Shadow Form meets the end

Thats like saying "I want to be a searing flames ele, but I only have a ranger. Anet should make searing flames available to all players so I dont have to make an ele. It's way to much work to level another character".

I'm baffled at your lack of reading comprehension (or bad trolling). He said nothing about wanting to play any certain build.

You know, that has always been Anet's intention of Guild Wars with it's no-monthly-fee model. Pick it up when you feel like playing, and put it down as soon as you are bored and happily play another game. Only to return when you want to (whether this is from a new update, new campaign or expansion is up to the player).

However, because people aren't leaving the game when they are bored, and Anet isn't making (much) new content for GW, people are getting jaded about playing Guild Wars.

But, Guild Wars will still be there after you and your boyfriend have been playing another MMO for a few months/years.

I dont think you understood what that was in response to. as he was commenting on a comment i made on a comment he made about how "Everyone should be able to run SF".

QFT. You completely took the words out of my mouth.

Can you link to that? The post I saw stated nothing of the kind. He was advancing an entirely different argument: that SF was rendering other classes useless.

My two cents.

I used to hate the dreaded shadow form, but reading the countless arguments for and against, well I see that a whole bunch of people would be hacked off. I don't have a problem with farmers or speedclears - how others choose to play is their business.

My main and only real problem is with shadow form in the underworld. For a pug or balanced team, you still really need a tank to hold off a side (or two even better) for the four horsemen quest. Sure there's alternatives to a perma, but they ensure that the quest can be done - without one it pretty much comes down to fluke whether it's passed or not.

Every single other area in the game I have done, all elites areas, dungeons with my main character (mesmer), however underworld has only been completed with a team consisting of permas and I had to pay.

I say instead of the whole broken shadowform debate going back and foward, change the four horsemen (and souls maybe) quests to make them a bit more possible for a team without a perma (or other invinci tank ie 600, ob flesh etc) to complete with good teamwork.

Every other area in the game can be done on hardmode without a perma (600 etc). It's dissapointing that the new dhuum stuff is barely seen (even after pugs spend 3-4 hours trying), except by mainly perma teams.

Why are you still playing man? Why do you stay here if you're in it only for pointless reward? Is your life so boring that repeating the same boring task for nothing worthwhile is more interesting than the outside world?
Ok, Sorry I quit that tone.

You know, the origina idea was that people would start PvP or leave (YES: LEAVE) untill the next expansion. where they would come back because the game was just better than other game they have.

The game is much more rewarding than the original (just look at the books : money, title point, and faction in Luxon/Kurzick case). And if the reward aren't worth the time and "boredom" of getting them, the time to move on has come for you. Actually as soon as the term "boredom" fit you should ty to leave, even if the rewards are worth it. You used the word yourself, it's a game.

This would only be true if Searing Flames was way more effective than any other damage skill.

It's not; SF is shit in HM PvE because high armour makes elemental damage worthless.

I dont know if you people, who want shadow form nerfed are just noobs that cant do it and constantly get called "noob mt, noob t1, noob t2, or any other that involves shadow form mantaining. So therefore why do you care so much if it gets nerfed or it doesnt? u are not forced to do this, and you do not have to be involved in what other people think its fun and enjoy. This will not be good for the guild wars economy. WHY? because rich people, will now be even richer, while poor people, will have more trouble getting some money in...so do you guys who want shadow form nerfed make any sence at all? NO... you just follow what people say when you get called a noob. Just work it out, and i dont understand why anet is making this drama out of shadow form just like they did with ursan. If you put a skill in...dont mess it up, why? sins fail in PvE, simple as that, alot of people worked hard to get their sins nice, and ready. Alot of people also bought Obsidian Armor on them because they will sit in game farming. Therefore now, when SF gets nerfed "once again"...what will people do with these "farm characters" ? will Anet give you the money back u spend on them?? NO...they will just ruin the game even more and even more people will stop playing, and forget about GW 2. Just because of some cranky babies here, they will get rid of the only fun for most people. Face it, PvE is boring as hell, and then they even felt the need to take away Hero Battles and add some crap that noone plays like Codex Arena. Anet is just messing up this game, and thats not only my opinion, its most peoples opinion that know what they do, play this on daily basis and actually still enjoy some stuff. (HB,Ursan,SF farming). what they did to underworld is a cool update, nothing against it, but why not just keep it that way and feel the need to mess up shadow form completly?? I would like an answer to this, not by you people that QQ about shadow form EVERY single day just because you cant use it.
Therefore i will be waiting for a answer, and you people just get over this, and do what YOU want, and let people just do what THEY want.If you dont like shadow form...whydo u care if other people use it and do like it? stop crying and grow up. This is a game, and its here to enjoy, and if anet just feels the need to get rid of what people still enjoy, go for it,im just saying, not alot of people will be looking forward to keep playing this and buy GW 2 in 2011.

