Next Skill Balance

Merry X'mas Regina & my fellow GW players.

The nerf is just an evolution of the game - embrace the changes and ABUSE the thing that we can abuse while we still can!

I'm spending my X'mas as a perma Sin. Again, have a safe and merry X'mas to all.

Scary line you're walkin'...

So how do you suggest Intensity, Withdraw Hexes, Shatter Storm, and others are buffed to match SF?

Intensity - Maintained enchantment, whenever you would deal damage, you deal 1000 instead.

Shatter Storm - When cast, every enemy of the same type in the instance dies. 5e, 1c, 30r (it's balanced since it has a long recharge)

Withdraw Hexes - When cast, all hexes on all enemies in the instance are disabled indefinitely.

tl;dr stop acting dumb and you won't have this problem. You haven't proven anything, I haven't proven that I'm "neutral" because it's not my job- it's yours to disprove it, that's how things work, kid
And you still want people to write walls of text on the same subject?
Talk about wasting time.
Again, no one's going to repeat what's obvious for the nth time just because you're oblivious. There's lots of clueless people like you. Get over it.
Hey, how about this. Think before posting an "argument". And if you can just replace "600/smite" with "SF" and vice versa that means the argument is shit, okay?

Oooh, and here I thought pve might be about challenge.

Ah, I see Captain Arrogance is off winding the troops up again

While I have no issues with Shadow Form being left as is or being nerfed into oblivion (which I hope ANet don't decide on the 'ol Smiters Boon approach here), I am a touch concerned that 600ing will also be hit. Holy Wrath/Retribution seems the most likely to me (therefore not breaking other builds/play styles) but considering this is not technically a solo farmer, its a shame ANet may be going after this.

And as for the "balanced/challenge" aspect of PvE - sorry, but there is too much to remedy in PvE (from a skills perspective) for balanced and challenge to become apt again. SF and 600 nerfing will start the ball rolling yes but much more would need to be done to make PvE something tougher and not such a cake walk it is currently.

First i would like to say Merry X-mas to all of Anet and to everyone still playing GW.

I dont really play the game anymore. But after the next skill update i might get back into it. I always loved playing 600/smite. Most of the time i played with hero smiter but for the harder areas i went with the (real deal) smiter..lol
here are some of the areas i know should not be done with 600/smite. so i can understand why a-net is looking to make some changes to it.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2qjgnpw.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/24l1x8k.jpg

Almost 90 million xp on my monk from doing crazy farming. I think it's time they put a stop to the 600/smite. so i'm excited for the nerfs. Lets me tinker with some new builds

A perma is able to run most of the FoW quests in a matter of minutes. Thank you for proving that SF indeed needs to be nerfed. If you would've gone with just 600/smite, it would've taken you at least twice as long to complete FoW, assuming you're able to complete all quests.

So your argument boils down to SF is faster than other builds which can do the same thing?

So the problem is not the skill itself but the efficiency with which it does its job?

I've been reading the other threads, there's much more ambivalence about 600/Smite than there is SF, even though its fact that a 600/Smite team (or player +1 hero) can do many more areas, completely and with more safety.

What that means is that people just don't like Sins for some reason, and I personally believe its simple jealousy. SF replaced all the pet builds, boo hoo wah wah.

You know what people were told in DoA when they couldn't get into groups as a Mesmer or Ranger or Rit? "Go roll a War/Ele/Mo." So you know what, to all those SF haters, go roll a Sin.

Its funny too, the hypocrisy. EVERYONE has access to the same characters classes and skills as everyone else, so technically speaking the gameplay experience IS balanced for all players, since EVERYONE can take part in the Meta of the Month.

What the argument is really about is people don't want their pet classes marginalized, they're jealous of the Sins efficacy, and probably too lazy to try and learn a new class, which is the exact OPPOSITE of what long time Sin players are, who did have to roll new characters to access high end areas.

A single Perma is NOT able to run the FoW in a matter of minutes. It takes a full party and from what I've seen on average at least 30 minutes, not accounting for rezzes for lag and such. I wish people like you would stop spreading disinformation to belabor a losing argument.

