I guess the rule on buying/selling gold for real currency is just a guideline too, eh? It's explicitly stated in that notice box on the login page, so it must be guidelines.
¬_¬
yeah...
Henchman Skill Bar Contest Winners!
Premium Unleaded
Mangione
oh, cool
I had some of the winning bars saved as templates.
I wonder why I didn't submit them (or any of the others I took from PvX), and instead spent two afternoons trying to put togheter some nice working builds (ORIGINAL, not taken from PvX) for NPCs that could actually have some use in PvP.
Here it seems that bars were choosen not thinking about their really effectiveness regarding AI and PvP.
On the issue of originality, before submitting my entries I checked if they were already on PvX. One of the bars I came up with had 5 skills that were in another PvX build, and so I decided to scrap it and create another one. All to avoid breaking the "originality" rule.
I wouldn't be here writing this post if some other ORIGINAL build was choosen instead of mine, nor I would have something to complain about.
But this is not the case. Anet is rewarding people who (intentionally or unintentionally) broke the contest rules. WTF?
^^^^this.
Thank you Anet,
next contest I will save my time.
I had some of the winning bars saved as templates.
I wonder why I didn't submit them (or any of the others I took from PvX), and instead spent two afternoons trying to put togheter some nice working builds (ORIGINAL, not taken from PvX) for NPCs that could actually have some use in PvP.
Here it seems that bars were choosen not thinking about their really effectiveness regarding AI and PvP.
On the issue of originality, before submitting my entries I checked if they were already on PvX. One of the bars I came up with had 5 skills that were in another PvX build, and so I decided to scrap it and create another one. All to avoid breaking the "originality" rule.
I wouldn't be here writing this post if some other ORIGINAL build was choosen instead of mine, nor I would have something to complain about.
But this is not the case. Anet is rewarding people who (intentionally or unintentionally) broke the contest rules. WTF?
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Originally Posted by Killed u man
Every time I'll log on to GW, I'll see the names of "cheaters" -I'm really sorry for the winners, but it's true, tough not your fault- on a prestige spot (You'll be in EVERY district) taunting me, pretty much saying: "You played by the rules, and therefor lost the competition".
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Thank you Anet,
next contest I will save my time.
Jensy
So like...
I'm really really really curious what people submitted that they find original these days. Can we get more of those posted here?
Doesn't count if it's posted at pvx or in use in the game at all. Nobody can be using it in GvG or HA right now at all. Remember you can search though builds there, and don't forget the archived or testing ones.
Would help as well if people who play in these formats chimed in about the effectiveness of said bars vs current meta.
I'm really really really curious what people submitted that they find original these days. Can we get more of those posted here?
Would help as well if people who play in these formats chimed in about the effectiveness of said bars vs current meta.
Shasgaliel
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Originally Posted by Inde
Fril, the response to this contest has been pretty universal in the negative. I don't care what 'community' you are looking at. As I stated earlier, I was glad to see that ArenaNet is continuing to reach out to us by doing community involved events. Yes, this one had a poor outcome but I certainly hope that it won't deter them from doing more. I thought the concept of the contest was indeed a good one, and while it's hard to know the perception and the end result, I'm sure that ArenaNet has noted the criticism. I still appreciate the outreach though.
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Killed u man
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Originally Posted by pansy malfoy
So like...
I'm really really really curious what people submitted that they find original these days. Can we get more of those posted here? Would help as well if people who play in these formats chimed in about the effectiveness of said bars vs current meta. |
BUT
The difference between a Double dragon ele, and a SH ele is huge. On top of that, again, most bars posted don't even work on heroes, and thus one can truly assume they simply wiki'd their build, rather then trial and error.
This still doesn't change the fact that most bars are in meta right now, or have been. There still is a huge difference between a Hammer warrior (sucky as it is) and a thumper. RaO should NEVER have won. But that's just one of the many examples.
In reply to people saying that "every build is a wiki build", yes. But some non-mainstream builds should have been given priority over mainstream ones.