Thanks, and GL.

1. Shadow Form is ridiculously easy. None of us would have any difficulty doing it. Shit, you could have a macro take care of playing Shadow Form, that's how bloody easy it is.
2. Paragraphs man, I only read your first sentence.

Shadow Form is easy, but for some reason some people aka "noobs" cant handle it and drop it ALL the time. Therefore one of them is probally you who cant do it and get into groups to be called "noobs". By saying this, messing up Shadow Form is making rich people richer and poor people poorer, just like that, thats all that will happen. So...think about it again

I'm getting really sick and tired of this argument. First, I have a SF sin and I've never had a problem with an area as long as I pratice a few times. Second, invincibility with a high dps output is broken, and if you can't see that then don't bother responding to me.

The poor people will not get any poorer; high-end items will become more expensive and people will have to use other builds aside from shadow form. Ectos will not spike because people can still farm the UW (while avoiding skeleton spawns.) People are going to have to work more if they want shinies. Skeletons were added to stop SF, but they've only gimped balanced teams. IT HAS BECOME A PROBLEM TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T USE SF.

I was only using Searing flames as an example sorry I should have said, EVERYONE HAS THE ABILITY TO MAKE A CHARACTER OF ANY CLASS (well, unless you don't have factions and nightfall). If you want to use a certain build that requires a certain class, make a new character.

If you hate shadow form, or love it it doesn't matter. Not having a sin and thinking that its not fair that sins can run shadow form and you cant is not a valid argument against it. There are lots of reasons people hate shadow form but this is just a very lame excuse. We might as well just have one class with one build that everyone runs (to make the game fair!).

Anyways... I've come to the conclusion that these forums are nothing but bickering. so I'm done posting. good luck with the battle guys. may the best team win *kisses*

I've cut the quote a bit to avoid the pain of reading throught it.

First off , to quote Zahr: "Paragraphs man"

Second, if they farmed and used their ecto on an alt and a farming character. They just prooved that the farming is not too hard and that they liked their character by buying it. If they like their character, they should not delete it if SF falls.

Third, to quote Zahr: "Paragraphs man"

Forth, If PvE is boring, why do you still play.

Fifth, know that the next line has nothing against you personnally, I just need to vent off some steam:
Are you so freaking dumb that you have a problem thinking that, in a MULTIPLAYER game, where your POWER level versus the OTHER'S POWER level matters, where a certain degree BALANCE is important, having the second BEST DAMAGE DEALER also have the ONLY PERFECT GODMODE in the game AND being able to be invincible and dealing a lot of damage at the SAME TIME! is fair game???????????
Seriously, are you a F-ing moron or just plain old self-centered? Or both?

SOrry, as I said, it's nothign against you personnally.

I am unconcerned. And lest you think I'm being glib, I'm probably one of the people you'd consider "poorer."

Because the thing is... you don't need the highest-end stuff to play the game. Armour and weapons scale very well with gameplay. You don't require Obsidian armour and a Destroyer weapon against a level eight Charr. By the time you actually need better gear to progress, the game will have given you a crafter to make it and opportunity to make enough gold to pay for it. Prestige stuff is just that... prestige. If you want it, you can save for it, but it's not a necessity to complete or (for most of us) to enjoy the game.

