Should Lootscaling be removed after the new Rtm policy? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

cebalrai

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2007

Mature Gaming Association

Me/E

27 Mar 2008 at 15:35 - 961

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Sigh. Trading between players does not create a single gold piece in the economy, so it is not productive activity (the goods must come from elsewhere). Neither does it get taxed if it doesn't go through traders, and hence it's a part of the black market. The only essential issues are sources through which new wealth come into the economy and sinks that remove it. Player-to-player trading does neither.

From the seller's perspective, he's getting money. I think that's what he's referring to more than an injection into the economy.

Phaern Majes

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Anywhere but up

The Panserbjorne [ROAR]

R/Mo

27 Mar 2008 at 15:38 - 962

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Sigh. Trading between players does not create a single gold piece in the economy, so it is not productive activity (the goods must come from elsewhere). Neither does it get taxed if it doesn't go through traders, and hence it's a part of the black market. The only essential issues are sources through which new wealth come into the economy and sinks that remove it. Player-to-player trading does neither.

Black market refers to a market that is illegal. Since Anet put a "TRADE" button and window in the game I fail to see how trading is illegal therefore black market.

As for your point, no money may be generated but on a personal level it allows a player to gain a better profit if they trade their items with others. Who cares where the gold originated from, its in my pocket now. A player that takes a req 9 crystalline sword and sells it to the merchant for 300g doesn't make the 100k + however many ectos that the player, who has the exact same sword, makes from trading it to another player. Sure no money is "created" but that player is definitely richer than the other guy.

CHannum

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2007

W/E

27 Mar 2008 at 15:39 - 963

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Since others seem to be even less familiar with basic economical concepts I won't elaborate any further before the level of discussion actually drops below zero (hint, I'm a middle aged scientist and one of the leading experts in the world in my particular field of study, so if there's a disparity in the intellectual level of arguments, don't immediately assume that they are working in your favor

).

No, no matter what your real world credentials, you're coming up with a totally specious, totally non-relevant set of arguments to defend your personal wish for easier income (now who's the communist?

)

It's not a salary cap, it is, if anything, progressive taxation. You don't have a real time line affecting your input/output of capital in the game, so any attempt to relate income per hour of farming pre/post LS is not at all relevant to the two economic extremes you are pretending it is. Nobody is coming to collect the rent/mortgage on the first of every month, nobody is charging your character for time played, nobody is all but forcing you to spend the majority of your time farming just to continue existence in game. No, it IS a game with game goals and no linear progression of time to achieve those goals. The Lich doesn't win because I stopped at Abbadon's Mouth and spent two real months working my character through Nightfall and GWEN because I wanted more heros before tackling the end of Prophecies. If I stop playing the game for a month and come back I still have all the gear and money I had when I left and there's no eviction notice on my door or collection letter agencies because my income dropped to zero during that time.

There is simply no way you can claim LS or no LS that this is anything other than a capitalist system with a killer set of social programs on top of it - your health care and room & board are 100% paid for with nothing expected in return. Plus, like any good capitalist system, because you are rewarded fairly for the basics and more work equals more income, everybody will have some level of disposable income for pursuing the luxury goals of their choice. However, as is oft pointed out, the freedom to pursue luxury goals is not the same as a guarantee of achieving them.

So, stop pretending you've got some secret insight into the game borne out by your real world job, you clearly don't or you wouldn't have made your argument in the first place.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

27 Mar 2008 at 15:48 - 964

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Sigh. Trading between players does not create a single gold piece in the economy, so it is not productive activity (the goods must come from elsewhere). Neither does it get taxed if it doesn't go through traders, and hence it's a part of the black market. The only essential issues are sources through which new wealth come into the economy and sinks that remove it. Player-to-player trading does neither.

XDDD

You are indeed funny. Gold is not meant to be 'created'. Is meant to vanish to prevent inflation. That's why all gold sinks are there.

And Traders DO tax. They tax the buyer, not the seller, by having a difference between the sell and buy prices.
Just look at some minimun sell/buy prices:
Scrolls: Sell 400g, buy 800g.
Dyes: Sell 10g, buy 100g.
Upgrades: Sell 25g, buy 100g.

