[Dev Update] Exploits and Bans – 10 January 2008

How come my account is alrdy terminated when i ask about my game logs. Anya ,I was in your guild and was one of the last players know about this exploit. And if you think you get your 9000h+ account back ,they defenitly should give back mine!

you only exploited it once right?
i might get my account back for the reason that i did not aim to gain nothing from going to the area. they have logged me as being there and im still waiting for them to find out that i have never deliberately gained from it. as far as i know the day you got banned was the day you first found out about the exploit, its just down to how much you did in that one day
keep sending in tickets bud you are one of the guys i dont want to be banned

1. In principle at least, a-net has done the right thing. Abusing this was certainly banworthy, no doubt.

2. In practice, a-net seems to have royally screwed up on figuring out who was abusing the outpost and who was just along for the ride. My guess is that they did not (and perhaps still do not) understand that one trip to Mallyx required multiple trips to the outpost -- hence the discrepancy between the number of times Mickey and Anya say they went in, and the number of times a-net says they went in.

3. The larger lesson here is a game-design one -- one I thought that had been learned after D2, but which apparently got unlearned sometime between Prophecies and Nightfall. If you make things that are so rare that most players have no realistic chance of ever attaining them through normal gameplay, then you will inevitably end up with a few people trying to get them through cheating. Super-rare "leet" items are a bad, bad, bad thing for a game to have if they want to avoid this sort of cheating. Look back over GW and you can see the cheating incidents increasing in proportion with the introduction of super-rare "leet" items. There's a reason that the two biggest cheating incidents in GW are both related to DoA. Let's hope that a-net learns from this one not only about writing more secure code, but also about not creating huge incentives to cheat in the first place.

they should secure those areas i agree and also listen to bug reports...4 months ago this was first reported. fix problem>no exploit?
although i disagree with "leet items" theory.
im sure they will make amends to secure this wont happen again
PS: i cant believe they deleted all the crap and we still have 98 pages lol

To be honest they did the smart thing and banned people quickly and are now offering to give those people who feel they were unjustly banned a right to appeal (something they in no way have to do.). The banned however are expecting a response immediately, over a WEEKEND. I would expect over the first half of next week we'll see some reports of people actually being communicated with.

thus far they have done the investigation all wrong...
all the time they wasting on finding out how many times people went there and not actually exploiting the "exploit" by skipping to mallyx. they have to redo my whole investigation becuase they where looking in the wrong area but i will say this, it took them only about 12 hours to respond to my ticket...gg so far just hope they have means to prove people innocent because so far they are going the wrong way about it
gaile said something earlier about the outpost itself being an exploit, in which, it is, to a degree.it exploits passage to mallyx, if you do this you are still cheating by skipping the other bosses but imo you are not guilty of exploiting ANYTHING until you click "start mission"so if someone is there without intention of using the exploit then....
this is what anet need to prove.
i am guilty of going to the place which gave me the chance to exploit the game.despite the temptation i still NEVER defeated mallyx from this outpost (even thou i was mallyx ready) AND i only entered the battle once in which i left mid battle.

grrr im getting stressed lol

Just going to the outpost is enough to warrant banning. Whether or not you ever even laid eyes upon Mallyx is irrellevant. Also, how many responses can you expect from the team over the weekend? It's SUNDAY right now.

i editted my post. its more accurate now.
the area is only an exploit if you click accept mission. just being there isnt gaining nothing and benefits no one until they click the go button. so dont try it with the "Just going to the outpost is enough to warrant banning"
i could sit in that outpost all day with friends provided i had reported it and aslong as i dont click the go button and not break EULA.as we are not "exploiting" and are not "gaining anything we dont deserve". think about it...if you quote this i will post the EULA ruling which will prove you wrong

Dude, I already know this, I am trying to bargain for a second chance so I can display this. Would you lay off already, you've flamed half of us, and no, I'm not laying the blame on someone else, I'm simply saying, not all the blame needs to shoot to us.