Bobby2
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Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk
@Joe Kimmes: I can not even "rest assured" that ANet sticks to THEIR OWN SET OF RULES!!, because of ANets and/or the LiveTeams incompetence.
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Originally Posted by Joe Kimmes
But yes, we're definitely taking a careful look at the various bars to make sure they're used at least moderately competently by the AI, and there will probably be a number of tweaks/improvements made.
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This contest has been blemished with lies from the start.
Robster Lobster
The skill required to use Frenzy well isn't about cancelling it when you're taking lots of damage, I have no doubt that a henchman can be very easily programmed to do that. The skill is in switching between frenzy and rush to maximise damage, and good players know when they are able to stay in Frenzy while taking damage if it gives them a strong chance of making a kill. I can imagine henchmen will have similar problems with flail.
http://gwshack.us/0a290
These aren't very original, but here are a couple of bars that (while maybe not currently optimised for AI use) are very idiot proof, and could easily be effective despite being controlled by AI. I didn't submit these builds as I figured warriors would see the most submissions which would reduce my chances of winning, but given the results I very much doubt they'd have won. I can't remember the exact builds that I did submit, but they basically follow the same principles as those two bars: very simple, with a decent level of effectiveness. I can give more examples if people want.
Borat, I'd be interested to see the builds that you submitted if you don't mind.
http://gwshack.us/0a290
These aren't very original, but here are a couple of bars that (while maybe not currently optimised for AI use) are very idiot proof, and could easily be effective despite being controlled by AI. I didn't submit these builds as I figured warriors would see the most submissions which would reduce my chances of winning, but given the results I very much doubt they'd have won. I can't remember the exact builds that I did submit, but they basically follow the same principles as those two bars: very simple, with a decent level of effectiveness. I can give more examples if people want.
Borat, I'd be interested to see the builds that you submitted if you don't mind.
tealspikes
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Originally Posted by pansy malfoy
So like...
Can we get more of those posted here? |
a bit stereotypical of their profession, but I ddnt see them on wiki so I submitted
Hellscream The Evil
here you are one of mine's. Put it on pvx or call it a crap if you want it doesn't matter now...
the "sinergy" is 1+2
p.s. a bot and ONLY a bot can run efficiently this bar, as the contest says... -.-
the "sinergy" is 1+2
p.s. a bot and ONLY a bot can run efficiently this bar, as the contest says... -.-
Killed u man
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Originally Posted by Robster Lobster
Borat, I'd be interested to see the builds that you submitted if you don't mind.
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(But that can easily be tweaked)Here are my bars: (I alrdy posted them before)
(15 Fire so he caps out at 20)
http://gwshack.us/1c229
I forgot my third build, but it was some gimmicky hex necro I think, he used Power Leech as an elite. (It's a pretty sick, non meta bar)
I didn't post any skill bars for GvG, as I could not figure out ANY non-degenerative bar for a Hero that would be usefull in multiple situation. Upon reflecting, I should have posted some paragons bars, as they are the ONLY build a hero could run but then again, they break the rules again, so ye...
Desert Rose
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Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk
I strongly suggest that they sack the whole contest, do not give out the prizes to people that don`t deserve them. Breaking the rules should never result in getting rewarded.
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And ANet are following thier own rules by prompt to sign a certification that the winners created the builds themselves in order to received their prices.
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Originally Posted by Killed u man
On top of that, some actually forgot that "player bars" don't always work on heroes, and therefore is proof that these submittions comes from VERY unexperienced people.
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Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra
AI: It's possible that the Henchman AI will be updated to utitlize winning builds effectively, but it all depends on whether the design team feels this is appropriate. When submitting your bars for the contest, you shouldn't necessarily feel limited by the current AI.
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One of the main flaws in this contest is that ANet didn't make the general conditions, rules and goals clear for the community.
Some informations only appered in Reginas Journal, mistakable informations were posted (Martin Kerstein: "Common gimmick builds are not very likely to be picked").
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Originally Posted by Mangione
Here it seems that bars were choosen not thinking about their really effectiveness regarding AI and PvP.
