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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
-whatever-
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Should Lootscaling be removed after the new Rtm policy?
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Cab Tastic
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Originally Posted by CHannum
My reason has been repeated again and again and is clearly lost on you: you absolutely, positively, without a doubt do not need more money than just playing the game will net you, full stop. You don't need to farm, you don't need to grind, you just need to actually play the game and get over your insistence that it actually matters if your weapon is collector "junk" or a fabled req 7 elemental sword with perfect mods. Since you don't need any more money than this, anything that alters the amount of free and excess gold serves to devalue the same sorts of epeen bling you're so obsessed with, that or puts Anet in the place of raising the fixed prices to counteract the increase in gold flow. I can already buy a set of elite armor every few weeks just playing the game, I hardly see why it should get any easier if it's to have any sense of accomplishment at all.
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We don't need rare weapons. Everyone gets a sword and makes do
We don't need different armour. Everyone get given a set on entering game
We don't need skills. who uses more than eight anyway.
We don't need............
My point is if you take a players ambition out of the game, there isn't much of a game left.
Phaern Majes
I said yes, but my God knows how hard it was not to choose "Cake is ****ing delicious." Oh man...
EDIT: spelling/grammer :S
EDIT: spelling/grammer :S
vdz
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Originally Posted by creelie
That's just not true. You have selective memory. All the vigor runes were WAY more expensive way back when. I distinctly remember paying 40k for a superior vigor rune.
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Gli
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Originally Posted by Cab Tastic
My point is if you take a players ambition out of the game, there isn't much of a game left.
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Default Name
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Originally Posted by Gli
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I suggest adding in the [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags, unless of course I interpreted your post wrong.
Gli
I wasn't being sarcastic.
CHannum
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Originally Posted by manitoba1073
Its even more funnier when people like you claimed the exact opposite before LS was implemented. Now you're here trying to tell people all they need is the necesseties, which even yourself have admitted has changed at all. So then what was the big problem before. Oh thats right. People claimed things that were vanity were to expensive for them to afford.
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If you can survive the raptor nest in hard mode by yourself, yippee, here's a imaginary cookie, there's no reason you should get more stuff. Your ability to exploit specific regions of the game is not grounds to exploit the economy. If I ever find myself tempted to join a PUG, I think I'll just ask any prospective teammates if they think LS should be removed. Yes? See you. It's an outlook on gaming that is based in laziness and greed, nothing more. It's ironic that probably most of the "remove LS" yahoos are the same people who think UB needs nerfed/removed. I'd much rather see UB in the game from now until they unplug the last server than removing LS.
tmakinen
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Originally Posted by CHannum
If you can survive the raptor nest in hard mode by yourself, yippee, here's a imaginary cookie, there's no reason you should get more stuff.
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If you answer 'yes' you are a proponent of the communist economic model, and we all know how well that worked (the only reasonably prosperous communist nation, China, was smart enough to dump the economic model and only kept the political part).
mr_groovy
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Originally Posted by Cab Tastic
We don't need gold either. just give everything to everyone.
We don't need rare weapons. Everyone gets a sword and makes do We don't need different armour. Everyone get given a set on entering game We don't need skills. who uses more than eight anyway. We don't need............ My point is if you take a players ambition out of the game, there isn't much of a game left. |
It just makes you get money in a 8/8 team and 1/8 team somewhat faster. It's not insta caching. Did you even play before LS was implemented? Do you honestly think that everybody before LS had stacks of ecto's?
Gw pre LS days was fun to make a bit of money either through playing or farming. Then spend it on armor, or other things.
Nowadays you hope to get THE perfect drop , and spend time trying to get noticed in party search to sell it.(Or a couple of days on guru). For me personally it makes the game less & less fun to play. And if LS doesn't have to be in the game, get rid of it.
cebalrai
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Originally Posted by Gli
You know, that's an excellent argument in favor of lootscaling. Because there's little that takes ambition out of a game as badly as making things too easy to accomplish.
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Solas
Loot scaling should be removed only in NM
i was raptor fqarming this weekend and i made a nice bit + a good bit of golds.
You only need 8k for skills, 8k for armor and 5k for a green wepon and maybe 7k for runes and insignias. =30k
its not that hard t omake tat over a few days of missions questing.
if it was only in NM, new players would get more money to help them.
not needed at all in HM
went last10 months without it.
