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Originally Posted by A11Eur0
I don't code
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Regarding the April 9 Game Update
Zahr Dalsk
Coverticus
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Originally Posted by moriz
GW AI is much simpler than that. from what i've seen, they operate based on a script, with each individual skill usage scripted in. this explains why the AI does not (or at least, DID not) use healing burst properly, because it is (or was) scripted as a point blank heal even after the function change.
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
And I do, and it seems unlikely that changing values such as skill cost, duration, magnitude, recharge, etc, would be particularly difficult.
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Rebel Zero
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Originally Posted by A11Eur0
the game isn't broken. If the game was broken, there would be the same people winning everything every month.
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http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...08/default.php
http://www.guildwars.com/competitive...09/default.php
Krill
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Originally Posted by riktw
programming can be hell, change 1 thing and you can get about 100 bugs.
you find about 50 of them, 2 hours before you release it you find another 30 and the players find the other 20 and exploit them like hell. |
As usual all the PvE players will be foaming at the mouth over tonics, storage, HoM changes, etc. while PvP players are left empty handed. It's just frustrating but I know anet can't please everyone with limited resources.
A11Eur0
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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk
And I do, and it seems unlikely that changing values such as skill cost, duration, magnitude, recharge, etc, would be particularly difficult.
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Unless there are other things in the game that are tied to those values. Maybe just changing values isn't the only thing they have to do. RoJ's values are fine...it's the effect on aggro that's the problem. Changing that might have serious effects on other things.
It's easy to say that you can write code...but how robust is that code? Which major programs have you written or been a part of writing? I'm going to call BS on your so-called coding skills.
What's wrong with warrior's endurance? Wow, energy on hit. That's so overpowered....it just seems to me like if there's a specific meta build that's used more than any other build, there must be something overpowered about it.. Ever try blinding that warrior? Oldest trick in the book.
Highlander Of Alba
Just another little teaser from linsey's journal posted to-day
So what you guys think this could entail for the update ??
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...urdock/Journal
Thursday, April 9th 2009
He's coming...
He's coming...
He's coming...
So what you guys think this could entail for the update ??
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...urdock/Journal
Thursday, April 9th 2009
He's coming...
He's coming...
He's coming...
Still Number One
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Originally Posted by A11Eur0
the game isn't broken. If the game was broken, there would be the same people winning everything every month
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Originally Posted by A11Eur0
there would be a 100% or near-100% rate of completion in speed clear groups. This doesn't happen.
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Originally Posted by A11Eur0
The game isn't broken because there's nothing seriously imbalanced enough to make every strategy that isn't Flavor of the month fail hardcore.
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Originally Posted by A11Eur0
Just because most players go up against a strong build that has more than 2 players running the same elite skill and don't have the ability to counter it, doesn't mean that elite skill is overpowered, it means those players need to learn how to make new builds to counter these new strategies.
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It means that the three basic play styles (split, pressure, and spike) are all viable builds to run. They are all equally as strong and when played correctly give you the chance to win. If I run a split build and split and collapse perfectly throughout the entire game, I should win or put myself in a very good chance to win the game. If I run a pressure build, overtime I should be able to drain your monks energy pools enough to where they can no longer top off bars and I should be able to score kills. Right now all you can really do is play a spike build with tons of defense and 3..2..1 everything. Should spike be killed? no. But it should not be the only viable option to win.
Look at the monthlies (which are really all that matters since ladder is a joke). What has won? Rawr with their rawr spike, Cookies with their Cookie Spike, and KMD with that single warrior spike (they did play other builds but the point is spiking won them the gold cape). The fact of the matter is, spike is all that wins.
This is just recently speaking, split used to win back with assassin split, and even though it is lame should be viable. And DF did win with what is now called "DF Honor Balance", but recently all that wins is Spike builds. This is your sign that the game is extremely imbalanced and needs to be fixed.
Coverticus
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Originally Posted by Highlander Of Alba
....
Thursday, April 9th 2009 He's coming... He's coming... He's coming... |
fowlero
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Originally Posted by A11Eur0
the game isn't broken. If the game was broken, there would be the same people winning everything every month, there would be a 100% or near-100% rate of completion in speed clear groups. This doesn't happen. The game isn't broken because there's nothing seriously imbalanced enough to make every strategy that isn't Flavor of the month fail hardcore.
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Were you talking about GvG/HA/TA in this?
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| What's wrong with warrior's endurance? Wow, energy on hit. That's so overpowered....it just seems to me like if there's a specific meta build that's used more than any other build, there must be something overpowered about it.. Ever try blinding that warrior? Oldest trick in the book. |
Specific meta builds are run the most BECAUSE there's something overpowered about them.
