Avatar of Balthazar
Sirius-NZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord
I use Avatar of Balthazar just so I can learn more about the profession, im thinking of changing to another avatar though what would you suggest? Ive also captured a majority of the avatars....so yea ...just looking around
If you're playing PvE, Lyssa is probably the most straightforward to use and the most universally effective.
Basically you'll want to load up on quick-activating attacks - like Eremite's Attack and Mystic Sweep (you'll notice they have an activation time - this is shorter than the time between the swings of a Dervish's scythe so it makes it faster) and use them like interrupts; go especially for the casters, and try to whack as many of those quick attacks as possible in on them when they're casting a spell (the longer the duration the easier it is to hit). It'll do quite a lot of damage.
More information about effective Lyssa builds is available in this thread (note other builds e.g. Melandru are here also):
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10244740
The PvE-only Lyssa build under section 8 is the one I'm talking about. It doesn't have any defensive skills, meaning you'll need to rely on your monks to help you out there, but the damage it deals out more than makes up for it.
Good luck with your quest.
Basically you'll want to load up on quick-activating attacks - like Eremite's Attack and Mystic Sweep (you'll notice they have an activation time - this is shorter than the time between the swings of a Dervish's scythe so it makes it faster) and use them like interrupts; go especially for the casters, and try to whack as many of those quick attacks as possible in on them when they're casting a spell (the longer the duration the easier it is to hit). It'll do quite a lot of damage.
More information about effective Lyssa builds is available in this thread (note other builds e.g. Melandru are here also):
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10244740
The PvE-only Lyssa build under section 8 is the one I'm talking about. It doesn't have any defensive skills, meaning you'll need to rely on your monks to help you out there, but the damage it deals out more than makes up for it.
Good luck with your quest.
M @ T
The only way I can think of that somebody can use AoB is by using Frenzy making you have a 33% IAS and 33% speed boost. Still the other avatars are better but that's the only way a Dervish can perhaps use AoB.. Then ofcourse you add Rush, Wild Blow blah blah.. Still AoG(buffed) and AoM is better tho.
Sirius-NZ
Seriously, if they swapped the run speed for 33% (or even 25% would be enough) IAS, you could do stuff like:
AoB
Pious Haste
Crippling Victory
Wild Blow
Pious Assault
Eremite's Attack
Something else (perhaps Rending Touch, Imbue Health or Victorious Sweep)
Res
and it'd actually be a respectable build for PvP. Needing no enchantments can be an advantage with some of those Dervish skills.
AoB
Pious Haste
Crippling Victory
Wild Blow
Pious Assault
Eremite's Attack
Something else (perhaps Rending Touch, Imbue Health or Victorious Sweep)
Res
and it'd actually be a respectable build for PvP. Needing no enchantments can be an advantage with some of those Dervish skills.
Sir Pandra Pierva
but will anet do that no
yum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius-NZ
Seriously, if they swapped the run speed for 33% (or even 25% would be enough) IAS, you could do stuff like:
AoB
Pious Haste
Crippling Victory
Wild Blow
Pious Assault
Eremite's Attack
Something else (perhaps Rending Touch, Imbue Health or Victorious Sweep)
Res
and it'd actually be a respectable build for PvP. Needing no enchantments can be an advantage with some of those Dervish skills. And you got an upgraded version of thumper. GJ. That's what this game needs.
AoB
Pious Haste
Crippling Victory
Wild Blow
Pious Assault
Eremite's Attack
Something else (perhaps Rending Touch, Imbue Health or Victorious Sweep)
Res
and it'd actually be a respectable build for PvP. Needing no enchantments can be an advantage with some of those Dervish skills. And you got an upgraded version of thumper. GJ. That's what this game needs.
moriz
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phantom
you can only be as good as your skillbar will let you.
you got it backwards: your build is only as good as YOU are.
take for example, farin from DF and a noob player straight out of RA. give farin a mending wammo, give the other player a shock axe. even though the shock axe is a better build that the mending wammo, farin can still beat the shit out of the random player.
similarly, if i'm doing a gvg, and the only warrior player i have access to can only play a mending wammo, i'll let him play it. i CAN force him to play a shock axe, but he'll still play like a mending wammo (but without the mending).
of course, my examples are pretty extreme. but the point stands: YOU ultimately decide how well you perform on the battlefield. what you bring on your skillbar is a distant second in terms of importance.
now back to this thread:
avatar of melandru and lyssa are better than balthazar. that kinda goes without saying. however, there are players who play at their peak efficiency with avatar of balthazar, something that they cannot do with melandru and lyssa. by forcing them to play a melandru or lyssa will actually make them LESS effective, had we simply let them play their balthazar build.
each build plays different from others. each player plays the same builds different than any other player. the best build makers match the right players with the builds they are most comfortable with, and not force the players to play a certain build just because it is the most effective on paper.
