Dishonorable - Worst Idea Ever

These are the members of the community that Anet catered to... They were the first to QQ because they failed at PvPing in RA and AB and so they sought to drag down the rest of the non-failing players out of pure spite. Now, we have no choice but to NOT PvP anymore, or just afk when we know we're in a team with these kinds of players attached to us. They also implemented such a failing system after many years having passed, which only proves that this system wasn't really needed, but rather "wanted" by a select group of QQing new/casual players among the community.

Being able to leave a match was where it's at. The whole team could choose to map out and reroll another team and that was grand. Nothing was ever too hard about that... Now, we're just stuck and have to waste additional time to rake in any gladiator points because those who can give a s*** less about farming were the very players that cried about everything and had Anet screw everybody over with farming.

Right, cause there's no more loot scaling now, amirite?

Yay, another one that wants to play RA as TA.

Ever heard of TA? try it.

Hahah yeah play TA if you don't like RA. Seems to me Regulus X is doing more QQing than the ones he claims are qqing. haha

You have extremely bad logic. n00b players don't go on game forums to complain en masse: it is always the good/experienced players. Many of these players were pissed off at the amount of leavers because in such a small game, they would most likely lose. These people only "fail" at PvP because you were the dick that left the group to lose.

To reiterate, there are two undesirable types in RA: the n00bs and the leavers/leechers. The n00bs cannot be blamed: they just don't know the game real well yet, and they can be taught eventually. The leavers/leachers, however, can be blamed for their actions, as they know the game, but consciously refuse to play under any conditions that are not to their liking. I am willing to say that everyone else who doesn't leach/leave or is n00bish would rather have a n00b than an empty slot, and Dishonorable makes empty slots not happen. You say Anet caters to the "people that fail at PvP" when in reality you want Anet to cater to your specific needs in order to PvP. If you really need a good team to win in RA, then that just proves that you are that bad at PvP, for you can only play in certain conditions that are barely met.

So, long story short, you fail at PvP for quitting like a coward and not making use of your Random situation.

/applause

Bravo!

/winthread

Marlinbacka, you're just GREAT!

On topic: It's ramdom! You never know with who you'll be teamed with, live with it or quit playing.

No, it is about your "fun" being contrary to the rules and making the ones following them "fun" lessened. RA is intended (and has always been) for those to go into random teams and one never knows what they will get. Leaving violates that.

To take it to an extreme example (and as such fails at a few places) it is like a paintballer getting mad because his fun is using real gun. Sure, it may be a blast for that person but it isn't so nice for the rest.

In PvE we will note that some people fun are with breaking the rules of the game - they also tend to get banned for the same reason.

Not necessarily - I also used to leave the few times I played. The leavers required it. The rest of the team I was on did also (to note, I didn't unless the rest of the team wanted too - which is still doable if the whole team wants too).

To take the extreme example above here (because it also fits) the rest of the people may not like having to carry a real firearm too but the few make it a requirement that you do.

Lastly, even if the vast majority wanted it this way doesn't make it right. To use another "extreme" (yet this time real) example just because at one time (and the few places it still happens) the majority thought slaves were fine and dandy (and the natural order of things) didn't make the system the Right thing to do.

You mistake "random" to be the whole process - you have random teams and organized teams. If it was fully random I would highly agree - however it is only random in team assignment. Thus, while you could easily say what you do it would require a willful disregard to what the system intends (either that or extreme stupidity - I will assume a willful disregard). Now, I do agree that it has become less random because of syncing but then I think that ought to result in a fairly long term ban for the accounts doing it (or at the least have the ability to do so removed).

No, *your* entire point for going there is that - that is entirely different from what Anet designed it to be. In PvE land the same thing happens - people argue what the whole point of the game is - title hunting, rare item hunting, farming, killing things, etc and tell the others that they are playing the game wrong. Turns out PvE is about having fun and allowing you to do it. PvP has different "points" depending on which type you play.

