Expertise

tyla, your opinion is worth absolutely nothing, anet made the game the way it is so we could do these things.
your opinion about what is "degenerate" is not anet's

end of discussion unless you can come up with something intelligent

Using them as a primary? No.
Using them as a secondary to synergise with the playstyle the primary should entale? Yes.


So they're still going to be able to spam Rending Touch, Pious Assault and Emerites Attack on recharge? I doubt it.
Escape should also take a hit aswell.

@Kyrein -- Who will this effect other than people who are bad at Ranger anyway? I fail to understand why you're defending degenerate play.

lol this topic i now declare a kitty topic.

on topic
how is it so bad that a person figures out that a ranger can do things for real cheap?
how is that degenerate
if you really think about it all builds are 123456 builds pretty much
R spike enough said
Magebane, the way most run it.
buring arrow hit 1 on recharge woot.
barrage, ifI need to explain this one you should un install guildwars.
plus the rangers who dont use a bow are just silly, cept thumper cause they hurt at least to casters.

i will agree though Sway needs to take a heavy hit but it shouldn't be experties that gets hit hard. We dont want anet messing with that.

but escape needs to be shot repeatedly its too spammy now.

omg! worzorz! primary attributes synergize with secondary professions skills?


thats the point of the attribute dumb ass.

I've discussed why it's degenerate plenty of times.
R-Spike requires alot of skill to play well. Regardless, quite strong. (See Borat's(Killed u man) thread in the HA forum)
I'm not bothered about Burning Arrow, it can annoy people due to spammability and degen pressure.
Barrage, will you explain? :3 In all seriousness, Barrage is the same as Thumpers, built for damage which Rangers shouldn't be.
Agreed on your last point. Weaponswapping out of staff while playing a Trapper sorts the D-Shot and Apply Poison spread.

I really do think I've discussed the rest to death already.

no, you have said it is degenerate, you have not explained why other than "it doesnt fit what I want this class to be!"

please, get out of these forums, you are too stupid to use them

So basically saying "degenerate" over and over proves your point ?

/not signed

That's simple enough, because they probably want these class combos to work. Expertise was already nerfed with the release of Nightfall to reduce it's effect, and with all the Touchers, Thumpers and R/A's as well known builds, it would be a safe to assume that expertise was deliberately left to effect attack and touch skills of secondaries.

None of these R/X builds are overpowered in any way. If you fail to counter them, it is your failure (in game skill) and not the failure of the game's mechanics. None of these R/X builds perform better then the X secondaries could when run as primaries.

How does the failure of c-spacing mobs to counter other c-spacing mobs offer any solid grounds for changing the game mechanics?

How is 'degenerate' an argument? Try to define degenerate build in objective terms - without just claiming it too be 'baed' or degenerate. What measures 'degenerate'?

That is another way of saying, "It's degenerate because I say so!", just as claiming that using a secondary profession other then for minor support is 'degenerate'.

ANet left touch and attack skills under expertise's effect, that is another way of ANet saying that rangers are not meant to be played in the way tyle salanari thinks they ought to be played.

It's not a claim.



Basically you think Rangers aren't ment for condition / interrupt pressure?
Someone has already used that "It's degenerate because I say so" quote, and I have answered it. Go back a few pages. Maybe if HA had less shitty gimmicks it would be more fun. Even HoH is usually 2 R/D's versus 1 balanced. Playing against the same crap is boring. Plus Escape should end on a landing melee attack anyway, and the recharge on Rending Touch aswell. Those are the overpowered parts of the build, and just because there is a counter doesn't mean it's not imba.

Bloodspike is degenerate, and since people do use it, and there are many different skill changes possible, it's quite hard to manage. Like all these Ranger/X gimmicks.

How many times do I need to explain that degenerate builds deserve to die?

@Kyrein -- What points have you come up with? If you want to go melee you should play a Warrior, Dervish or 'Sin, as I have already said. Using these secondary classes as a primary is extremely degenerate as I have said over and over, and degenerate builds need to die. Because they're no fun to play against and the game gets stagnant after a while. Look at HA. Soon this crap will be in GvG aswell.

