My paragon's buddies

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

08 May 2008 at 20:28 - 321

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

Nope, not dreaming. If you're running hench monks with this, the prot hench has PS so you don't need it cluttering up your orders. If you have a friend with heroes, have them run a decent build so you don't need it cluttering up your orders. I prefer to H/H most of the time. And I hate to bring Lina (aka Miss Wammo) if I can help it, Mhenlo is usually enough for my hench monk needs. The rest of the hench slots are for damage.

- Tain -

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

[SMS]

08 May 2008 at 20:34 - 322

I do the same.. and you really, really don't need PS. Not only are the attributes wasted that could be used on something effective, heroes aren't even good with it - they like to spam it at the first sign of damage, regardless of amount. So why waste the atts and micro a skill you don't need? Unless you're going into an area with a substantial amount of armor-ignoring damage, it's just that - a waste.

Edit: If you want to add something defensive onto the bar, go ahead. But the prot is not your best option. I'd go with hex removal (SS, Blurred Vision, Soothing Images, Faintheartedness, etc. all screw with your imba), or wards/blind/weakness. The better option, imo, is to lean more offensively. It's not like you don't have overpowered defense or predictable enemies, and dead things won't hurt you either.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

08 May 2008 at 20:38 - 323

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

08 May 2008 at 20:43 - 324

That's because PS is supposed to be used on the first sign of damage. Only if it's huge damage though.

When an ally is low on health, that ally needs healing, maybe an RoF aswell for safety.

- Tain -

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

[SMS]

08 May 2008 at 20:45 - 325

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Heroes do work with PS. Check out Sabway. Sabway runs with minions which fuel SR which lets them spam things. Like PS. And Sabway doesn't have an imba.

And yes, PS is supposed to be used at the first sign of large damage, not a wanding enemy monk (it happens).

Edit: Please defend why aegis/PS is a better choice than other things, rather than spamming the thread with stubborn ignorance.

legacyofkain85

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2006

Lady Ainowa

08 May 2008 at 21:27 - 326

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Are we talking about Rac's build on this thread? He doesn't have a monk build to fix, besides Mhenlo and possibly Lina. You must be dreaming of some other hero team build and gone OT. mhenlo and lina are more than enough to keep u alive if u keep the team alive with your tntf+sy chain

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

08 May 2008 at 22:40 - 327

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

Sabway runs with minions which fuel SR which lets them spam things. Like PS. And Sabway doesn't have an imba.

But the point you were making is, that heroes dont even use PS right. You said:-

Quote: Originally Posted by - Tain - heroes aren't even good with it - they like to spam it at the first sign of damage, regardless of amount. So why waste the atts and micro a skill you don't need? Unless you're going into an area with a substantial amount of armor-ignoring damage, it's just that - a waste. I still dont see why imbagons who are not affected by their own SY would have no use for any protection at all. What would you recommend?

Quote:

Originally Posted by legacyofkain85

mhenlo and lina are more than enough to keep u alive if u keep the team alive with your tntf+sy chain Like I have said, I dont wish to bring Lina if I can help it. The reason why I brought PS on my hero is so that I dont need to bring Lina in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

That's because PS is supposed to be used on the first sign of damage. Only if it's huge damage though.

When an ally is low on health, that ally needs healing, maybe an RoF aswell for safety. That kind of makes sense. I was considering bringing RoF instead.

- Tain -

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

[SMS]

09 May 2008 at 00:05 - 328

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

But the point you were making is, that heroes dont even use PS right. You said:-

I also said this:
Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

And yes, PS is supposed to be used at the first sign of large damage, not a wanding enemy monk (it happens).

Quote: Originally Posted by DarkSpirit I still dont see why imbagons who are not affected by their own SY would have no use for any protection at all. What would you recommend? If you really want to use prot, go with small prots - SoA and Guardian are effective and efficient when enemies focus fire (most of the time). But, I also said this:
Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

But the prot is not your best option. I'd go with hex removal (SS, Blurred Vision, Soothing Images, Faintheartedness, etc. all screw with your imba), or wards/blind/weakness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Like I have said, I dont wish to bring Lina if I can help it. The reason why I brought PS on my hero is so that I dont need to bring Lina in the first place. I also don't like to bring her if I don't have to. As well as the defensive options I listed above, the paragons are flexible and can handle a skill switch here and there. Angelic Bond if you find you're being spiked out, or something simple like Finale of Restoration if it's just pressure. Etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