Anet has always kept RA for two basic reasons.

The first is for people who can not get into a team in TA to be able to get a team (and thus you can't leave because you don't like their builds). These people are generally considered bad or new players and is why they require so many wins before unlocking TA. It is a place to learn.

The second is for people who want a non-serious version of PvP wherein you get to play with, well, *random* teams. See reason number one as to why this was never anything more than a playground for PvP.

There is not really any place for what you want - there is no place that it is intended to randomly form teams that will disband until they get a team setup every one likes. It is assumed that if you are good enough to fit into a team and care about winning that you can get a team and it is assumed that if you don't care about winning or are bad enough that you are forced on a team that you get whatever you get (and I find this a reasonable assumption).

If you want a team either go to TA or bother to Sync a team. If you want random team assignment to to RA. I would like to see syncing be stopped, however since you usually go out of the RA arenas fairly quickly coupled with syncing being mostly unreliable I don't see it being that much of a problem and not likely to change. It mostly allows people like you to RA with a team they want so you already have your method to do so - in fact it will be MUCH faster than hoping a random group of people randomly grouped will produce something close to the holy trinity that you want.

Dishonorable is working as intended - so far all the complaints only reinforce that it is doing so. There have been VERY few complaints about a dishonorable hex that hasn't done something that is what the hex means (even the ones that have legitimate reason - well if you suddenly have to go AFK you can't complain when the team reports you for being AFK, plus it is only a short period of time if you only get it in those instances).

I LOVE YOU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW! ;D

It promotes syncing because of the existence of glad points. Everybody wants them. So they have 2 choices to get them consistently...look for the best RA team they can find, or sync with friends. Since dishonorable makes it much tougher to find good teams, syncing is the easier option.


Odd...I've played less games than you and seen it more. I've seen reporting of players simply because they were bad by the reporters standards. The more interesting thing is, I saw less leavers than many people claim. I maybe saw a leaver once in every 5-10 games. I see reports at least as many as that.

I personally think griefing is worse now. Think about it: Griefers now know that the griefed can not leave the game without getting dishonorable points. Running is more common than ever...even though it was always common. The only savior from these is the timer, which still isn't enough. Basically my main problem is that there are too many situations in RA now where I'll be staring at my screen doing nothing waiting for the game to end because of dishonorable existing.

Who says it was meant to be played the way it is now? I think it was meant to be played the way it was when it first started (before glad points and before dishonorable).

My problem was that people are claiming that "everybody" loves dishonorable so that is the reason it should stay. My point is that if leaving was SO common before dishonorable (which I disagree with but we say it was so for now), than it stands to reason that a lot of people hated the change.

Source?

Remember, people leaving is not neccessarily just because they want good people on their team. People are making all leaving sound like evil intentions. Maybe they leave because the game is already over and they want to save time, among many other legit reasons. Dishonorable punishes people for legit reasons as well.

The problem with TA is that it takes much more time, has no guarantee of finding a team (times I play there are rarely people in TA), and is worse than RA for gaining glad points (which is the reason many people play RA instead of TA). If you ask me, RA shouldn't have any glad points and TA should.

The TA argument has many problems. TA does not fulfill player needs that RA can such as playing a few quick games or playing without having to organize a team. Also, if the typical PvP player has players online to form a TA team, they would much rather play GvG or HA. TA, even though it sounds like RA, is essentially completely different form of PvP. You can't say just go to TA because TA serves a completely different purpose than RA.

Of course it is against the rules NOW, but that isn't the point. The point is that the rules CHANGED, and some don't like it. The old RA had no rules and that is how a lot of people liked it.

You are making my original point for me. If the majority like dishonorable, does that automatically mean it is the best thing for the game? I don't think so.

Where did you hear that? Without a source, it is just an assumption.

How do you know what Anet designed it to be? For starters, the design of RA now is COMPLETELY different from the original RA. You are basically saying "Anet changed it this way so now you have to play by the new rules they designed".