But when a player chooses to sell to other players, where's the cost?
TIME. Yes, time. If you just farm, you dedicate all your time to farming.
If you trade with other characters, you lose farming time to trade.

Time is gold. That's is something BASIC that anyone knows.

If they added a Xunlai Market it would also have a 'charge', a percentage of the price the seller lose, to compensate the lack of the 'time lost' due to a faster system.

All the truth is in Queen's lyrics. Like "I want it all" or:
http://lyricsletras.blogspot.com/200...-rhapsody.html

Just open your eyes and see.

Cab Tastic

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2007

Rt/

27 Mar 2008 at 16:13 - 965

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Sigh. Trading between players does not create a single gold piece in the economy, so it is not productive activity (the goods must come from elsewhere). Neither does it get taxed if it doesn't go through traders, and hence it's a part of the black market. The only essential issues are sources through which new wealth come into the economy and sinks that remove it. Player-to-player trading does neither.

Tmakinen, you have my sympathies. You make an blindingly obvious point here and get shot down in flames. If such a simple concept as this is being misunderstood how can they possibly deal with understanding the consequences of LS.

LS is hard to defend and its no wonder its being done poorly.

(i) Prices were gradually dropping pre LS and yet all we here about it inflation.

(ii) There is a massive oversupply of almost all items in this game. check out kamadan for WTS spam. Causing lower prices. Inflationary pressure from farming cannot hope to combat the massive oversupply.

(iii) Given the panic patch of LS a few days after implementation exempting a good percentage of drops in GW shows how much thought went into this nerf.
If I made such a bad decision on such an important project i would have to resign on general principle.

(iv) Most importantly of all its a nerf of fun. As I mentioned some time ago its like opening christmas presents only to find nothing inside. It took away a certain aspect of the game which many enjoyed. I used to enjoy running zones with reduced parties to get more drops. In essence creating my own HM. No point now.

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

27 Mar 2008 at 16:16 - 966

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

Black market refers to a market that is illegal.

No, a black market refers to any market that is unofficial (like armbrace trading or trading of req 7s, it has no set value except what the seller and buyer agree upon). Black markets are usually illegal in the real world, but do not have to be.

Edit: Agreed with above. tmakinen has my sympathies. Obviously a lot of people don't understand economics and still want to chime in and flame you.

Phaern Majes

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Anywhere but up

The Panserbjorne [ROAR]

R/Mo

27 Mar 2008 at 16:20 - 967

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

No, a black market refers to any market that is unofficial (like armbrace trading or trading of req 7s, it has no set value except what the seller and buyer agree upon). Black markets are usually illegal in the real world, but do not have to be.

Forgive me I just go by dictionary definitions...argue the fine points with them.

black market
–noun
1. the illicit buying and selling of goods in violation of legal price controls, rationing, etc.
2. a place where such activity is carried on.

il·lic·it /ɪˈlɪsɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-lis-it] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. not legally permitted or authorized; unlicensed; unlawful.
2. disapproved of or not permitted for moral or ethical reasons.

Anyways even if you use your definition my point still holds as player trading is very "official".

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

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27 Mar 2008 at 16:24 - 968

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

(hint, I'm a middle aged scientist and one of the leading experts in the world in my particular field of study, so if there's a disparity in the intellectual level of arguments, don't immediately assume that they are working in your favor

).

Forgive my asking, but the situation requires I do so... does your area of expertise tie directly to loot-scaling or anything else relevant to the discussion? You can meet the greatest mind in quantum physics, but odds are he won't tell you how to brew a better beer.

Gli

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

27 Mar 2008 at 16:25 - 969

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

(iv) Most importantly of all its a nerf of fun. As I mentioned some time ago its like opening christmas presents only to find nothing inside. It took away a certain aspect of the game which many enjoyed. I used to enjoy running zones with reduced parties to get more drops. In essence creating my own HM. No point now.

For the umpteenth time, you still get more drops with a reduced party.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

27 Mar 2008 at 16:27 - 970

Even in Economy books 'black market' do not refer to 'unofficial' but to 'out of control'.

Even if you try to consider a grage sale 'black market', you'll get surprised in how many countries have laws and rules even about that.

But, terms aside, you cannot start with comparisons.

You must see the design Anet pretended to make, and their intention never was prices over 100k and having to farm to buy things from others.