That kind of makes sense. I was considering bringing RoF instead. RoF is excellent for a human monk - very useful if someone is low, you can RoF before the WoH to make sure you don't lose them during the 3/4s cast. I've found heroes tend to spam it, which is fine on a healer but would distract the orders from his job too much.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

09 May 2008 at 00:13 - 329

Quote:

Originally Posted by - Tain -

RoF is excellent for a human monk - very useful if someone is low, you can RoF before the WoH to make sure you don't lose them during the 3/4s cast. I've found heroes tend to spam it, which is fine on a healer but would distract the orders from his job too much. That was what I saw from the D/N hero too, healing herself or kiting too much rather than casting her orders.

I dont know if they would overspam RoF but I have seen RoF works on monk heroes before. I would have to try it out.

FyrFytr998

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Connecticut USA

[ITPR]

09 May 2008 at 01:50 - 330

Okay, right off the bat I will fess up that I have ZERO wiki skills.

Isn't it about time Racway was put up on PvX Wiki?

I think it's deserving, based on all the positive responses, to get an article going.

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

09 May 2008 at 01:52 - 331

I hate trying to write things on PvX.

FyrFytr998

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Connecticut USA

[ITPR]

09 May 2008 at 01:55 - 332

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I hate trying to write things on PvX. Lol, well, at least you're honest.

Coloneh

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Nov 2006

D/W

09 May 2008 at 02:41 - 333

anything on PvX gets modified by unmoderated idiots until its totally useless. best not to bother. we have the template codes and everything here.

Bront

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Honored Order of Light

W/Me

09 May 2008 at 02:54 - 334

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Nice. I was thinking of something like this:

[build prof=N/Mo box name="Orders Support" blo=12+1+3 sou=9+1 pro=9][Signet of Removal][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Masochism][Protective Spirit][Aegis][Vengeance][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

...or alteratively, replace vengeance with a heal like Blood Renewal. I'd replace Prot Spirit with Extinguish for a party wide condition removal. Heroes tend to use that better than Prot Spirit anyway, and as others have said, you have lots of protection.

Aegis isn't bad, it protects the human paragon, and is a backup in case there's a break in SY and/or TNTF

- Tain -

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

[SMS]

09 May 2008 at 03:37 - 335

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

anything on PvX gets modified by unmoderated idiots until its totally useless. best not to bother. we have the template codes and everything here.

QFT. No reason to, and too much hassle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

I'd replace Prot Spirit with Extinguish for a party wide condition removal. Heroes tend to use that better than Prot Spirit anyway, and as others have said, you have lots of protection.

Aegis isn't bad, it protects the human paragon, and is a backup in case there's a break in SY and/or TNTF You realize that he'll use Extinguish to remove Cracked Armor, if that's the only condition removal on him. And small prots (guardian/soa) will do better than aegis for the most part.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

09 May 2008 at 03:52 - 336

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

I'd replace Prot Spirit with Extinguish for a party wide condition removal. Heroes tend to use that better than Prot Spirit anyway, and as others have said, you have lots of protection.

Aegis isn't bad, it protects the human paragon, and is a backup in case there's a break in SY and/or TNTF There is no need for Extinguish when you already have Signet of Removal.

Heroes cast protective spirit just fine from my own observations despite what was said, but short duration enchantments like RoF, SoA and Patient Spirit would benefit my Pious Renewal build better.

Bront

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Honored Order of Light

W/Me

09 May 2008 at 04:48 - 337

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

There is no need for Extinguish when you already have Signet of Removal.

Heroes cast protective spirit just fine from my own observations despite what was said, but short duration enchantments like RoF, SoA and Patient Spirit would benefit my Pious Renewal build better. Patient Spirit is heal, so RoF, SoA, and Shielding Hands might work better, and also work well instead of PS or Extinguish.

My knowledge on Extinguish is more general use (which I've seen used fairly well) than anything else.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

09 May 2008 at 05:15 - 338

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

Patient Spirit is heal, so RoF, SoA, and Shielding Hands might work better, and also work well instead of PS or Extinguish.