Fine, but that is not what some people have a issue with. They have a problem with design changes that CHANGED the point of going there. There were hardly any complaints about leavers before glad points came along. Then people were given a farming reason to go there and there was an uproar about leavers. You can't say leavers are the problem when they only came about because of other changes to the arena. You have to say changes are the problem.

Let me give you a PvE example. You claim people can like farming, hunting, titles, killing things, etc. And that is great, and people should be able to play the game however they want to have fun.

Now lets say Anet changed the game so one of those does not exist anymore. They claim they removed it because it ruined the fun of other people who did not like it. Wouldn't you be ticked off because they removed one of the ways you had fun for a stupid reason?

That is how some people feel about some of the RA changes. If PvE is about having fun and allowing you to do it, then why can't PvP (particularly RA) be the same way?

I agree with both of those reasons being reasons for RA. I think there are other reasons as well though (fun?). Let's say both of those reasons are true though...then why was RA changed to begin with and glad points added?

Fair enough. I concede. I can't win this argument. I will say one thing though. All of these "rules" have simply conformed RA to something completely different. RA was originally for screwing around and for newbs. Now, its like RA has been packed into a box, where people can farm and there are various rules, as opposed to its original form where everything was out in the open and everybody was free.

we all know it's shitty, but there's no point crying about it- there are always going to be more shitters that like it because before DH everyone with a brain would've left on them.

syncing is key.

Qft Brilliant you sir wins the thread .

The developers change the game, based on the actions of the players, in order to encourage or discourage a certain type of play.

They added glad points to get more people to do RA, which worked, but resulted in more problems: More synching, leaving and griefing.

They added dishonorable to cut down on the leaving, which in turn reduces synching to an extent.

You can't solve griefing: people just like pissing other people off. That's why some people post here.

Dishonorable discourages a playstyle where 1 unhappy person ruins it for his 3 teammates by not having the courtesy of trying to win.

Dishonorable works like the developers intended.

The question you were responding too was about problems caused by dishonorable, not problems caused by glad points.

Experiences differ. I'm sure only ANet could make a final word here. In the mean time all we have to base it on is our own observations. Most people are observing very few undeserved reports.

Before, a good griefer could keep the 4 players on the opposing team occupied for as long as they could stand to stay around, and their 3 teammates only as long as they stayed. Now, they can keep all 7 occupied for only about 6 minutes (10 on priest maps), assuming it takes the opposing team about 2 minutes to kill the other 3 players. I said above, yes it sucks for those 3 people that they can't leave, and yes I would love to be able to leave in that situation. But it's much better for the 4 people who may or may not be on a winning streak, that they only have to wait out the count down instead of spend an hour chasing a runner around the map because they don't have a snare, or waiting for a shadow-form tank to trip because they don't have non-spell enchant removal. On the whole, it's better.


Well, ANet obviously has a pretty big say, and their idea of how it was meant to be played can be enforced, to a degree, by mechanics like Dishonorable and incentives like Glad points.

Nobody is silly enough to claim everyone likes it, just that most people do. Leavers were far from a majority, but they didn't have to be to wreck it for everyone else. Here's another stat for how common it was: In a typical 10-win streak, no more then 5 battles were usually 4v4 (pre-Dishonorable).


Link

Link

Unfortunately, the Proph manual only talks about GvG and Tombs. Is four quotes from various points in time enough?

A few quotes that have prompted rounds of "Go to TA" in this very thread:
Note the common trend of "I want to leave when there's something I don't like about my team."

Nobody talking about leavers is talking about this.

Then what you'll have to do is weigh the disadvantages of both: In RA, you have to play random teams (disadvantage), while in TA it takes more time to get a team formed and other teams are better (disadvantage). What you can't do is try to force the advantages from TA (that your team composition is under your control) into RA (where it isn't).