/not signed
its a question of Need or greed.
3...2...1.../roll
i was raptor fqarming this weekend and i made a nice bit + a good bit of golds.
You only need 8k for skills, 8k for armor and 5k for a green wepon and maybe 7k for runes and insignias. =30k
its not that hard t omake tat over a few days of missions questing.
if it was only in NM, new players would get more money to help them.
not needed at all in HM
went last10 months without it.
/not signed
its a question of Need or greed.
3...2...1.../roll
Gli
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Fundamental question: if company A needs 8 employees to complete a given task in a week but company B can complete the same task in the same amount of time by assigning just one employee to it, should company A be paid 8 times more than company B, just so that every employee would get the same reward regardless of how effective they are?
If you answer 'yes' you are a proponent of the communist economic model, and we all know how well that worked (the only reasonably prosperous communist nation, China, was smart enough to dump the economic model and only kept the political part). |
cebalrai
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Originally Posted by Cab Tastic
We don't need gold either. just give everything to everyone.
We don't need rare weapons. Everyone gets a sword and makes do We don't need different armour. Everyone get given a set on entering game We don't need skills. who uses more than eight anyway. We don't need............ My point is if you take a players ambition out of the game, there isn't much of a game left. |
Meaningless post.
CHannum
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
If you answer 'yes' you are a proponent of the communist economic model, and we all know how well that worked (the only reasonably prosperous communist nation, China, was smart enough to dump the economic model and only kept the political part).
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Of course, if you are to take your real world comparison to a more logical perspective, it's not a communist versus capitalist argument, but whether or not government regulation is a necessary evil to counteract the unmitigated greed of the asshats in the world. Just because you can make more money firing 7 of your employees and making the one guy do all the work for only moderately increased pay (you still make about double soloing under LS versus a full party) doesn't make it a good idea that should be rewarded.
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Originally Posted by Cab Tastic
We don't need gold either. just give everything to everyone.
We don't need rare weapons. Everyone gets a sword and makes do We don't need different armour. Everyone get given a set on entering game We don't need skills. who uses more than eight anyway. We don't need............ My point is if you take a players ambition out of the game, there isn't much of a game left. |
That's what I really don't get. People keep going about how it's more fun, but, really, it's just easier. I think the real answer is that the people who are the most vocal about getting LS removed just don't much enjoy the game any more, and from Anet's p.o.v. that's probably a good thing. You got your ride on the ferris wheel, time to get off and let someone else have a turn.
mr_groovy
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Originally Posted by cebalrai
Gli nailed it with this post. In pre-LS days, things were WAY too easy to accomplish, especially over the course of many months/years that many players play GW.
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Hell yeah it was more easy to make money, and was also easier to spend because people had enough of it. Was it way to easy to make? No.
I made money pre - ls, and it took my quit sometime to get my 15K + Obsidian armors. Was it way easy? Heck no.
In my pre-Ls days I did my fair share of gaming, and farming. I was farming for rare skins or rare materials. But unlike nowadays I actually made a bit of money doing so, by merching. These days you hope to get a rare skin (what sells already for almost nothing) and merch for 400gp?
As said before it's not about farmers making more money, it's about the whole community having more money to spend. Yes every "player" sold item is cheaper, but armors + skills are still fixed. And these are still the items the average joe in gw strife for.
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Originally Posted by CHannum
That's what I really don't get. People keep going about how it's more fun, but, really, it's just easier. I think the real answer is that the people who are the most vocal about getting LS removed just don't much enjoy the game any more, and from Anet's p.o.v. that's probably a good thing. You got your ride on the ferris wheel, time to get off and let someone else have a turn.
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NOT.
tmakinen
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Originally Posted by Gli
China, however, isn't a computer game.
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If there is no greater reward for greater efficiency, there's no incentive to be more efficient. In fact there's an incentive for the exact opposite, and that's why the communist block failed. Not because they were less talented, not because they one day realized 'Zomg! This communist stuff is so ideologically retarded!' It was because their economy crumbled beneath their feet. And that happened because greater effort didn't bring greater rewards.
Gli
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
And cake is still an amazingly delicious option, as far as non sequiturs go.
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
If there is no greater reward for greater efficiency, there's no incentive to be more efficient.
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
In fact there's an incentive for the exact opposite, and that's why the communist block failed.