My knowledge on Extinguish is more general use (which I've seen used fairly well) than anything else. I would consider shielding hands. I prefer Signet of Removal to Extinguish as it removes hex as well, at very low recharge, 0e.

Bront

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2008

Honored Order of Light

W/Me

09 May 2008 at 06:43 - 339

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I would consider shielding hands. I prefer Signet of Removal to Extinguish as it removes hex as well, at very low recharge, 0e. If you don't need the Elite spot for something else (which you don't) then it makes sense.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

09 May 2008 at 07:06 - 340

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bront

If you don't need the Elite spot for something else (which you don't) then it makes sense. Signet of Removal is good for a secondary monk in an orders group for hex and condition removal and worth its elite spot.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

10 May 2008 at 09:16 - 341

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I use this when I Urgoz:

[Splinter Support;OAhkQoGbYIqEGjhwkwcwWQV1W4FD]
Minor Blood on the hat and pop a conset naturally. Just tried it and I must say bringing Well of Power as the elite is brilliant!

Although I changed the build since I dont like the hero saccing herself to death with Blood Renewal. I also took the DF out to another hero (i.e. the healing D/N, she only needs 5 to Blood) and ended up with a 2 N/Mo (1 curse and 1 blood) and 1 D/N team. I didn't bring Splinter Weapon but I brought more defensive skills instead.

Racthoh

Did I hear 7 heroes?

Join Date: May 2005

Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)

11 May 2008 at 07:24 - 342

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Just tried it and I must say bringing Well of Power as the elite is brilliant!

It's a decent enough elite in a place like Urgoz when you're routinely providing +6 health and +2 energy regeneration to 6-8 people for a fair amount of the duration. Anywhere else and the fights are either too quick or pointless; my physicals don't really need energy regeneration. Outside of Urgoz I'd use Blood Ritual or cringe at the elite options from Blood Magic, Soul Reaping, and Channeling Magic.

Quote: Originally Posted by DarkSpirit Although I changed the build since I dont like the hero saccing herself to death with Blood Renewal. A hero saccing health works great. It will either grab the attention of everything around you making prots simple on other AI heroes or go unnoticed by the enemy. It's an annoyance to human monks that stare at the red bars because they won't be able to tell the difference between damage and saccing, often resulting in wasted energy on unnecessary prots/healing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

and ended up with a 2 N/Mo (1 curse and 1 blood) Blood Magic?

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

11 May 2008 at 08:14 - 343

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Blood Magic?

Yes I have been playing with this crazy build for areas that are "not so friendly" to Paragons, dont ask me why but it sort of works.

I am still tweaking it.

[P/W Me;OQGjUymIqSubieAhpbBZWYlehfA]

[N/Mo Orders;OANEQsl38JtFYIAVtSEQUVlAuTA]
[D/N Orders;OgSkQUq6qyqzkg9mfvv2X972N8C]
[N/Mo Curse;OANCY8xjmuMkIsDfid3OpqC]

The D/N is quite strong here but she can't be relied upon to cast DF as soon as it recharges if the team needs healing. Thus, the Mark of Fury to help out. D/N can be set to passive, the others to guard. I bring Mhenlo, Zho, Talon, and Aidan.

Just remember to disable the 2 vengeance when the fight is over and someone has died. When all have been properly resurrected, then reenable them. At least you dont have to worry so much about enchant stripping on vengeance, in this case.

distilledwill

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Blighty

The Legion of the Blue Blade

R/Mo

11 May 2008 at 14:35 - 344

^ why 3 curses on the top build?

Ive been trying all day to incorporate WoP into a build, what ive come out with is similar to DarkSpirits. But has a couple of changes:

[WoP Orders;OANDQrpvObhJhhoTA1CIV1dC]

SR headpiece (mainly because thats what my livia has had for a while now) and a minor blood rune.

im yet to see whether all that saccing is a little too much, it seems to synergise well with all of my other builds.

- Tain -

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

[SMS]

11 May 2008 at 15:25 - 345

Mark of Fury sucks. If things you cast it on are alive long enough for you to get a serious benefit from it, just.... wow - you're doing it wrong.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

11 May 2008 at 15:46 - 346

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

^ why 3 curses on the top build?