Their intention always was most prices under 100k (with the exception of very, very rare items like miniatures) and being a ble to get anything just by playing normally in parties of 2..8 human players.

Gli

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

27 Mar 2008 at 16:28 - 971

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

No, a black market refers to any market that is unofficial (like armbrace trading or trading of req 7s, it has no set value except what the seller and buyer agree upon). Black markets are usually illegal in the real world, but do not have to be.

Edit: Agreed with above. tmakinen has my sympathies. Obviously a lot of people don't understand economics and still want to chime in and flame you.

The legal but unofficial markets you're referring to are usually known as 'grey market'

CHannum

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2007

W/E

27 Mar 2008 at 16:32 - 972

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Forgive my asking, but the situation requires I do so... does your area of expertise tie directly to loot-scaling or anything else relevant to the discussion?

Well, if every account was limited to, say, playing 40 hours per week (but you could buy a second or even third account to get around this and pool all the extra resources to your main account), and everybody had a fixed set of expenses that they had to pay each month by a certain deadline or lose the account (and the extra accounts had their own version of LS such that you didn't have to pay full price to play in additional accounts, just a smaller fee we'll call "Fast Food & Transportation"), and LS didn't just affect gold & common items but everything, then, sure, I can see where trying to argue that LS has a negative effect on the economy according to his claimed expertise might be somewhat arguable. But, since it doesn't work anything like that...

mr_groovy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Netherlands

No Inherent Effect [NiE]

27 Mar 2008 at 16:33 - 973

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Even in Economy books 'black market' do not refer to 'unofficial' but to 'out of control'.

Even if you try to consider a grage sale 'black market', you'll get surprised in how many countries have laws and rules even about that.

But, terms aside, you cannot start with comparisons.

You must see the design Anet pretended to make, and their intention never was prices over 100k and having to farm to buy things from others.

Their intention always was most prices under 100k (with the exception of very, very rare items like miniatures) and being a ble to get anything just by playing normally in parties of 2..8 human players.

hmm mini polar bear, because it's so casual. Hmm obsidian amor + chaos gloves because they are so causal too.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

27 Mar 2008 at 16:41 - 974

As I said, with the exceptions of very, very rare items like miniatures.

Since equipable armors do not drop from monsters, 'rare' in an armor means EXPENSIVE.

We went through that already, and you perfectly know that you do not need all the prestige armors, and to fill the HoM you only need 5 of them, so you can just pick the cheapest ones.

MSecorsky

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

So Cal

The Sinister Vanguard

Me/

27 Mar 2008 at 16:41 - 975

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

hmm mini polar bear, because it's so casual. Hmm obsidian amor + chaos gloves because they are so causal too.

Did you deliberately miss the point or was it a reflexive action?

GW was never intended to be an economically driven game. Everything rolls back to the initial skill>time premise things were developed on. Why do you think you can't trade more than 100K gold at a time? It's by design and intent, not oversight. Why do you think as the game has progressed changes have been made which result in decreased prices for most items? Again, by design. The addition of ultra-rare high-end items was to appease the few that went well beyond the scope of the game, but the intent remains.

reetkever

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/E

27 Mar 2008 at 16:57 - 976

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

I am hardly getting anything special in my drops. I'm not luckier, I'm not richer

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

I can already buy a set of elite armor every few weeks just playing the game, I hardly see why it should get any easier if it's to have any sense of accomplishment at all.

Uhu...

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

Hell, I think *everything* should be scaled, no exemptions whatsoever - it should never matter if you play solo or in a party of eight, period.

Believe me, I've been there during the time where everything was scaled. A massive rise of prices was created and A-Net was FORCED to un-nerf most drops in order to keep at least SOME things low in price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

It's an outlook on gaming that is based in laziness and greed, nothing more.

The removal of the Loot Scaling has nothing to do with greed and laziness. Instead, it encourages players to work towards their goals. You seem to think that farming without LS is really profitable. It isn't. Almost any Hardcore farm spot still earns WAY more money than a Troll run, for example. Even without LS, it would still take an average player a few months before he can buy FoW armour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

It's ironic that probably most of the "remove LS" yahoos are the same people who think UB needs nerfed/removed. I'd much rather see UB in the game from now until they unplug the last server than removing LS.

