Nerf Chaos Plains or Shadowform?
Abbess
Yet again, if i had an eternal blade, It would still be worth 1,000,000,000k. So they are a means to fow armor, oh darn! You won't be the only one with it anymore, how devastating! If Obsidian armor is the only thing losing value, then there is definately no real need for a nerf. Vabbian armor loss value but you dont hear anyone whining.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Kinn
I'm just saying there are counters, Einstein.
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PvE balance is usually, when it is at all, defined as balance between the abilities of classes. SF for solo farming is immensely powerful, which seems ironic when Spirit Bond was hit for giving the same thing - permanent invulnerability (with some counters).
I don't know, or really care, if SF needs a nerf. It just gets added to a long list of ways to win the game. Any economy fixes aren't going to be found by hitting a single build - a new sink for ectos or a major change to their supply might.
Abedeus
Abbess - get a bonder and you can tank and kill in 95% of areas.
And the 5% is Smite Hex/Signet of Disenchantment. With earth build you have ward of stability available. But those areas are not profitable.
And the 5% is Smite Hex/Signet of Disenchantment. With earth build you have ward of stability available. But those areas are not profitable.
Abbess
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Originally Posted by Bryant Again
"God Mode: Not available in every area." Still doesn't excuse it.
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Abedeus
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Originally Posted by Abbess
Ok so if we nerf SF, lets nerf 600 builds and 55 builds too. They are all different forms of invinci-farmers. SF is hardly a "God Mode". You are arguing an exaggerated form of SF not its actuality.
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SF IS GOD MODE. Invincibility to spells? Check. Invincibility to ALL attacks, melee and ranged? Check. No energy problems with right build? Check. Can be maintained? Check. Bonder that can eliminate degeneration/PBAoE damage and boost SF's skills? Check.
Productivity
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Originally Posted by Abbess
Yet again, if i had an eternal blade, It would still be worth 1,000,000,000k. So they are a means to fow armor, oh darn! You won't be the only one with it anymore, how devastating! If Obsidian armor is the only thing losing value, then there is definately no real need for a nerf. Vabbian armor loss value but you dont hear anyone whining.
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I won't hold it against you, I don't care at all to be honest, items mean nothing to me (my main runs around in Krytan Armour because I like the look, despite being able to easily afford FOW armour a few times over if I wanted to), I just think it's a sign of people who want the game to play itself for them while they feel they've acheived something.
Yawgmoth
I'd hit both, although SF is far more important, a top priority. It's overpowered beyond any other farming build in terms of power level and number of viable uses and it's only used now for Chaos Plains farm simply because that's most profitable now, but it will change with time and imbasins will move to a different place or places.
And changing just Glyph of Swiftness doesn't solve anything - there's still Arcane Echo - a proper SF nerf should make it impossible to consistently maintain it in any way.
The best way is adding a line reading: "This skill is disabled for 60 seconds" and changing the duration so even on 17 shadow arts and with 20% enchanting mod it lasts no more than 30 seconds.
No skill of THIS power level should be possible to be maintained 24/7.
As for Chaos Plains I would only do a small slight change - make a 33% chance for the 3-Mindblade spawn to contain a different one - with different skills, with something like Leech Signet and/or Sig of Disenchantment and a Sig of Humility. (in the groups of 3 only not to make it much harder for regular teams that could get overwhelmed by the big groups running more skills to own monks with). The different Mindblade could have a different name or appearance so farmer can avoid the group, in effect plains would remain farmable but less efficiently.
And changing just Glyph of Swiftness doesn't solve anything - there's still Arcane Echo - a proper SF nerf should make it impossible to consistently maintain it in any way.
The best way is adding a line reading: "This skill is disabled for 60 seconds" and changing the duration so even on 17 shadow arts and with 20% enchanting mod it lasts no more than 30 seconds.
No skill of THIS power level should be possible to be maintained 24/7.