Nothing that could be done to Shadow Form will have any effect on the drops given by the monsters Anakita Snakecharm fights. If I want something more bling, I will earn it or win it myself.

It's not like people are going to starve to death if prestige items cost more. It's not like you can't play the game without big-ticket purchases from other players. If you really want the expensive stuff, it will still be worth saving up.

To Kain Fz it was sugested in an ironic way that sf increase damage. The idea was that the melee perma has low damage. Yes I play hm and I didn't really saw a party that didn't had any rit and eles, a party that will actually play as a party should do (no permas, with monks that heal/protect, think you got the idea of what type of party i'm talking).

To reaper with no name

Well you forgot some knockdown mob skills that mobs have (this passes sf if u don't bring an antiknock down skill and you don't have many options if you don't use any consumable to bring a skill that will always prevent the knockdown during the sf chain). Rits can have one spirit of the same type if that spirit will die before he can recast it. The other rit job is to cast that spirit in case the other rit can't cast it cause it's in cooldown. I prefer to have a backup. And why not to be able to do that area with people that are far for being pro? Well why not increasing the number of mobs that have skills that passes sf. It's an indirect nerf.

To the others.

Now let's see why eles and rit are way better at doing damage.
A sin that is blinded becomes completly useless. Fighting a group of mobs that likes to blind is a problem. If they are melees you have solutions. You can say make build for each area. What's the % of players that do that? If you will know all the skills for all the mobs in an area in your mind that I'm wondering one thing, I will not say what you will have to figure it out. You know that pro and fun and one point don't work at all. At what helps you if you are a pro gw player in real life? Based on the failing team with random peoples I see around those days that % is low, cause I can't be so unlucky. You want examples: uw in nm with me as perma, team without any melee and surprise the necro was using order of pain very "good" skill when there is no melee (i forgot i should had daggered the mobs to death) and this is not all that team had a pro monk that was using protective spirit on me when the skele were using the skills that passes sf.
Let's look at the sos rit. Is actually the sin doing more damage then the sos rit? Why a few weeks ago I decide to farm the items for traveler with my e/rt sos and not with the sin? Maybe cause the sin was doing less damage, maybe cause the mobs that were there were necros?
Why the ele is better? His attack is ranged. U can say take a shadow step skill and use it. Well at what will help that if you will jump in the middle of the mobs and you will end up dead.
Both ele and rit can do damage without exposing to much.

Here is what I don't get it. Why people are against sf sins? If they have factions they can make a sin and use it. You can say some peopel don't have factions, I will say some people that have factions don't have eotn.

You said sin is good. Ok. I want to see a team setup do to foundry in hm that will use sin as the main damage dealer that will actually do it. To make it more chalenging the sin must not die at all and this team setup should work with random people too. No SF of course.

You said no god mod for sins. Ok. Now I will move to monk. What's the main bussines of a monk? Isn't it to keep the party alive? Well then why the monk should be able to be the main killer in the 600/famine/smiter team?!?

Now how long it takes for a dagger sliver perma to solo topk? Remove sliver from that build and make a build that is not allow to use sliver. He will be able to do it and if yes how long it will take? Now make a build that uses only GoS to maintain SF and the rest are only sin skills. He will be able to do it and if yes how long it will take?

SF as temporar invulnerability but imposible to maintan. Ok. How will you use this elite skill? In witch situations? To fast kills some mobs? What you will do? SF, shadow step in the middle of the mobs kill what you can in a couple of seconds then you will be returned to your orginal location. Any class can do that now. How many classes can use this? Will other classes be more efective using this?

Maybe for a pro guild with a large number of members it will not be a problem to make a party to clear any area. But not all the guilds/alliance are big. Maybe you don't have people to do the party and you go with random people. Well the % of doing a quest were i actually need peoples with random peoples is under 10%.

When you do a mistake you have to options you fix it fast or you don't fix it at all. Why? If you fix it fast not many people will take advantage of this. Why not fixing at all? Cause people already took advantage of this and it will just not be fair for new players or players that didn't made a sin.