So, first you say that LS should stay because it is lazy, and then you say you'd rather have Ursan, even though they make 10x as much money, 10x faster and 10x easier?

cebalrai

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2007

Mature Gaming Association

Me/E

27 Mar 2008 at 17:01 - 977

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

Black market refers to a market that is illegal. Since Anet put a "TRADE" button and window in the game I fail to see how trading is illegal therefore black market.

As for your point, no money may be generated but on a personal level it allows a player to gain a better profit if they trade their items with others. Who cares where the gold originated from, its in my pocket now. A player that takes a req 9 crystalline sword and sells it to the merchant for 300g doesn't make the 100k + however many ectos that the player, who has the exact same sword, makes from trading it to another player. Sure no money is "created" but that player is definitely richer than the other guy.

What about this definition? (from dictionary.com, one of the seven)

Black Market

A type of economic activity that takes place outside of government-sanctioned channels.

CHannum

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2007

W/E

27 Mar 2008 at 17:01 - 978

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Did you deliberately miss the point or was it a reflexive action?

I figure it's neither, he probably meant it as a serious reply. I've come to the conclusion that people like Mr. G honestly believe that every single thing within the game should be achievable by every single player of the game with, if not no effort, certainly much less than *some* items require. It seems to chafe at them that there are a select few goals and items that no reasonable level of play will put in your reach.

In this, I'll admit that GW is very different than most games. Your average game is a lot more like the discoveries for the BMP: a couple of weeks, maybe a couple of months and, blam, every single thing within the game unlocked. You might play a bit longer until you're tired of it, then move on. GW, OTOH, in spite of eschewing traditional MMO mechanics for so much of the game, wholeheartedly embraces the notion that there are simply some goals and items that will only be accessible after an arguably ridiculous amount of grind (e.g. incorrigble ale hound & grand master treasure hunter) and some still might not be achievable even then (greased lightning and polar bear minis).

I don't see the problem since the goals are pure vanity and the few that do have game effects (e.g. treasure hunter) are useful to the player maxed out or not. They're there for those who want to work for them, those that don't shouldn't care. Yet, for whatever reason, they do have a problem, and they're down right vocal about it.

CHannum

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2007

W/E

27 Mar 2008 at 17:07 - 979

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

So, first you say that LS should stay because it is lazy, and then you say you'd rather have Ursan, even though they make 10x as much money, 10x faster and 10x easier?

Wow, once more you prove the point that you just can't type without resorting to some sort of made up version of the game that doesn't exist.

You make less money per kill with UB than any form of farming since, ta-da, all the drops will be split eight ways, basic, simple math. Or is there some magic area of the game that drops eight times as much stuff if a full party of Ursanway players enter the instance versus anyone else I don't know about?

Besides, I find nothing wrong with UB at all. It requires a full party of humans to do, that in and of itself is all the nerf it will ever need.

mr_groovy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Netherlands

No Inherent Effect [NiE]

27 Mar 2008 at 17:09 - 980

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

I figure it's neither, he probably meant it as a serious reply. I've come to the conclusion that people like Mr. G honestly believe that every single thing within the game should be achievable by every single player of the game with, if not no effort, certainly much less than *some* items require. It seems to chafe at them that there are a select few goals and items that no reasonable level of play will put in your reach.
.

You got me all figered out

Pls hand me that polar bear on a silver platter

.

>.>

I started this topic because LS takes out a lot of fun out of the game + replayability.
Fun in my book is buying things I want in the game with some certain degree of effort. In the pre LS days this was true. Nowadays it's not.
Fun in my book is also kill stuff, get stuff. Not kill stuff, and hope for stuff to drop >.>
As said before LS made a lot of stuff cheaper in the game, and that's true for all the rare skins, and items. But when it comes to the stuff that he average joe wants, and sees walking in Outposts, that my friend is still at a fixed price.

Gli

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

27 Mar 2008 at 17:10 - 981

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

The removal of the Loot Scaling has nothing to do with greed and laziness. Instead, it encourages players to work towards their goals.

Pre-lootscaling, you got x gold for playing in a full party, and rougly 8x gold for soloing.