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Not because they were less talented, not because they one day realized 'Zomg! This communist stuff is so ideologically retarded!' It was because their economy crumbled beneath their feet. And that happened because greater effort didn't bring greater rewards.
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CHannum
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
Wow I hope either Gaile or Andrew picks up on your posts. I think you are on to something. This will boost GW2 sales a lot.
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Games without a sub fee don't have a financial interest in holding your interest indefinitely. Heck, most of the games money is in the console market for which 90% of the games are meant to be flat out done, if you're lucky, after 20-40 hours, and these games cost upwards of $70 a pop! The value intrinsic in the GW series is far beyond anything I've ever encountered in my three decades gaming. Anyone so jaded that they wouldn't buy more GW content based on GW1 "only" giving them a few years of entertainment in a context where the average relationship is a few weeks to a few months for the exact same money is not worth the effort.
tmakinen
Since my arguments seem to confuse people, let's take the intellectual level down a notch or two.
Capitalism and communism are both rooted in the very human condition called 'envy'. In a capitalist system, when somebody is richer than you and you feel envious, you are given the opportunity to gain the difference through your own work and become as rich. In a communist system, when somebody is richer than you and you feel envious, you make it illegal to earn more than you happen to earn and everybody becomes equally poor. Now which of these two descriptions more closely resembles loot scaling?
Capitalism and communism are both rooted in the very human condition called 'envy'. In a capitalist system, when somebody is richer than you and you feel envious, you are given the opportunity to gain the difference through your own work and become as rich. In a communist system, when somebody is richer than you and you feel envious, you make it illegal to earn more than you happen to earn and everybody becomes equally poor. Now which of these two descriptions more closely resembles loot scaling?
MithranArkanere
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Since my arguments seem to confuse people, let's take the intellectual level down a notch or two.
Capitalism and communism are both rooted in the very human condition called 'envy'. In a capitalist system, when somebody is richer than you and you feel envious, you are given the opportunity to gain the difference through your own work and become as rich. In a communist system, when somebody is richer than you and you feel envious, you make it illegal to earn more than you happen to earn and everybody becomes equally poor. Now which of these two descriptions more closely resembles loot scaling? |
With loot scaling, if you want more cash, you have to pick your rare drops and sell them to other players, not the merchant. That is 'your own effort'.
Before Lootscaling, if you farmed for a long time, the anti-farm code will appear, thus halting your farming. And since more various drops appeared, you had much less drops to sell to other players, and a lot of merchant crap.
With loot scalling, rare drops are out of it, and it's rare drops what sell better to both traders and players.
CHannum
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Now which of these two descriptions more closely resembles loot scaling?
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Regulated markets have been an intrinsic part of keeping capitalist systems from becoming as corrupt and poisonous as communist ones for as long as we've practiced business in the world. That's all LS is: you can get as rich as you want, you just can't get there eight times faster by finding a "tax loophole" in the system, but you can get still there about twice as fast (this is ignoring, of course, the eight as times as many rares, tomes, dyes, etc. that you'll get at the same time making your actual take much better).
Gli
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Since my arguments seem to confuse people, let's take the intellectual level down a notch or two.
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Capitalism and communism are both rooted in the very human condition called 'envy'. In a capitalist system, when somebody is richer than you and you feel envious, you are given the opportunity to gain the difference through your own work and become as rich. In a communist system, when somebody is richer than you and you feel envious, you make it illegal to earn more than you happen to earn and everybody becomes equally poor. Now which of these two descriptions more closely resembles loot scaling?
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MithranArkanere
The topic started from the false statement that lootscaling was added to counter bots.
That was not 'the' reson, it was 'a' reason. Even if you remove bots, the rest of the reasons are still there.
That was not 'the' reson, it was 'a' reason. Even if you remove bots, the rest of the reasons are still there.
mr_groovy
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
The topic started from the false statement that lootscaling was added to counter bots.
That was not 'the' reson, it was 'a' reason. Even if you remove bots, the rest of the reasons are still there. |
MithranArkanere
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gaile_News/20070420
If you read that, it was not a side effect, was one of the main reasons.
If you read that, it was not a side effect, was one of the main reasons.