A FoW SC Can go from 15 mins with a very experienced party run up to 30 mins with a randomly regular pug, The consets also last 30 minutes so you only have 30 mins to do that. Most of my runs take 25 mins so I don't think SF should be nerfed.

I agree with Gun Pierson that if people find 600/smite fun then I dont see the problem as balance doesn't mean jack shit in pve, lets be fair.

Not at all. I was simply countering Funeral Rites, because he claims 600/smite is overpowered based on his FoW run with a Perma. If you're familiar with FowSC, you'd know where I was going with this.

Ironic statement is ironic. Do I need to explain?

"You haven't proven anything, I haven't proven that I'm "neutral" because it's not my job- it's yours to disprove it that's how things work."
I've proven that your arguments that support your supposed neutrality are false. I don't need to prove anything else. You're constantly going on about this "being neutral". You are clearly missing the point here. The point is that you should be posting your own arguments in a discussion, instead of posting mindless opinions and making fun of stuff, which is what you have been doing all along, this is not how a discussion works. However this is in fact a discussion thread, and. I'm going to say it plain and simple for you to understand: Arguments or gtfo.

"kid"
cool story bro

"And you still want people to write walls of text on the same subject?
Talk about wasting time. Again, no one's going to repeat what's obvious for the nth time just because you're oblivious. There's lots of clueless people like you. Get over it."
I'm sorry to hear that you are not taking into account my contribution to this thread, only because of the volume of it. Whether you're unwilling or incapable to read them, doesn't really matter. It makes you equally stubborn. In the end, I did this for the best of you, to show you how you can have your own strong arguments supporting your opinions, so people will take you seriously. Sadly, it seems that this Christmas good deed of mine has been a bridge too far. At this point, it seems that it would take a miracle to have you understand reason and logic.

"Hey, how about this. Think before posting an "argument". And if you can just replace "600/smite" with "SF" and vice versa that means the argument is shit, okay?
Oooh, and here I thought pve might be about challenge."
I don't know who you quoted here, but it certainly wasn't me, because I never said those things.

Either way, it seems that we hit a dead end here. You're not saying anything new and meaningful and you're not picking up on any of the points I've been trying to make clear to you either. If you want to continue this conversation, I suggest we do it over PM to not bother any of the other forum users. If you have any further questions or insults, feel free to send me a personal message.

Merry Christmas.

If you provide no argument to support your opinion, it makes the reader think either you have no idea what you're talking about or you don't even have any support.

As for 600 being fun...

Okay, some people might find it legitimately entertaining to 600. Most people are only entertained by the vast amount of loot they can gather in little time and with little effort.

Just because it needs one more player (which can be played by a hero) than a perma and is a bit less mindless than a perma, doesn't mean it's balanced. And yes, 600ing is harder to do than perma, but saying it takes skill is an overstatement.

Generally speaking, GW PvP is good. GW PvE is bad. That's why ^

If I wasn't so lazy, I would go dig up all your posts complaining about how an SF nerf would cause the exclusion of certain classes. Looks like you're actually perfectly fine with class-discrimination, as long as it doesn't affect your pet class.

I find it quite pathetic.

SF is going to be nerfed. How are you winning the argument?

EDIT:

Don't worry, I stopped being lazy.

A hypocrite calling another a hypocrite is the epitome of hypocrisy.

i can't wait till discord gets nuked.... i hate those damn necro heroes, it's why no one PUG's anymore... shame SF can't just be changed to a form like the dervish avatar skills... YAY! tactics is coming back! and although hammer will be buffed, axe is still under-rated

Who cares about SF? Just bring back the Griffons.

Whoever gave you the idea that Disco is getting hit?

Yes and in 2005-2006 it took 4hours to clear fow with exprienced team. and there was no end chest to go for..

I think SF needs nerf

I'm sorry Black that it needs to come to this as we were side by side argumenting for 7 heroes for like months. But to be fair you can also replace ''600/smite'' with ''7 heroes'' there, even 2 players with 3 heroes each.

I do SoO HM Speed clears with 6 heroes and my second account so every 35-40 minutes I have two chances for a BDS and without cons. I don't even need 6 heroes, just a friend who brings his 3 heroes too. It's a 'balanced' team with a few different classes in it, even a dervish wtf. So what now, nerf balanced?

