How Would You NERF Ursan?

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Is Special
/signed for Nerfing sabway.

Why are people so angry at other people's use of Ursan? Its fine.
You say "nerf Sabway", but say "Ursan's fine"?
I really don't understand people these days...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfaile
The problem is the nerf crowd imo has a lot of stuff that has decreased in value since UB was introduced, they want everything to be above what the average player can obtain.

So I say lets all whine (and lets be honest, that is what this thread is) to nerf 55s, 600s, VwK, etc. Lets buff raptors, undead, etc. Lets get rid of all solo/dou farmers!!!
Lets make anything that will let one person get what he or she wants or need out of reach. I don't see anything wrong with 55hp, 600hp, VwK and builds specifically used for Farming. They're kept on their side of things.
But Ursan's used for practically everything, now. The majority of the PvE community have been brainwashed by Ursan, and ONLY play Ursan, which means the majority of all guilds aswell, not only PuGs.

If you aren't going to try doing title hunting without all this crap that's just BEYOND broken, just because you want your title as soon as possible with absolute ease there's no point in having the goal.
It's like buying your common game for a normal console, rushing through the storyline by means of cheats and glitches, and thinking "I'm bored now, new game mewant".
At least I assume people will be like that after Ursanwaying their brains out.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by milan
remove the flagging mechanism Where did this come from?
Are you aware Hero Battles is dedicated on splits, where the flagging is practically NEEDED?
And are you also aware H/H don't usually move out of AoE by themselves, even when you run?

The AI of H/H is retarded enough, I believe.

Neverending Silence

Neverending Silence

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2006

USA

Babes N Bastages [BNB]

A/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuilan
Why? Many players don't enjoy PvP. Why would you want them to play something they don't like? Either can be hard and that's how it should be. You're making half the game seem worthless. lol i find that very funny as well....ALOT of ppl enjoy pvp. TA,RA,AB are always FULL of ppl and theres almost always more then 1-2 districts. even at the times when most ppl arent on, they still have a decent amount of ppl whereas pve is like a ghost town excluding the market areas/ fow/ uw. but hey its probly just u that hates pvp

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

You shouldn't really take Ursans from a PuG unless you're running full Ursanway.
They're like Wammos who bring crap like Mending and Healing Breeze on their bar. They think they're invincible.

pfaile

pfaile

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2007

Orlando

Divine Order of Heroes

P/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
You shouldn't really take Ursans from a PuG unless you're running full Ursanway.
They're like Wammos who bring crap like Mending and Healing Breeze on their bar. They think they're invincible. I agree, the mistake on our part was not asking for him to ping his build.

cellardweller

cellardweller

Likes naked dance offs

Join Date: Aug 2005

The Older Gamers [TOG]

The skillbar replacement concept is the problem with all the blessings and needs to be removed
Quote:
Originally Posted by me in some other thread
Ursan Blessing
For 60-80 seconds you assume the avatar of the bear. While in this form, you gain 100hp, and your attacks do an additional 10-15 damage and have a 5-10% chance of knocking down your target. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.
Reason: The +10-15 damage always is somewhat in line with avatar of lyssa's +45 while activating. The +100hp is equivilent to Lyssa's +20e (survivor vs radiant insigs). The knockdown is gravy on the top because people will compliain if their pve skills aren't overpowered.
Avatar Model: Norns bear form

Raven Blessing
For 60-80 seconds you assume the avatar of the raven. While in this form, you are immune to knockdown have a 10-30% block chance, your attacks cause bleeding for 3-5 seconds and have a 10-15% chance of blinding your opponent for 3-5 second and your skills recharge 33% faster.
Reason: This is a Mantra of recovery with slightly lower coverage, but available without any attribute investments. The anti-knockdown and condition causesing are flavour based bonuses that won't cause major imbalances.
Avatar Model: Tengu with black feathers.

Volfen Blessing
For 60-80 seconds you assume the avatar of the wolf. While in this form, you gain +4-6 health regeneration, and you move and attack 33% faster. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.
reason: This is the AoB that would actually be useful in PvE but would break PvP. In PvE having long lasting, unremovable speed and ias buffs is useful without being gamebreaking.
Avatar Model: Wendigo .