Nobody is suggesting everyone just pick up and go to TA. The "Go to TA" line is a counter for the "I leave because my team sucks" line. Most of us don't care if we get an echo-mending wammo on our team (at least not enough to want to leave the match). Those that do care have an arena with a similar format where they can play with a 100% guarantee that they know exactly who will be on their team going in.

You have to ask yourself this...If RA was originally intended to be a newb arena or a screwing around fast PvP arena, then why did they add glad points which added farming and brought a heap of new problems?

Yea...as a patch to previously bad changes that simply adds more problems that weren't originally thought of.

I put them in the same category because dishonorable only came about because of glad points.

You are referring to the timer as a way out of this, and I agree that the timer is good for RA. But this has nothing to do with dishonorable being good. Dishonorable just prevents people from leaving a useless game and wasting those 6 minutes.

Eh...I'm not sure where you got that stat. I don't remember near as many leavers as that. It just doesn't make any sense to me, how habitual leavers can somehow be in the small minority, yet cause a huge uproar and thus a big change to the game.

Yes, thanks for the sources. I do find something humorous about them though. There is the claim that the arenas are good for particualarly new players and fast PvP action. Cool...but then why the heck did they add dishonorable (slows down the action) and glad points (promotes farming newbs).

Therein lies a problem. Even if dishonorable works as intended of stopping the first type of people, it also stops the second type of people and adds new problems. Basically everybody continually brings up the worst abusers (who are the big minority to begin with) and says "dishonorable rules!" when in reality there is much more than that dishonorable kills.

Thats fine and I see what you are saying, but that isn't really the issue with TA. Using it simply as a counter does not work.

Take a player who plays RA once in a while. He leaves at the end of games if the games are going to take a long time to end. He might even leave a game looking for a monk once in a while. He only plays in RA if he doesn't have any friends logged on or doesn't have a lot of time. He can't go to TA because there is nobody in TA to form a team with and he doesn't have the time anyways.

You can't say "go to TA" to this typical RA player. Not to mention, RA is full of players farming gladiator points nowadays, so telling them to go to TA is not going to work because they know RA is easier.

As I said before, RA is a completely different animal nowadays. It is similar to Guild Wars in general in a way...a lot of people think that what it is today is different than what it used to be. Some people just want the good old days back I guess, and this is just a VERY small part of that.

oh my god... i actually made a thread (about a year ago) with an idea to give a punishment for leavers, well my idea was a title that you cannot hide... except that my thread was for PvP and PvE both.... and got yelled at by the forum users! i am happy that now leavers/leechers have some punishment.

dishonorable = good idea

if you cant live with an option that your team might be random and there is not much you can do about it (try to tell a PUG guy in AB : dude your build sucks you HAVE to run X instead or go change characters to your monk; good luck with getting a party of 4) then simply go with guild groups in AB, and dont even bother coming to RA, dont ruin the game for everyone else.

lol if you want to leave your team behind then be prepared to be label dishonorable, live with it as we have live with dishonorable players leaving us to die!

I hope this stick with the character too. probably make their characters that enter the AB area turn green or yellow ochre or some ugly color so players can see they are dishonorable.

Which simply shows my earlier point that a lot of people did not want changes. Some people posting in this thread want you to believe that somehow everybody is happy with things.

it's a shit system, don't think it's the worst idea ever though. They've done way more stupid things before. It'd be ok if dishonored only affected RA maybe - but the fact you can't go and gvg when dishonored is retarded, considering your reason for leaving RA before a match is over might be to make an AT on time... and there's no shortage of 8 minute RA matches, all it takes is 2 monks who don't completely suck vs bad damage and shutdown

That made me wonder:
So if you were to leave a match to catch a GvG match - shouldn't you have 5 points?

Shamelessly on-topic:
I seriously need to try to get this title once. The Wiki piccy is so low-q.

leaving a "less important pvp" game to join GvG is bullcrap. huh i use the word bullcrap hope its not degrading or anything.