As for Chaos Plains I would only do a small slight change - make a 33% chance for the 3-Mindblade spawn to contain a different one - with different skills, with something like Leech Signet and/or Sig of Disenchantment and a Sig of Humility. (in the groups of 3 only not to make it much harder for regular teams that could get overwhelmed by the big groups running more skills to own monks with). The different Mindblade could have a different name or appearance so farmer can avoid the group, in effect plains would remain farmable but less efficiently.
Abbess
Ok, yet again, there are substitutes to ectos. They aren't increasing rare item drops so i don't think there is anything to worry about.
And if you argument is being able to farm 95% of the map, I can do that with my 600 monk. And unlike the SF sin, i can handle interrupts, i can handle signets, i really dont have to worry about dying, and touch skills really don't bother me much. In fact, Mindblade spawns are so predictable i could probably 600 chaos plains. So what i really want to hear from you is a real argument. There are many builds that have "God mode" in certain areas. Sure the level of skill varies. Look at ursan. Maybe not a solo build but it doesnt take much insight to use. Its not going to "destroy" the economy because there are alternatives. Please give me something valid. I am tired of ripping poor arguments to shreads. Where's the fun in that?
And if you argument is being able to farm 95% of the map, I can do that with my 600 monk. And unlike the SF sin, i can handle interrupts, i can handle signets, i really dont have to worry about dying, and touch skills really don't bother me much. In fact, Mindblade spawns are so predictable i could probably 600 chaos plains. So what i really want to hear from you is a real argument. There are many builds that have "God mode" in certain areas. Sure the level of skill varies. Look at ursan. Maybe not a solo build but it doesnt take much insight to use. Its not going to "destroy" the economy because there are alternatives. Please give me something valid. I am tired of ripping poor arguments to shreads. Where's the fun in that?
MarlinBackna
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Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X
Kill SF= killing ecto farming as well as killing green farming and elite tome farming.
If this happens: WTS ectos 20k ea. Honestly people, do you want to keep the prices low? Put into consideration, if you nerf SF, you will also nerf green farming (particularly if you are desperate on equipping your heroes) and elite tome farming (if you want an elite skill to help for your newly created character). |
I'm up for nerfing Chaos Plains. All it needs [Signet of Humility] or a new monster with [Chilblains]. (NVM @ Chilblains Screw non-updating skills in bbcode!
Bah. W/E
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Originally Posted by Abbess
Ok, yet again, there are substitutes to ectos. They aren't increasing rare item drops so i don't think there is anything to worry about.
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Tyla
Please read Chillblains' description. It has to target an enemy now.
And the AI probably still can be manipulated, even with Hum Sig.
And the AI probably still can be manipulated, even with Hum Sig.
Abbess
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Originally Posted by MarlinBackna
That's like saying (in America) that $1 coins are substitutes to $1 bills. Yes, they are, but no one ever uses them at all. |
Seriously, give me a serious argument spare me the side of BS.
Abedeus
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Originally Posted by Abbess
Ok, yet again, there are substitutes to ectos. They aren't increasing rare item drops so i don't think there is anything to worry about.
And if you argument is being able to farm 95% of the map, I can do that with my 600 monk. And unlike the SF sin, i can handle interrupts, i can handle signets, i really dont have to worry about dying, and touch skills really don't bother me much. In fact, Mindblade spawns are so predictable i could probably 600 chaos plains. |
SF Assassin doesn't have to worry about interrupts. SF can be interrupted only by a knockdown by a Shout, Trap or Signet (traps that knockdown only exist in Factions, same goes for Shouts, Signets only in Proph). Oh, and you have ward of stability.
There are 4 skills that penetrate SF and can interrupt its cast. Signet of Disruption, Signet of Distraction, Signet of Judgment (knockdown, preventable) and, when unlucky, Signet of Humility. Any monsters worth farming with those skills?
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| Look at ursan. Maybe not a solo build but it doesnt take much insight to use. Its not going to "destroy" the economy because there are alternatives. Please give me something valid. I am tired of ripping poor arguments to shreads. Where's the fun in that? |
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| Seriously, give me a serious argument spare me the side of BS. |
MarlinBackna
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Originally Posted by Abbess
Oh ok your right. Because we don't use them my argument is clearly invalid. How could i be so stupid. So i definately think that Zkeys are no a viable trade exchange because people don't use them.