Bowstring Badass

Bowstring Badass

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2005

Character selection screen figuring what I want to play...

Purple Lingerie - :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbiter_of_Peril
Sab made vanquishing easier by doing something people have a hard time doing, creating hero builds that synergize with each other. I was laughing so hard. He just jacked hero builds from HA changed 3 skills and BAM...

Anyway I would just lower all of the damage on the skills +45 at max.

yesitsrob

yesitsrob

Elite Guru

Join Date: Sep 2005

Manchester, England

SMS/Victrix

If they haven't nerfed it by now, they aren't going to.

I don't think it's that overpowered, I just think it's the absolute most numbingly simple way to clear an area, I'm pretty convinced you could do it faster with other means - but they would probably take a lot of effort which frankly no one cares for in pve, we all just want to run nightmare weapon monks or something.

Quote:
I was laughing so hard. He just jacked hero builds from HA changed 3 skills and BAM...
Apparently almost every pve'er on guru was unaware of Soul Reaping abuse and were too busy QQing about OMFG ANET NERFED MMS to realise what 90% of tombs players were running at the time - Heroes with infinite energy etc.

Quote:
/signed for nerfing imbagons

/signed for nerfing sabway

/signed for nerfing the tripple paragon team The only thing that makes the triple para team imbalanced is the Save Yourselves Paragon, the other 2 are, well... no more imba than paras happen to be. Sabway is all Soul Reaping and skills heroes happen to be good with, I personally wouldn't care if they killed Soul Reaping but I can imagine the uproar it would cause ... actually nerf it for a laugh.

Akolo

Akolo

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

V??xj??, Sweden

Stop Stealing [agro]

Mo/

people will always defend and play that which is overpowered and makes it easier. ursan is the overpowered skill atm. just because it makes your game easier doesnt mean its "right".
if we dont have balanced pve everyone will run the same build.
could also make the skills adrenaline skills to be ontopic

Fear Me!

Fear Me!

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2005

E/R

After 21 seconds, a max rank ursan using just ursan strike will do 900 armor ignoring damage. Only if the damage from three meteor showers at 16 fire magic were also armor ignoring, then they'd be around the same damage range. To 'balance' the skill, reduce the damage caused, and/or make it susceptible to blind. Also, make the bear avatar have a set al and energy level regardless of profession. If this is too much, then retain the skill as it is, but restrict it to norn only areas.

Rushin Roulette

Rushin Roulette

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Right here

Ende

Id nerf it so that Weapon damage effects dont work (zealous /Vamp/ Sundering and so on), and that the Ursan Strike should be a melee attack instead of a touch skill (although that has already been nerfed from being a ranged attack).

Making UB and enchantment wouldnt be bad either, but that would also mean that the other Elite forms (Derv avatars) would be changed, and I dont see that happening.

To tell the truth, I have seen more UB groups fail utterly at UW or FoW than Balanced. only because of rampaging over agroing Yogibears. A sugested buff (not serious or possible obviously) would be to add 10% more IQ to the list of perks UB offers.

kranius

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2008

France

Me/

How would i nerf ? just delete it, or yes, set up a common mana pool whatever the class/stuff you are using

Div

Div

I like yumy food!

Join Date: Jan 2006

Where I can eat yumy food

Dead Alley [dR]

Mo/R

The thing that's so strong about ursan is that it replaces a bad player's shitty bar with a good one. Even if you nerf the damage/recharge/activation or whatnot, ursan will remain grind>skill.

And that leads to why the idea of having ursan work like a stronger dervish avatar is probably the "best" one. That way, they could also balance the other blessings in relation to this one, so that casters benefit more from say, raven, and physicals benefit more from ursan.

Something like:

Ursan: 60 seconds. 120 disable. +100..200 health, +10..20 armor, +10..20% chance of causing KD.
Raven: 60 seconds. 120 disable. +10..20 energy, +10..20% block rate, spells cast and recharge 10..20% faster.
Volfen: 60 seconds. 120 disable. +50..100 health, +1..5 health regen, +10..20% attack and movement speed, +10..20% critical hit.