Post-loostscaling you still get x gold for playing in a full party, and roughly 2x gold for soloing.

These are rough numbers, and don't account for exempted drops, so they're slanted to make lootscaling look worse than it actually is, but let's go with these numbers anyway.

You're saying, you don't think getting 2x instead of x is enough incentive to farm. Twice the money doesn't encourage you? Why's that? Because you used to get 8x once and you can't be arsed to make an effort for a measly 2x? You're spoiled, that's what you are.

reetkever

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/E

27 Mar 2008 at 17:12 - 982

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

Wow, once more you prove the point that you just can't type without resorting to some sort of made up version of the game that doesn't exist.

You make less money per kill with UB than any form of farming since, ta-da, all the drops will be split eight ways, basic, simple math. Or is there some magic area of the game that drops eight times as much stuff if a full party of Ursanway players enter the instance versus anyone else I don't know about?

Besides, I find nothing wrong with UB at all. It requires a full party of humans to do, that in and of itself is all the nerf it will ever need.

You make less money per kill, but with the rare drops, gems and the speed in which monsters are killed, more money is made (I'm talking about Ursan-ing DoA, btw). Also, since there will be the Anti-Farm Code without LS, monsters will decrease their drops after a few runs while in a party of 1, while DoA will keep dropping valueable items for everyone at a much faster rate.

Yang Whirlwind

~ Retired ~

Join Date: Nov 2005

Copenhagen, Denmark (GMT +1)

E/

27 Mar 2008 at 17:18 - 983

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Did you deliberately miss the point or was it a reflexive action?

I know Groovy - it was on purpose! He's an ooligan!

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

What about this definition? (from dictionary.com, one of the seven)

Black Market

A type of economic activity that takes place outside of government-sanctioned channels.

Quote:

black market
n.
1. The illegal business of buying or selling goods or currency in violation of restrictions such as price controls or rationing.
2. A place where these illegal operations are carried on.
black-market (blkmärkt) adj.
black-market·er, black-market·eer (-märk-tîr) n.
black-market·eering n.

Noun 1. black market - people who engage in illicit trade
market - the customers for a particular product or service; "before they publish any book they try to determine the size of the market for it"
black marketeer - someone who engages illegally in trade in scarce or controlled commodities
2. black market - an illegal market in which goods or currencies are bought and sold in violation of rationing or controls
market, marketplace, market place - the world of commercial activity where goods and services are bought and sold; "without competition there would be no market"; "they were driven from the marketplace"
Verb 1. black market - deal in illegally, such as arms or liquor
run
crime, criminal offence, criminal offense, law-breaking, offense, offence - (criminal law) an act punishable by law; usually considered an evil act; "a long record of crimes"
ply, run - travel a route regularly; "Ships ply the waters near the coast"
merchandise, trade - engage in the trade of; "he is merchandising telephone sets"

How about another Black marked = illegal link. Just to make sure we all know what we're talking about!
This is the definition of the word - live with it! Don't make up your own and expect us to buy it!

Default Name

Academy Page

Join Date: Sep 2007

Pigs Go [Oink]

W/R

27 Mar 2008 at 17:18 - 984

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

-huh?-

So what seems to be the problem since the stuff are being split eight ways?

As opposed to one person getting eight times?

WTF?

tmakinen

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

www.mybearfriend.net

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

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27 Mar 2008 at 17:22 - 985

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Forgive my asking, but the situation requires I do so... does your area of expertise tie directly to loot-scaling or anything else relevant to the discussion? You can meet the greatest mind in quantum physics, but odds are he won't tell you how to brew a better beer.

Here are some things I've done in the past:

Makinen et al. Nature 405, 321, 2000
Makinen et al. Science 292, 1326, 2001
Fulchignoni et al. Nature 438, 785, 2005

My background is indeed in theoretical physics but although Quantum Mechanics is very instructive I haven't touched it since uni. My specialty is mathematical modelling of systems, physical and otherwise, and that requires a pretty specific way to see things.