I don't GvG, but when ever there's a player missing, i am always able to finish what i was doing then before joining the backup position of a GvG match.

No, wrong, you can't... ATs start at a particular time - the game doesn't wait for you, if you're late, you miss the AT, so don't chat shit that you clearly don't have half a clue about k. When I used to gvg if I was trying a new bar I'd often take 5 minutes to get used to it in RA first, this is totally not a viable thing to do anymore because you can be stuck in a match for one hell of a lot longer, especially on the crag or something.

They added Gladiator points to encourage more people to play RA.

RA is the first PvP. New players try it out and get killed by more experienced players. With no reward, the only people gratified by playing RA were the people who got their kicks killing other players. This discouraged a lot of people from playing RA, and PvP in general.

By adding a reward for RA, more people played. That in turn made RA more competitive, instead of a hunting ground for players ganking PvP newbies for kicks. When it got more competitive, ie difficult to gank opponents, those same players would leave instead of fighting, in search of the perfect team and/or easier kills. Dishonorable discourages them from leaving.
Human's resist change. Gladiator Points encourage more players, Dishonorable encourages sportmanlike conduct. Neither change is bad in and of itself. Both encourage desirable behavior.

I believe that the developers knew that by adding glad points they were going to step up the level of competition in RA. I believe that they added points in RA to increase the number of achievement oriented players and reduce the number of kill oriented players. This increased the RA player base and reduced the number of players who get their kicks off of ganking newbies, which encourages more new blood into PvP.

Dishonorable does not prevent you from leaving. Dishonorable prevents people from making a habit of leaving.

You said something about legitimate reasons to leave. Dishonorable does not affect people with legit reasons to leave. Let's say my wife calls me away from a fight: I leave and come back five minutes later, I can get right back in a game. I only have problems getting in games if I make a habit of leaving my team.
You keep asking this question, I keep answering it. Both encourage desirable behavior and overall more players in PvP.
Your hypothetical person has not stated a legitimate reason to leave a team in the middle of the fight, only in my opinion, self centered ones.

If a player goes into RA, they should plan on staying until the end of the fight. Yes, you'll have idiots, griefers, leavers, newbies. Yes, some people "forget" to bring a rez. Yes, you'll be the only DPS player on a field with 7 monks sometimes. It happens.

Leaving is a player based decision. If a player doesn't like their team, nothing stops them from leaving.

Leave, pay the penalty for doing it and move on.

On reflection, I think this is the best post on this thread. It was on Page 1!

I don't agree with this. If anything, RA is MORE of a newb hunting ground now than ever. To me, adding a reward to RA simply turned it in to a REAL farming ground where I'd easily make a guess that over half of the players are only there for the title. It is no longer its original intention by any stretch of the imagination.

I suppose you can argue that it brought more people to RA and that it is a good thing because of that...but I think it was for all the wrong reasons. Besides, TA is the arena that really needs more players, not RA. Why isn't TA getting any attention?

Also, just because something brings more players to RA does NOT necessarily make it a good thing. What if they added gold to RA? Or rare special items? You would see a FLOCK of new players, but I still think both of those changes would be terrible for the game.

Humans resist change when it is done to something that didn't have much of a problem to begin with. Personally, I think people are largely overestimating the amount of leavers in RA even after glad points and before dishonorable. Before both of those, there was almost no problem to speak of.

"Achievement oriented players" is quite frankly another way of saying title grinders nowadays. I agree with you though. I believe Anet added Glad points because they decided that their entire game was going to be based on a grind based title system, and RA needed a title to fit into that model.

Personally, I would much rather have RA a place where "kill oriented players" start out, because it is much more likely those players will continue into the higher levels of PvP where Guild Wars desperately needs them.

In theory that is true. In practice there are problems at times though (some have been stated previously).