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JR
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Originally Posted by Desert Rose
Or they simply stopped by Reginas Journal every day:
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Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by JR
There are skills that no amount of AI tweaking is going to ever fix, because they take real judgment and awareness to use. Frenzy, Infuse, Shock... prime examples of the many skills on the winning bars that fall into that category.
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So, let's see what we get. I'm sure it'll be terrible and lulzy to watch henchmen infuse themselves to death or get exploded while using PR, but whatcha going to do? It's their own fault.....yet again.....it affects the players.
Fril Estelin
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Originally Posted by JR
There are skills that no amount of AI tweaking is going to ever fix, because they take real judgment and awareness to use. Frenzy, Infuse, Shock... prime examples of the many skills on the winning bars that fall into that category.
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I think, as many PvPers, you're thinking about these skills with the highly-skilled use that only humans can do, whereas the programmers don't see it that way. Any program can be beaten, you simply have to make it "good enough", which depends on player skills I guess. So for a lot of players it may be "challenging", for the good players it'll always be easy after a certain point. Yet I imagine that if henchmen kick in whenever there's a dc, it could improve many PvP games.
turbo234
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Originally Posted by JR
There are skills that no amount of AI tweaking is going to ever fix, because they take real judgment and awareness to use. Frenzy, Infuse, Shock... prime examples of the many skills on the winning bars that fall into that category.
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i don't recall exactly what builds i submitted but i do remember using some less used elites such as boon signet and life sheath, both used pretty effectively.
what i'm thinking now though is, if they do work on the AI, would the infuse be insane at catching spikes? i mean their reflexes are already off the charts
FrostymcPewPew
The problem with this whole "we will improve the AI so they use these bars well" is, if they learn to use Ward Against Foes, Grasping, Song, Make Haste and all the other skills which require a certain player input well, what would have been the point of the contest? Now instead of heroes that can easily replace other people, we get henchmen that do the exact same.
It really isn't getting to the issue is it, you know, the PERSON vs PERSON issue.
PS: I hope they do not pull as "oh shit everybody is mad lets just not respond and hope everyone forgets" since that has been done before (see Izzy), and it has happened so many times they, if they don't respond post haste I think we can all say they either don't know what to respond with, or they are genuinely scared to respond, since we are all savages (and pro ones at that).
It really isn't getting to the issue is it, you know, the PERSON vs PERSON issue.
PS: I hope they do not pull as "oh shit everybody is mad lets just not respond and hope everyone forgets" since that has been done before (see Izzy), and it has happened so many times they, if they don't respond post haste I think we can all say they either don't know what to respond with, or they are genuinely scared to respond, since we are all savages (and pro ones at that).
Motoko
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Originally Posted by Killed u man
Every time I'll log on to GW, I'll see the names of "cheaters" -I'm really sorry for the winners, but it's true, tough not your fault- on a prestige spot (You'll be in EVERY district) taunting me, pretty much saying: "You played by the rules, and therefor lost the competition".
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Karate Jesus
Here's Regina's latest response on GWW:
Btw, here's the link for those of you that'd like to talk to Reggie in person: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedback_talk:Regina_Buenaobra#The_Henchmen_Contes t
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Originally Posted by Regina
Guys, the official rules state: "Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source. ''Your submission must not infringe on any patent, copyright, trademark or other intellectual property right, or any privacy, publicity or publishing rights of any third party, or be libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to law.'' This means that entries should be original to the extent that they do not violate another person's copyright or trademark. The skills used in Guild Wars are owned by ArenaNet, the sponsors of this contest. Using those skills and putting them into particular combinations is not violating a third party's rights. That is what's meant by "originality". |
Inde
I can't be the only one who knew that mentioning original/copyright/3rd party as part of the contest rules and guidelines meant exactly what Regina stated. You can't "own" a build. Goes back to my first post on just common sense that there are no original builds.
While I understand people's frustration on copy+paste and on submitted builds not being part of the meta... what Regina stated is factual. I didn't find the contest rules misleading so this would come down to perception and interpretation on the part of the user. Which no, ArenaNet can't be responsible for the majority of the time. You'd be amazed how a single sentence can be taken so many different ways. What the official rules stated was pretty typical legal jargon.