Akolo

Akolo

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

V??xj??, Sweden

Stop Stealing [agro]

Mo/

like that idea masamune but its too massive and probably wont happen :/.

i would have nothing against ursan if it wasnt so .. overpowered.

though in this thread we have numerous of GOOD ways to change it so i hope it gets some notice lol.

tmakinen

tmakinen

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

www.mybearfriend.net

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

E/

/signed for holymasamune's suggestion. That would make the blessings actually interesting

Fried Tech

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

[Yeti]

E/

Alright. Looks like things got a little off topic for about a page. But it seems like we are good now.

A Lot of good ideas.
Seems like the popular ones are:

KD only one target
Make skill 1 a melee attack instead of touchy skill
or, Change the entire skill to work more like a derv avatar

Lets keep 'em coming

Richardt

Richardt

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

http://friendsofloa.com/forum

Leader-Legion of Avalon [LoA] Alliance-Recruiting PM for info!

After some thinking, changing the Blessing skills to work like a dervish Avatar presents a small problem.

In all 3 Norn missions you get the blessing as a way to "help" do a certain task (locating the Nornbear, preventing Destroyer tremors from knocking your down, blowing open barriers). But if we change it to a Avatar type form, then we loose this functionality.

So we have two choices if we go with the Avatar idea:

1) Keep the Blessings "as is" for the missions, but the actual skill functions as the Avatar.

2) Rework the missions to make the Avatar idea work there-like for Gate to Far give the Raven an immunity to knockdown, make the barriers able to be attacked while in Bear, and not sure about the Nornbear-maybe whenever you activate a skill it pings his location for a short period or so?

1 would be the easiest to implement, but the purpose of the missions where to allow the player a "taste" of the blessing skills, so it kills that. 2 would require more work, but it would be more true to the actual skills when the player got them.

Fried Tech

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

[Yeti]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splitisoda
Problem is, most of these "imba" skills / builds can be stopped.
SY Para a prob? [skill]Soothing Images[/skill]
And yes, I do see quite alot of mesmer monsters carry this skill.
that skill would do nothing against UB because you don't need adrenaline to use it, or any of its skills.
You might be thinking of an "IMBA"GON. which is a paragon. Ursan is a Pve only skill that is not related to class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardt
After some thinking, changing the Blessing skills to work like a dervish Avatar presents a small problem.

In all 3 Norn missions you get the blessing as a way to "help" do a certain task (locating the Nornbear, preventing Destroyer tremors from knocking your down, blowing open barriers). But if we change it to a Avatar type form, then we loose this functionality. I think another way to work around the mission problem would be to have the avatar (bear, raven, wolf) follow you around for the mission. And just have them put off an "aura", giving all nearby allies the buffs needed to finish the job.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splitisoda
Problem is, most of these "imba" skills / builds can be stopped.
SY Para a prob? [skill]Soothing Images[/skill]
And yes, I do see quite alot of mesmer monsters carry this skill.
Yeah but that's why any good build will include counters to it's weaknesses.
That's why one adds hex/condition removal in such builds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fried Tech
that skill would do nothing against UB because you don't need adrenaline to use it, or any of its skills.
You might be thinking of an "IMBA"GON. which is a paragon. Ursan is a Pve only skill that is not related to class. That's exactly what he said.

Fried Tech

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

[Yeti]

E/

oops. just read through it to quick. I assumed he was talking about UB.... because this is a UB thoughts thread.

TheDolph

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2007

W/

You take on the aspect of the bear. Your maximum energy is set to (5....10) and you have -2 Energy degeneration. You have 60...80 armor and +100...200 maximum Health. All Enchantments upon you are removed. Bear attacks replace your skills. You gain Energy every time you take or deal damage. This Skill ends when your Energy drops to 0.

Would this be an ok nerf?

Fried Tech

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

[Yeti]

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDolph
You take on the aspect of the bear. Your maximum energy is set to (5....10) and you have -2 Energy degeneration. You have 60...80 armor and +100...200 maximum Health. All Enchantments upon you are removed. Bear attacks replace your skills. You gain Energy every time you take or deal damage. This Skill ends when your Energy drops to 0.