I'm hoping they do and those that they do contact please keep us posted. I've submitted another ticket but tbh I'm thinking its all a waste of time on my behalf as they have already terminated my account.
I've posted my case to you all here and to the support team. Nothing else can be done apart from wait and see.
You could say I've got a defeatist attitude towards this and with good reason, but to those still fighting to get reinstated, good luck you will be needing it especially since they terminated my account when I got ferried there and only entered the mission once (only to be in there for all of 30 seconds (at the most)).
I admit that although I only went into the mission once at the end of the day it was my own failing for not taking my paragon out of that area and into another area instead of the guild hall.
The game schematics are failed that they don't outline "Logged into Xxxxx Xxxxxxxx -> Loading into Xxxxx Outpost." If they did I might have actually got my account back.
But alas I'll just go back to my spot between the rock and the hard-place and will keep an eye on this topic and the plight of those affected by this.

I don't have to try it. Anet, through Gaile, has explicitly stated even being in the outpost is enough to warrant banning.

That couldn't be further from the truth. Even accessing the outpost is an exploit, even "standing around" in the outpost doing nothing is an exploit and a breach of EULA. Anet has said so, they are the ones who get to decide such things. You can not agree with it, but you can't make it untrue.

Which is absolutely ridiculous, especially after she said that they would take into account special cases where people were dragged there. Those people are banned right now, and can do nothing about it. If I had just been dragged there, and I was banned for more than 4 days, I would be pretty ticked.

At Jake Steel: Yeah, your right, but as a User who was dragged against or with their will, and then immediately banned, for staying in the outpost no longer than 5 seconds. I would be ticked, but I am not in that position.

Being upset is understandable, however, that doesn't take away from the absolute fact that Anet did something that was entirely within their right and legally and realistically there is nothing you can do about it if they decide to uphold their banning.

guild wars rules of conduct;
rule 19:you will not exploit any bug in guild wars. you will not communicate the existance of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of guild wars. bugs should be promptly reported via bla bla

ok unnatural or unintended benefits..


Definitions of benefit on the Web:

financial assistance in time of need
profit: derive a benefit from; "She profited from his vast experience"
something that aids or promotes well-being; "for the common good"
a performance to raise money for a charitable cause
be beneficial for; "This will do you good"

defintion of exploit from the web:
In the realm of online games, an exploit is usually a software bug, hack or bot that contributes to the user's prosperity in a manner not intended by the developers

read it....carefully
and please dont make me define prosperity lol

affected area=bug
clicking accept mission=exploit

If this was true, I would be scotch free, but that is not all that Anet is judging at the moment. If you broke the rules, you have to pay the price, now, the only thing worth bargaining is the price.

how can it not be true? those are REAL definitions and that is the REAL rule 19
read it please. going to the outpost doesnt exploit nothing, you are just taking advantage of a bug or even unwittingly taken advantage of a hak which is not your fault...you didnt hack it. the exploit is clicking accept mission because the moment you click that button you skip all DOA bosses. THAT my friends, is the exploit..

Everything you just said is irrelevant. Being in an "out of bounds" area, via an exploit is more than enough to get Anet to ban you. Why? THEY SAID SO! Anet has the right to revoke your access to their servers at any time for any reason. I realize this is difficult to believe (specially when you don't want to believe it) but it's the absolute fact of this incident that cannot be denied.

I would like to say that the post concerning the Petition to Unban the 117 on that website is the most productive post that this thread has spit out. Can we please keep it up Inde? Is there a problem with having a petition here, besides that it belongs in Sardelac, but it probably will not be taken very well there, and it should belong in the 99 page thread concerning it, lol.

Anya, I think the point jake is attempting to make is that whether or not what is true or untrue isn't significant to what decision Anet makes...things that may be true in the real world or anywhere else don't apply here...It's Anets ballgame and you can choose to abide by their rules or not to play. Simple as that.

yes, we still have the town, or at least our log in screens show it as there. If we log them to exit the town, we are afraid we will get banned.

HELP.

We havent gotten any responses on our tickets to anet.

you guys get the point, he doesnt. they can ban us although not for exploiting. they have the power to do as they wish i agree but to be banned for apparently exploiting something which holds no personal benefits..... is not exploiting.
ban me for being out of bounds? fair enough..lifetime ban....harsh as hell...calling it exploiting...WRONG.....

That is exactly my point! Dictionary.com, Wiki, even Merriam bloody Webster do not get to decide what defines an exploit in this case. Anet, and Anet alone, are the arbiters of your fate and the definition of what an exploit is within the world of Guild Wars.