They can nerf SF. But we will see what will happen with the prices. And we will see what will happen with the gold/items seller sites. Maybe I am wrong but the prices of items will skyrock and the gold/items seller sites will have more customers for the simple reason that it will just be easier to buy from them and not get the items by yourself.

The only thing that will happen if they nerf SF on my sin will be me going back to my other chars. The sin was made for farming and nothing else.

Anyway there is already a nerf for SF: lag.

Let's see what I did in UW in a party with random peoples:
- with one party we made it up to dhumm, we failed there, i was dagger spammer sin (not perma) and there was noone to pb me
- 1 time made 7 quests, me infuser ele
- 1 time made 6 quest, me infuser ele
- 30+ failures at 3th quest me as infuser ele, perma sin, dagger spammer sin, monk

When I was the perma for the balanced team the team didn't failed because of me they failed cause they were not able to kill 5 or under mobs. If 7 people can't kill 5 mobs then...

Any human players that is playing for fun will farm only to get items and money to make items for him, his heroes, his friends. Now let's see another thing. To get to lvl 20 in GW it's easy. Why it's should not be easy to make inagame money or toget items (of any type) too? If people can easy farm they will not buy gold/items from gold/items site seller cause they will have no reason to do it. Easy farming protects a game from being invaded by gold/items seller sites. I can bet that if all the classes will be able to solo farm easy noone will say nerf sf.

I came to GW from a game invade by cheaters. I was getting tired of seeing cheater everywhere in that game and seeing that noone wanted a legit player. You know why they were cheating? Cause playing by hand would had taken 2 years to be max level with good gears, i said good gears not max out gear. Cheating you would had done that in 2 months. Also this game (the game i came to GW from) was invaded by gold/items seller sites. And people were buying from them cause it was easier. Based on this I'm saying that making things hard will just generate a bigger problem.

Regarding using other weapons and not daggers. Well I played in Jade Quary as e/mo acting as a monk. First off all the entire party was thinking that because i'm an ele i should be damage and expected me to go kill. The other party started to laugh that I'm a noob and to say that if I want to heal why I'm not making a monk. Think I said enough. I was so noob that they took the quarry i was defending only when the score was 8-3 for our team and they did it cause my team left me there alone and they were 3 and I was only with the ranger defender.

Why I have the feeling that there will still be sf perma after the changes they will make.

In a 1vs1 fight between a sin and an warrior who should win? Better said the sin should actually take any hit?
In real life in a fight between a ninja and a warrior who is winning?

(Someone said if I heared about tanker. Well is actually warrior the best tanker in the game? How about the ele tanker?)

The ninja strikes fast and usual you will not know who hit you cause you will be dead before you realise. If the sin is the replica of the ninja and he looks like the replica of the sin then god mod is one way to replicate this, another way is to make the sin being able to be always invisible and becone visible only when he hits you and trust me you will not want a perma invisible (he will become visible when he hits you and recast instantly invisibility).

You can say i'm crying if SF will be nerfed? I will ask only this what are you then if I'm the one crying about the fact that SF will be nerfed?

Nerf SF and you will see what % will have the parties with random people getting to dhuum.

Well making an area take too long or to hard to do it will make that area not player friendly. And when you will want to do it with random people you will hardly find 8 people and that party will probably fail (try to make a foundry party with random peoples and see how long it will take it and how many people will leave cause they can't wait more (people have other problems too and this game is not their live) or cause they got tired of waiting). It will become an area that is done only time for the statue an nothing more (see what's happening with Mallyx quest).

Probably I can say other things but I already wrote to much. To avoid any trolling or other things like this I will stop posting in this topic even if I have other things to say.

After I will see the changes they will do in case I think something will affect the game in a negative way I will try to warn them about this. This is all i can do. Until then everything is pure speculation.

What's the easiest idea on making people move to gw2? Nerf the fast farming ways in GW and allow fast farming ways in GW2.

Lets be real here,

Those complaining about SF

A. Suck and can't do it
B. Too lazy to make a sin
C. Just like to QQ
D. All of the above

Honestly if you dont like SF DONT PLAY IT! And if you have a perma and still want it nerfed ur either a liar or you suck at it.