Oh yeah, you have also not provided a decent argument to why it's not degenerate. So stop with that "You are too stupid to use the forums" bollocks. Provide a half-valid argument.

A primary profession used for energy management CAN and WILL be abused. (I think this is a quote form Ensign as well).
Look at Soul Reaping and Leadership and Expertise ..


The problem with expertise and why it allows degenerate builds is it energy management. You can simply bash buttons on recharge while being effective.
Shock Axe is the best known cookie-cutter build around, however it isn't categorized as a 'degenerate' build, simply because you have to think while using it. The reason why you have to think while using it, is because you don't have got (nearly) infinite recourses available (energy). Expertise does allow that.

Agreed here. But really, I don't see much abuse outside of PvE for Soul Reaping. Leadership is just well...broken... Same for Expertise in a word. Getting rid of the secondary profession manipulation would be a good start, though.

But on Shock Axe -- it's easily the strongest Axe template around. Spikes, utility, it's got it all. It follows the proper way to play a Warrior and requires a decent amount of skill to be able to play at it's full potential.

Alright, I'm going to have to side with Tyla on this one. Mostly. And, since I'm a little more clever and pedagogic than he or she is, I'm going to explain my position in a way that is understandable.

If a primary class can do the job of another primary class, using this class' skills, and do it better... if an R/W can make a better hammer warrior than a Warrior, and if an R/N can make a better necromancer toucher than a Necromancer... then there is a problem with the design of the game.

One more thing... no class in the game is as fundamentally broken as the Ranger. The Soul Reaping analogy does not work.

Soul Reaping provides a conditional superiority. It tells you, if things die with enough frequency, you might be able to outperform other classes at their own game. Is this bad? Maybe. However, Expertise provides an absolute superiority. As an example, R/N vampire touchers are always better than Necromancer touchers. I'm just using this example because it is so blatant, not because it's the most important. A Necromancer could never run the N portion of an R/N toucher build... because he would run out of energy. Now, that's irony, isn't it?

Expertise should be changed.

They finally fixed it now

This is what they've done in the past. Leadership is broken, but instead of fixing the primary they tried to fix it with timers to the skills: Watch Yourself and Go For The Eyes.
Same with Rangers, they tried to fix thumpers in the past with nerfing Irresistible Blow. At the moment there are too many skills/templates that need to be nerfed as it's better to kill the attribute for secondaries then nerfing the skills which will produce even more whining.

That, it's multi-dimensional and you can't spam it. You need to wait to build up your adrenaline, you can't spam shock, you need to wait for windows of opportunity to release your adrenaline spike. Those things allow it to be the most effective and damaging template available. R/D, R/W, R/P are just button mashers that take no skill and can simply deal more damage (one dimensional) then that shock-axe. That needs to stop.

It's not, at all. As said throughout this topic - secondaries are a brilliant idea on Anet's part. But bars like R/D's and thumpers are degenerate and need to die. Why, you ask? Because any bar that can be effective whilst being played by a 10yr old who has a spasm in his mouse holding hand is not good for the game.

Holy.. shit...

Post of the year. Epic stuff.

?

What are you trying to explain?

So now you just contradicted yourself, and managed to come out with a final opinion that is.. wrong.

Please, stop posting. Every post you make is just ridiculously clueless. The only times you actually hint at being right, is when you repeat what was said previously by another poster.

No? It's more like ... an opinion. Yours.

Indeed, basically I think Rangers don't need to be restricted to condition and interrupts - the archetypal ranger is not limited to archery - and even their own attribute lines and skills offer other uses then conditions and interrupts. Pets and traps have already been mentioned as example

You've hardly answered it, you've narrowed it donw to calling the use of a secondary 'degenerate'. But that still isn't justified in any way, combining primary and secondary professions is a major concept of GW.