I don't really know how you can like this. I don't want to enter RA with the possibility that I might be staring at my screen for 10 minutes with nothing to do. What kind of fun is that? And it happens more than ever nowadays in my experiences at least.

I just played a session today where literally 50% of the games either had a runner and my team didn't have a snare (I was a monk so don't say I should have brought the snare), or there would be multiple monks with no damage whatsoever to kill anything. Many of those games went the full time. I literally went and got a drink one time and a snack another time. In the old days I would have left, but now I can't leave without fearing that I won't be able to re-enter. Am I really the bad guy for leaving these hopeless situations and looking to actually play a few quick PvP games?

Of course everybody is in a hurry in RA...because that is what it is designed for! Trading, farming, chatting, etc are all things that people enjoy doing and can do for extended periods of time. RA is supposed to be for quick entry fast action PvP for people that may not have a ton of time to form groups or do anything else. Dishonorable simply slows down the entire process. As I said before over and over...these things changed the point of RA completely and some people don't like it.

Then you shouldn't be doing something else before an obviously very important match to you. You should already be familiar with your bar. if its a new bar your guild should have practice with their alliance before hand.

I always finished a game even if I am teamed up with crappy players (maybe they are not, but during that time causing everyone to die) and If I can't make it as a backup, I will inform guild that I can't make it, but if I can I always wait till the end before leaving.

I'll say that I find the dishonorable hex a good idea, but implementating glad points into RA was not. That's for a different discussion, though.

You don't have to.

Because not enough people have made good complaints about TA not having a decent population. If you are successful in TA, it is because you bring your team there.
When you are running a Multiplayer Online Competitive RPG, more players means more money. Changes to code are not free and the changes to add points to RA were obviously added to make the most number of people happy.
Adding dishonorable would not have been added if the problem was as minor as you believe. Contrary to popular belief, the squeaky wheel only gets greased if you can't afford NOT to grease it.
That is because you are likely a kill oriented player, and the type of player that Glad Points and Dishonorable were targeted against.
I really don't care one way or the other. I accept it. This is probably because I am neither a killer nor an achiever: I'm an explorer. I'll watch a griefer and learn how to kill him next time. I go and get a drink, or take a leak if I can't stand to wait.
See, that was a good use of time.

The old days... last year? Seriously, I sympathize with your situation, but I agree with the changes that the designers added because I think I understand why they made those changes, and believe that they did it for the good of the majority of players.

You simply cannot please everyone.

EDIT: Spelling errors. I didn't know that sympathise = sympathize in British English

Yea, I'm not going to sit and argue with you. It's a ridiculous thread full of ridiculous comments on a ridiculous topic and it should've been closed seven pages ago. I'm not disrupting anything valuable, so I'm not going to concern myself with my "tactics".

Because some people are making legitimate points that people like you are not adding anything to.

So you are telling me that glad points didn't make RA a farming arena?

There is a problem with this...there really is. Almost everybody I know who plays TA agrees that there is not enough activity or incentive to play there. The need for improvement is definately there. Honestly, TA needs more improvements than RA ever did.

So why don't they add gold and rare items to RA? It would bring in loads of new players. Answer: it would be bad for the game even though it brought in more players.

Yea I guess. We could go back and forth on this forever with no point and get nowhere (which is basically what we are doing anyways). I'm just saying from my point of view, it was an overly loud rant from a lot of players about a relatively minor problem that came about through a previously bad change. I know many people disagree with me but thats how I see it.

Maybe. I was just saying RA used to be more of a training ground and the beginning of PvP for people to move to other PvP. Now it is more of a farming ground where people can stay forever and gain a title.

Fair enough. But being random arenas, there are just a lot of situations where there is literally nothing you can do.