And please don't make posts calling out the community to "tear something apart" and encourage flaming.
While I understand people's frustration on copy+paste and on submitted builds not being part of the meta... what Regina stated is factual. I didn't find the contest rules misleading so this would come down to perception and interpretation on the part of the user. Which no, ArenaNet can't be responsible for the majority of the time. You'd be amazed how a single sentence can be taken so many different ways. What the official rules stated was pretty typical legal jargon.
And please don't make posts calling out the community to "tear something apart" and encourage flaming.
![]HM[ Sabre Wolf](/static/static/../Img/avatar102835_2.gif){kind=avatar}
]HM[ Sabre Wolf
Regina does have a point... The skills and the pictures and all are the properity of ANET... so any combonation of the skills combined would be a property of theirs. So the Third Party site would be PvX which has promissions from ANET to use the skills... In essence, since ANET own the skills, they own the rights to the builds which are made up of said skills. So no matter what can be said if the builds were taken from PvX, Gamependium or Team Builder... ANET still owns the rights to the skills used... so no infringement is actually possiable in the end.
Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by Inde
I can't be the only one who knew that mentioning original/copyright/3rd party as part of the contest rules and guidelines meant exactly what Regina stated. You can't "own" a build. Goes back to my first post on just common sense that there are no original builds.
While I understand people's frustration on copy+paste and on submitted builds not being part of the meta... what Regina stated is factual. I didn't find the contest rules misleading so this would come down to perception and interpretation on the part of the user. Which no, ArenaNet can't be responsible for the majority of the time. You'd be amazed how a single sentence can be taken so many different ways. What the official rules stated was pretty typical legal jargon. And please don't make posts calling out the community to "tear something apart" and encourage flaming. |
If I'm misinterpreting what they said, please feel free to explain to me how I'm getting this wrong. I'll happily quote Martin's comments here again about originally and staying away from "niche meta builds" if necessary.
EDIT: And obviously no one had any claim to copyright infringement. Anet owns the skills. I was just more surprised that she is claiming that that's what they meant by "originality", which is obviously false. How could we have possibly used "original" skills that don't exist inside GW?
Pheenix Down
"Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source."
And yet hundreds of people, some who are PvE'ers, suddenly happen to come up with the exact same skillbars, skill for skill.
How can you not see the rule being broken here?
And yet hundreds of people, some who are PvE'ers, suddenly happen to come up with the exact same skillbars, skill for skill.
How can you not see the rule being broken here?
]HM[ Sabre Wolf
no rule was broken... ANET owns all the skills which means they own all the builds... its up to all of us to come up with the combonations.
as for the rule breaking for me personally... I felt that we were suppose to submit off-meta builds... not the current meta builds...
as for the rule breaking for me personally... I felt that we were suppose to submit off-meta builds... not the current meta builds...
El Presidente
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Originally Posted by Regina
Guys, the official rules state: "Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source. Your submission must not infringe on any patent, copyright, trademark or other intellectual property right, or any privacy, publicity or publishing rights of any third party, or be libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to law."
This means that entries should be original to the extent that they do not violate another person's copyright or trademark. The skills used in Guild Wars are owned by ArenaNet, the sponsors of this contest. Using those skills and putting them into particular combinations is not violating a third party's rights. That is what's meant by "originality". --Regina Buenaobra 20:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC) |
The bold part is where you screwed up in the rules. Any first year law student can rip your explanation on "originality" to pieces. "...any other source" includes PvXwiki, whether or not Anet "owns" the skills or gave PxXwiki permission to use those. It is still from another source!
If I take a line from a famous author and claim it to be mine, it's plagiarism. If I take the same line and change one word, it's still not original. It was original as the idea (as a whole) of the author, not me.
Plagiarism, as defined in the 1995 Random House Compact Unabridged Dictionary, is the "use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work."
Copy/paste of a build and changing one skill...well, any reasonable person can see it's plagiarism (meaning, not original). Now, add in Martin's statement to the above and you'll see your flawed explanation, Regina. A copy/pasted build/skill bar from PvXwiki therefore negates any win due to it "taken from another source". Follow?