The problem is with your (style of) classifications, what is or what isn't 'degenerate' and what is 'meant to' is rather arbitrary and personal.
If certain builds become 'no fun to play against' because they are overpowered it is more constructive to look at how these overpowered builds can be toned down without exterminating every possibility of diversity and versatility.

I know. Because he was right. When was the last time you actually STRUGGLED with Guild Wars?

It's not a claim, not an opinion. A fact. The skill level needed for the build, the displacement of how the Ranger was supposed to be played anyway...
That, is just the same reason Ranger Turret was nerfed -- along with it being overpowered. Think R/D-way.



Because traps aren't condition pressure? Pets are just stupidity on the devs' side, cool to have, yeah, but a stupid thing.



It isn't really combining the secondary profession with the primary. It's becoming the primary via the secondary.



Versatility? Turning Rangers into 1-dimensional crap isn't versatility, that's takking the versatility away.

As I have said before aswell, things like this, even if it wasn't overpowered or degenerate should be changed. If not? The game gets stagnant. PvP becomes more PvE because it becomes more of the repetetive crap, with noone using builds that take minimal effort.

Plus "finding a counter" doesn't mean something shouldn't be changed because of imbalanced or degenerate. It means bar space gets cramped, which promotes build versus build, which equals rock paper scissors, which equals build wars and taking the essence of skill away from PvP.

Degenerate builds, again should die. Skillless, inflexible pieces of crap that are boring to play against.

Seriously, how long do I need to continue this to get it out of your people's thick skulls?

@Darkobra -- GvG, where skill determines victory. HA, where skill should determine victory.

Can people not read the thread?
Your example of warriors is moot, Would you like me to reiterate why? And your vision of the necro mancer is extreamly far off. The only reason you could say a Touch ranger is better than a necro primary is because blood magic is fairly weak as a whole and is in need of a complete overhaul.

And Touch rangers are little more than a nuasance, a simple skill functionality change would break them, but I still don't see why they should effect you. And again I'm saying this not because I don't think these builds deserve to get nerfed, but that Expertise is NOT THE PROBLEM. Why should an entire profession die when several skills can be tweaked to remove Tyla's so called "Degenerate crap"?

Expertise nerf won't sort out Packhunters or RaO's, no. But it will get rid of the other pieces of crap. RaO limited to only Ranger skills. RaO's screwed.
And how does the ENTIRE profession die? People who understand the proper use of a Ranger will still be there.

Just the crap removed. If you think Rangers are useless after this nerf if it takes place, stop being a scrub.

honored more like :P

/unsigned for obvious reasons its just a fail!

Tyla's posts in a nutshell:
"Even though ANet has specifically stated that rangers should be allowed to use secondary attack skills under expertise, I don't think they should, because it's 'degenerate'...so says I."

You fail, mkay? Your opinion is just that, an opinion, not a fact, and most certainly not one supported by ANet. Just read the attribute; were you not here when they changed it from affecting basically everything, to just what the attribute reads right now? ANet has affirmed the ranger's ability to be a thumper, a dagger master, or whatever else, just as they affirmed Deadly Arts' ability to be the primary focus of a build (not a support line) with a full range of lead, offhand, and dual attacks, and skills that give buffs to assassin spells while disabling dagger attacks. That just screams "build around me!" right there.

Bottom line: your opinion of what makes a build "degenerate" does not fit with ANet's opinion of what we should be able to do with secondaries. Deal.

And btw, thumpers are no more mindless than 90% of the builds that are run in this game. Heck, how are they any different from a standard warrior who runs around, smacks stuff, builds up adrenaline, and spikes? Pretty much the only thing the warrior has to do that is more difficult is stance canceling...makes all the difference, amiright? The thumper has to deal with getting his pet to attack the right target; not as difficult to be sure, but certainly not a simple feat, and something that you can practice and get better at. Just like a warrior, both classes can be run by idiots who just like to smack things, and both classes can be run more effectively by people who put thought into their play. Spam KDs, or try to interrupt something with your KD before spiking? In sway, you just spam, and it's completely mindless, but fully taking out all secondary builds is not necessary for nerfing sway (and it won't even be effective. Wooo I have to pay 5 energy instead of 2-3 to get a crushing blow off.)