A net has to stop calling it exploiting. MAny people where banned that did not get personal gain from this, thusly not fitting that definition of exploiting.

The OTHER deffinition, if you look on wiki, is a hack. so your either saying we had profit gain, or hacked. In a lot of cases, neither of these things happened, so the word EXPLOITING, simply doesnt fit.

Find a word that does fit, and makes us have broken the EULA, or unban those of us who didnt.

That's what we get for signing the EULA. Power to Anet to click the Ban key on their keyboard to x number of highlighted account names. Lol, companies these days, I liked it when we had companies like Enron

Edit: Sort of a one liner, I will add more.

http://www.petitiononline.com/unban117/petition.html

I don't know if this is against the rules, to post a petition like this, if it is, someone, a Mod, please tell me so I can delete this post.

Actually, can I make a request to Inde, maybe put that website on the first page, so we can have a civilized petition to Anet. It's fine if you don't, you guys are the mods.

You don't have to benefit in anyway for software to be exploited. By going to the outpost, you exploited the game. There is no doubt, no denying it. You can fool yourself but the reality is, the game was exploited. If you've been in the outpost you exploited the game.


Anet's definition of exploit can certainly be different than yours or mine. However, their definition of exploit is completely within the realm of generally accepted meaning for the word exploit.

The fact of Anet saying that this ban was because of 2 reasons, the first one abuse of an exploit, and second, economy reasons, first of all lets have a little math lesson. Starting by a quote made by the spokesperson of ANET:

Now let's start the lesson by following the "process" used to do this exploit quoting Mickey, so if ANET and/or GW GM's Team/Support, is counting each time you land in that outpost, it'd mean that for each succesful, "Exploited Run" you'd need to land 3 times at least on this outpost.

Now the funny stuff, according to what we read, and what's been running in this post and the Forum itself, all the players were banned due to economy issues as a result of the abuse of an exploit, now taking into consideration both quotes, 634 times some player landed on the outpost, here comes the juicy math, and the process requires you to land 3 times per each successful "exploit", now, 634 times divided by 3, gives us, 211 "exploited runs", which would mean on a technical point of view s/he has 211 full gemsets, which would give that player a total amount of 14 Armbraces of Truth, wow..., s/he is rich, isn't s/he?, as a common, regular player of GW, I can tell you, he has more than what I have, indeed, but... I have a concern about this, My question is how is this affecting the economy on GW, lets be a little further on the math...

lets say that exact same player did the exact same "exploit" with his same team 634 times, that would mean that 7 more ppl have 14 more ambraces each, that would mean they together have 98 Armbraces, wow..., quite a bunch, huh?, well, it comes to my attention that number, 98 armbraces, wow they are all rich and wealthy, or, are they?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0241925&page=2

Wait a minute, but what are you telling me?, are you saying they didn't do something wrong, no, they did!, was it greed?, yes, but, how come people have 1500 armbraces and more to buy something without even blinking?, Duping, buying gold, uber-leet-players?, its not for me to decide... but think about this as a reminder of an sub-existing economy, where yes, players did wrong, but is it that bad that even with 98 armbraces, you can't even compete for a bid like that one...

Up tou you to decide...

Mathman

Lol, did you make that guru name just for this post? That's great, lol.

Seriously, Anet needs to sort out their priorities. All the armbraces made from this exploit come to about...wait for it.....1/4 of the amount that 1 of the Dupers has. Tell me which RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up the economy more? This exploit, or the duping. Now, tell me which incident had more bans? This exploit, or the duping. Thought so.

Oh, last thing. Tell me which, exploit or dupe, where people got away with it, had more funds than they did before. Infact, tell me which one where people actually got away with it.

I meant the duping. Duh, the original dupers are still out there. There is no one who accessed that outpost out there.

Edit: Oh, you meant those two guys, my bad, too, sorry.

To the folks that keep saying that they have alts in that outpost, I really wouldn't advise Anet that you have an alt account. Doesn't the EULA state that if you get banned that you can't play on an alt account either? Seems to me that you are just asking for that account to be banned too.

I can just see it now at Anet: Look Joe (who was banned) just told us of another alt account he has ----- ban it too!