Your point about blinding is one of the reasons its powerful, blinding them doesn't hurt a WE war nearly as much as any adrenaline based warrior because he's running on recharge times/energy not adrenaline buildup. Sure he needs a few hits for energy but it is not nearly as detrimental than to adrenaline based bars.
Apollo Smile
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Originally Posted by arienrhode
I would have taken a token skill update just to fix warrior's endurance (like the Jan update because of holidays). Does that really take any testing? It's just frustrating to have to wait an entire month for something so small.
As usual all the PvE players will be foaming at the mouth over tonics, storage, HoM changes, etc. while PvP players are left empty handed. It's just frustrating but I know anet can't please everyone with limited resources. |
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by Apollo Smile
I see where you are coming from but at the same time, who is to say that there isn't something PVP related in the April update as well? At least wait until AFTER we get it before making such claims.
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A11Eur0
How is it that a team overpowers other teams merely due to skill and wins, all of a sudden their builds are overpowered? What kind of sense does that make? rawr's build obviously isn't so overpowered that they always win, because they lost horribly this past month. KMD's skills were used by other guilds and those guilds didn't win....they didn't even make top 4. Player skill does not an overpowered build make. According to you people, maybe we should handicap the players of those guilds in the spirit of "balance". Give the little guys a chance to win. They have the skill to make builds work. It's not just the build, otherwise you'd have nobodies jumping into the top spots and you'll almost never have the same guilds winning. That's entirely the opposite of what you're saying...the same guilds win because those guilds have the skill, not the "skills".
Now, I won't pretend to know every in and out of GvG. I do know, however, that there are a thousand skills in this game and endless combinations of those skills...there's always a counter to everything. The pure essence of Guild Wars is player skill. There is a point where it goes beyond the skills being imbalanced, to the players' skill being superior.
Now, I won't pretend to know every in and out of GvG. I do know, however, that there are a thousand skills in this game and endless combinations of those skills...there's always a counter to everything. The pure essence of Guild Wars is player skill. There is a point where it goes beyond the skills being imbalanced, to the players' skill being superior.
fowlero
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Originally Posted by A11Eur0
How is it that a team overpowers other teams merely due to skill and wins, all of a sudden their builds are overpowered? What kind of sense does that make? rawr's build obviously isn't so overpowered that they always win, because they lost horribly this past month. KMD's skills were used by other guilds and those guilds didn't win....they didn't even make top 4. Player skill does not an overpowered build make. According to you people, maybe we should handicap the players of those guilds in the spirit of "balance". Give the little guys a chance to win. They have the skill to make builds work. It's not just the build, otherwise you'd have nobodies jumping into the top spots and you'll almost never have the same guilds winning. That's entirely the opposite of what you're saying...the same guilds win because those guilds have the skill, not the "skills".
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No, according to these people the game should be more balanced.
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| Now, I won't pretend to know every in and out of GvG. I do know, however, that there are a thousand skills in this game and endless combinations of those skills...there's always a counter to everything. The pure essence of Guild Wars is player skill. There is a point where it goes beyond the skills being imbalanced, to the players' skill being superior. |
On topic, i'm wondering what happens after this tonic? Are they continuing with new ones? If not i wonder if they'll put all tonics into everlasting drop rotation.
A11Eur0
My point is there are other builds, that when used properly, can win against these builds, and when these same builds are placed into the hands of "lesser beings", they don't dominate nearly as much. To be overpowered, there needs to be a combination of player skill and skill power. You say rawr's spike build is overpowered. They got nerfed. Ok...fine. Why is there still debate? The changes were made, things were fixed. Another team won. Rebel Rising lost, horribly. That's when you stop using rawr as an example why a skill balance is needed THIS MONTH...because it's a ludicrous example. GvG needs to be balanced because rawr has 10 GVG tourney wins under their belt. Never mind that their build was nerfed last month...they need to nerf it this month too! Give me a break.
fowlero
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Originally Posted by A11Eur0
My point is there are other builds, that when used properly, can win against these builds, and when these same builds are placed into the hands of "lesser beings", they don't dominate nearly as much. To be overpowered, there needs to be a combination of player skill and skill power. You say rawr's spike build is overpowered. They got nerfed. Ok...fine. Why is there still debate? The changes were made, things were fixed. Another team won. Rebel Rising lost, horribly. That's when you stop using rawr as an example why a skill balance is needed THIS MONTH...because it's a ludicrous example. GvG needs to be balanced because rawr has 10 GVG tourney wins under their belt. Never mind that their build was nerfed last month...they need to nerf it this month too! Give me a break.