Anyway, bring on the cats, because this topic got stupid when people started plugging their fingers in their ears and chanting "DEGENERATE" about 3 pages ago.

This may not "kill" rangers in PvP, because all the r/x builds generally suck in any organized PvP against any kind of good team...but if that's the case, why bother nerfing the fun of people who are just experimenting? Why bother limiting options like this, when they've given us a huge open system where we can mix secondary skills with primary attributes? They've given us spirit's strength, and illusionary weaponry, CLEAR indicators that we can use casters as melee characters as well. Will they outshine a warrior? No, of course not. But they're still fun to play occasionally, and there is no good reason to remove that kind of experimental fun.

I disagree with the OP, as I think Expertise is fine as is. I say leave it be.

However, I quote the above post because it states so well the case for "fixing Expertise." Moloch, I do not agree with your conclusion (as I am not convinced, for example, that a R/W makes a more effective hammer Warrior than a W/X), but I must commend you for making such a sensible and well-reasoned argument. Your point about Soul Reaping was particularly good.

Skyy, please quit the game. Read Pyro Maniac's post where he described Warriors as a multi-dimensional powerhouse of damage.

And tell me how Thumpers require skill. Hit RaO on recharge and smash Hammer Bash -> Crushing Blow -> Mauling Strike or whatever the pet skill is, and there you go. For target switching? Micro your pet to go on aggressive on your next target. Simple.

And pay attention to that thing I said earlier...EC -> SD spike would have probably been nerfed regardless of balance because Mesmers aren't supposed to be played like that.

Oh yeah, if the majority of builds are mindless, I want to see you in high level GvG, kthx.

Plus you're not paying attention to what I'm saying on anything. Coming up with the same "Even though ANet has specifically stated that rangers should be allowed to use secondary attack skills under expertise, I don't think they should, because it's 'degenerate'...so says I." crap. You've seen some of the retarded stuff that's been created. When Turret Rangers spawned they were nerfed because they were overpowered and degenerate.

Stop failing yourself, and stop posting because the whole "Warriors take no skill" thing is extremely stupid, likewise, your arguments.

Press 123456 in top 100 GvG.

Tyla, I'd be more inclined to take you seriously if you could make atleast one post that did not contain the word "Degenerate" or your own opinion on class specifications stated Matter'o'factly.

Again, it's not an opinion. And again, it's degenerate builds. Who cares about people bad at Rangers and the secondary profession they're manipulating and using as their first? Bad players. I've explained why it's degenerate already aswell. And boring to play against. Stop defending that gimmicky shit because "it's synergy", because it isn't.

If you want numbers play a Dervish or a Warrior, or even a 'Sin.

Wow this has gotten pretty out of hand just because some guy keeps failing to Rangers in HA and fails to bring counters at all.

No QQ over HA builds should ever be taken serious, as someone has already stated "HA is full of gimmicks, it has been since day one"

Wheres the Kitten Poll? <---much more gooder topic to discuss than this BS

And Stormlord Alex's kitten to the poll when added please .

PS to those of you that say "A RaO does more Dmg than a Hammer Warrior" All I can say is LEARN TO PLAY you have got to be kidding me, and I cant tell you the last time I saw a RaO in PvP anyway, they are dead, been dead. I LOLED huge at the posts that thought this, funny shit.

As far as R/D, 1 anti melee Necro with Rigor mortis (Which is part of the typical balanced build in any PvP arena) can shut down several of them without breaking a sweat.

Trappers in HA, wanding > trappers, any hex kills natrual stride, then wand away.

Oh for RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO sake. It's that these builds are degenerate and boring to play against, not their power -- FOR THE MILIONTH TIME.