If I were you and you wanted to keep it, simply move it out of the outpost and take your chances. If you have already been there more times than Anet will allow it is just going to be banned anyway so you have nothing to lose (Unless logging onto that account counts as another visit and it puts you over the limit).

So if i got buy a new account, and play another 2 years without breaking a single rule, and they found out it was me, the would ban it anyway/

GOD I hope thats not true.
Puritan

The slippery logic implied by this sophistry is that 'As long as you run spl0itz which gain you less than 1500 armbraces you wont get banned'.

If this ridiculous policy were to be even contemplated we would have a 'Free For All' on the GW servers, it would be like a convention of spl0iterz-r-us.

After one hundred pages of this - denial, anger, depression and bargaining - it really would be nice if those spl0iterz arrived at Acceptance.

No they don't.

But in the interests of the broader discussion and not wanting to be personal...

No, they don't want money from people who have previously attempted to commit a bad against them. Any reasonable person would feel the same.

I really just have to add, to the above, it is really difficult to explain things to people in this thread anymore, its hopeless.

that the analogy above is flawed, as you didn't merely get a ticket, you got your license to drive revoked, bad comparisons FTL.

I would love to see what you would say if you were in our position. Since your personality is just wonderful already. What if you did 2 runs, decided something was fishy, and still got banned. And you got 3 emails from Support saying that your account is terminated, and you will never see it again. How would you react?

Hey, as long as there is evidence to prove something, I am inclined to believe it. I asked for evidence, not flames. But thanks anyway.

lifetime ban is unacceptable regardless...
stripping a persons chars of everything, resetting all titles and giving them a 4 month ban is severe also...and would have the same effect...
the main hacker deserves lifetime ban not the guys who profitted from this. they deserve to be punished but lifetime is extreme
oh btw my brother has an account and he is playing on it right now...

This would be one of the harder one's to sort out from ANet's point of view, but "technically"....yes they would all be banned. Draconian? yes. Fixable? possibly. Who's to say you dont then jump on your spouses acct and use that do continue whatever it was that got you into trouble in the first place.

Note: Im generalising not being personal

Here's my interpretion to what the thread is talking about at the moment:

1. There's one guy who is trying to get Anet to test his method to access this forbidden town without using a hack, so that the amount of punishment to some of the 117 people can be lifted or decreased.

2. People are now debating whether it is appropriate to have permanent bann as a universal punishment to all the 117 people, as there is a significant difference between the number of abuses each person conducted.

What annoys me about this thread is that people are continue trying to flame Anet and telling us that they are going to WoW. First of all, flaming Anet will not help anyone, and it will not make the current situation go any faster. Secondly, for god's sake, this is a Guild Wars forum, and this is a thread about an exploit in a game called Guild Wars, quit talking about World of Warcraft.

And the UA states that if you do not agree with these terms simply return the product to the store for a full refund(within a set time frame). But A Net did change the rules in the middle of the game didn't they? So how could we not agree to the UA after months of playing.

I'd rage for about two hours, maybe send off an angry email or two, then realize I'm raging about a game, and go drink some beers with friends to relax. 4k hours played across 4 campaigns, meh. It was a good run, life goes on.

And Santa lives in the North Pole - petition says so. They even have pictures.

The remaining 3 of you arguing here, starting petitions, hiring lawyers, etc. Every post you make kills the chances about Anet changing anything about their decision.

Two things will happen out of this: Anet will stop commenting and discussing this. And possibly secondly, ban all that ever were to the outpost - just to make sure everything is fair.

This is exactly what happens when one tries to be considerate with community. Offer a finger, lose a hand.

And if an exploit of such magnitude happens again, bans will be swift, and without consideration or chance of appeal. If Anet gives way even a bit after this, then every single time someone gets banned, threads like this will appear. It's the only thing that's possible.

So do make sure that by going down over this nonsense you take down as many as possible.

This is nothing new, it happens in every game. But only two things follow. The company either adopts zero-tolerance policy, and stops accepting appeals, or they stop dealing with exploits, and let them run rampant, writing off the game.

So far, Anet is still trying to balance things. So do make sure you show them how futile and pointless that is, so that they may skip to the above to outcomes immediately, then go back doing something more productive, such as developing GW2.

Every example so far has shown that reasoning with MMO communities is pointless.