I consider the old days any time before changes were made to Guild Wars that I believe made the game worse. And that was a lot of times, even though I still like the game today. BUT I suppose I am in the minority, and if the majority is happy with how the game is now compared to where it used to be, than so be it. Life goes on.

yes, but even tough the thread was closed in about 2 hours or so cuz of flaming, i guess Anet had the same idea as me

i bet most of teh people complaining are those who tend to leave a match if they see 2 mesmers on the team or leech factions in AB/RA. its there for a good purpose whether people like it or not.

I said that adding a reward (gladiator points) was instituted to increase the PvP player base. Human nature being what it is, some of the players, perhaps most of them, are farming points.
I agree that TA needs improvement, but the changes applied to RA were necessary for the health of the game.
Those changes would bring in more players into PvP at the expense of play on the PvE side. The developers have enough trouble keeping PvE'rs happy as it is, don't you think?
I understand that. I'm just trying to show you that the picture is a lot bigger if you step away from how change effects you and look at it on how it effects everyone.

I don't mind people getting hexed for leaving. But what pisses me off is when people DON'T report leechers. I always report them, but because my team is too lazy, I'm the only one reporting and therefore get dishonor points. You should be able to /report people after everyone has died, because people are generally too busy fighting to report the leecher before they lose.

I think actually the opposite, at least on Guru. There are many here that are clearly against directions GW went, and even some as brazen enough to shamelessly plug for games that aren't even out yet. *coughAoCcough*

But nevertheless, I find enough people in GW to still make the game enjoyable.

/inb4lock

I'm glad dishonorable was implemented. It made lower end PvP playable again...

i find that if u want better teams, u just go to international for ra.

I think the act of farming anything should be left to PvE, but I guess Anet does not agree.

Maybe. The problem though is that Anet makes plenty of updates that many feel are less important than making changes the game desperately needs.

Keeping PvE'rs happy is the entire goal of Anet. I could probably argue that dishonorable was implemented because of the complaints of PvE players. I could argue nearly every change in the past 2 years of Guild Wars was to make PvErs happy. I'm glad people are happy. The only problem is when it is at the expense of people who liked the game better before the changes.

Fair enough. The majority are happy. Anet succeeded (for now I suppose).

Maybe, but I am not seeing it. For me personally, I think this game was 10x better 2-3 years ago, and that isn't due to boredom. Most of the people I know who quit Guild Wars quit due to changes that they hated in the game rather than being bored of the game. That says A LOT.

I agree with Red Sand, Dreamwind is only speculating HIS reasons and opinions which are clearly wrong. He has no clue what Anets focus and intentions are. Red makes solid points that are more akin to the reality of the dishonor system and why more people play RA now.

How can an opinion be wrong? Anyways, of course I know what Anets focus and intentions are...it is clear as day. Their intention was to change the game (and in this case RA) completely, and they did the job. I don't think it is a good thing, but whether or not that is true is up for debate.

Short answer: the opinion of people that the Earth was flat IS wrong. Repeating something does not make it true.

I remember the pre-Dishonor days on GWG and there were a lot of complaints about leechers and leavers. A lot. A bit like Ursan nowadays. So Anet did a bold move to implement such a system and it paid off. Of course, people on the bad side of the stick will complain, and some people will even propose idealised alternatives (that wouldn't work in practice).

I don't see anything fruitful coming out of this discussion, apart from making DreamWind understand the reality of the majority.

Um...the difference is that we can prove the Earth is round. That makes it no longer an opinion, but a fact. If I have the opinion that Guild Wars was better before certain changes, how can you prove it wrong?

Thats because of glad points (I think I said earlier). People were given a farming reason to go there and so leavers increased a little, and complaints increased a lot.

And yes I suppose Ursan is similar to RA changes in a way. While a lot of people complain about Ursan, you have to believe that the majority like it thus Anet is not changing it. You then have to ask yourself: Even though the majority of people like it, is it good for the game? I say no to both.

Did it? Is there a legitimate way to prove that it paid off other than saying "oh I see more people in RA now"?

I already said earlier that I know the majority probably like it. But does it mean the discussion is over simply because the majority say it is?