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[...] A major theme of our most recent update is that the game should be friendlier and more rewarding for casual players, including casual solo farmers, and that the most advanced farmers should differentiate themselves from the crowd not through the amount of gold and common loot that they farm directly from monsters, but instead through the amount of gold that they can get from selling rare items to other players (directly or through traders). That's a very important distinction. Advanced farmers are always going to earn more money than their more casual counterparts. There's nothing wrong with that. When farmers earn their money by finding valuable items and selling them to other players, they're making the game more enjoyable for everyone. They're facilitating trade, and the gold they acquire from doing so is gold that was already in the game. It's only when solo farming introduces a huge influx of new gold into the economy that it becomes a problem. [...] |
mr_groovy
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gaile_News/20070420
If you read that, it was not a side effect, was one of the main reasons. |
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A major theme of our most recent update is that the game should be friendlier and more rewarding for casual players, including casual solo farmers, and that the most advanced farmers should differentiate themselves from the crowd not through the amount of gold and common loot that they farm directly from monsters, but instead through the amount of gold that they can get from selling rare items to other players (directly or through traders). That's a very important distinction. Advanced farmers are always going to earn more money than their more casual counterparts. There's nothing wrong with that. When farmers earn their money by finding valuable items and selling them to other players, they're making the game more enjoyable for everyone. They're facilitating trade, and the gold they acquire from doing so is gold that was already in the game. It's only when solo farming introduces a huge influx of new gold into the economy that it becomes a problem. |
With all the new gold sink titles, and LS there has been a huge money SINK in the game. Thus people having less to spend. This money they want to keep through trading, when it's diminishing?
MithranArkanere
What I mean is that what we need to get cash is not a lot of merchant fodder like it was before lootscaling.
We need the Xunlai Market, to sell stuff to others easily.
The very heart of the real market in an online game is selling to others.
Even in Diablo II there was a limiation on how much gold you could get from selling to NPCs, limitation that banished by selling to other players.
Common sense.
We need the Xunlai Market, to sell stuff to others easily.
The very heart of the real market in an online game is selling to others.
Even in Diablo II there was a limiation on how much gold you could get from selling to NPCs, limitation that banished by selling to other players.
Common sense.
tmakinen
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
If you put it that way, it's capitalism, then.
Before Lootscaling, if you farmed for a long time, the anti-farm code will appear, thus halting your farming. |
Since others seem to be even less familiar with basic economical concepts I won't elaborate any further before the level of discussion actually drops below zero (hint, I'm a middle aged scientist and one of the leading experts in the world in my particular field of study, so if there's a disparity in the intellectual level of arguments, don't immediately assume that they are working in your favor
).
mr_groovy
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
What I mean is that what we need to get cash is not a lot of merchant fodder like it was before lootscaling.
We need the Xunlai Market, to sell stuff to others easily. The very heart of the real market in an online game is selling to others. Even in Diablo II there was a limiation on how much gold you could get from selling to NPCs, limitation that banished by selling to other players. Common sense. |
1 year after introduction of LS, and what better means of trade are there? A limited char party search. >.>
If I find a descent req 9 any weapon skin, it's gonna sell for what? 5-1k? I'm not even talking about everything above req 9.
In the start of LS it worked as it supposed to. You get nice drops in HM, and you can sell those, thus creating money.
Nowadays? Apart from end chest drops from dugeons or ambraces what still sells? About nothing. Vending an item for a hour for 1-3k you could have made "playing the game normally".
CHannum
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
We need the Xunlai Market, to sell stuff to others easily.
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Right now, player to player prices are controlled by a lot of factors, but a chief one is the hassle factor. There aren't that many people buying or selling any particular item or mod at any given time because of the inherent hassle in doing so, so the vast majority of potentially saleable items winds up merch'd or salvaged. If there was an easily accessed means of selling items to other players, just how much more of a drop in prices would we see? Most runes and materials are so common place due to easy (but indirect) player to player sales that if not for the basement value assigned to them by Anet they would have no value at all. The casual player would have a field day because he could find a perfect fortitude or vampiric mod on demand at a fair price, but the power traders would bust a vein at how much the prices on all but the rarest of rare shinies would "plummet" to in short order.
I can almost bet the proverbial farm that two months after the implementation of the Xunlai Marketplace that these forums would be as polluted with threads about how the XM killed the GW economy as it is already with bitching about LS and UB.