Would this be an ok nerf? In my opinion 5-10 energy is a bit extreme.
But this is a brainstorming thread. So, all options are on the table. No ideas are bad.

Fried Tech

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

[Yeti]

E/

Thank you masamune. Beaver said you were hungry when he moved the thread, and I guess he wasn't kidding

Richardt

Richardt

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

http://friendsofloa.com/forum

Leader-Legion of Avalon [LoA] Alliance-Recruiting PM for info!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDolph
You take on the aspect of the bear. Your maximum energy is set to (5....10) and you have -2 Energy degeneration. You have 60...80 armor and +100...200 maximum Health. All Enchantments upon you are removed. Bear attacks replace your skills. You gain Energy every time you take or deal damage. This Skill ends when your Energy drops to 0.

Would this be an ok nerf? IMO changing Ursan's energy management isn't really the way to go. Creative people will find aways to make it last as long as it does.

I believe the core of the Ursan woes is how much damage it puts out.

I do like making the Ursan's user have a set armor based off of Norn rank-however the way it's suggested is a little weak-maybe scale it from 70-100? This would certainly eliminate the "need" for specific classes.

But I'm still gunning for the Avatar change-I think that's the best route.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Nerf Ursan? Simple.

Rape the KD skill.

Kronos Ledaloth

Kronos Ledaloth

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2007

Italy

Spirits From Hell [SH]

E/P

mmm instead of 20 of armor i think 10 armor and instead of -2 ene degen -4 ene degen and -2 life degen

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

why should you kno? Oo

A/W

WTH... U should nerf the most fun PvE(!) skill in game? It cant be used in PvP, it sux balls when not r10, u dont need to use it if u dont whant to (!) nobody will say "OmgOmg UZ URZAN NUB!" to u, never, so why the hell? And besides, if u are a nub, nothing will make u instawin coz nubs cant play in a group properly and their heroes suck and the get instaraped instantly.

BUT A NERF SHOULD BE MADE
NOT ON URSAN THO
but
ON CONSUMABLES!

Concies make Ursan so godly everywere including elite missions and duingeons and If u use a conset even on a nub who doesnt kno how to play or use his heroes then even with no Ursan he will steamroll an Area easyly.

~Super Igor ~

KennyC

KennyC

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2007

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
Easy. The reason Ursan is broken is because it synergizes with itself. It synergizes with itself through the damage mitigation from the knockdowns: the more ursans in the team, the more time the enemies spend on their collective butts, and the less damage the team takes.

Hence, Ursan should be nerfed by making the AoE knockdown into a single-target knockdown.

That's all it takes. Self-synergy gone, Ursanway dead, but Ursan still useful. As Ben Stiller once said... "DO IT"

+1

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Igor
WTH... U should nerf the most fun PvE(!) skill in game? It cant be used in PvP, it sux balls when not r10, u dont need to use it if u dont whant to (!) nobody will say "OmgOmg UZ URZAN NUB!" to u, never, so why the hell? And besides, if u are a nub, nothing will make u instawin coz nubs cant play in a group properly and their heroes suck and the get instaraped instantly.

BUT A NERF SHOULD BE MADE
NOT ON URSAN THO
but
ON CONSUMABLES!

Concies make Ursan so godly everywere including elite missions and duingeons and If u use a conset even on a nub who doesnt kno how to play or use his heroes then even with no Ursan he will steamroll an Area easyly.

~Super Igor ~ Nerf both.
Nerf Imbagon, Ursan.
Maybe weaken weakness to weaken Sabway.

And I don't see how Ursan is fun, buttonmashing is boring, but whatever rocks your boat...
Plus at least 95% of the PvE community use it so it's hard to avoid. (Including Guilds.)
And yeah, it's not usable in PvP, but it's stupidly overpowered anyway, even for PvE.

MasterSasori

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
And I don't see how Ursan is fun, buttonmashing is boring, but whatever rocks your boat... Tell instagib sins this....

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterSasori
Tell instagib sins this.... Can't we just /delete 'Sins?
No, /delete all the broken things in this game.

Squishy ftw

Squishy ftw

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2007

Your backline

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
Can't we just /delete 'Sins?
No, /delete all the broken things in this game. So that's goodbye sins/rits/paras/dervish/pve only skills ?