Keep SF, if you dont use it then dont use it. QQ over a video game with an imaginary economy moar plz

That imaginary economy effects players who're simply playing to have fun, too. The, "If you don't like it, don't do it" comeback is a weak defense for an obvious problem.

Not a problem for me. Im simply playing to have fun as well...although there is nothing to do in this game so farming uw/fow is all thats left for fun. Face it, GW is a video game with an imaginary economy. If ur unhappy go play call of duty

You forgot one.

E. The players who lose money in power trading because SF makes it easier for players to get items themselves.

Farming builds can be a boon and a bane. It's all great when a few are prospering off a gimmick build, but once the prices start to drop when a build goes public. Well hold on, let's get out the nerf bat.

No one has still answered why doing an elite area with a speed clear hurts them in real life. It doesn't. It just sounds like sour grapes. As I said before, I was in a guild that used to do FoW armor runs in between 30 to 45 minutes way back when before SF and speed clears. I was and still am proud of it. Just because an SF group can clear ALL of FoW in that time or less now means nothing to me. It doesn't detract from what I did in the least to me. It seems that's not the case with other players.

Here's another news flash boys. In real life, girls aren't interested in the size of your e-peen. And you can't pay for a date with ecto. There really are more important things in life to be worrying about.

"No one has still answered why doing an elite area with a speed clear hurts them in real life."

lmao best thing posted yet.

When i came back to gw it was fowsc/uwsc. All i had was a necro,war,monk,ranger. What did i do? Learn mop/vale, 100b, UA, EoE. Then a few days ago i make a perma and now do t1/t2/mob/mt. Even before perma i had a way to participate in elite areas easily and made lots of $$. Idk bout anyone else but now that i have a perma i say - perma is FUN.

I dont care what anyone else says that to me is fun. Doing T1 is the most fun ive had in this game since the old tombs.

Yes, lets.

Can't press 123 or even 12? Wow, you lil' farmers really think you're doing something complicated and difficult, eh?
It takes about 10 clicks to make a sin. Try harder, especially if you're the one who wanted to be real.
Damn, you're so cool and original.
Oh, and clever.
HONESTLY, THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH SIG OF GHOSTY MIGHT. YOU COULD JUST NOT USE IT!!
Yeah, there's no possibility that some people make profit by perma SFing but still see how broken it is.

I can see you QQing a lot. "BAWWW YOU WANT TO NERF SF BCUZ U SUKK AT IT, LEAVE HER ALONE, LEAVE SF ALONE".
If this is how you "get real" then I pity you.

No one EVER has still answered how good ol' Sig of Ghostly Might hurt them in real life.
Revert the bug AN, you've got the greenlight from the "special" people.

GW is a game, everything is imaginary.
Good thinking. "A certain aspect of this game displeases me, I'm going to quit forever and go play a completely unrelated game."
No one has still answered why nerfing a skill that allows elite areas to be speed cleared hurts them in real life.

GW is a game, NOTHING about it should affect your real life.
Good advice. But, "e-peen lust" (lol) can be used against either side of the argument.

I'll go ahead and sink to your level by making my own list of generalizations.

Those defending SF

A. Suck and can't play the game without a 1 > 2 > 3 combo for permanent invincibility
B. Too lazy to actually play the game, make money legitimately, or develop skills/knowledge necessary to be good at the game
C. Just like to QQ
D. All of the above

Some other options include: Want to "increase their e-peen" by grinding high end areas, don't actually like the game anymore but still just do SCs for loot, and hate balance. But, I didn't include those options in the list for the sake of parallelism.

By the way, I insta-hate anyone that says "QQ" (not that any of you care about my opinion of you). But, saying QQ is often just a way of saying "you're pointing out an aspect of the game that you don't like and I disagree with you and I ran out of reasons against your complaint so I'm going to make it seem like you're whining and make myself look like an idiot at the same time."

Hey, the anti-SF people use the same argument whenever we brought the point up that UW (and all end game area) balanced is boring, frustrating, and not worth the reward....so its all game that we use the same illogical argument.

Like this post..."if you don't like it, leave" can solve everything, right?