Cab Tastic
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gaile_News/20070420
If you read that, it was not a side effect, was one of the main reasons. |
Phaern Majes
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Originally Posted by CHannum
I can almost bet the proverbial farm that two months after the implementation of the Xunlai Marketplace that these forums would be as polluted with threads about how the XM killed the GW economy as it is already with bitching about LS and UB.
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MithranArkanere
Loot scalling is not a hard cap.
Rare drops are out of loot scaling, never forget that.
And trading in GW is NOT the barter black market. Trading with other players is THE WAY to get cash. It is how it was meant to work. Traders are middlemen between players, but they are a system in which players take part.
The only equivalent of Black Market in GW is RMT: riches acquired in 'illegal' ways.
Sometimes really easy concepts are hard to understand due to predisposition to complicate things. You cannot find real equivalents because there are no equivalents.
What LS actually makes is removing the 'need' to farm. No one can farm the way it was possible before, so those that keep farming like before may be probably wasting time if they do not trade with other characters. Since LS works for all, not for some, no one is losing anything. You do not need a way to get more gold to pay for something, since the guy selling other stuff is under LS too.
Gold then has its value increased.
If you remove LS now, you'll get that those willing to farm will get much more money without farming than those that refuse to do so.
Since farming is and never was 'the way' meant to get the money, but an alternate optional thing to do, we end up having that LS will never be removed, no matter how much people agree or not with it.
Yes, I completely and absolutely agree with you. You think. But you do not have server statistics Anet has. So it doesn't matter what you think, when they KNOW.
Rare drops are out of loot scaling, never forget that.
And trading in GW is NOT the barter black market. Trading with other players is THE WAY to get cash. It is how it was meant to work. Traders are middlemen between players, but they are a system in which players take part.
The only equivalent of Black Market in GW is RMT: riches acquired in 'illegal' ways.
Sometimes really easy concepts are hard to understand due to predisposition to complicate things. You cannot find real equivalents because there are no equivalents.
What LS actually makes is removing the 'need' to farm. No one can farm the way it was possible before, so those that keep farming like before may be probably wasting time if they do not trade with other characters. Since LS works for all, not for some, no one is losing anything. You do not need a way to get more gold to pay for something, since the guy selling other stuff is under LS too.
Gold then has its value increased.
If you remove LS now, you'll get that those willing to farm will get much more money without farming than those that refuse to do so.
Since farming is and never was 'the way' meant to get the money, but an alternate optional thing to do, we end up having that LS will never be removed, no matter how much people agree or not with it.
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Originally Posted by Cab Tastic
I think we have already established they didn't have a clue what they wer doing when they implemented loot scaling.
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H R
or if anet wanted to fix the real money trading, why just sell gold from their online store. that way they make money and everyone is happy
cebalrai
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Originally Posted by mr_groovy
We never had a huge influx of gold into the game. Perhaps only from the gold websites.
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So yes, there was a big influx of gold into the game. Bots aside, Anet made the change because solo farmers were making insane amounts of cash in very little time, with very little effort. That was bad for the game.
So stop saying it's all about the bots as if that's some sort of fact. It's only your speculation. Please qualify your statements by noting that they're your opinion. Otherwise you lose your cred.
MithranArkanere
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Originally Posted by H R
or if anet wanted to fix the real money trading, why just sell gold from their online store. that way they make money and everyone is happy
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That would be exactly like allowing other RMT companies. It doens't matter who does it, if many gold is inserted into the game without any ingame effort at all.
cebalrai
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Originally Posted by H R
or if anet wanted to fix the real money trading, why just sell gold from their online store. that way they make money and everyone is happy
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There are about sixty problems with that route. Not going to detail them here though....
tmakinen
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere
Trading with other players is THE WAY to get cash. It is how it was meant to work. Traders are middlemen between players, but they are a system in which players take part.
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Gli
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
You're confusing progressive taxation (antifarming code, capitalist method of economy regulation) with hard cap on regular salary (loot scaling, communist method of economy regulation) and the associated (black market) barter economy.
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Originally Posted by tmakinen
Since others seem to be even less familiar with basic economical concepts I won't elaborate any further before the level of discussion actually drops below zero (hint, I'm a middle aged scientist and one of the leading experts in the world in my particular field of study, so if there's a disparity in the intellectual level of arguments, don't immediately assume that they are working in your favor
). |