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I just interjected at your reasoning that the game wasn't broken because i disagree strongly.
My reasoning not being rawr winning, but because everytime i've played gvg recently (with teams that have at least some clue what they're doing) you either face nH build or defensive spike. It gets old, and to face it for another month puts a lot of people off because playing/against the nH build just isn't fun, and nor are many positions in defensive spike for some players.
Basically it keeps the game fresh (and fun), and its very very stale at the moment.
Still Number One
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Originally Posted by A11Eur0
My point is there are other builds, that when used properly, can win against these builds, and when these same builds are placed into the hands of "lesser beings", they don't dominate nearly as much. To be overpowered, there needs to be a combination of player skill and skill power. You say rawr's spike build is overpowered. They got nerfed. Ok...fine. Why is there still debate? The changes were made, things were fixed. Another team won. Rebel Rising lost, horribly. That's when you stop using rawr as an example why a skill balance is needed THIS MONTH...because it's a ludicrous example. GvG needs to be balanced because rawr has 10 GVG tourney wins under their belt. Never mind that their build was nerfed last month...they need to nerf it this month too! Give me a break.
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What was rawr's build? It was a spike.
What was the build KMD won with? It was a spike
What was the build Cookies won with? It was a spike.
Do you see a trend yet? What wins games? Spikes.
I don't care which version of an overpowered defensive spike you are running. It is still an overpowered defensive spike. Yes there are over 1000 skills in this game. GUESS WHAT, only about 10% of those skills are viable in high end PvP environments. Does gvg take player skill yes. And rawr arguably has the best 8 man team in the game right now. That is why they won 10 gold capes. They are the best at what they do. And that is run overpowered defensive spikes that take advantage of game mechanics and strategies. The problem arises when there are literally no options to countering them.
You can say run a build that counters them all you want to. But there is not a viable one out there. If you think people have not tried to come up with one you are dumb. And although I doubt you know this, you could throw the excuse that rawr beat rawr spike with nH build. However they won that because in large part to SHAT not running expel hexes on their water mes because they thought rawr would run rawr spike in which you wouldn't need expel hexes against.
The game needs to become more than just defensive spikes. It needs to make split play viable to win a monthly again. It needs to bring back pressure builds. And the best way to do this is to force these spike teams to have to apply more of their skill slots into offense and less into defense so that they can be killed and it isn't who 321's the best. More play styles need to be viable. Why you are trying to argue this point is beyond me. You obviously never have competitively Gvg'd so I don't know why you are trying to lecture someone who has.
![]HM[ Sabre Wolf](/static/static/../Img/avatar102835_2.gif){kind=avatar}
]HM[ Sabre Wolf
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Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm
You seriously think most pvp players are fired up about stoarge and HoM? Either you don't pvp or you're kissing some serious ass, or both.
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Arkantos
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Just because something has a counter doesn't mean the game is balanced, and playing build wars isn't fun. If you have to play build wars just to counter a build, there's a problem. You have your opinion, which is fine, but if you don't understand that there's a problem about the games balance, you clearly don't know much about PvP, or game balance.
lewis91
Thanks for the update, cannot wait for more storage, ive had no space pretty much since ive got the game, and no spaces to create a storage char ¬_¬.
wickedss
I love how pvp'ers are usually the one crying about skill updates or the lack thereof. If you are getting your butt handed to ya, learn to play better or come up with a better build. As far as "build wars" goes, that's kinda the point of pvp...make a better build than the other guy.
@op: Thanks for the info...good or bad, Thanks for the communication.
@op: Thanks for the info...good or bad, Thanks for the communication.
Rebel Zero
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Originally Posted by ]HM[ Sabre Wolf
I do PvX thank you... and I didnt say PvPer's were fired up and ra-ra about the update... but the HoM update effects everyone... how else are you going to post your Gladitor or Commander titles?
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English Warrior
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Originally Posted by wickedss
I love how pvp'ers are usually the one crying about skill updates or the lack thereof. If you are getting your butt handed to ya, learn to play better or come up with a better build. As far as "build wars" goes, that's kinda the point of pvp...make a better build than the other guy.
@op: Thanks for the info...good or bad, Thanks for the communication. |
Still Number One
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Originally Posted by wickedss
I love how pvp'ers are usually the one crying about skill updates or the lack thereof. If you are getting your butt handed to ya, learn to play better or come up with a better build. As far as "build wars" goes, that's kinda the point of pvp...make a better build than the other guy.
