the answer or not... go through support.

The question of this being a hack or a bug or an oversight by Anet is not going to be resolved nor will it change ArenaNet's mind. They have seen the steps some of you have posted to contribute toward your ban or that of a friend. I have seen the arguements, the flames and the frustration.

From this point forward this thread will become strictly monitored. Any one-liner... ANY ONE LINER... will be deleted. Anymore reference to this being a QQ thread will be deleted. Any reposting of what you said 30 pages ago, will be deleted. Any analogies will be deleted. Any insult/flame or flamebait will be deleted. Any post about lawsuits/libel/defamation will be deleted. These rules are subject to change.

Try to stay on topic. Try to express your views by really posting and thinking of your responses. Stop the back-and-forth bickering and conversation mode. If we can continue with this thread in a reasonable manner with an honest debate with the information we have then I'll keep it open. Any new stories from those who were banned who would like to come forward to express their viewpoint are welcome. We'll see how this goes.

Originally Posted by Dont Mess WithMe

ok...
1- did not involve visiting forbidden outpost.
2- you get ferried to outpost. 1 time
3- kill Mallyx... you are in the area killing him, after being in the outpost 1 time.
4- get reward in mission, still in same area, still 1 time
5- Ferrier goes to GH ( rest of players I'm guessing may have /resigned and landed in post... so even though it's 2nd time there, I guess you can count it as First time for next run. To try and get to the 3 times, I will count it as First time in outpost for run # 2.
6- You go get the quest, I'm assuming in DoA, since that post has NO NPC's.
7- Go to the GH
8- Ferrier takes you to outpost.. so 2nd time there for Run #2
9- Ferrier gets the quest, so I'm guessing he leaves the party in the post while he goes to legit DoA and grab quest.
10- People go back to GH to pick up ferrier... that Means... all the times YOU went there... YOU were the one that went back to the GH to fetch him?? or the WHOLE Party did?? This makes no sense. You only NEED one player to ferry. If this was NOT your GH, why keep going back and forth? I mean it's not like there were districts.
11- Back to outpost, and yes if you all traveled as a group to pick uf the original ferry guy, it's 3 times.

so none of this seemed odd to you? Having to get a quest in a Normal post, to then go through all these steps to end up in a deserted post to go straight to kill Mallyx??

Frankly, Gaile's version makes more sense to me. You opened the chest 7 times, but ANET is also counting the times you went in there and did NOT kill Mallyx. Just because you didn't get his chest all the times you went in, doesn't mean they shouldn't count those visits.

Either way, if ANET were to establish a clear line as to HOW many times you can abuse an exploit before getting permanently banned... players that like shortcuts would find a way around it....

"but I ONLY did it 3 times with my ranger!! and 2 with my Monk, and 3 with my Necro!!!, I didn't know it was 3 times per account!!"

They may have let some things slide that needed to be addressed, like armbraces, I'm all for that, BUT those 117 and all the others that went in there, MOST of them KNEW this was fishy. They were hoping NOT to get caught, and thought if they did get caught the worst case scenario would be a 72 hr ban. Unfortunately for them... ANET has finally sent a LOUD and CLEAR message about cheating. "If you cheat, you MIGHT get caught. If you get caught, we MIGHT Perma Ban you. Before you decide to cheat and exploit the game... THINK TWICE!! "

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

apparently i went to the affected area 18 times...
to my knowledge it was like 3-4.
im just wondering if they are taking into account the number of legitimate times i went to mallyx. i farm DOA quad runs. i was doing mallyx 3 times a day legitimately...
any other bannee's surprised by the apparent number of visits reported?

Originally Posted by Mickey

The whole personal gain thing is really wierd as well.

I've been told that none of my appeals will be looked at by now, and I have introduced every aspect of my case.

Basically, this is it: So, I did it 7 times, I'm guilty, I agree, however, I personally gained out of this exploit, and my actions followed: 18 k + 1 Mallyx's Reaver + 3 primeval armor remnants. This is after, however, I gave most of my greens away, along with money for my PvP friend's shield, and a few primeval armor remnants to guildies. I seriously doubt that Anet is considering personal gain in this banning spree.

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

Well, technically speaking, you still gained the items in a not so proper fashion and redistributed them in your own way. That'd be dealing in "illegal goods" so to speak. Bottom line being you still gained items. Exploiting the game to dupe Ambraces, then giving them all away in towns doesn't make the duping good either.

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

quote: Basically, this is it: So, I did it 7 times, I'm guilty, I agree, however, I personally gained out of this exploit, and my actions followed: 18 k + 1 Mallyx's Reaver + 3 primeval armor remnants. This is after, however, I gave most of my greens away, along with money for my PvP friend's shield, and a few primeval armor remnants to guildies. I seriously doubt that Anet is considering personal gain in this banning spree.