take for example, farin from DF and a noob player straight out of RA. give farin a mending wammo, give the other player a shock axe. even though the shock axe is a better build that the mending wammo, farin can still beat the shit out of the random player.
similarly, if i'm doing a gvg, and the only warrior player i have access to can only play a mending wammo, i'll let him play it. i CAN force him to play a shock axe, but he'll still play like a mending wammo (but without the mending).
of course, my examples are pretty extreme. but the point stands: YOU ultimately decide how well you perform on the battlefield. what you bring on your skillbar is a distant second in terms of importance.
now back to this thread:
avatar of melandru and lyssa are better than balthazar. that kinda goes without saying. however, there are players who play at their peak efficiency with avatar of balthazar, something that they cannot do with melandru and lyssa. by forcing them to play a melandru or lyssa will actually make them LESS effective, had we simply let them play their balthazar build.
each build plays different from others. each player plays the same builds different than any other player. the best build makers match the right players with the builds they are most comfortable with, and not force the players to play a certain build just because it is the most effective on paper.
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
They may not be able to use rifles very well, but it's still better than having them try to fight with water, and - better yet! - by being forced to use rifles, they may even learn to use them.
Balthazar is a water pistol, and I'd rather force players to use rifles hoping that they get better.
analogies are fun
Coloneh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex
They may not be able to use rifles very well, but it's still better than having them try to fight with water, and - better yet! - by being forced to use rifles, they may even learn to use them.
Balthazar is a water pistol, and I'd rather force players to use rifles hoping that they get better.
analogies are fun
another good analogy from alex. im beginning to look forward to posts like this
Bobby2
OMG this reeks of constructive discussion
I largely agree with you Moriz, but yeah one can't deny the difference in quality between some skills. In a perfect world (game balance) you'd be 100% right but sadly...
I largely agree with you Moriz, but yeah one can't deny the difference in quality between some skills. In a perfect world (game balance) you'd be 100% right but sadly...
moriz
i'd rather they use water guns. at least they don't run the risk of accidently shooting themselves. or each other. you'll never know, maybe i'll arm them with lemon juice instead of water, and they can blind their enemies with squirts to the eyes!
but anyways, the analogy between water guns and rifles is not particularly accurate when it comes to the avatar of balthazar discussion. a better analogy would be between a glock (balthazar) and a desert eagle (melandru/lyssa). one is easier to use but not as effective, the other is far more powerful but harder to handle.
but anyways, the analogy between water guns and rifles is not particularly accurate when it comes to the avatar of balthazar discussion. a better analogy would be between a glock (balthazar) and a desert eagle (melandru/lyssa). one is easier to use but not as effective, the other is far more powerful but harder to handle.
Stormlord Alex
Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
); or maybe some monk skill discussion - whereby, if the player in question (MM or healer, here) screws up, he will hurt his team bad... However, for AoB vs AoL/M/G/D - a dervish can't kill himself or his team by running another avatar that he's not used to, so I really don't buy it.Quote:
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one is easier to use but not as effective, the other is far more powerful but harder to handle.
I don't see what's so hard to handle about maintaining Mel, and pushing Wearying on recharge. The only real problem a bad player will have is that Mel won't let him have the energy he needs to maintain all his shit tanking Earth Prayer crap, which will force him to be a better player because he's no longer wasting time and energy on casting them. Hopefully. Sorry, moriz - I usually agree with you on shit, but... Being bad isn't an excuse to run Balth. Bad players run AoB because they see the buffs it gives and (wrongly) think that it's worth using, not because playing balth fits their playstyle (yeeah, I've tried AoB before... it changes nothing about how you handle your derv, imo)
moriz
eh, maybe it's because i pretty much /FAIL when it comes to playing melee, but i personally found avatar of balthazar much easier to play than the other avatars. it's a sort of "all in one, press-this-button-to-go-batshit-insane-and-get-away-with-it" kind of skill that just happens to make up my lack of skill at playing melee. i just don't get the same effect on melandru and lyssa for some odd reason, even though they should on paper.
Stormlord Alex
Just for lulz, replace Balth with Pious Haste or Rush and keep that up.
... you'll realise that that's all AoB really does for you. Mel is... well... godmode - lol @ blindbots, cripshots, spikes, with Eviscirape spam; Grenth is lol @ eles, monks and Aegis chains; Lyssa is retard damage spam; and Dwayna is lol @ them times when mobs like filling up your monitor with purple arrows. Balthy, bless 'im, is Rush/Pious, except elite.
Sirius-NZ
The +40 armor isn't completely irrelevant. It's not hard to counter, either, but it does stop you being a "squishie" to assassins or warriors.
It's just that I don't really think it's worth it. blurmedia
I saw [ugly] run a derv with AoB in a gvg against dR today. wow.........