Must be left over from my experiments but they are spare attribute points anyway so they shouldn't matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh A hero saccing health works great. It will either grab the attention of everything around you making prots simple on other AI heroes or go unnoticed by the enemy. It's an annoyance to human monks that stare at the red bars because they won't be able to tell the difference between damage and saccing, often resulting in wasted energy on unnecessary prots/healing. You are right. Having all that sac skills tend to draw enemy fire and I find that the orders hero would either kite from melee (even at +100 armor) or, if she is equipped with healing skills like the D/N, spends her energy healing herself instead of casting orders. One way to help fix that is to give her healing skills that have longer recharge so she can't spam them. The other way is to split up the orders so that if one of them dies, or is busy doing something else, you still have the other guy (hopefully).

Quote: Renewal is suppose to be spammed every 8 seconds.

Zeal doesn't heal, Renewal does. Zeal can potentially grant more energy than Renewal but if the D/N is not in need of energy throughout the fight, then Renewal makes more sense. The D/N actually has 10+1+1 for mysticism. She gains about 6 energy each time she loses an enchantment and she loses/gains an enchantment often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

im yet to see whether all that saccing is a little too much, it seems to synergise well with all of my other builds. The best answer would be to try it out in the most "paragon unfriendly" places in the game. In Rac's default build on the first page, I find that the D/N is usually the first to die when encountering a tough mob. If the D/N dies, then you lose OOP, DF, and a healer which kind of hurts. The main problem I have with the default build is the lack of skills to break enemy defenses, especially blocking and enchants, so I find my curse N/Mo to be quite useful for a more universal build.

In "paragon friendly" areas, I can probably get away with the D/N carrying both DF and OOP and replacing the blood N/Mo with a Paragon hero.

distilledwill

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2006

Blighty

The Legion of the Blue Blade

R/Mo

11 May 2008 at 15:50 - 347

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

War My Guild

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2008

ICE

Mo/E

11 May 2008 at 16:21 - 348

K, so my paragon's coming along nicely. I've taken a liking to the class in general.

Just posting to ask a simple question: What runes should go on which heroes? And on you?

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

11 May 2008 at 16:37 - 349

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

Tried this out whilst vanquishing Mount Quinkai, it was a little "meh". I think I might try it as a Blood/Channeling Hybrid, like in Halls. I usually try it out on the charrs in Dalada Uplands just outside Doomlore Shrine in HM with their stupid Aegis.

Mr Pink57

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2007

a van down by the river

iBench

P/W

16 May 2008 at 00:13 - 350

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

[D/N Orders;OgSkQUq6qyqzkg9mfvv2X972N8C] I've tried renewal on a hero and they just spam to no end. I personally think you get more out of Zeal vs Renewal because you also have to take into account recast (which means less OoP/DF), and monk enchants being cast upon the D/N (as we all know they cannot tell if its a sac or damage).

Also on your bottom curses I would take Enfeebling over Weaken to stop a lotta dmg in HM on your now caster heavy build.

pink

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

16 May 2008 at 01:39 - 351

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Pink57

I've tried renewal on a hero and they just spam to no end. I personally think you get more out of Zeal vs Renewal because you also have to take into account recast (which means less OoP/DF), and monk enchants being cast upon the D/N (as we all know they cannot tell if its a sac or damage).

Also on your bottom curses I would take Enfeebling over Weaken to stop a lotta dmg in HM on your now caster heavy build.

pink And I have both. Notice that the henchies who make up half the team, are all physical except for Mhenlo. Your own Paragon character is physical.

In some areas, you may be able to replace the N/Mo orders with a SoP Paragon hero more easily. The 1 D/N, 2 N/Mo, build I showed above is only for those areas that are unfriendly to physicals. In physical friendly areas, Rac's default build kills faster.

This is what I have so far (with base attributes), if I bring a Paragon hero:

[D/N Orders;OgSkQoq56xqzkwQkfZv2X972N8C]
[N/Mo Curse;OANCY8xjmuMkIsDfid3OpqC]
[P SoP Motivational Paragon;OQCkUqmxpiuk7WFmIGHWKWRmvo8G]

GWEN Henchies: Mhenlo, Talon, Aidan, Zho.

Nemesis of God

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2008

Finland

Azura Empire [AE]

Mo/E

16 May 2008 at 12:59 - 352

What build do you suggest for monk?