Oh, and by the way, trappers are usually accompanied with Song of Conc, and more than just Natstride for a block stance I've seen.

Playing against R/D-ways all the time is SO BORING. I want a new gimmick to load on.

A millionth +1 because of ignorance, stupidity, and most of all people being beyond stubborn.

Again Tyla, you amaze us with your depth and insight into the matter...
You've yet to provide any circumstantial evidence to back up your claims, leaving them to be just (like every other post in the last 3 pages has told you) worthless opinions. YES, rangers can use a secondary profession. YES, expertise allows them to due it particularly well. NO, they are not replacing said secondary, just offering a new aproach to it (typically involving escape or RaO, which, like I've stated several other times in this thread, should be nerfed)
If you are going to post in this thread again please try to follow these guidelines, I believe you failed to catch them last time.And please, take your Escapeway QQ garbage out of the thread.

Lolu.
You've yet to provide evidence against my evidence. GG.

Ima archive this thread for the lulz. srsly...

Congratulations, you've degenerated degenerate into a degenerating word....
gtfo

The fact that there are counters doesn't mean it is balanced and should excist in the first place
What alot of you fail to realise is that versatility isn't always a good thing. Yes it allows more builds thus less 'cookie-cutter' builds as you think. However as we've seen, Nightfall with many strong skills only made the balance worse.

The argument: "It isn't Anets opinion or intention" is just plain fail. There is a need of certain balance, alot of opinions have come and will come from the community.

There's no doubt that we need balance, it's just that nerfing espertise is not the answer. Sure it will nerf a few of the builds (touchers and R/D) but then those can be easily fixed with minor skill tweaks.
A huge arguement in this thread has been that thumpers are overpowered, but the fact is they don't use expertise in conjunction with their secondary (the only warrior energy skill used is crushing blow) so arguements like that realy shouldn't be taken worth a grain of salt in a "Nerf Expertise thread"

You sir, win the thread! You get a cookie for delving through this entire useless thread to actually quote EVERY sentance in which Tyla said Degenerate! I lolled out loud! Awesome!

On another note: hey! I'm in before the lock

few thoughts here.

first is that this is purely a whining thread by the OP, based on his getting bashed by a variety of rangers using their secondaries wisely.

second, there's only ONE instance i can think of where a ranger primary does the job better than the class that he's taken the secondary of and that is the toucher, which is so very easily countered.

third, the OP needs to find himself a dictionary - and honest to god Webster's, or maybe the Oxford English, and get a proper definition for degenerate....

and, as loathe as i am to do it, i'm forced to use the guru axim (though i refuse to use leetspeak to do it)

"Learn to play, you whining scrub".

k folks, thanks for the time, eh?

bye...

A Warrior should use Rampage as One?

Actually, my vision of the N profession is pretty fine

This makes absolutely no sense. The only reason I can say that a vampiric toucher ranger is better than a necromancer primary vampiric toucher... is because it IS better. The "strength" or "weakness" of Blood is a completely moot point (and yes, I agree, it's weak, and getting weaker.)
Of course it's the problem. It's lead to astronomical costs of some ranger skills, which effectively makes them unviable to other primaries - even those with absolutely stunning energy management options - while skills from other professions are unfairly cheap for the ranger.

Also I don't see why you should lock the thread just because some people behave like trash. Last I checked people behaving like trash meant bans and deleted posts. It's not a taboo discussion.

Fix Expertise!

this still open?

That'd be fun to watch, but my point was more or less that thumpers have an edge over warriors because of said skills.
If you think the blood magic line is a good comparison to explain how rangers are more effective than their primaries by utilizing expertise, I think you should get some glasses.
If you can show me a strong necro primary toucher build, I'll consider that opinion actualy partaining to this thread, if not, why are you comparing something the ranger does as better than necro primaries if it is completely different?
This is partially true, but it's abit late to rework an entire profession. And realy has nothing to do with the main argument in this thread: Tyra's "Degenerate rangers that use secondary skills"