@op: Thanks for the info...good or bad, Thanks for the communication. |
Some of the most outspoken people on this issue are not getting their butts handed to them. In fact Mitch from KMD, who just won a gold cape, has been one of the most vocal about this subject. Ensign, who is one of the most knowledgeable players ever and who has won a lot in this game, has pushed and done a lot for skill balancing earlier in this game. Hell even rawr pushes for changes to the game, some of which hurt their play style.
It isn't a bunch of little whining losers wanting the game changed in their favor. It is people who are experienced and knowledgeable in the subject trying to make the game more competitive, alive, and fun.
Build wars is not fun. It never was, it never will be. And as of right now, what beats overpowered spikes? Other over powered spikes. So in order to come up with a counter for an overpowered spike, you create and even more overpowered spike. Where is the balance in this? Where is the option to split, or the option to pressure? there isn't one. That is what we are saying when we want balance. We aren't saying make all 1000 skills the same. Make different play styles usable so that we can run the play style we like most. Not force us to use the same overpowered crap all the time.
Arkantos
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Originally Posted by English Warrior
When you play PvP other than RA and know how big a skill balance is too us then come back and we can talk.
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I don't want to sound harsh, but if you don't actually PvP, or at least know what's going on, you really shouldn't be making comments like the game isn't balanced or you guys just suck, get better. You don't seriously PvP, you don't know what's going on, and you don't know what you're talking about. Of course I can't stop you from voicing your opinions, I'm merely stating that arguing about something you don't know is a waste of time for you, and a laugh for others.
English Warrior
The thing that amazes me is Anet had the time too do April Fools jokes but no time for the serious stuff, especially when this meta in my eyes is one of the shittest ones.
makosi
I don't think there's such a thing as 'skill' in Guild Wars although people will insist on applying the typical Americanist unwritten definition of skill which involves celebrating and magnifying mediocrity and passing it as something greater.
Where I live nobody tells their child that they are beautiful when it clearly looks like a troll; nobody tells you that you can do *anything* if you put your mind to it; and nobody considers a game of rife unfairness, gimmicks and restrictive win conditions an indicator of personal or combined skill. We're dismal and dire people but at least we're keeping it real.
There has always been and always will be flavours of the month and overpowered-ness regardless of what's nerfed or buffed so it's time to accept that the game is unfair and not skill-based, even if the back of the box says otherwise.
Where I live nobody tells their child that they are beautiful when it clearly looks like a troll; nobody tells you that you can do *anything* if you put your mind to it; and nobody considers a game of rife unfairness, gimmicks and restrictive win conditions an indicator of personal or combined skill. We're dismal and dire people but at least we're keeping it real.
There has always been and always will be flavours of the month and overpowered-ness regardless of what's nerfed or buffed so it's time to accept that the game is unfair and not skill-based, even if the back of the box says otherwise.
Achrr The Archer
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Originally Posted by Highlander Of Alba
Just another little teaser from linsey's journal posted to-day
So what you guys think this could entail for the update ?? http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...urdock/Journal Thursday, April 9th 2009 He's coming... He's coming... He's coming... |
English Warrior
You are partially wrong, there is a certain degree of skill to gvg because no random guild will win the mat, a guild who is high in the ladder will because they had the skill over the overs to get there, not build wars, maybe they used OP defensive spike builds but they had skill at them builds.
Still Number One
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Originally Posted by makosi
I don't think there's such a thing as 'skill' in Guild Wars although people will insist on applying the typical Americanist unwritten definition of skill which involves celebrating and magnifying mediocrity and passing it as something greater.
Where I live nobody tells their child that they are beautiful when it clearly looks like a troll; nobody tells you that you can do *anything* if you put your mind to it; and nobody considers a game of rife unfairness, gimmicks and restrictive win conditions an indicator of personal or combined skill. We're dismal and dire people but at least we're keeping it real. There has always been and always will be flavours of the month and overpowered-ness regardless of what's nerfed or buffed so it's time to accept that the game is unfair and not skill-based, even if the back of the box says otherwise. |
The game does take skill to play whether you want to believe it or not. Its just that today's game your lack of skill and mistakes don't matter as much because we have layers upon layers of defense making up for it. Positioning, strategies, and microing have always been a key part of GvG and are all based on how well you can execute them, which is a sign of skill. Making mistakes in this area (besides strategy) just doesnt punish as much as it used to, especially proper positioning.
Apollo Smile
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Originally Posted by Rebel Zero
Um... because all I dream about is posting my meaningless titles in an area no-one but me will ever care to see. Seriously, HoM doesn't matter to anyone inside of PvP. This is why we always laugh at the PvErs that buy into these gold cape guilds. It's not the material items that matter such as titles or capes, because everyone who matters knows your meaningful accomplishments in this game.