/SIGNED

Fried Tech

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

[Yeti]

E/

Lets try to stay on topic plz

IslandHermet

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
Nerf both.
Nerf Imbagon, Ursan.
Maybe weaken weakness to weaken Sabway.

And I don't see how Ursan is fun, buttonmashing is boring, but whatever rocks your boat...
Plus at least 95% of the PvE community use it so it's hard to avoid. (Including Guilds.)
And yeah, it's not usable in PvP, but it's stupidly overpowered anyway, even for PvE.
I would have to agree on nerf imbagons, ursan, sabway will do fine even if you remove the weakness skill from the necro. its death nova and the AI (hero's are to good at putting death nova on all the minions)



its a 8 skill bar game button mashing is all you do, the only thing ursan did is take it from 8 to 4. it is still mashing 1-8 with out ursan.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandHermet
I would have to agree on nerf imbagons, ursan, sabway will do fine even if you remove the weakness skill from the necro. its death nova and the AI (hero's are to good at putting death nova on all the minions) Not really. Weakness is also a form of Prot for a Necro in PvE. Death Nova for damage. And SS for starting the stream of minions. Minions are also a battery for the Necro's aswell as a strong damage output without Death Nova due to Barbs.

All in all the synergy is quite clever. But I still want to punch the creators of those crappy R/W, R/D ect. gimmicks in the nose.

And besides, Ursan is one skill, Sabway is 3 heroes, Imbagon is one character. All in all, Ursan allows you more skills. You get 4 skills from using it ( not counting Totem of Man ) and also have 7 skills left in your own skill bar. Essentially 12 skills altogether.

Note these skills can be anything, 2 PvE-only skills left and elite is spent, but for epicly powerful damage, when you can use the other 7 for defensive support while you're out of Ursan. Which is really, really...well, beyond imbalanced and broken, even for PvE standards.

Lishy

Lishy

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2008

Ursan needs no nerf!
You earn your way to r# norn, so you should damn get it as a reward!
But if you absolutely insist, reducing the armor bonus of 20 to 15 or 10 would be nice without turning people off from the skill.
But Ursan does NOT have the highest dps in the game.

Just Raven Blessing and Volfen blessing need better uses doesn't mean to nerf Ursan >_>

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain Fz
Ursan needs no nerf!
You earn your way to r# norn, so you should damn get it as a reward!
But if you absolutely insist, reducing the armor bonus of 20 to 15 or 10 would be nice without turning people off from the skill.
But Ursan does NOT have the highest dps in the game.

Just Raven Blessing and Volfen blessing need better uses doesn't mean to nerf Ursan >_> 180 armour-ignoring damage from a single skill isn't the best DPS in the game?
Share your secret.

blackknight1337

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

USA

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyla salanari
180 armour-ignoring damage from a single skill isn't the best DPS in the game?
Share your secret. lrn2add plz

75+75=150
150 armor ignoring damage on a 3 sec timer + 1 sec cast is under 40 dps
and the kd skill is not armor ignoring

go look at ractoh's imbagon setup, i'm fairly sure his auto-attacks with his spear is close to that, and he gets perma save yourselves to boot.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackknight1337
lrn2add plz

75+75=150
150 armor ignoring damage on a 3 sec timer + 1 sec cast is under 40 dps
and the kd skill is not armor ignoring

go look at ractoh's imbagon setup, i'm fairly sure his auto-attacks with his spear is close to that, and he gets perma save yourselves to boot. A -- I don't play Ursan, so how was I supposed to know the proper damage? Regardless, 150 armour-ignoring damage every 3 seconds is still pretty screwed up coming from ONE SKILL.

B -- I said SINGLE SKILL, that implies Ursan Strike, not Ursan Rage, which even says on the description "Physical damage".

C -- Ursan can do perma-SY aswell. Once Ursan is off, AR + FGJ should have SY permanent for FGJ's duration. Note that Racthoh's Paragon setup is a full character, Ursan allows 12 skills altogether -- Ursan, *4 Ursan skills*, 7 skills left with no elite slot and 2 PvE-only skills left. Totem of Man excluded.