~ Dan ~
Quote:
Originally Posted by blurmedia
I saw [ugly] run a derv with AoB in a gvg against dR today. wow.........
Very hard to convince nublets it's a nublet skill when they see it on TV
Div
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-the-noob
Very hard to convince nublets it's a nublet skill when they see it on TV
It's one of those skills that are stronger for PvP than PvE, but has so many "buffs" that PvErs love to run. If you look at it, the speed boost is nearly completely useless in PvE, but very powerful in PvP. The holy damage is minimally useful in PvE outside of undead areas, but can be huge in PvP with players packing slashing shields and whatnot.Seeing it in PvP will make bad players say "hey I saw it on TV it must be good then" only if they ran it in the first place. Otherwise, they'd just say "PvP builds have nothing to do with PvE builds" and continue to run their mending healing hands wammo instead of dragon slash warrior. That said, in most cases lyssa and melandrus are still much better than balthazar, but it's undeniable that balthazar is a better PvP skill than PvE.
moko
one of my guildies seemed to believe that AoB was the perfect avatar to run in hexbuilds (after the Pious Assault and VoD change)
now, that Grenth has been buffed, he pretty much changed his mind though. :P Quote:
I saw [ugly] run a derv with AoB in a gvg against dR today. wow........
they also beat the living crap out of ei, with aob of course.
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Red_Dragon56
I think I said this earier in this topic. But AoB is pretty much (in pve) a "running around" skill. Having a large speed boost when you are just trying to get to a specific quest area is helpful, mixed with Eternal Aura and you have a permanent 33% extra movement speed.
Now, in the Nightfall campaign at least, it is useful because of Holy damage, which hurts a lot of things. Then the +40 armor which makes you less squishy. It has uses in PvE (Pretty much frees up 2-3 other skill slots for recovery or other things, fairly easy to maintain, and can't be stripped). Now in PvP. AoM is still pretty overpowered. The 25 energy cost is nothing compared to the benefits. I wouldn't be suprised if this gets a Grenth nerf somtime. AoB can be replaced by other skills, meaning you can bring mother tree out and still get the benefits (with maybe the exception of armor, but you don't need that with mother tree) The only benefit to having AoB is pretty much the benefit to having it in PvE, it saves skill slots and can't be stripped off. If you even call it a benefit.
Div
Quote:
Originally Posted by moko
they also beat the living crap out of ei, with aob of course.
It doesn't help that smgz was specced into sword when he ran an evis bar. And only realized it ~12 minutes into the game, which by then ei lost their entire base minus the bodyguard.
AoB > unspecced warrior? I think so 
Sir Pandra Pierva
man i always miss the fun times in GvG
6am3 Fana71c
I still don't get it, why [ugly] ran AoB...
Doesn't matter anyway, they got their asses handed to them :S Splinter on warriors = gg
blue.rellik
Quote:
Originally Posted by holymasamune
It's one of those skills that are stronger for PvP than PvE, but has so many "buffs" that PvErs love to run. If you look at it, the speed boost is nearly completely useless in PvE, but very powerful in PvP. The holy damage is minimally useful in PvE outside of undead areas, but can be huge in PvP with players packing slashing shields and whatnot.
Seeing it in PvP will make bad players say "hey I saw it on TV it must be good then" only if they ran it in the first place. Otherwise, they'd just say "PvP builds have nothing to do with PvE builds" and continue to run their mending healing hands wammo instead of dragon slash warrior. That said, in most cases lyssa and melandrus are still much better than balthazar, but it's undeniable that balthazar is a better PvP skill than PvE. When I first read your post, I quickly skimmed over it and it instantly reminded me when Ensign said that tanking the NPCs at VoD should be done with a warrior since they can use Dolyak  But then I read your post properly and understood the context, it made sense blurmedia
...And now DF is using them. Can someone post that build?:S
Pyro maniac
[StS] versus [epiQ]
Also AoB dervish. Tyla
I thought it would come to discussion that that GvG yesterday would come here...
Question to them about AoB - WHY THE HELL DID THEY USE IT?! O_O
moriz
the build is essentially AoB, attacker's insight, grenth's aura, pious fury, chilling victory, and pious assault. fill out the remaining slots with whatever you want.
JR
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
I thought it would come to discussion that that GvG yesterday would come here...
Question to them about AoB - WHY THE HELL DID THEY USE IT?! O_O Because you no longer need Avatar of Melandru and Wearying to get a deep wound. With the buff to pious you essentially also free up your elite for other forms. AoB has higher armor which allows you to extend deeper without fear of being spiked down, and the speed boost makes training opponents even more effective - as you can combine it with an IAS too. Personally I'm still not a huge fan of it, but it is defiantely viable in the right build.