Originally Posted by Mickey

Thanks......I didn't say I wouldn't be up for ban. I hope they decide to perma-ban 12 runs+ week or 72 hour bans for 5+ and unbanned for 1-4.

Originally Posted by Dont Mess WithMe

I don't know how ANET came up with the number of times they claim any of you went in there.

The problem with your argument regarding gradual bans is this:

You ran Mallyx 7 times. Even if it was not 21, it is still 3 over the limit ANET has decided that the no ban- perma ban cut off line will be set. So for you, it works out that you did +3 runs more than what would've saved you.

Ok, let's raise the bar... people that did this run more than 10 times will get a perma ban. That saves you ( I know all of you would be thrilled with a temp ban, so I won't even mention that possibility). Now what happens with those guys that did the run 12 times!!! I mean, those that did it 10 times, get their accounts back.... and those that did it 2 times more... lose thousands of hours of their lives.

Ok, let's raise the bar again, those poor 12 times runners... now we will make it 15 runs!!. Under 15 you get a temp ban, over 15 you get a perma ban. Now what happens to those that ran Mallyx 17 times??? I mean those that did it 15 times get their accounts back... and those that did it 2 times more... lose thousands of hours of their lives.

Do you see the pattern??

ANET tried to give some of you the benefit of the doubt!! They felt that maybe some of you guys didn't know what you were doing, and that going in there 1-4 times, EVEN if you killed Mallyx, got gems, got a green.... is more than sufficient times to realize there was something WRONG with this picture, the post looks different from any other post you have ever been to. Get out and don't go back.

Your friends lied to you. They told you it was not an exploit. It is towards them you should be directing your anger .

Originally Posted by Dont Mess WithMe

I don't know how ANET came up with the number of times they claim any of you went in there.

The problem with your argument regarding gradual bans is this:

You ran Mallyx 7 times. Even if it was not 21, it is still 3 over the limit ANET has decided that the no ban- perma ban cut off line will be set. So for you, it works out that you did +3 runs more than what would've saved you.

Ok, let's raise the bar... people that did this run more than 10 times will get a perma ban. That saves you ( I know all of you would be thrilled with a temp ban, so I won't even mention that possibility). Now what happens with those guys that did the run 12 times!!! I mean, those that did it 10 times, get their accounts back.... and those that did it 2 times more... lose thousands of hours of their lives.


Ok, let's raise the bar again, those poor 12 times runners... now we will make it 15 runs!!. Under 15 you get a temp ban, over 15 you get a perma ban. Now what happens to those that ran Mallyx 17 times??? I mean those that did it 15 times get their accounts back... and those that did it 2 times more... lose thousands of hours of their lives.

Do you see the pattern??

ANET tried to give some of you the benefit of the doubt!! They felt that maybe some of you guys didn't know what you were doing, and that going in there 1-4 times, EVEN if you killed Mallyx, got gems, got a green.... is more than sufficient times to realize there was something WRONG with this picture, the post looks different from any other post you have ever been to. Get out and don't go back.

Your friends lied to you. They told you it was not an exploit. It is towards them you should be directing your anger.

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

peer pressure can have an affect...and especially these so called friends who have been doing it for so long and getting away with it. it does send mixed messages but everytime i was asked to join in i was dubious and stuck with my quad run farm...which to me...was a lot more fun anyway

Originally Posted by Mickey

I did it 7 times, for like, an hour and a half, then stopped. Never went back there. That counts for nothing, but it's something.

Originally Posted by Dont Mess WithMe

Hmmm, I think in a way you have a valid point there. If you only went in there during that one hour and a half period... and really NEVER went back.... maybe it took you that long for things to click.

Maybe ANET should take into account the players that REALLY only went in there ONCE, did a few back to back runs.... then maybe something CLICKED and they said... "HMMM... let me get out of here, something is not right". Maybe that 1hr of messing up VS the rest of gameplay time of not breaking rules should account for something. I don't know.

Bottom line is, only you know what you did and how many times you really did it.

Originally Posted by Mickey

Yeah, I agree. Once Anet sorts this stuff out, they might, too.

If it really is just a bug, then this is no different from Duncan, a bug that players used to skip parts of hard quests that were not meant to be skipped.

Originally Posted by Trub

Mickey...anya:
Is this the same line that the others at the 'Mallyx Party' repeated over and over again?
"It's ok...at most we will get a stinking 72hr ban or something."
"The Duncan exploit was WAYYYYYYY bigger than this, it's ok."
Please, clear this up for the rest of us veiwers?

Originally Posted by Trub

Mickey...anya:
Is this the same line that the others at the 'Mallyx Party outpost' repeated over and over again?
"It's ok...at most we will get a stinking 72hr ban or something."
"The Duncan exploit was WAYYYYYYY bigger than this, it's ok."
Please, clear this up for the rest of us veiwers?