No one has still answered why doing an elite area with a speed clear helps them in real life either.

Those complaining about looming SF nerf and complaints

A. Suck and can't do without it.
B. Too lazy to actually play game.
C. Just like to QQbash
D. All of the above

Cheap bad arguments are cheap and bad :-)

While the "real life" argument is stupid beyond belief (because if you want to develop it further, the guys at A.Net could be looking for a cure for cancer or HIV or helping with environmental issues or hunger or ... but instead they are making VIDEO GAMES!), one could argue that speed clears will help you waste less time in a game leaving you with more time for other things.
Still, this is as relevant as asking a person how would they rather die - by a lethal injection or a shot to the head. While one is slightly less sucktastic - the end result is that you are dead in both cases.
And this argument is stupid for both sides.

You know, they actually could do it, just make GW client install [email protected] client too ( http://folding.stanford.edu/ ).

If that would hit ~ 50k people, it would increase project output by at least 20%.

Speed clears hurt me in real life.

They give me a headache.

Hahaha i knew some random guy will come to defend SF with some nonsense stuff like this "No one has still answered why doing an elite area with a speed clear hurts them in real life" .
IN REAL LIFE ! lol CHECK it , since when the reason to balance 1 skill is that "it hurts ppl in real life" ? omg this is better than Paramount Comedy. Seriously ppl , use your brain , check the thread title . This is not a discussion to come to a solution , that "solution" is done ..... even thou not implemented yet but its coming and theres nothing that your farmer QQing can do here . Instead of showing your fear with non sense comments or arguments in favor of SF please leave the game as YOU ALL said you would do ( or happen ) if SF gets nerfed/reworked.
Im having a Deja vu with the UB nerf ....

PS: Still laughing about those who think that abusing SF requires SOME SKILL or brain cell use .

all the people saying " omg press 1 2 3 "

im gonna invite you onto a guild run in DoA, lets see how you do.

deal? pm me.

you're gonna be tanking btw. screenshots will be taken and posted here on "how easy it is to press 1 2 3"

They hurt me in real life too, because I'm locked away in a smelly dank dungeon deep below the ANet offices, with electrodes fixed to my testicles that shoot 50,000 volts into me whenever someone pops the underworld chest.

Ummm in a word: NO! )

Nah. Would you normally clear the UW in 3 hours with a 'balanced team', and in 1 hour with a SF team, people would just make 3 runs for additional shots at the endchest. Effectively wasting the same amount of real-life time.

Now include all of the time spent forming a "balanced" pug, all the D/Cs, and wipes....3 hours increases to 6 hours or more. With speed clears, my limit to repeating is only about 3 hours. I do have a life you know....therefore "balanced" is worthless to me (and probably most players not on forums).

QQ is pointless - nerf has been announced - time to put on the man pants and get over it.

Lets face it, this topic is now only about self interest. If you use SF a lot you lament the impending inevitable demise out of self interest. It you use it little or not at all you cheer for "game balance" with a maybe small or maybe large side portion of self interest.

It won't be all that long till there will be a new PVE meta. I rejoice in that. I think that PVE gets stale because there is less rotation of balance than you get in PvP. I would be happy to see regular balances, shifting meta builds and to play guild wars never sure which of my 10 classes was going to get to play on the next run.

In that respect, the bear, and now SF were allowed to rule the meta for too long. That is why most of the QQ exists. No change for so long leads to an expectation that people have a right to see the status quo maintained. Lets hope that they don't let the next meta rule for as long as the last 2.

Jesus Christ, is all of this discussion still going on?

Who knows? For some convoluted reason, most people have in their mind that GW is a game and that game are meant to have fun. Well there's also that they seem to think boring and frustrating are antithesis to fun. God knows where they got that from! Geez people are weird.


OH Hai! welcome back Tyla!
Yeah A couple of eternity later, Sf is still QQ-ed about. History repeats itself or so they say.

TANK N SPANK.
People like this really understand how GW works.

it's been a long time since i've read anything as stupid. casters out damaging assassins in hardmode? yeah right. way to post a wall of text full of nonsense.