For skillfull players, it doesn't matter if you nerf as they will still get 10 times as much gold as a 'normal' player, the only thing you take away is part of the fun.

Nerf everything, give each class one skill that does 50 damage and there will still be people who make 10 times as fast money than others. Dull game btw.

Challenge in a game where the Ai has always fixed patrols and builds? Where you can take cons etc. The old days with Thunderheadkeep gave me a little the feeling of challenge, but those days are long gone and we were all 'noobs'. The game changed, players became better (at least the vets).

For PvE to become challenged again, it needs a massive overhaul, which will not happen as they don't have the recources and GW2 is on the way. So no point in screwing around with the player base in the game's final phase.

ah yes...merry x-mas all.

Try to do Foundry of Failed Creations in HM with Heroes (if it works post the build ).

I can give you the builds for NM without cons, but I cant do HM with heroes that's why I go 600/smite/famine then. You see, the circle is complete

Foundry is one of the hardest places in the game, mainly because you have to be lucky with the spaws and the rooms limit your movement for tactical setup. Even the all powerfull ursan teams with 3 HB monks got smashed in room 3 if the spaws were bad. So foundry is clearly the extreme exception at the other end of the spectrum.

LOL! Well first you missed the point. My calling for haters to roll a Sin was meant to expose the hypocrisy of the dominant side, i.e. the War/Ele/Mo group. You're always going to have some builds be stronger than others, if the only solution by those IN power is to conform to their wishes, then the Meta would never change.

Hence WHY I am not against a Shadowform nerf, which if you hadn't quoted my posts out of context to make your point would show quite clearly. I have said in MANY posts that I wouldn't mind a nerf if done for the right reason, and with compensating buffs or area changes that would make the whole need for Meta builds anachronistic in the first place!

But I guess that doesn't fit into your tiny world view, does it?

Winning the argument on this forum and having ANet carry through on their nerf batting are two separate things. Even if every single person on this forum somehow reached agreement with one side or the other, it would have no real bearing on what ANet plans to do or does. I and others can totally dominate the argument with logic and reason (as we have) but that doesn't mean it will change anything.

So yes, I realize the futility of arguing on the Internet, but I can't stand hypocrites and people who shout off their mouths when they have no idea what they're talking about. Funny really.

Especially when you quote out of context to make an incorrect argument true. Which invalidates it altogether. I am too lazy to go back over 20+ pages of posts in multiple threads just to prove to one person they're wrong, especially when this forum has proved that even when someone IS proven to be wrong, massive hordes of sycophants will swarm to their cause anyways, based on preconceived ntions and opinions with no basis n fact.

I suppose in trying to prove me wrong, you of course missed the whole issue at hand, that of the game world being out of whack which allows powerful builds to arise.

If the areas were re-designed with randomization, or at least mob variants (placement, size and composition, possibly three or four different skillsets, etc.) it wouldn't MATTER if each class had invincibuilds because they'd be lucky at best to get an area spawn that couldn't defeat a one-trick pony build.
My oher assertion is that the unused classes should be buffed up to Meta-level, rather than nerfing Meta-level classes back to the unused bin. If any of you had more than the memory of a puppy, you'd remember the class discrimination against Sins everywhere due to their poor design, much like the reputation that Dervishes and Mesmers have in PvE.

This game and GW2 will suffer if the prevailing idea of the community and ANet is to only have a few core classes be used everywhere, if that's the case, why even make all that other content?

It's fine if skillful players get 10 times as much gold as normal players; what we're talking about here is stopping speed clear players from getting 10 times as much gold as normal players, because a speed clear, in the sense of Shadow Form assassins (rather than, say, a good team that plays through quickly) does not involve skill.

That's funny because I find it takes way less skill to just play your role in a team of 8 than to play 600 in UW or Foundry HM.

Also, stopping speed clears can be done in several ways. Nerfing skills is the easy way out with lots of collateral damage as side effect.