pumpkin pie

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

behind you

bumble bee

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27 Mar 2008 at 17:41 - 986

At first I was sitting on the fence enjoying the scenary untill, that fated day when my necormancer finally found a good H/H build (smiting monkie, Thalkora and Dunkoro and Souske with ele warders) to clear out Shards of Orr, to my disappointment, he, my necromancers average, has gotten, 1 of those so called, white yucky none-moded weapons which sells to merchant for around 50-90gold after identify per every 3 groups of wizards + necromancers + brutes, in hard mode .... .... please do something about the loot scale, do you know, for a casual player who farms when they needed gold to buy stuffs, drops like that would make them move to play some other mmorpg, which I have .... as you can see, I was an avid Guild Wars Fan, vowed never to play other mmorpg, but, its just too disappointing sometime when you invest so much of your precious time doing something just to get yucky drops... and seeing other players achieving titles with the help of third party programs (texmod on cartography) its just very sucky.

I sincerly hope loot scale will be return to its former form. Do not punish your regular players because you are unable to control those tiny amount (compare to the majority who are real players) of gold farmer and bots. As a game providing merchant, it is up to you to control the botting community and give real players enjoyable moments when they log on to the servers. How else are you going to keep us loyal to your game if its not fun to play?

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

27 Mar 2008 at 17:47 - 987

How come? If you are talking about a H/H build, lootscale does not affect you.
Even before lootscaling you got less stuff while going with henchmen.

Anyways, it's the same. A bot doing it or a player behaving like a bot. More or less, it should not be allowed for anyone. The more reasons th people try to give against LS, the more sure I am about removing it being a mistake.
If you llok at the drops lootscale affects, they are:

- White..purple weapons.
- White..purple salvageable items (armors)
- Trophies.
- Crafting materials.

The rest are all out of lootscaling. From tomes to special event items. All of them.
Most Trophies are still easy to get (although they should increase the drops rates of some New Year ingredients, that was horrible) and it's better to have them reduced, since before LS getting 5 of any of them was so easy that crafters where a bad joke.

For white..purple weapons, most of them are merhant fodder, with the exceptions of some, and most of thir upgrades are never used.
And for the rest, as you can see in Traders, there is no problems with suply in runes or materials.

CHannum

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2007

W/E

27 Mar 2008 at 18:18 - 988

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

I started this topic because LS takes out a lot of fun out of the game + replayability.
Fun in my book is buying things I want in the game with some certain degree of effort. In the pre LS days this was true. Nowadays it's not.

At the risk of taking you seriously, I'll just suggest something: It's not a factor of limited replayability and it's not LS that killed the fun, it's that the game is played out for you.

I started last fall. I haven't come close to getting tired of basic gameplay yet. Since I've got ten characters and play all of them, I've only "finished" Prophecies with three, Factions with four, Nightfall with one, and EOTN with one. Even though by the standards of all the "already beat everything sixteen times" crowd that dominates this board, this is nothing, this is still something around 500 hours of entertainment for me. That puts the real world cost per hour of entertainment at less than $0.30/hour, that's cheaper than anything other than a paperback novel. Further, it's a safe bet that I'll get another 500 hours of entertainment before all the characters are even sort of done, there's just so much to do in the game outside of obsessing about weapon and armor skins.

Because I'm relatively new to the game, being only half way done with the basic game play due to my altitis in games like this, I make plenty of money without feeling like I'm working for it. By the time I do reach the sort of done point, all the skills will be unlocked, everybody will have at least one suit of elite armor, most toons will have at least KOABD, and I'll probably have even found or purchased a couple of neat item skins here and there. I will have "achieved" all that just by playing the game at a real world cost of less than $0.15/hour and gotten a year or more of entertainment in the real world. Just how much more replayability is needed?

I'll take you at your word that the game isn't fun for you to just try and work towards cosmetic goals, but I would suggest that LS was just an acceleration of the tipping point for the transition between fun and work and that you'd have reached that point already anyhow. I would argue you are laying blame where none is to be found. As a guy who's playing the game, I don't even desire the 2-3X income I could make farming without much effort under LS, since, as I've reiterated time and time again, I make plenty doing what I'm doing. OTOH, having played complex games for longer than I figure most board members have been alive, I know full well that the greatest game in the world eventually plays itself out and you just stop playing it or you come to hate it for all manner of imagined flaws.

Angelic Upstart

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

South Coast UK

[SBS] [RETIRED]

W/E

27 Mar 2008 at 18:21 - 989

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

I never had pre-LS position since I started long after LS was in effect.