Seriously, give me a serious argument spare me the side of BS. |
Say I have a bunch of gold bullion. Everyone knows gold, it's great and it's shiny. However, copper is quickly becoming in demand and everyone can't seem to get enough. These guys sitting on a bunch of gold won't change just because the market is hot for copper now. Why? Because gold has been used as currency for thousands of years, and will always have value. Most if not all copper gets used in houses, businesses, and pretty much everywhere and is consumed in the process, whereas very large amounts of gold are never made into rings, but is used as currency.
See the analogy? ZKeys are really meant to be consumed and, however expensive, get dumped out of the market quickly. We have tons upon tons of ecto that never will get made into Obisidian Armor/Chaos Gloves because they are currency to us. Sure, you can use ZKeys as "currency", but as gold is the Earth's currency, ectos are the Tyrian currency. You won't make money by shifting large amounts of ZKeys. You do it by shifting large amounts of ecto.
kostolomac
A little question to the "nerf SF leave other UW farming builds alone!" people. Two people go on a killing rampage , one kills 5 , the other 10 for the same time. So by your analogy only the second should be punished because he was more effective? Every build that can farm UW for ectos is destroying the economy , either nerf all or none. The game economy was sh*t before even ursan or SF.
Lord High Pwner
Along the lines most of you are taking.... Let's nerf GW2 while we're at it. When that comes out whats going to happen to your ecto hordes then?
Abbess
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
You can't maintain Spell Breaker. Once they interrupt either prot spirit, spirit bond OR shield of absorption, you are DEAD. Oh and you can't kill behemoths.
SF Assassin doesn't have to worry about interrupts. SF can be interrupted only by a knockdown by a Shout, Trap or Signet (traps that knockdown only exist in Factions, same goes for Shouts, Signets only in Proph). Oh, and you have ward of stability. There are 4 skills that penetrate SF and can interrupt its cast. Signet of Disruption, Signet of Distraction, Signet of Judgment (knockdown, preventable) and, when unlucky, Signet of Humility. Any monsters worth farming with those skills? Ursan did heavily damage economy already. Stop failing at looking at the facts. Funny, after that statement I know that nothing will convince you. Go away then, you are better than everyone, farm UW some more. |
And Ursan destroyed the economy? Then i guess we don't have an economy atm! Just because certain things become more available doesn't make it bad. This is why i love PvErs so much. First they complain that PVP balance changes messed up their lives so we gave them a dual system. Now they are complaining that they got what they want?
Tyla
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Originally Posted by Abbess
Ok I will throw the same phrase right back at ya: Stop failing at looking at the facts. SF Assasins can only do so much. You are only talking about survivability, which even still is a flawed argument. You are still ignoring AoE damage that makes certain areas difficult, along with certain well spells. Furthermore, SF builds are really not too effective in other areas! Mass healing and other enemy factors makes farming places fairly difficult. I think you would be suprised to find the list of places you can't farm, far outweighs the places you can't. The problem is you are so fixated on this Chaos Plains issue.
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An SF 'Sin can take advantage of the majority of problems, apart from the very few things, and when I say a few I mean very very little.
Abbess
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Originally Posted by MarlinBackna
Okay, my analogy wasn't the best one. But my point is that almost everyone isn't willing to switch their assets to another type of material. Here, I have another analogy...