Arkantos
Whoever created it created it. No use in arguing over it, because anyone can say they created it and get e-friends to back it up. End of argument.
blue.rellik
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR
Because you no longer need Avatar of Melandru and Wearying to get a deep wound. With the buff to pious you essentially also free up your elite for other forms.
AoB has higher armor which allows you to extend deeper without fear of being spiked down, and the speed boost makes training opponents even more effective - as you can combine it with an IAS too. Personally I'm still not a huge fan of it, but it is defiantely viable in the right build. Wow....just wow, Izzy has succeeded in budging the tree!
Sirius-NZ
AoB has always been reasonably popular in PvP. It's never been particularly good, but apparently there's enough of an illusion that it is for people to use it.
I shudder to think how you'd manage energy with the build above, by the way. Lot of 10e skills there.
Bowstring Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR
Because you no longer need Avatar of Melandru and Wearying to get a deep wound. With the buff to pious you essentially also free up your elite for other forms.
AoB has higher armor which allows you to extend deeper without fear of being spiked down, and the speed boost makes training opponents even more effective - as you can combine it with an IAS too. Personally I'm still not a huge fan of it, but it is defiantely viable in the right build. Frenzy on a dervish anyone? xDusT II
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius-NZ
AoB has always been reasonably popular in PvP. It's never been particularly good, but apparently there's enough of an illusion that it is for people to use it.
I shudder to think how you'd manage energy with the build above, by the way. Lot of 10e skills there. Attacker's Insight gives you a free Chilling Victory and Pious Assault.
LightningHell
Quote:
AoB has always been reasonably popular in PvP. It's never been particularly good, but apparently there's enough of an illusion that it is for people to use it.
You mean RA, because until recently there wasn't any use for AoB in more competitive play.
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Sirius-NZ
...there is now?
Generally, I mean RA yes, but it also applies to alliance battles. The case there is a little bit more compelling, but a Melandru build with Pious Haste is still better.
Ensign
The change to Pious Assault broke Melandru's monopoly on Deep Wound. Without the tree, Dervishes lack a true go-to elite, and all your important abilities can be covered without spending your elite. All of the forms are on the table, as well as elites from any secondary you feel like bringing.
Avatar of Balthazar has a decent amount of PvP power; while it is up you can do anything you feel like doing. You're not going to blow up with 110 armor, and with the nerf to Pious Haste nothing can catch a Balthazar Dervish. The main knocks on the form are that it doesn't add any new abilities, and it doesn't really compress your bar - do you really want to play without a speed boost during the form's downtime? But in the absence of a killer elite, one that lets you run around and do anything you like has a lot of appeal, and I don't fault people for taking advantage of that at all.
Darkside
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
The change to Pious Assault broke Melandru's monopoly on Deep Wound. Without the tree, Dervishes lack a true go-to elite, and all your important abilities can be covered without spending your elite. All of the forms are on the table, as well as elites from any secondary you feel like bringing.
Avatar of Balthazar has a decent amount of PvP power; while it is up you can do anything you feel like doing. You're not going to blow up with 110 armor, and with the nerf to Pious Haste nothing can catch a Balthazar Dervish. The main knocks on the form are that it doesn't add any new abilities, and it doesn't really compress your bar - do you really want to play without a speed boost during the form's downtime? But in the absence of a killer elite, one that lets you run around and do anything you like has a lot of appeal, and I don't fault people for taking advantage of that at all. Melandru + Wearying strike is still better then anything and Pious Assault. You run the risk of stripping a critical enchantment at a really bad time be it one of your own or a monks prot. I don't really think it has broken any monopoly since dervish primary's most likely wont be using it. Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR
Because you no longer need Avatar of Melandru and Wearying to get a deep wound. With the buff to pious you essentially also free up your elite for other forms.
AoB has higher armor which allows you to extend deeper without fear of being spiked down, and the speed boost makes training opponents even more effective - as you can combine it with an IAS too. Personally I'm still not a huge fan of it, but it is defiantely viable in the right build. I expected Rush to be used to be honest. Like the D/W AoM Dervish.
6am3 Fana71c
Saw dR using it aswell recently. Kinda wierd... But yeah, I agree with Ensign, there isn't any viable elites for dervish out there except his formes, since they can cover everything they need without using elite skill (speed boost, ench removal, Deep Wound...). Only thing that bugs me is 30 sec cooldown with both AoB and Lyssa (which I prefer)...Maybe dervishes should pack [skill]Shatter Storm[/skill]
Lawl 
blue.rellik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside
Melandru + Wearying strike is still better then anything and Pious Assault. You run the risk of stripping a critical enchantment at a really bad time be it one of your own or a monks prot. I don't really think it has broken any monopoly since dervish primary's most likely wont be using it.
You do realize that a dervish is allowed to not use their skills?
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