Then you are really not qualified to compare the two... seriously

mr_groovy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2006

Netherlands

No Inherent Effect [NiE]

27 Mar 2008 at 18:27 - 990

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

At the risk of taking you seriously, I'll just suggest something: It's not a factor of limited replayability and it's not LS that killed the fun, it's that the game is played out for you.

I started last fall. Wall of bla bla bla

As a guy who's playing the game, bla bla bla.

1) You don't even know what the the pre-LS era was like. If you did, you weren't talking like this now.
2) If I'm not in to the game anymore, I wouldn't be complaining about it. I would say: "Screw you guys, I'm going home".
3) Stop "trying" to convince how people should play gw.

Sir Pandra Pierva

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Sardelec yelling at Tenshi

Angels Of Strife

E/

27 Mar 2008 at 18:37 - 991

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

I started last fall.
wall of rambling text

i know a couple of reasons why LS was introduced. HM could you picture HM farming without LS

.

but also to control the bots but it didn't do crap iff you ask me. so it needs to be removed from the game. or make it so that heros dont steal drops. Since you have to pay for their sorry asses.

also dont talk as if you know about LS unless you were around before it.

CHannum

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2007

W/E

27 Mar 2008 at 18:59 - 992

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

1) You don't even know what the the pre-LS era was like. If you did, you weren't talking like this now.

So not having played pre-LS makes someone unqualified to comment even though it is a common game mechanic throughout these sorts of games? Sorry to burst people's bubbles, but games aren't rocket science, and what works in them, particularly what works well, is rarely original since if it was a good idea somebody has most likely implemented it previously.

Scaling, be it of loot, experience, or even the number of foes appearing is a common mechanism to almost all electronic games based on a variable number of players collecting goods. It is so ubiquitous precisely because it is so necessary to eliminate the notion that games are meant to be exploited rather than simply played. Any time you have some sort of player interaction surrounding loot, score, or merely level, any game dev worth their salt will come up with a system to ameliorate the effect from exploits on the metagame. It's not some conspiracy out to rob you of your fun.

The only people unqualified to comment are the people who don't even understand what it is or what it does. Otherwise, my opinion is at least as valid. I would argue more so since it's not based in this subjective nonsense about how it felt playing the game pre-LS versus now. In fact, since I am playing now and I do know exactly what LS is, I serve as the counter voice to the played out game geezers who want to blame the introduction of one of the mildest forms of LS ever in a game like this as what killed their fun.

Finally, based on what we do know about GW2, you all might as well accept that it will be even worse in GW2 than it is now. By all appearances they're going to implement something akin to Diablo 2 where number, strength and loot drops of mobs was scaled to the number of players active in a zone such that, in general, it didn't matter whether you went solo or went with a full team. The weak point of GW1 is that mob populations and their loot tables are inherently based on an assumed fixed party size. When they make it so that the fixed party size goes the way of the dinosaur and everything is scaled relative to number of players, you'll have LS across the board 24/7 no matter what you do. You guys are going to have a stroke

CHannum

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2007

W/E

27 Mar 2008 at 19:00 - 993

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pandra Pierva

also dont talk as if you know about LS unless you were around before it.

That's the viewpoint of someone who thinks Anet/GW invented the notion instead of simply implementing something they'd done a decade ago when they were working at Blizzard. The same sort of LS that exists in GW now is the same sort that was in Diablo. And although Diablo is the first time I became aware of the notion, it's probably even older than that. We have the LS we do because they tried to do something new with the anti-farm code and decided that it didn't work out nearly as well as just doling out rewards based on team size. Simple works better.

reetkever

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/E

27 Mar 2008 at 19:10 - 994

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

That's the viewpoint of someone who thinks Anet/GW invented the notion instead of simply implementing something they'd done a decade ago when they were working at Blizzard. The same sort of LS that exists in GW now is the same sort that was in Diablo. And although Diablo is the first time I became aware of the notion, it's probably even older than that. We have the LS we do because they tried to do something new with the anti-farm code and decided that it didn't work out nearly as well as just doling out rewards based on team size. Simple works better.

That still doesn't cover up the fact that LS doesn't help the game but only makes it worse.