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Originally Posted by Inde
You'd be amazed how a single sentence can be taken so many different ways. What the official rules stated was pretty typical legal jargon.
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snaek
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Originally Posted by regina buenaobra
This means that entries should be original to the extent that they do not violate another person's copyright or trademark. The skills used in Guild Wars are owned by ArenaNet, the sponsors of this contest. Using those skills and putting them into particular combinations is not violating a third party's rights. That is what's meant by "originality".
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but for real though... this rule makes absolutely no sense. it is 100% impossible to submit a "non-original" build (according to your definition) thereby rendering this rule pointless (hire better writers?). so one can only assume you are meant to fully create your own build, i.e. not copy-n-paste build comes from pvxwiki. i'll admit that some people are going overboard with the pvxwiki copying, but it is pretty clear that a few entries are a result of this, i.e. the mindblast bar.
regardless of what "official rules" are, the guidelines given were that originality was going to be considered, and meta builds were likely to be discarded. so whether or not it is against the rules (i don't care either way), the build selections were horrible.
personally i don't care if the winners still get their prizes even if most don't "deserve" it--simply rename this "contest of skill" to a "lottery of luck" (although i think scrapping it entirely would be ideal). just please fix the henchie problem... and no, ai tweaking is not good enough. tbh, i think anet is scared to change the skillbars because then the people who won didn't really win with their skillbar (thus pissing off more people)...but it has to be done. that or remove heroes+henchies all together.
Pheenix Down
Doesn't matter if Anet owns all the skills or combinations of all the skills since you had to follow the rules of the contest.
And their rules explicitly state: "Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source."
And yet, hundreds of people, some who are PvE'ers, suddenly happen to come up with the exact same skillbars, skill for skill.
Then explain the discrepancy between these two facts.
And their rules explicitly state: "Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source."
And yet, hundreds of people, some who are PvE'ers, suddenly happen to come up with the exact same skillbars, skill for skill.
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Originally Posted by ]HM[ Sabre Wolf
no rule was broken...
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Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by snaek
damn... you mean i can't submit my awesome wow retribution paladin build? i was really hoping to win with that.
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Damn.
Wait.....how the hell could "original" mean "not using skills that aren't in GW". There seems to be some.....line there that got crossed.
Martin Firestorm
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Originally Posted by El Presidente
Regina, you certainly are no lawyer...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by El Presidente
The bold part is where you screwed up in the rules. Any first year law student can rip your explanation on "originality" to pieces. "...any other source" includes PvXwiki, whether or not Anet "owns" the skills or gave PxXwiki permission to use those. It is still from another source!...
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Originally Posted by El Presidente
Yes, and legal jargon can be interpreted 100 different ways by 100 different lawyers. It's why we have the Supreme Court for the final say (well, in most cases).
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Draikin
I don't think there's any point in arguing semantics and debate about what the rules actually meant, that's not going to get us anywhere. The main problem here is that Anet led people to believe that they weren't going to pick the popular meta builds. I certainly understand people's frustration when they see RaO thumpers, assassins with a Jagged Strike -> Fox Fangs -> Death Blossom combo and Elementalist skill bars with 5 AoE attacks winning the contest, especially when very few of the builds are actually optimized for AI use.
El Presidente
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Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm
Anet is the court here: its their contest, their skills, their virtual world. Anet IS the law in GW.
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Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm
The supreme court, huh? Perhaps you are taking this a bit too seriously. Or maybe you should file your writ application now. Surely one of them would want to hear argument on this novel issue, given the important national implications and all.
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Kisuro
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Guys, the official rules state: "Entries must be the submission of the contestant and cannot be taken from any other source. Your submission must not infringe on any patent, copyright, trademark or other intellectual property right, or any privacy, publicity or publishing rights of any third party, or be libelous, obscene or otherwise contrary to law." This means that entries should be original to the extent that they do not violate another person's copyright or trademark. The skills used in Guild Wars are owned by ArenaNet, the sponsors of this contest. Using those skills and putting them into particular combinations is not violating a third party's rights. That is what's meant by "originality" |
[/sarcasm]
Are you serious? You really mean to tell us that the originality rule was there only to enforce the fact that we need to use only skills that are in GW and nothing else? Congratulations, youmay have just found the lamest excuse ever.