Say I have a bunch of gold bullion. Everyone knows gold, it's great and it's shiny. However, copper is quickly becoming in demand and everyone can't seem to get enough. These guys sitting on a bunch of gold won't change just because the market is hot for copper now. Why? Because gold has been used as currency for thousands of years, and will always have value. Most if not all copper gets used in houses, businesses, and pretty much everywhere and is consumed in the process, whereas very large amounts of gold are never made into rings, but is used as currency. See the analogy? ZKeys are really meant to be consumed and, however expensive, get dumped out of the market quickly. We have tons upon tons of ecto that never will get made into Obisidian Armor/Chaos Gloves because they are currency to us. Sure, you can use ZKeys as "currency", but as gold is the Earth's currency, ectos are the Tyrian currency. You won't make money by shifting large amounts of ZKeys. You do it by shifting large amounts of ecto. |
Lord Sojar
Give the aatxe signet if disenchantment and expunge as well, POOF, fixed! Not like any of you are nice to the poor aatxe anyways; meanies.
Oh, and now that Avarre has joined the zerg, did I mention I have 30 science vessels upgraded with irradiate?
Oh, and now that Avarre has joined the zerg, did I mention I have 30 science vessels upgraded with irradiate?
Abbess
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Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief
Give the aatxe signet if disenchantment and expunge as well, POOF, fixed! Not like any of you are nice to the poor aatxe anyways; meanies.
Oh, and now that Avarre has joined the zerg, did I mention I have 30 science vessels upgraded with irradiate? |
MarlinBackna
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Originally Posted by Abbess
Ecto is only a currency because it was chosen to be. However, by nature, it doesn't have to be. So if you only argument is being unwilling to change, then it by no means undermines the fact that substitutes will work just as fine. Furthermore, the fact there is so much resistance proves the economy needs to be weened from this ecto standard. There are substitutes and they therefore invalidate the need for ecto.
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Abedeus
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| You are only talking about survivability, which even still is a flawed argument. You are still ignoring AoE damage that makes certain areas difficult, along with certain well spells. Furthermore, SF builds are really not too effective in other areas! Mass healing and other enemy factors makes farming places fairly difficult. I think you would be suprised to find the list of places you can't farm, far outweighs the places you can't. |
Btw, my assa solo can clear almost all destroyers from 1st wave of Glint's Challenge, except for like 3 rangers that have high armor vs elemental dmg. Remind you - they have a healer with vengeful weapon, self-heal that is up 1/2 of the time that gives 15 pips of regen, uncapped (30 hp a second).
Oh, and the more enemies, the harder 600 has. The easier, however, A/E and A/Me have. The first one can deal more damage and faster with ele build, while the latter has more wtf damage.
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| Then bye bye 600 runs, bye bye 55 runs.... only VwK will work. |
Abbess
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Originally Posted by MarlinBackna
And gold was a currency because it was chosen to be. What is your point? Saying that I should switch to copper because "gold is standard, so we need to get away from it and make a new standard" isn't going to convince anyone. Change for the sake of change is idiotic. Ectos are a fine currency in a situation that needed an additional currency as trades can only be as high as 100k. The resistance is there because there is no point in changing. Ectos are reasonably stable, and there is a lot on the market that is used solely as currency. ZKeys are about 50/50 split between massive PvPers that are sitting on their stash to see if the price will continue to go up and massive PvPers that blew it all on the chest. ZKeys are being continuously used on the chest, ectos are being continuously used as currency. Why does it need to change? As I said before, change for the sake of it is not a backable argument.
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Abedeus
Uhm. Same as Celestial Sigil can't be a substitute for Ecto, same ZKey can't, Both are accessible to PvP people, not PvE.
Abbess
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Uhm. Same as Celestial Sigil can't be a substitute for Ecto, same ZKey can't, Both are accessible to PvP people, not PvE.
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Lomi79
dont nerf SF or Chaos Plains let us poor people get some ectos so we can buy some weapons...
Pleikki
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Originally Posted by Abbess
How are Zkeys and Celestial Sigs not accessible to PvE? Map travel to Great Temple of Balthazar tell me if you still can't find them.
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Abbess
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Originally Posted by Pleikki
but you cant get those with any PvE rewards so you need PvP for balths faction etc
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Riceboi
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Originally Posted by Lomi79
dont nerf SF or Chaos Plains let us poor people get some ectos so we can buy some weapons...