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

16 May 2008 at 15:45 - 353

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemesis of God

What build do you suggest for monk? Good question. Without trying it out, maybe something like that:

Mo/W(Protect)
===========
Life Sheath(E)
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Holy Veil/Remove Hex
Flurry
FGJ
SY!
Vengeance/Dismiss Condition

or

Mo/W(Heal)
=========
WoH(E)
Dwayna's Kiss
Patient's Spirit
Spotless Mind/Cure Hex
Flurry
FGJ
SY!
Vengeance/Contemplation of Purity

or

Mo/W(Smite)
==========
Boon Signet(E)
Smite Hex
Smite Condition
Reversal of Damage
Flurry
FGJ
SY!
Vengeance

...use a spear or wand. And these are obviously not monk hero builds.

or go for sabway.

deluxe

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Monkeyball Z

S.K.A.T. [Ban]

Mo/

18 May 2008 at 16:12 - 354

Guys, what am I missing about [vengeance] that makes that skill good to put on all your heroes all of the sudden??? Guy above me sticks it everywhere.
I think DarkSpirit should stop trying to give people advice.

Problem.

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2008

Mo/

18 May 2008 at 16:29 - 355

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Good question. Without trying it out, maybe something like that:

Mo/W(Protect)
===========
Life Sheath(E)
Protective Spirit
Aegis
Holy Veil/Remove Hex
Flurry
FGJ
SY!
Vengeance/Dismiss Condition

or

Mo/W(Heal)
=========
WoH(E)
Dwayna's Kiss
Patient's Spirit
Spotless Mind/Cure Hex
Flurry
FGJ
SY!
Vengeance/Contemplation of Purity

or

Mo/W(Smite)
==========
Boon Signet(E)
Smite Hex
Smite Condition
Reversal of Damage
Flurry
FGJ
SY!
Vengeance

or go for sabway. I've never seen more terrible builds in my life. Looks like you didn't put any thought into what you posted, especially the boon signet one.

Abedeus

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jan 2007

Niflheim

18 May 2008 at 17:55 - 356

Agree. 3 melee casters are bad, very bad. You can't deal damage (Flurry?), you can't protect correctly, you can't heal correctly. And no e-management.

XDeadboltX

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2008

18 May 2008 at 19:52 - 357

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Agree. 3 melee casters are bad, very bad. You can't deal damage (Flurry?), you can't protect correctly, you can't heal correctly. And no e-management. Those were seperate suggestions for a monk build. Not 3 monks in one team using those skills.

I would suggest dragon slash spammer if you REALLY want to play it on your monk, and also bring protective spirit and shield of absorption for yourself? Its not really a good idea to run SY! on your monk, but if you really want to i suggest not trying to heal at all, but that would kinda defeat the purpose of you being a monk.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

19 May 2008 at 16:54 - 358

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

Before you theory craft have you ever tried it out on a hero in HM? And Vengeance synergizes with orders build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Agree. 3 melee casters are bad, very bad. You can't deal damage (Flurry?) And yes the monk builds are "untried" suggestions for the guy who asked for a SY build for his monk. Were you expecting a 3 monk heroes build spamming SY?

I thought it was obvious also that a spear or a wand is recommended for such builds. And the spear is not for damage either since you have 0 to spear mastery anyway. It is to charge up adrenaline for SY.

@Problem.: [[Boon Signet] is for energy management than for healing, which synergizes with orders build.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

19 May 2008 at 17:06 - 359

If you are spamming SY / D-Slash on your Monk, you can't really Prot and Heal as easily as it will cut down the amount of SY's you pull out.

It can work, but I doubt it working effectively.

DarkSpirit

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Feb 2006

Redmond

19 May 2008 at 17:14 - 360

Quote:

Originally Posted by XDeadboltX

I would suggest dragon slash spammer if you REALLY want to play it on your monk, and also bring protective spirit and shield of absorption for yourself? Its not really a good idea to run SY! on your monk, but if you really want to i suggest not trying to heal at all, but that would kinda defeat the purpose of you being a monk. I agree that SY spamming doesn't go well with a monk. If I really want to try it out on my monk for some reason, I would bring enough healing from henchies and heroes.

The monk should just use a spear/wand+flurry+FGJ to charge up adrenaline for SY. 60AL and melee don't mix well.