Fril Estelin
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Originally Posted by El Presidente
Copy/paste of a build and changing one skill...well, any reasonable person can see it's plagiarism (meaning, not original). Now, add in Martin's statement to the above and you'll see your flawed explanation, Regina. A copy/pasted build/skill bar from PvXwiki therefore negates any win due to it "taken from another source". Follow?
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In my job as university lecturer, I came accross several cases of plagiarism where reasonable doubt was enough for the case to be dismissed at the early stage of the enquiry, despite my professional opinion giving me the confidence that the students did indeed plagiarise (although depending on the exact definition of term, certain clauses can be difficult to meet, see for example requiring to prove "intention" to plagiarise). And contrarily to this contest, these were very real and significant cases. So don't blow it out of proportion please.
JR
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
If Joe Kimmes said that they'd work on Infuse and look at Frenzy if necessary, there may be things possible. He even said "[AI is] one of the easier things to tweak" and "Compared to a lot of things in the game, skill AI is often easy to update". Sure, players do see the results of this code every single day and many know the limits better than programmers.
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
I think, as many PvPers, you're thinking about these skills with the highly-skilled use that only humans can do, whereas the programmers don't see it that way. Any program can be beaten, you simply have to make it "good enough", which depends on player skills I guess. So for a lot of players it may be "challenging", for the good players it'll always be easy after a certain point. Yet I imagine that if henchmen kick in whenever there's a dc, it could improve many PvP games.
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Kashrlyyk
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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus
Here's Regina's latest response on GWW:
Btw, here's the link for those of you that'd like to talk to Reggie in person: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedback_talk:Regina_Buenaobra#The_Henchmen_Contes t |
Pheenix Down
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
How can you prove that the people that submitted the builds explicitly copied PvX? What about the fact that the current meta implies that many people know builds without knowing where they come from? What about people actually coming up with these builds on their own without knowing PvX? However imaginary and improbable these situations are, they are the ones that Anet can't argue against. Hence, they have to accept the signature of the contestants as saying that they obeyed the rules, which Anet interprets to be enough for the intent and purposes of this contest.
In my job as university lecturer, I came accross several cases of plagiarism where reasonable doubt was enough for the case to be dismissed at the early stage of the enquiry. And contrarily to this contest, these were very real and significant cases. So don't blow it out of proportion please. |
Many of us took the time to not only make our builds original, but viable in terms of AI usage. To belittle the time and effort we exerted in our endeavours does little justice to your role as a mentoring status.
Fril Estelin
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Originally Posted by JR
You've strung together some mighty fine words, but I have absolutely no idea what your point is.
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El Presidente
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
How can you prove that the people that submitted the builds explicitly copied PvX?
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How much more closer do you want some of the builds to be than off by one skill?
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
despite my professional opinion giving me the confidence that the students did indeed plagiarise
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
Hence, they have to accept the signature of the contestants as saying that they obeyed the rules, which Anet interprets to be enough for the intent and purposes of this contest.
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Karate Jesus
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Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk
Love your reaction to Regina`s post on the wiki. All the questions from all the other users are great too.
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)
Martin Firestorm
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Originally Posted by El Presidente
Uh, not quite. Their contest is bound by the laws of the states and countries to which it was offered to players. It's one of the reasons they offered it to only select states/countries... Read what they'd have to do to let those in Quebec participate, as one example, and you'll see why Anet opted out.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by El Presidente
If you even followed what I replied to, it was in reference to the prior "legal jargon" comment, meaning ~ even a lower court's opinion/interpretation is subject to reversal...all the way to the Supreme Court.
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JR
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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
In simple words: AI may be difficult enough for a player with "average" skill; you're not of average skill, thus complain about this AI, which is fine for most players. Better now?
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It's a fair point, but I'd like Anet to aim higher.