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Abbess
Overall, I don't deny that SF is a powerful skill and that Chaos plains is putting more ecto on the market. However, neither carry the severity that warrants a nerf.
legacyofkain85
Imo nerf none because,i really want ectos to drop in price even more ,than i could get an fow armor for the same price as an elite armor.It creates a nice and easy farming spot for people with nice rewards in terms of gold(selling the ectos).Altho its quite powerful at farming chaos planes the same farming run could be acomplished before as an a/me ,not as fast as an a/e but it was possible before the sf buff.This is a broken skill but i do not need to remind everyone of ursan blessing or other broken and powerful pve skills
Interesting maybe because people were to dumb to figure out u could solo chaos planes on a terra tank,with a bit of hero help to get passed the aatxes
not really ,btw where did u got the fact that sf is the only build that can farm greens in nm/hm,also u could have farmed greens on a sf way before the buff ,
green farming was available since the green weapons were first introduced in prophecies way before factions,assassins and shadow form came in to play
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Originally Posted by keli
Intresting, i could farm greens before the sf buffs. And ectos were about 5k before sf buff.
So yes, i would hit sf a bit |
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Originally Posted by Dark Paladin X
don't you guys understand, if you nerf SF, then what are going to equip your heroes with, a useless non-max weapon? SF is the only build that has the capacity to farm green weapons in NM/HM (HM particularly).
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green farming was available since the green weapons were first introduced in prophecies way before factions,assassins and shadow form came in to play
Jongo River
It's been a good week in GW, AFAIC. The SF run is fun and FoW armour just became more accessible. If ANet leave it be, the unbalanced profit will deteriorate, along with the price of ectos (which will become just another semi-expensive rare material, as it probably always should have been).
Anyway... 93 ectos and counting... no whinging is going to stop me getting my ranger obby now. MWAHAHA.
Anyway... 93 ectos and counting... no whinging is going to stop me getting my ranger obby now. MWAHAHA.
legacyofkain85
If u want to nerf to the death farming in uw make every mob go /D and give them rending touch,end of uw farming
Abbess
You know what the problem is! The Voice of Grenth is just too friendly! He lets everyone in! I mean honestly! I would never hire him to be a bouncer at a club.
Destiny2097
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| If u want to nerf to the death farming in uw make every mob go /D and give them rending touch,end of uw farming |
Abedeus
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Originally Posted by Abbess
You know what the problem is! The Voice of Grenth is just too friendly! He lets everyone in! I mean honestly! I would never hire him to be a bouncer at a club.
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1. Has to be ascended.
2. Has to pay 1k.
3. Favor has to be in-game... And that's it. So not everyone.
JONO51
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Originally Posted by Abedeus
Uhm. Same as Celestial Sigil can't be a substitute for Ecto, same ZKey can't, Both are accessible to PvP people, not PvE.
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Dark Paladin X
Ok, name ONE solo build other than perma shadow-form that can farm Underworld easily, or farm bosses easily.
None! Because nerfing shadow form will make solo farming UW impossible. And besides, it's fine the way it is.
None! Because nerfing shadow form will make solo farming UW impossible. And besides, it's fine the way it is.
Abedeus
That's exactly why it should be nerfed. It's too easy to farm UW or bosses.
And solo farming uw is NOT impossible. Wasn't impossible and won't be.
And solo farming uw is NOT impossible. Wasn't impossible and won't be.
Jenn
If I had to choose, I would say nerf SF.
I think if aNet decides to nerf, they may choose the route they've gone in the past. By that I mean putting a cap on buffs like they did for armor or movement speed. Stuff doesn't stack higher than 33% or +24 armor unless an individual skill is designed to. Perhaps they will make like a 33% recharge cap (unless otherwise designated by a specific skill)?
I think if aNet decides to nerf, they may choose the route they've gone in the past. By that I mean putting a cap on buffs like they did for armor or movement speed. Stuff doesn't stack higher than 33% or +24 armor unless an individual skill is designed to. Perhaps they will make like a 33% recharge cap (unless otherwise designated by a specific skill)?