If every game has a function, it doesn't mean it's always good. Maybe these games couldn't do without LS. Guild Wars CAN do without it, as the days before LS were better for everyone than now.

Sypherious

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2007

It's Over Nine Thousaaaaand

Mo/E

27 Mar 2008 at 19:13 - 995

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

How come? If you are talking about a H/H build, lootscale does not affect you.
Even before lootscaling you got less stuff while going with henchmen.

Anyways, it's the same. A bot doing it or a player behaving like a bot. More or less, it should not be allowed for anyone. The more reasons th people try to give against LS, the more sure I am about removing it being a mistake.
If you llok at the drops lootscale affects, they are:

- White..purple weapons.
- White..purple salvageable items (armors)
- Trophies.
- Crafting materials.

The rest are all out of lootscaling. From tomes to special event items. All of them.
Most Trophies are still easy to get (although they should increase the drops rates of some New Year ingredients, that was horrible) and it's better to have them reduced, since before LS getting 5 of any of them was so easy that crafters where a bad joke.

For white..purple weapons, most of them are merhant fodder, with the exceptions of some, and most of thir upgrades are never used.
And for the rest, as you can see in Traders, there is no problems with suply in runes or materials.

From the official update:

Adjusted the following items so that they are now exempt from loot scaling:

* Skill Tomes
* Scrolls
* Dye
* Rare materials, such as Ectoplasm
* Gemstones from the Domain of Anguish
* All other rare (gold) items
* All unique (green) items
* Special event items

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

27 Mar 2008 at 19:17 - 996

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sypherious

From the official update:

Adjusted the following items so that they are now exempt from loot scaling:

* Skill Tomes
* Scrolls
* Dye
* Rare materials, such as Ectoplasm
* Gemstones from the Domain of Anguish
* All other rare (gold) items
* All unique (green) items
* Special event items

I though, you didn't read.

Those are OUT of lootscaling. I was talking about those affected by lootscale: whites-blues, trophies and crafting materials. Everything else is what you have posted.

Sypherious

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2007

It's Over Nine Thousaaaaand

Mo/E

27 Mar 2008 at 19:18 - 997

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

I though, you didn't read.

Those are OUT of lootscaling. I was talking about those affected by lootscale: whites-blues, trophies and crafting materials. Everything else is what you have posted.

Which is exactly why I posted it, so people know.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

27 Mar 2008 at 19:20 - 998

There are no more types of items dropping from monsters. The rest are equipable armors and miniatures, that do not drop from monsters.

Eldin

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

America. How about you, commie?

Fellows of Mythgar [FOM]

R/Mo

27 Mar 2008 at 19:21 - 999

I see someone put up a vote - as you can see, LS removal is winning.

Also on topic, I bet everyone who says LS doesn't need to be removed is...
1) Some newbie who doesn't know how epic the pre-LS days were.
2) A goldbuyer who's too rich to care.
3) Some evil 55 monk bot master who's too rich to care.

If you are not from the old days, stop whining about how LS is awesome. It's NOT. To you it may be, but FYI things were a LOT awesomer back before LS. You never experienced it, you have no say in it, LS is of concern to people who were there before it - sure it's nothing to you new people, so this is not your affair. So if you're some 2007 player here to whine about how we're all nubkaekz who want LS removed so we can get rich by doing nothing, please hit Alt+F4 right now.

Sypherious

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2007

It's Over Nine Thousaaaaand

Mo/E

27 Mar 2008 at 19:24 - 1000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldin

I see someone put up a vote - as you can see, LS removal is winning.

Also on topic, I bet everyone who says LS doesn't need to be removed is...
1) Some newbie who doesn't know how epic the pre-LS days were.
2) A goldbuyer who's too rich to care.
3) Some evil 55 monk bot master who's too rich to care.

If you are not from the old days, stop whining about how LS is awesome. It's NOT. To you it may be, but FYI things were a LOT awesomer back before LS. You never experienced it, you have no say in it, LS is of concern to people who were there before it - sure it's nothing to you new people, so this is not your affair. So if you're some 2007 player here to whine about how we're all nubkaekz who want LS removed so we can get rich by doing nothing, please hit Alt+F4 right now.

I love you. And I agree with you 100%.