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PVP players would be up in arms if only PVE achievements could be recorded in the Hall and potentially unlocking bonus stuff in Guild Wars 2. You are full of shit.
Rebel Zero
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Originally Posted by Apollo Smile
The idiots spamming their deer and tigers in outposts say otherwise.
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English Warrior
Actually i doubt most pvp'ers get a HA rank to go to there HoM and have a orgy over it, so you sir are full of shit, really people need to learn what they are talking about it is funny how the pve'rs are constantly insulting the pvp community.
Still Number One
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Originally Posted by Apollo Smile
The idiots spamming their deer and tigers in outposts say otherwise.
PVP players would be up in arms if only PVE achievements could be recorded in the Hall and potentially unlocking bonus stuff in Guild Wars 2. You are full of shit. |
what the hell is anet going to do for me in guild wars 2 for my glad title? give me 200 free glad points for GW2? woopdie freaking doo. The only thing that would be remotely cool is if I got to have my armor I do now in GW2 just in case the armor in GW2 is terrible. Elite sets of armor are not very hard to get.
Apollo Smile
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Originally Posted by English Warrior
Actually i doubt most pvp'ers get a HA rank to go to there HoM and have a orgy over it, so you sir are full of shit, really people need to learn what they are talking about it is funny how the pve'rs are constantly insulting the pvp community.
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Yichi
Well Regina I commend you on two points that you have both now finally done more than your predecessor did.
First, you informed us that there would be nothing, instead of giving us the usualy bs about well were looking into it, you just come out and flat out tell us that "no this isn't happening." BRAVO!!!!
Secondly, you have finally admitted for your company that PVP in this game doesnt officially mean shit to your company after all, that your focus is entirely on PVE. Try as everyone might, they tried to keep up the illusion that the game was having equal time devoted to both and that both were equally important, and you finally have come right out and said it. I congratulate you.
First, you informed us that there would be nothing, instead of giving us the usualy bs about well were looking into it, you just come out and flat out tell us that "no this isn't happening." BRAVO!!!!
Secondly, you have finally admitted for your company that PVP in this game doesnt officially mean shit to your company after all, that your focus is entirely on PVE. Try as everyone might, they tried to keep up the illusion that the game was having equal time devoted to both and that both were equally important, and you finally have come right out and said it. I congratulate you.
English Warrior
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Originally Posted by Apollo Smile
Try re-reading what I posted. I'm not insulting the PVP "community" i'm noting that they aren't above elitism and using the infamous Hall of Monuments. You know just as well as I do that an update to the HoM affects everyone, not just PVE players.
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Lets say there are 2 babies, if Baby 1 gets a dummy baby 1 is happy but then baby 2 will want a dummy but if he doesn't get a dummy it is unfair and he will be upset and complain about it.
Simple.
English Warrior
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Originally Posted by Yichi
Well Regina I commend you on two points that you have both now finally done more than your predecessor did.
First, you informed us that there would be nothing, instead of giving us the usualy bs about well were looking into it, you just come out and flat out tell us that "no this isn't happening." BRAVO!!!! Secondly, you have finally admitted for your company that PVP in this game doesnt officially mean shit to your company after all, that your focus is entirely on PVE. Try as everyone might, they tried to keep up the illusion that the game was having equal time devoted to both and that both were equally important, and you finally have come right out and said it. I congratulate you. |
Sorry for double post.
Regulus X
No skill balance = increased gaming/interest 'stagnancy'
Storage is great! But, it by no means does it circulate our interest. We miss having underused skills get changed around so they're not so underused. We all know that GW2 is top-priority, but it's in Arenanet's best interest to retain our captivation up until the release of ya'lls next 'Big Hit'.
Just thought I'd throw that out there..
Storage is great! But, it by no means does it circulate our interest. We miss having underused skills get changed around so they're not so underused. We all know that GW2 is top-priority, but it's in Arenanet's best interest to retain our captivation up until the release of ya'lls next 'Big Hit'.
Just thought I'd throw that out there..
Still Number One
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Originally Posted by Apollo Smile
You know just as well as I do that an update to the HoM affects everyone, not just PVE players.
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No it only affect PvE players because PvP players do not care whether or not they have a giant tower to display their accomplishments in. Their peers know who is good and who is bad, and that is all we care about. We don't need nor want recognition from a floating statue to tell us we are doing something good. playing the game, beating your opponent and then saying gg is all the satisfaction we need.
Grj
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Originally Posted by English Warrior
When you play PvP other than RA and know how big a skill balance is too us then come back and we can talk.
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