Okay, if this:
wasn't meant to be taken seriously, I apologize. But, it was a misread, not me intentionally taking you out of context.
That would be great if Anet had the ability to implement it. Fingers crossed for this in GW2.
If every class was as horribly balanced as assassins, the game would be in an even worse state than it already is. And, if meta-level classes are nerfed to the level of non-meta classes, all classes are on a level playing field and balancedway sees a comeback (if done correctly). A worse fix than the randomization of mobs, but this is actually within Anet's reach.
That was before PvE skills like Critical Agility, which negates the biggest downside of a sin and is found on the bar of any non-perma.
Playing in an 8-man team in Foundry is harder than 600ing foundry. Why do you think people give up on 8-man teams and pay for runs instead?

DoA as a whole is one of the hardest because Anet failed in the design. over powered unbalanced mobs ment gimic builds to beat it. until Ursan, if you werent a monk,warrior,ele or necro you may as well not even entered the area and even then if you were one of those, it you werent willing to run a specific build the you couldnt get in a party. Anet created the need to run perma SF or the 600/smite due to the poor makeup of the enemy mobs. short of a complete redesign of the mob makeup in most areas there will always be a need for a gimic build to beat the harder areas.

Lies. Doa can be done balanced, you certainly need to abuse cons and PVE skills but it can be done. I even got a screen shot to prove it, of course it took a while but it was our first time. Is it really that hard to think outside of the box?

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3184/doahmheroes.jpg

Why do you think Ursan was popular? because pug players and solo adventurers could get in. Now they need to pay a runner.

A good guild team can still steamroll the place as before. If you've ever taken part in such a team, you know that it takes less skill/effort for the individual, because the sum of experience and skill by all players in the team outnumbers a pug by a hundred times sorta speak. They're that good that it takes less effort and energy for me to play in such a team as HB/UA monk versus when I play 600 foundry.

Give me a PM or post it public and link it, I really need it and some other people I know too.

As we all know DoA iis extremely empty (apart form some farmers or traders) and with exception of the City pretty hard.
After the 600/Perma nerf maybe there will be more pressure on ANet to rebalance DoA and especially Foundry.

I took the liberty to fix your statement for you.

yes.. a good guild team means they probably have moar skillz?.. duh?

I could spend half an hour looking through hundreds of screenshots to find some proof that I ran a balanced with Glob of Ectospasm and completed all 4 areas of DoA (not Mallyx - we were tired and it was late) with consumables and NO WIPEOUTS.

The difference being that was what the area was designed to be completed by: a full team of combatants. It being easy is a different and bigger problem in itself.

While I find it unlikely as well (but feel that every step taken towards it is a good one) it's at least interesting seeing ANet discuss changing these things regardless. It could be to prepare players what to expect for GW2, hopefully meaning to not expect such broken ways to play the game.

Agreed. IF you know the place and enemies well, it can be done in HM, with a fairly balanced team.

Still prefer physway though .

Yeah and It takes like a hour aswell now with a regular pug so who cares ?

thats my point, do it balanced, no comsumables and no PvE skills. before consumables and PvE skills, how many people can say they did it balanced. all i remember was u needed to be a W/E tank or an Ele to tank. for an so called elite area, those things shouldnt be needed to complete it if designed right.

Also...when did Tank N' Spank become balanced. Maybe I am far off track...but judging by that screenshot, there is a tank(W/P), the Mo/Me is probably a bonder, the two Rt/Mo are probably healer/SoS hybrids, and the para is SY!....and the rest are probably a mish mash of characters with DPS skills.

IMO that is NOT "balanced" (Yeah, I know that the definition isn't clear), it is still unavoidable to have a tank (hey why don't you switch the W/P with a non-shadowform assassin or dervish?), and a stack of prot/heal. Just because you have a random assortment of classes for the rest doesn't really make it balanced, because in pugs and less casual guilds that R/W, Me/E, and N/Me would be replaced by the single best DPS option.

But hey...if I totally guessed your team build wrong, feel free to clarify. ("Balanced" can't be that extraordinary that you must hide all skills can it?)

glass arrowzzzzzzzz

well well what a great thng.... MANY PLAYERS WILL LEAVE GW AFTER SF NERFED!
WHY ? WHAT S THE REASON ? IN THIS YEARS YOU HAD NERFED ALL YOU COULD...AND THIS IS REALLY BORING, WE RE TIRED. BYE BYE ANET

Vaya con dios